The MMO genre needs to stop looking backwards.

[VenthiosLestaran]

 

I hadn't seen this con panel. Thank you for linking it, it really does look great. I really hope other developers learn something just from what these guys are trying. It would make for some great games, a melding of themepark and sandbox. The Sandpark. I think that would make a lot of people happy.

[Nrrrdking]

I just want to chime in on the Trinity sub-argument

 

The trinity system was never intended to create a "realistic" simulation of fantasy combat.

 

The intent is to reward cooperation between individual players. MMOs that have tried to abandon and/or redesign the trinity system have had mixed results at best. It works because it's easy to understand and easy to design for.

 

If you have an alternative system of combat that encourages and rewards teamwork between players and can be explained in less than 10 words, I'm ALL EARS.

 

As for ideas concerning innovation... well...

 

Innovation only works when it's incremental. When you try to rebuild something from the ground up and ignore the lessons learned by your predecessors, you risk stupid mistakes.

 

I think Bioware did the smart thing with ToR. They seem to have taken the established MMOs out there and copied what worked. This includes the trinity, rich solo content and objective based PvP.

 

The innovation came in the gaps between. Some experiments were successful (The companion system) and some were not (the Expertise stat). All in all the game is sound and has some innovative ideas. Instead of aiming for something new and completely out-of-the-box in concept they took what already works and iterated on it. That is the smart thing to do.

[TonyIommi]

I just want to chime in on the Trinity sub-argument

 

The trinity system was never intended to create a "realistic" simulation of fantasy combat.

 

The intent is to reward cooperation between individual players. MMOs that have tried to abandon and/or redesign the trinity system have had mixed results at best. It works because it's easy to understand and easy to design for.

 

If you have an alternative system of combat that encourages and rewards teamwork between players and can be explained in less than 10 words, I'm ALL EARS.

 

As for ideas concerning innovation... well...

 

Innovation only works when it's incremental. When you try to rebuild something from the ground up and ignore the lessons learned by your predecessors, you risk stupid mistakes.

 

I think Bioware did the smart thing with ToR. They seem to have taken the established MMOs out there and copied what worked. This includes the trinity, rich solo content and objective based PvP.

 

The innovation came in the gaps between. Some experiments were successful (The companion system) and some were not (the Expertise stat). All in all the game is sound and has some innovative ideas. Instead of aiming for something new and completely out-of-the-box in concept they took what already works and iterated on it. That is the smart thing to do.

 

 

And since the minute they announced this game that's all they said they were gonna do. Add story to the already established pillars of MMO gaming. Yet people are confused and upset. It's like they didn't pay attention for the past *********** 6 years...

[laural]

Eve Online.

 

 

Thank you for trying to help me by giving me a game suggestion, but the biggest problem is that from what I understand about Eve, it's a PVP game.

 

I don't PVP. I get too panicky when faced with people who really know what they're doing, and I'm just very bad at it. I end up forgetting what all my buttons are for and just start hitting things like mad while watching myself die. Then I get mad and my nice relaxing time at the computer after work has now turned into an anxiety-ridden evening where my husband takes the brunt of my irritation when I log off.

 

Thus, for my untalented self, my ideal game wouldn't include PVP.

[VenthiosLestaran]

And since the minute they announced this game that's all they said they were gonna do. Add story to the already established pillars of MMO gaming. Yet people are confused and upset. It's like they didn't pay attention for the past *********** 6 years...

 

Tony. Please. I have to know. What curse word has THAT many letters! I'm stumped since you first started cursing at me a few days ago whenever you'd respond to me in posts! I mean I still see you're cursing or pretend cursing but, I have to know.

[Armourboy]

I agree on everything minus the removal of healers. I can understand needing to tone it down, or give us that like to heal something else to do ( or you know be able to do it while doing something else) but I have a hard time wanting to play any game that doesn't have a healing role of some kind in it.

 

Even SWG, the almighty sandbox, had a couple of types of healers. I played a Doc, I played a CM, heck I was even a Master Healer on my Jedi. This idea of removing healers is the reason I'm not all the excited about GW2.

 

Just because you and others don't like the style of game play that comes as being a healer, there are those of us that love it. Its our thing, its what we enjoy. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it needs to be removed. I don't particularly like classes that use slow big hits ( think arms warrior in WoW or most games Paladins) but that doesn't mean I think they should be removed.

 

Personally, I think the next big MMO will be the one that figures out how to merge sandbox/themepark and tweaks the trinity system. The trinity system isn't all bad, its just that no one has tweaked it really since EQ and that is a problem.

[Arkerus]

A lot of players don't have time to log on and work on their fictional farm all die.

 

The day of the grind is over.

 

There will be niche games that you might like better. They will still be made and probably be successful. The biggest games though will always be those that cater to the most number of people.

 

I'm sorry OP, but your perspective is very personal and built around what you consider to be the best kind of game.

 

I don't have all day to be a moisture farmer.

[VenthiosLestaran]

I agree on everything minus the removal of healers. I can understand needing to tone it down, or give us that like to heal something else to do ( or you know be able to do it while doing something else) but I have a hard time wanting to play any game that doesn't have a healing role of some kind in it.

 

Even SWG, the almighty sandbox, had a couple of types of healers. I played a Doc, I played a CM, heck I was even a Master Healer on my Jedi. This idea of removing healers is the reason I'm not all the excited about GW2.

 

Just because you and others don't like the style of game play that comes as being a healer, there are those of us that love it. Its our thing, its what we enjoy. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it needs to be removed. I don't particularly like classes that use slow big hits ( think arms warrior in WoW or most games Paladins) but that doesn't mean I think they should be removed.

 

Personally, I think the next big MMO will be the one that figures out how to merge sandbox/themepark and tweaks the trinity system. The trinity system isn't all bad, its just that no one has tweaked it really since EQ and that is a problem.

 

GW2's changes to the trinity system isn't fully removing it, it's being called the soft trinity. You still need players to soak damage properly. The thing is, primary healing is being replaced with Support. No one is going to force you out of your support roll. Healing is simply mitigating damage by virtue of restoring HP as it is depleted. It may not cater to all of the "I like health bars" players, and that's ok. SWTOR does.

 

A support character like say, a guardian with his shield/scepter. Drop barriers that reflect damage, shield allies from damage. It's mitigation that YOU can do that no one else can. Everyone's support abilities are unique. Necromancer tosses down damage aoe's that heal friendlies.

 

It's kind of like an advanced dual spec that you can switch on the fly - it simply replaces whack a mole with health bars, and puts in mitigation mechanics that others must respond to and utilize after you deploy them.

 

Does that help any? I mean if HP bars are your thing, definitely SWTOR or WoW is for you, and that's fine.

[KurleyKilla]

If you haven't played a healing class how can you comment on how they feel?

 

I agree that most people have the viewpoint that they are boring and don't get to do much, I used to believe this as well... But that was extremely ignorant.

 

Raid healing in WoW was much more complex in most situations then anything the DPS and Tanks had to deal with (as far as raid mechanics)

 

and to use this game as an example... I can only speak for myself but, on my sage alt I do a hell of a lot more then just stare at bars... If I did, I would be dead in 2 seconds.

 

A lot of the things you're talking about exist in one form or another already.

 

Instead of using the Alteric Valley example and saying everything done there is pointless.

 

Why don't you mention Wintergrasp, Where winning means you gain control of the area, get access to important raids and NPC's

Edited February 8, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[VoloVersio]

I really wish I had something to add to the OP, but it points out some real structural problems with the genre with a sort of clarity that I cannot hope to emulate. Every point is well-made. MMOs these days really lack that degree of personal investment, and the risk of loss associated with it, that perhaps is inherently prudent for such a time-consuming activity.

[Esaru]

Guild Wars 2 is gonna take the cake. I'm betting on it

[Traumahawk]

The game you want is designed for a niche audience. One need only look at the extreme polarity of ideas and opinions in these forums to see that the "melting-pot" idea of an all-inclusive game is going to end up with the exact opposite effect it was designed to create. It's a re-segregation of player types into games that appeal to their set of values and objectives. People will always want to experience a game with like-minded individuals that share their values. By default, a game that chooses to cater to a wide range of play types will have only watered-down versions of everything, and not really excel at anything.

 

Look at the forums. Player A complains that a feature is causing a poor gaming experience in a raid environment. Being that this is their first MMO, Player B isn't even phased by the lack of the feature and tells A to just quit. Player C is a hard-core PvPer and tells A that it will destroy PvP and that no one cares about "carebear" PvE anyway. Player D thinks that the lack of the feature is immersive and that whiners should not be allowed to post anymore. Player E just hit level 14 after two months of playing the game and finds Player A's comments sad and hate-filled.

 

See how wonderful a diverse gaming community can be?

[VenthiosLestaran]

If you haven't played a healing class how can you comment on how they feel?

 

I agree that most people have the viewpoint that they are boring and don't get to do much, I used to believe this as well... But that was extremely ignorant.

 

Raid healing in WoW was much more complex in most situations then anything the DPS and Tanks had to deal with (as far as raid mechanics)

 

and to use this game as an example... I can only speak for myself but, on my sage alt I do a hell of a lot more then just stare at bars... If I did, I would be dead in 2 seconds.

 

Tell me about it. I was primary dispels/raid heals/tank support in WOTLK HM Arthas 25 was fun. Rocket booting from one side to the other firing off heals, rolling cool downs to keep the tank up + raid as we moved. Man I miss my red frostwitch gear.

 

However, that being said I think the needed dependency on players like you or I, needs to be put away for the most part. It makes things difficult if we stop existing.

[Tullaian]

Thank you for trying to help me by giving me a game suggestion, but the biggest problem is that from what I understand about Eve, it's a PVP game.

 

I

 

Eve is not a PVP game.

 

It does have a very very rich PVP system but that system is entirely optional. There are vast areas of space where PVP is banned , so called- Hi-Security space and you can engage in a vast portion of the game in total saftey.

 

In Lo-Security space where pvp is enabled most players join guilds/alliances and exist inside their own secure sectors. There are many mining/ ship building/ commerce focused guilds who live inside PVP areas who strike deals with PVP guilds to protect them or their borders.

 

Basically you need to go looking for PVP in Eve to find it. While you can be attacked in low-security space it isn't anywhere near as common as people who have never played the game believe.

 

Not trying to sell Eve as it has its own issues but many people have misconceptions that it is a giant pvp gank fest which is entirely not true.

[VenthiosLestaran]

Eve is not a PVP game.

 

It does have a very very rich PVP system but that system is entirely optional. There are vast areas of space where PVP is banned , so called- Hi-Security space and you can engage in a vast portion of the game in total saftey.

 

In Lo-Security space where pvp is enabled most players join guilds/alliances and exist inside their own secure sectors. There are many mining/ ship building/ commerce focused guilds who live inside PVP areas who strike deals with PVP guilds to protect them or their borders.

 

Basically you need to go looking for PVP in Eve to find it. While you can be attacked in low-security space it isn't anywhere near as common as people who have never played the game believe.

 

Not trying to sell Eve as it has its own issues but many people have misconceptions that it is a giant pvp gank fest which is entirely not true.

 

More importantly Eve CAN BE a PVP game - if you want it to be.

 

It can also be a market domination game.

 

Or a PVE Game. It can be lots of things

[Andryah]

A lot of us would love a game like that. There's just not enough of us I don't think.

 

Bingo.

 

OP, you are a niche in the market. You need to find a niche game that meets your needs.

 

It won't be a triple-A product though because niches are not very scaleable, at least not profitably.

 

It's unrealistic to expect large MMO properties to limit themselves to a niche market.

[Lethality]

Bingo.

 

OP, you are a niche in the market. You need to find a niche game that meets your needs.

 

It won't be a triple-A product though because niches are not very scaleable, at least not profitably.

 

It's unrealistic to expect large MMO properties to limit themselves to a niche market.

 

You're 100% incorrect.

 

It might be a niche in the _gamer_ market, but in the true mass market - where sandbox social games will emerge from the mainstream casual side - there are many more people, by an order of magnitude, that want to be a baker in the game instead of just another combatant.

 

Blizzard is banking on it, and this is what you will see in Titan.

 

The niche in the near future? Theme-park on-rails worlds with but one true gameplay style - like TOR.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Lethality

[AJediKnight]

Bingo.

 

OP, you are a niche in the market. You need to find a niche game that meets your needs.

 

It won't be a triple-A product though because niches are not very scaleable, at least not profitably.

 

It's unrealistic to expect large MMO properties to limit themselves to a niche market.

 

I keep hearing its a niche market, but what I haven't seen is any sort of proof.

 

The last time anyone even seriously attempted to design a sandbox MMO, a 250k subscriber base was a 'huge game.'

 

If a bakery only sells wheat bread, then that's what everyone eats, or they go hungry. What that is not conclusive proof of, however, is that everyone (or even a majority of people) love/prefer wheat bread.

[Traumahawk]

I keep hearing its a niche market, but what I haven't seen is any sort of proof.

 

The last time anyone even seriously attempted to design a sandbox MMO, a 250k subscriber base was a 'huge game.'

 

If a bakery only sells wheat bread, then that's what everyone eats, or they go hungry. What that is not conclusive proof of, however, is that everyone (or even a majority of people) love/prefer wheat bread.

 

Because the "other half"--the players that don't take the game as "seriously" are diluting the game you want. The bread analogy works because you aren't sacrificing the taste of the white bread to sell the wheat bread. However, in this new trend of MMOs, in order to not chase off the "other-half", you must create an experience with very little to lose and a lot to gain.

[Stenrik]

Great post, OP. Heart-felt and well-written. As a creative person (actually I work in game design on the art end) I really value the ability for self-expression in games, and the feeling of ownership that comes with it.

 

For the time being, killing stuff and mindless PVP/PVE is fun for me. We'll see how long it lasts.

 

I would love to see something along the lines of Second Life, only better. Something that would provide a platform for professional developers to create their own mini "worlds" within it. Along the lines of Entropia, but you know, not a scam... I'm interested in Titan, Blizzard's new project. I think they're starting to feel like the OP does.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Stenrik

[Uben]

Bingo.

 

OP, you are a niche in the market. You need to find a niche game that meets your needs.

 

It won't be a triple-A product though because niches are not very scaleable, at least not profitably.

 

It's unrealistic to expect large MMO properties to limit themselves to a niche market.

 

You mean niche as in say, betting on the just the small story driven crowd to sustain your game?

Edited February 8, 2012 by Uben

[VenthiosLestaran]

You mean niche as in say, betting on the story driven crowd to sustain your game?

 

To be fair Uben. Bioware tried to not only cater to the niche story players in that they touted the story as the next pillar along with combat. They wanted to fully integrate story into a AAA *Themepark* MMO. However, it really seems like they gave it the Bioware stamp of approval on the story - and not the MMO.

 

This game, all over the forums is being hailed as the Casuals Champion - the RPG lovers dream. Yet, at the end it's all just raiding and pvp grinding which is what people expect for more "hard core" theme park players ever since WoW set it as the standard after refining EQ1's raid methodology.

 

It's a first attempt - someone else will refine it or they will as the road progresses. However, the Grinder doesn't sit well with the "Casuals" who hail the game as such a great game for Casual players - who probably haven't hit 50 yet, or will just re-roll another character to slowly level and experience the story, however that will not promote a healthy level 50 community for Warzones and raids, especially since raid's only require 1 tank and 2 healers at the most even at 16 man levels on nightmare. This needs to be redesigned.

 

Another thing I've noticed is people saying they will add more story. How? In the form of flashpoints for level 50's, or more quests for level 50's who will get what out of it? Gear/Legacy? Alternate leveling planets? Wouldn't that take away from the existing story? I'd like to see just how the handle it.

 

There is also the idea that Rise of the Rakghouls wasn't made until the game launched. The content for Rise of the Rakghouls - up to the first expansion was completed before the game even shipped. It's good business sense.

Edited February 8, 2012 by VenthiosLestaran

[denpic]

How about we stop dissecting and picking games to pieces

And just play for fun

[VenthiosLestaran]

How about we stop dissecting and picking games to pieces

And just play for fun

 

Sorry Denpic. A product has to survive being dissected by it's patrons. To accept things as is and never look at them beyond the shell is foolish at best. Especially when you pay for it monthly.

Edited February 8, 2012 by VenthiosLestaran

[Aluo]

I got about half way down this well designed rant and realized one thing.

 

THIS HAS ALL BEEN DONE ALREADY SIR, you missed the boat by a couple years.

 

The game you are looking for was called Star Wars Galaxies, and it pretty much was SimSTARWARS. I loved the game, and I agree with you that some people just want to RP in a vast world.

 

Here is the overall issue you will always run into.

 

VISION + MARKETING = Sad Designer.

 

In the end if a Marketing team and Production Manager doesn't like a mechanic or vision it is yanked.

 

NO SANDBOX MMO will ever touch the success that WoW has had, and in the end that is what every publisher wants from their titles. MONEY!

 

When you can get the Marketing / Producers / Designers all on the same page, MAYBE you will get the game you want.