DarthDemens Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 on a PVE server yes it is not a major problem.. On any server, its not a major problem. Unless of course, your entire playstyle revolves around trading kills on Ilum.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) On any server, its not a major problem. Unless of course, your entire playstyle revolves around trading kills on Ilum.... ^^This. Obviously BW thinks a very small portion of their overall player population is far more important than the vast majority of other players. Just more proof that BW hasn't got the slightest clue how to run an MMO and has their priorities totally skewed and Bassackwards. ~Saitada Edited February 9, 2012 by Saitada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimfae Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 1) They have to update all the servers. 2) "small bugfixes" generally need days to be actually fixed and tested. A lot of the time something small might get away despite the testing and then you need to release a new patch to fix that. People complaining about patches adding bugs have not worked as programmers so they do not know complicated bugfixes are. Which is completely understandable. Actually he is closer to correct then you are. I work at a game company, I happen to be the lead dev on our deployment system. And we deploy to hundreds of servers. The only downtime we have is the time it takes to download the new client, the servers are never down. The game industry as a whole is several years behind. Most of the latest and greatest methods for this stuff comes from places like facebook, google, and amazon, who deploy at scales that make mmo's look like childs play. Those guys have more data centers then bioware has servers. The ONLY difference between patching an mmo and patching most anything else is syncing the client. Server side, it's really all the same when it comes to how you patch servers, there are only so many ways to do it. For example, a lot of places will run two copies of the game software on each server. They push out changes to one, do last minute testing, and then just switch their load balancers over to the newly updated copy, which makes for an almost instant update across even thousands of servers. There are several reasons why game companies don't use methods like this. Most of the engines they use don't support it. Game engines usually focus on the client side, and are pretty good there. The server side is usually pretty bad. You absolutely have to support some technologies like cloud database architectures to make instant updates work well, but most games still use sql databases. And lastly, another reason is that game studios are mainly focused on getting a game people like to play. If they nail, that, people will put up with downtimes. If they don't nail that, then all the rest doesn't matter. So game companies are reluctant to invest heavily in architecture. So anyways, my main point is that no, there is no technical reason why games have to have downtime. Lots of companies with equally complex applications that run at much larger scale can update their systems in real time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Actually he is closer to correct then you are. I work at a game company, I happen to be the lead dev on our deployment system. And we deploy to hundreds of servers. The only downtime we have is the time it takes to download the new client, the servers are never down. The game industry as a whole is several years behind. Most of the latest and greatest methods for this stuff comes from places like facebook, google, and amazon, who deploy at scales that make mmo's look like childs play. Those guys have more data centers then bioware has servers. The ONLY difference between patching an mmo and patching most anything else is syncing the client. Server side, it's really all the same when it comes to how you patch servers, there are only so many ways to do it. For example, a lot of places will run two copies of the game software on each server. They push out changes to one, do last minute testing, and then just switch their load balancers over to the newly updated copy, which makes for an almost instant update across even thousands of servers. There are several reasons why game companies don't use methods like this. Most of the engines they use don't support it. Game engines usually focus on the client side, and are pretty good there. The server side is usually pretty bad. You absolutely have to support some technologies like cloud database architectures to make instant updates work well, but most games still use sql databases. And lastly, another reason is that game studios are mainly focused on getting a game people like to play. If they nail, that, people will put up with downtimes. If they don't nail that, then all the rest doesn't matter. So game companies are reluctant to invest heavily in architecture. So anyways, my main point is that no, there is no technical reason why games have to have downtime. Lots of companies with equally complex applications that run at much larger scale can update their systems in real time. Please stop arguing with actual experience to back up your statements, it confuses the biodrones. They just don't know how to respond to reality biting their closely held beliefs in the backside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawfox Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I was gonna pwn the galaxy tonight, but I took a patch in the knee lawl .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucasomega Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Wow, people are still on here arguing this out when the servers were only down for about an hour? Not to mention, they've been back up for well over an hour now... Go get your dallies done foo! Edited February 9, 2012 by lucasomega Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wow, people are still on here arguing this out when the servers were only down for about an hour? Not to mention, they've been back up for well over an hour now... Go get your dallies done foo! Yeah, sorry... I have more fun on the forums than I have in the game. Thanks, but I'll stay here and troll. ~S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDemens Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wow, people are still on here arguing this out when the servers were only down for about an hour? Not to mention, they've been back up for well over an hour now... Go get your dallies done foo! They're done. Some of us don't wait until right before they reset to do them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dj_Ziio Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) I work nights and find that the patching falls during my available play time. Though I find this annoying, complaining rarely fixes an issue, so instead I will put forth an idea. A "swing" schedule for server updates. As many servers are already labeled east or west coast, base the server patch times to reflect normal game time in these areas, as well as having a different swing time for Oceanic and European guild servers (as of now those playing in Hawaii see servers go down at 10pm), so that the server downtime more accurately portrays when the server is least used, not just a set time that falls within the early morning for people in the Midwest. Edited February 9, 2012 by Dj_Ziio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyperKill Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I do not mean to be rude, but is this a serious comment? No I was not being serious on that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drksidejunkie Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 People have every right to be upset. There is patching - we all know it and hate to love it. Patches bring us joy and sorrow - usually in equal measure, and every day a patch goes live we all sit there with sweaty palms hoping and praying our favorite class didn't fall under the axe. However, what people are complaining about is the quite well established fact, that Bioware seems to do a poor job at testing it's content before releasing it. Do they need more people testing it on the test server? Do they need more in house paid testers? Something else? Who can say - it's not like we are ever going to get an answer out of them. It would be nice however if they would actually come out and say "Hey, we need your help! - if you put in the time testing the patches - we will in turn help you out with some free game time." I know loads of people that would jump at that chance. Of course, the tricky bit is always getting the company to actually LISTEN to their testers. Perhaps that is where the problem is currently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthaes Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I just read patch notes. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. really a patch for illium pvp. WOW is all i can say. that should of waited till schedule maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashphael Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Some random Bioware-defense: I really hate all this crying. My god people you cry when they don't patch fast enough and when they finally do patch you cry again. SHUT UP. It's not the fact that they patch. Or that they patch twice a week. It's that: Patching takes hours. Man, I can shut down / patch / restart an entire SAP ERP faster than that, only I don't have to shut it down for patching.Patches are deployed at the same time worldwide. So, when someone in europe has a day off and wants to enjoy his favourite game (still), chances are currently (at two patches a week, hoping they don't patch on weekends) 40% that you can't play during the day.Patches seem to introduce more errors than they fix. In that order (for me). Nothing else. Yes, patch. Patch often. Patch early. But don't interrupt gameplay as much as you do. Unfortunately, for this they'd have to: Develop new code serverside that allows for faster patching. Obviously what they have at the moment is complete crap. This won't happen, ever. Costs way too much money to write with no monetary benefits to the company.Patch at different times on different continents. This won't happen, ever. They allow players to play on servers for any continent they like. With a phased patch, the client would (from first timezone being patched to last one) be able to connect to servers on different patch-revisions. So multiple revisions would have to be supported by the same client. Costs way too much money to write with no monetary benefits to the company. At the same time, now that they've started out the way they have, they can't restrict players who already use servers on various continents.This one is doable (but unlikely). Allow charcopy to PTS and listen to the players who are testing. While the first is probably relatively easy to develop, the other is a cultural thing. In the past BW seems to have ignored testers that are not BW employees. Cultural change in this respect is doable, but unlikely. So, patching will (I fear) remain a pain. Once the novelty of the game wears off, the painpoints will start to show. The more there are, the fewer gamecards I fear I'm going to buy. And I'm not the only one. This is sad. And it's stupid. For no matter what it costs to develop the features necessary (serverside and clientside), it's cheaper than to write off 200 million for a failed franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TapVallian Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 you only choose to play four hours, 'can' and 'cant' are big words. You obviously have NO UNDERSTANDING of logic if you don't even grasp basic meanings of words. Sleep at a different time, get a different job, play a different game..... crazy i know, but u ARE the master of your own destiny, despite how terrifying that is for the rest of us. And you, sir, obviously have no understanding of having a REAL job. And just simply have no understanding. Yeah the person who wrote that original part up there obviously is not in touch with reality. He actually said "get a different job" in regards to complaints about server downtime affecting our particular playtime.... I just shook my head.... there's so much fail in that post, its beyond normal comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevesNET Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I foresaw this yesterday; but I had saked for it to be on a Saturday again. For some reason these "emergency" patches always happen overnight in USA.... hummm.... My post got deleted because I mentioned there was a warzone exploit people were using to come in with more than 10... LOLZ Guess this isn't get fixed yet, not in patch notes. A patch for the patch that supposedly "fixed" the last patch, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) It's not the fact that they patch. Or that they patch twice a week. It's that: Patching takes hours. Man, I can shut down / patch / restart an entire SAP ERP faster than that, only I don't have to shut it down for patching. . Do you have any idea of the engineering (and development cost) that has gone into making SAP mission critical software over the years? It's a product deployable to client sites - not internal first party hosted product/service. Certainly if you speak of it, you clearly understand the differences, right? Additionally, this is a game. A video game. There is NOTHING mission critical about it. Send me your address, I'll send you the 9 cents from this morning. Edited February 9, 2012 by Lethality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevesNET Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 There is NOTHING mission critical about it. There's NOTHING mission critical about a multi-multi-million dollar "game" that PAYS your SALARY and your BOSSES salary? Please, do go on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) There's NOTHING mission critical about a multi-multi-million dollar "game" that PAYS your SALARY and your BOSSES salary? Please, do go on... Correct. Especially, have a read of the EULA. Edit: Note there are no SLAs. Service is provided as-is. Edited February 9, 2012 by Lethality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TapVallian Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 ^^This. Obviously BW thinks a very small portion of their overall player population is far more important than the vast majority of other players. Just more proof that BW hasn't got the slightest clue how to run an MMO and has their priorities totally skewed and Bassackwards. ~Saitada Wait... are you saying this MMO doesn't revolve around PvP? ... 'cause one would think from looking at how things are handled that PvP is IT and everything else is a distant 2nd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Propanelgen Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 How the hell can they use 4 hours to deploy such a small patch that fixes one simple issue? It shouldnt take more than 15 minutes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonb Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wait... are you saying this MMO doesn't revolve around PvP? ... 'cause one would think from looking at how things are handled that PvP is IT and everything else is a distant 2nd... I have played this game since launch and havent touched PVP once... I am sure I am not alone. Where is your evidence that a majority of players spend a majority of their time doing PVP? This patch is a pain and fo r me makes no difference,. Move on... nothing to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursacrifice Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 It's as if people have never experienced patching in an MMO before This is the first MMO to require a patch to fix the patch two days after release every time the game has been patched. So yeah, it's a new experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashphael Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Do you have any idea of the engineering (and development cost) that has gone into making SAP mission critical software over the years? It's a product deployable to client sites - not internal first party hosted product/service. Certainly if you speak of it, you clearly understand the differences, right? Yes, I know rather well how they work, what it costs. Trust me. An SAP ERP is not deployed "to client sites". Yes, the GUI is installed on clients but the servers are run "on premise", and they're what I'm talking about. Unless you mean Business By Design (which is SaaS), but I was referring to the ERP Suite.From the viewpoint of a user sitting at his GUI, a server restart "on premise" is just the same as a server restart at Bioware for a gamer sitting at his PC. Only it does not normally take 4 hours. And almost all patches can be deployed in a running system (all ABAP at least). Clearly, I know what I'm talking about when I make a statement about ERP systems. Additionally, this is a game. A video game. There is NOTHING mission critical about it. True. But it's a service and the way they provide it at the time can only be characterised as "poorly". Send me your address, I'll send you the 9 cents from this morning. As with most people working, my time is worth way more than 9 cents/hour. I have a limited amount of free time besides work. Some of that is eaten up by family / housework. I have a certain amount of money I can spend during the rest of the time. That's way more than 9 cents/hour. For 9 cents, I'd not get to the door to pick them up if you knocked, sorry. Again, probably like most working people. Edited February 9, 2012 by Ashphael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 How the hell can they use 4 hours to deploy such a small patch that fixes one simple issue? It shouldnt take more than 15 minutes! Any idea how their infrastructure works? Or how long it takes to bring 200+ servers offline, patch, QA and bring back online? This isn't like downloading an updated on your iPad... my god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmonkeeus Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 This is the first MMO to require a patch to fix the patch two days after release every time the game has been patched. So yeah, it's a new experience. O'RLLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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