SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[DarthKhaos]

There are a lot of ways housing could be implemented intelligently. Either just make use of the current hangar system to allow groupmates into your ship and offer more decorating/RP options inside of them. Or even allow purchasing of other/larger ships where maybe you have multiple in the hangar.

Currently players that are in your party can enter your hanger and go on your ship. It's just like your class story instances. You have to enter the hanger first. Also there's an option allowing same classes into your class instances which works for the hangers also. I've ridden shotgun in a friend's Imp Agent kick ***** ship then ran instantly and made me one.

 

You can't customize it yet which would be a nice addition even if it's like how armor changes the way your character look the ship equipment you put on your ship changes the way your ship looks.

[Volthammer]

...I understand the limitations of time and budget constraints. But a lot of these issues show a gross lack of fundamental understanding of MMOs and the attention to detail that a great game experience entails. Stuff that doesn't come down to extra time -- but to proper initial design. They must have been consulting Mythic employees for MMO tips lol... big mistake.

 

I have to absolutely agree with you here. Also, I do have to wonder if, perhaps, "The Suits" didn't force them to rush the game out when it really wasn't ready for release. It's hard for me to believe that after 12 or 14 years of MMO's having been around that they honestly didn't know how to better prepare TOR for release than they did. I had read that they spent approximately $135,000,000 developing the game. This I honest to God cannot believe. Did they??

 

I am, truthfully, enjoying the game for the most part but, you are right, there are a multitude of little things (the very clumsy GK interface, for example) that really add up.

[Lord_Nova]

I completely agree with the OP. In order for SWTOR to set itself apart form other MMO titles it needs to provide players with something that those other MMOs don't have instead of trying to be like them. The story and voice acting is a very nice treat and sets it apart during the leveling part of the game but there is nothing that sets it apart at end game.

[arnaudlublink]

Take a look at the sky/mountains on Alderaan, or the sky above Ilum, etc. And places like Nar Shadaa

 

The world in this game is so made then you never really see the sky.

 

I prefer they add rabbits and more nature and mobs on better spots then the sky you never see. everywhere I walk I never see living, just programmed mobs.

[Mandrax]

/signed. More Sandbox-elements. SWG had it until NGE (WoW in space), after NGE they lost 9/10 of the player base.

 

9/10 of a TINY playerbase.

 

Read this, some real facts from a SWG developer on how popular the game REALLY was.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Mandrax

[Calsidian]

I really miss simply being able to pick a direction and start running and being completely engrossed in the game as I travel. Nowadays the player is led by the nose everywhere and spoon fed the game and every players experience is pretty much identical.

 

This.

 

You can have sandbox elements in a game without resorting to the extremes of older MMOs, and I believe they could live along side the themepark elements just fine. If you kept the core questlines of TOR (class quests and some of the other major world questlines) and then tossed out all the filler quests and instead supplemented them with progression through sandbox elements, it would be perfect imo. I think most would agree that the class quests are a major reason why this game is enjoyable 1-50, but there is no reason why you can't still have these to provide guidance while also having more open ended worlds where you can decide your own path.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Calsidian

[Esquire]

OP, think you are right on the mark here. I would also add that they have way too many knockdowns, knockbacks, etc etc etc for the engine to process (causing engine lag) and helps with the player opinions that melee is not the class(es) to play.

 

They get the combat fixed and what you have put in the OP and I might have to try this game again myself. I'll ck back in a year. Did this with STO and after about a year there was enough for me to sub and wait for some more. Right now, there is not enough for me to continue on just shear potential. And potential becomes it's own drawback after awhile if it is not realised.

[Radburn]

The general consensus of my guild mates, and others that I talk to about the state of the game all seem to have the same thing in common - Post 50 content was not well planned & tested.

 

Your analogy of "death by a thousand paper cuts" is bang on in that there are literally hundreds of small issues that are affecting people. Alone they would only be a nuisance, like a paper cut. Together they add up to something much more serious and the game is bleeding out faster. To compound the problem further Bioware has handled PR poorly (patches that state something has been fixed when it has not, misinformation ect) and is losing the confidence of its customer base. We're seeing maintenance/patches roll out every other night which a) shuts down the servers and b) tends to break more than it fixes, if it fixes anything at all. I know some die hard fans that were on board with Bioware at the start and are now silent and not logging in as much.

[Tirfin]

Well written and well said.

[ptwonline]

No, it's not the end of the road for themepark-style MMOs.

 

Themeparks have another descriptive name for them: delivered content. I think of it this way: you can either go out hunting for food, or you can have room service. Most people prefer room service even if the choice is much more limited and even if obtaining your food this way is much less of a satisfying experience overall.

 

MMOs reached the masses when content was delivered to them more conveniently and passively, much like watching TV. Sandbox games are more of what you make of them, and so it requires a lot more effort on a player's part to actually have something to do. Themepark MMOs are popular for much the same reason that TV is popular: a reasonable-quality experience with relatively minimal time and effort expended to obtain it.

 

Think of it this way: it's a lot easier to simply play an NBA video game than it is to join a basketball rec league.

 

However, I do agree that there is plenty of room for sandbox-style elements in a themepark game, and in fact they are desirable to put in simply because the content demand from players is simply impossible to meet otherwise without resorting to ridiculous and off-putting grinds.

Edited February 15, 2012 by ptwonline

[ActionPrinny]

I have to absolutely agree with you here. Also, I do have to wonder if, perhaps, "The Suits" didn't force them to rush the game out when it really wasn't ready for release.

 

Without a doubt, I'm sure that is part of it. It always is Especially for them launching for the Xmas season. Although honestly, since it's Starwars, I don't think they would have been seriously set back in sales by waiting for March or something.

 

Also about my comments on Mythic: My reasons for that opinion are because they don't have a good track record with Warhammer. And Dark Age of Camelot, while moderately successful, had A LOT of problems that would have made it fail in the current market. It succeeded because at the time there were few MMOs launching, many were unstable, and the RvR combat was basically the pseudo-sandbox content that kept people playing.

 

The one thing it had going for it was that it launched stable. Part of this was that it launched with no content. Only the first dungeon from your teens was itemized at launch. It wasn't until like 4 months after release that the L40s dungeon was itemized. Their major failure though was in class balance. They were just absolutely terrible at class balance. They would "spreadsheet balance" based on what the largest chunk of the subscribers were complaining about. And it wouldn't address the root issue, but merely be a bandaid fix. So they would be placing bandaids on bandaids. They actually ran official servers that were "Pre-TOA" because that expansion was so disliked by subscribers and the balance problems it created.

 

Ironically enough the game was the most balanced right at release, pretty much.

Edited February 16, 2012 by ActionPrinny

[MalignX]

Don't think I can say anything more elegantly than a lot of the posts on here. But I definitely don't feel that sense of "explorable" engrossing world, that I even got in early WoW. At the same time, I don't miss pointless "time-sinks".

[HyperThomas]

I agree with this.

[Vaalix]

This company doesnt have the right brained capacity to do this hybrid system i was actually talking about it it in 2009 on this very forum under my troll name vaalix which was banned more times than some of the bioware devs can count.

 

I basically said the first company to mix sandbox with themepark will kill wow dead in the water if done properly.

 

Hundreds of us told them 2 years ago the wow model was dieing and it was quite obviois after rift failed. To me a failed mmo is less than 500 k subs post 6 months of release. This game is hovering around 400 k right now. Dont ask where i got that number it will be apparent in the coming months.

 

Bioware deserves nothimg less than tbis failure of a game because they never once listened to anyone and simply stole and copied everything from wow. Wow effectively destroyed the mmo genre and turned it into some fantasy land would you like fries with that mc mmo sir? They breed and brought into the genre the most simplistic casual a.d.d kids the genre has ever seen by making it so acessible to the masses by only chasing $$$$. Wow is simply a polished up turd of a game and much like mc donalds they serve $hit up on a daily basis to millions.

 

The mmo market has been destroyed by corporate greed and polished simplicity... And also by the mc wow casuals who think they have the answer to all the game designs issues because blizzard showed them the only way they've ever come to know.

 

I blame bioware for trying to steal wows sub base. I blame wow for making such garbage and breeding so many pro mmo players lol.. And i blame anyone who continues to support polished and most times very unpolished simplicity.

 

I hate gaming in this a.d.d generation of high school dropouts.

Edited February 16, 2012 by rakkiki

[Jurgen-Ferik]

It's too late to redesign the game.

[Moaky]

Whoever thinks sandbox style isn't the future of MMOs is fooling themselves.

 

Theme parks alone are absolutely a dead end at this point. WAY too repetitive. I thought SWG was very innovative for what they attempted, and I felt it worked. Coupled with some theme park elements that game could have been the best.

 

The fact that Bioware didn't choose to take a risk and just went for the safe bet without a shred of originality, is being reflected on the feedback for this game and the reason this game will probably fade away very shortly, at least from the spotlight.

 

Sandbox style, player cities, player created content is the future of MMOs, if there is any future at all.

 

Yeah OK Mr I know It all....

 

Themeparks have ruled since EQ hit stride over 10 yrs ago. Your average person is a consumer, and not a producer. They arent looking to create something, they are simply looking to sit down and have fun.

 

Uncle Owen selling us our gear isnt going mainstream in the next 10 yrs. To do so would mean you expect the concept of repeatedly buying the same items from Owen, due to a forced depandency, to become popular. Where as before folks have gone out to earn their gear, now they are simply farming credits? Dont see it.

 

Making your own cities.....Is that like the virtual ghost towns of SWG before NGE ever hit? Why in the heck would a person want to build cities vs doing PVE content? YOu might sell it to some, but to the majority? Dont see it. What really sucks is due to the evironment being left open, for folks building things, there isnt much avalable space for quality PVE content.

 

Lastly....PVP, which is a common staple of sandbox MMOs. So PVE folks are going to all of a sudden want to play on PVP servers? Dont see it......but wait there is more. Sandbox MMOs have given those griefers not only the ability to corpse camp folks, but in some cases the ability to tear down what others have created? Big time dont see it.

 

 

Some of you folks wanna keep spouting the "sandbox will rule someday" BS, and all I keep seeing is themeparks selling. Get back to us when they actually become common place.

[Sardia-Jax]

Yes, another feedback post, but seeing as I'm a Compsci major, and my forte is project design and layout, I think it will be worthwhile to read...

 

Bioware has developed a very compelling game world. Many of the locations exhibit not only great beauty, but also are technically very challenging to design. Take a look at the sky/mountains on Alderaan, or the sky above Ilum, etc. And places like Nar Shadaa (And presumably Coruscant) are technically very challenging to accomplish without load screens at acceptable FPS, etc. The use of musical direction in setting the mood for areas, worlds, or quests is excellent. It's the only MMO I feel I can't play with the radio in the background or I won't get the proper effect.

 

SWTOR right now however, is suffering a "death by a thousand paper cuts" as it were, with regards to quality-of-life design issues, and the unguided state of post-50 content. There are myriad little design annoyances with the game that when compounded, have a sizable affect on peoples' perceptions of the game. Combine that with the sink-or-swim nature of content once you reach L50, and it's no wonder server populations are already dwindling.

 

Theme-park MMO designs have reached an untenable situation of exponential costs + ever-shorter leveling curves. The theme-park style of MMO has reached a point of oversaturation -- people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks. IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in. It would be the social hub that MMOs have been missing for quite some time.

 

MMOs in the past featured an extensive grind with few quests. My first character in EQ1 took 50 days /played to hit L50, for example. (18-20 days for WoW) But what current MMOs are missing is the social aspect of MMO gaming from the past -- sure you were grinding, but chatting with groupmates and those in the zone was just as important or moreso than leveling your character. This is one of the largest reasons the Korean market still prefers heavier grinds -- it's for the socializing. I think they need to lengthen out the leveling once more and tap more into the social aspects of MMOs. Social networking is so huge now -- why is it that Massively MULTIPLAYER games are such insular solo content these days?

 

If Bioware really wants SWTOR to succeed they need to first and foremost, provide more cohesive guidance on how to proceed at L50, but then also add in sandbox elements to give players ways to spend their time between patches. Player housing, a total revamp of the crafting system for a more meaningful meta-game, etc. Heck I think an amazing thing would be an EVE-like space part of the game that you could explore and carve out your own little niche, except far less ruthless than EVE, of course.

(Quality of life and Guidance issues I'll address in a separate thread)

 

^^ this, plus 10, with a side of sugar and spice.

 

I have posted similar things to a lesser extent, but you nailed it....especially with the social aspect...this game has ZERO social aspect...none, nada, zip. I mean common, everyone has a companion (crappy controls on it, limited skills, moronic interaction, but hey, everyone has a "pet")...that alone means you very rarely, if ever, need to group. and with the vast ammount of running around, makes grouping especially difficult imo.

 

I started Galaxies as a crafter on day 1...i remember sampleing crappy metals on tat and selling junk blasters/giving them away and making friends...and if you wanted to know what was happening, on any planet...get a buff, get some info, you hit the nearest cantina...talk about social...so miss that :/

Edited February 16, 2012 by Sardia-Jax

[otakuon]

Quite frankly, and I believed this before TOR even came out, that this would be the end of the AAA MMO genre as we know it. Not because TOR would be a bad game (and personally, I don't think it is) but because there is a large segment of the gamer population that is burned out on epic MMOs in general and are moving away to more bite size pieces of consumption such as social gaming (i.e. Farmville and other games linked to social networks) and mobile gaming on their phones. The attention spans of the average gamer has continued to shrink to the point that most would rather player a smaller, quicker to complete game, so that they can finish it and just move on to the next one.

 

Gamers no longer have the patience to stick it out with an MMO and help it evolve, grow and get better over time, which was the original philosophy of the genre. Now days, if an MMO doesn't satisfy our every whim and fancy on release, it gets relegated to the trash heap as the players move on to the "next big" thing which inevitably lets them down as well. Look at how many MMOs over the past 6 years (virtually all of them) have come and gone. Many of them were good MMOs, but because they did not live up to the expectations of the the gamer community at launch, they were deemed unworthy, and forced to die a sometimes quick death due to lack of subscriptions and thus development funds which would have allowed the game to get better. So really, we have no one to blame but ourselves, the gamer, for the death of the MMO genre. Eventually, publishers will realize that no one is willing to endure the long term commitment that comes with being an MMO subscriber and simply stop making AAA MMOs. I mean, we already see this happening with the "freemium" (aka F2P) MMOs, which by all accounts seems to be the business model of the future. But can you honestly say that any of these games have the level of quality and production values when compared to the AAA MMOs of the past (er, present)? For the most part, we put up with them because they are free, and thus cost us nothing other then time (well, for most of us they cost nothing). But how can these games ever reach the level of say, WoW, when the vast majority of people who play them don't pay a dime back to the developers so that they can fund future improvements? And the people who do actually pay for the micro-transations don't pay enough beyond providing for rudimentary support for the game?

 

So no, I don't think a AAA Sandbox MMO will ever work in this environment. Such games require too much of an investment on the part of the gamer that they just aren't willing to commit to anymore. Small, niche Sandbox MMOs maybe, because there still are some die-hards out there. But the times are changing, and todays video/computer game player is not the same breed of gamer as there was 10 years ago.

[otakuon]

^^ this, plus 10, with a side of sugar and spice.

 

I have posted similar things to a lesser extent, but you nailed it....especially with the social aspect...this game has ZERO social aspect...none, nada, zip. I mean common, everyone has a companion (crappy controls on it, limited skills, moronic interaction, but hey, everyone has a "pet")...that alone means you very rarely, if ever, need to group. and with the vast ammount of running around, makes grouping especially difficult imo.

 

I started Galaxies as a crafter on day 1...i remember sampleing crappy metals on tat and selling junk blasters/giving them away and making friends...and if you wanted to know what was happening, on any planet...get a buff, get some info, you hit the nearest cantina...talk about social...so miss that :/

 

I am going to have to say the lack of social aspect in this game is more the fault of the community then it is the game. And that this varies by server. I mean, the game rewards you for playing even standard quests as a group via the social points and social levels system which unlocks unique gear for your character. Plus, you can always dismiss your companion and never play with them and instead, group with three other players.

 

And what is to stop you, as a crafter, from scavenging metals on Tatooine, making a blaster to sell/give to another player and visit a Cantina to RP with some other players. I mean, all of that is actually going on when I play.

 

So really, I think we need to look not just at the game itself, but also at ourselves as gamers and see if we are actually playing this MMO like an MMO. I mean, come on, we have to hold ourselves accountable at some point if we want a community driven game to succeed (which, by definition, is what an MMO is).

Edited February 16, 2012 by otakuon

[bizcuits]

While it would be fantastic to see a company take a risk, the ones that do seem to get smashed against the rocks.

 

Yes and No.

 

What I've seen is companies that take a risk like lets say Funcom with (Age of Conan) usually do good, but then they cave in to the whiners.

 

My guild from Everquest had moved to WOW, then from WOW had waited for Age of Conan. We wanted the open world PVP where anyone was dead meat immediately from the beginning.

 

Age of Conan was immediately a gank fest. The first noobie yard which was just outside of the (solo zone) tutorial area was a full on warzone from day one. You couldn't get into the tunnels and sewer system unless you had a group. People had groups of 4-10 forming to fight other players, just so they could quest.

 

This WAS the advertised game play that most people wanted. Our guild LOVED IT. Yet people kept complaining that it wasn't fair. They couldn't quest without friends, they couldn't group and the world was ruthless. Eventually they cut the open world PVP, made restrictions and ultimately killed the reasons many of us had bought the game.

 

It started big, but their own desire to cater to the casual gamers resulted in our guild going back to WOW.... Surprisingly many others followed right behind us... Had they kept their PVP system like they advertised, there is no telling how that game would have ended up.

 

So yea, they tried something new and got smashed against the rocks, but only because they diverted the course.

[ActionPrinny]

About it being players fault for lack of the social aspect:

The game doesn't facilitate a social nature. Therefore people aren't going to go out of their way to try to form it. The LFG window is very awkward and rudimentary. PvP warzones have a queue system, but Flashpoints don't. Even something as simple as having a Highlighted link for group forming you could post to chat/have listed in the LFG system under various subheadings would help a lot. That way people could just click the link and get put in the group. Even better would be the group leader being able to teleport the other members to them for the Heroic then they get deposited back where they were afterwards possibly.

 

The voiceovers are great, but if you are in them you can't see chat. So that is another big reason grouping rarely happens. People are always staring at a dialogue wheel so they can't even see a group was offered.

 

And of course with how populations are dwindling, especially on the Republic side, they can't even get a flashpoint let alone most Heroic4s done at all. Isolation leads to people getting bored quickly and being less likely to stick around.

[Droidlife]

Yeah OK Mr I know It all....

 

Themeparks have ruled since EQ hit stride over 10 yrs ago. Your average person is a consumer, and not a producer. They arent looking to create something, they are simply looking to sit down and have fun.

 

Uncle Owen selling us our gear isnt going mainstream in the next 10 yrs. To do so would mean you expect the concept of repeatedly buying the same items from Owen, due to a forced depandency, to become popular. Where as before folks have gone out to earn their gear, now they are simply farming credits? Dont see it.

 

Making your own cities.....Is that like the virtual ghost towns of SWG before NGE ever hit? Why in the heck would a person want to build cities vs doing PVE content? YOu might sell it to some, but to the majority? Dont see it. What really sucks is due to the evironment being left open, for folks building things, there isnt much avalable space for quality PVE content.

 

Lastly....PVP, which is a common staple of sandbox MMOs. So PVE folks are going to all of a sudden want to play on PVP servers? Dont see it......but wait there is more. Sandbox MMOs have given those griefers not only the ability to corpse camp folks, but in some cases the ability to tear down what others have created? Big time dont see it.

 

 

Some of you folks wanna keep spouting the "sandbox will rule someday" BS, and all I keep seeing is themeparks selling. Get back to us when they actually become common place.

 

 

Having fun at imperial / republic fleet?

[Amdarius]

I'm not saying this to be rude or saying this to troll even though some may disagree. However gamers need to realize that not every game they may be interested in is for them. If you don't like Themepark games don't play them. Some do and they will play it.

 

You don't HAVE to play SW:TOR no matter how much you want to play a Star Wars MMO. I want to play a Space Based MMO but EvE Online and Star Trek Online didn't do it for me so I am still waiting and NOT playing those.

 

I don't mind certain themepark-y games. But SWTOR takes it to a new level in terms of the linear path of everything in game. Same quests over and over for each alt. So painful.

 

This is ultra-themepark. Too far. Bioware should stick to single-player games (which this is, but was marketed as a MMORPG).

[Moaky]

Having fun at imperial / republic fleet?

 

I would say I am having more fun than those looking for SWG 2.0 eh?

[Amdarius]

I would say I am having more fun than those looking for a good MMORPG?

 

You apparently are correct sir.