Look up and say thank you for them being here and spending their money to keep the game you like going. It could of been like SWG, post C6CD, when everyone left for good and didn't come back that time. That's when SOE San Diego gave up on the game, transferred the Producer (Deadmeat), cut the dev team down to 2, and then decided to close the servers.

I can figure it out, pretty easy actually.

At launch, when everyone was leveling, there was at least 3 very long threads on this board and more on the knight board on this NPC. And even then, there were posts saying something to the effect of; "I soloed him with 3/4 health, without the pet, and wearing a t-shirt and a thong" or some such nonsense. If your not an old WoW player used to all the interrupts then this NPC (and others as well after) are murder. This NPC has always been way over-tuned. Dallas Dickerson et al says "No1 will ever call my game easy".

Perhaps I'm not the one who needs to do a bit of research. SWG, at 350K+ (most site and player estimates at the time), was for it's time, the 2nd largest MMO (before WoW and it culminated at only 1 mil and not the 12 mil it grew to). 2nd only to EQ at about 500K+. It would seem the market just wasn't as large as it is today (they're just wasn't that many people playing MMOs then). UO, post trammel and the highest it got, was only at 220K players. SWG went down to 200K+ after CU as we get that info from Rubenfield's blog and was losing 10K per month and that was the reasoning for the NGE, he said anyway. There has been information after information, some from BioWare's former employees, some from SOE, and even some from what was at the time LA on the closure of SWG. And that seems to be that LA raised the IP fees for SWG at renewal, upon EA's request and insistance, and SOE couldn't or wasn't able to go along with that. However, there were rumors running around a year or 2 before that LA had "forgiven" the IP fees (SOE could of gotten the IP for free for a time) so that could of been the context there also. There was a reason why SWG closed the day before TOR was launched, or didn't you really notice the dates? The mistake was and is EA's there. SWG should of lived or died on it's own merits and most estimates at the closure announcement came in at around 20-30K current players but SOE did release info that SWG was actually climbing in subs at the time of the announcement. SOE San Diego just couldn't figure out why which I attribute 100% to the partnership of development that Teesquared (SWG's then Producer) made with the current playerbase. The jury is still out as to if players want themepark or sandbox. We should see very well the current trend with all the upcoming sandboxes/ sandparks coming out in the next year. However, most of the themepark crowd is already playing the 1 large themepark they want and may indeed move for a short time to another "shiney" but quickly go right back after they find there is not the 10 years of post-launch content/expacs in which to enjoy as well. If your going to play a themepark, might as well play the largest, the best working, and the 1 with the most "nose-grabbing" dev installed content. The MMO players who are left, that don't like that style of gameplay at WoW are pretty much without a game other than AO now. However, with the coming year, that should change so we'll see. Will be an interesting time, to say the least. But according to the logic you present, EQN will not be that large either as EQ's mainstay playerbase was only 500K+ in the 1st place much like you discount SWG's 350K for it's time. Personally, I would, any day, rather have crafted items be the best in a game which creates a player driven economy rather than crafting be a unused sub-system to be ignored in favor of a never ending end-game gear grind. I have never needed a chance at a dropped item to get me to go play content and probably never will. If that means look for gas, then so be it, and I'll be just as happy to find that gas with the large QL numbers as I am to get that rare dropped item. Only with that gas, I would be able to create an item for myself, guildys/friends, and have some items left over to put in vendors for credits. We /agree on SWG's community which seemed to be a bit more mature than what themeparks draw. But, there is probably a reason for that "great community" that we both enjoyed in SWG as well.

But the simple equation is; cosmetics to sell "WELL", not compared to power, and never will. If they follow the Cryptic route, they will almost have to. Crafting is basicly down the drain in TOR now. Nice to have game systems that no1 uses and can't match drops? As I understand TOR Status uses actual counts at different times to get their numbers. Not just the "server status" site. SOE done that also, changed their numbers on the server status to make themselves look a bit better and Dallas was there for that so I would expect that to happen here also. The Cryptic forums erupted also. We lost long time players who made walkthrus and even net "radio" shows and Cryptic marched on. The same with the NGE, they thought they would get more players than the people who left. I hope for your sakes your right. I really do. I just haven't seen it in history, with any game Bioware could fix this game, they have the talent. I believe I mentioned Adept. However, they need to "change" their design criteria and ADD things to this game that all factions of different playerbases want/need to call it their own. Dallas did create one of the best leveling experiences to date in an MMO, credit where credit is due. Problem is, he left it at that and if your going to play a game for 8 years you end up wanting more than just a never ending gear grind (which throws crafting out the window anyway). A little sandbox would go along way in TOR. And sandbox has the advantage with it of NOT have people screaming "WHERE IS THE NEXT CONTENT?" the day the last bit of content/patch came out. Will be interesting at the least to see if he does it. After all, even Smed, who said "sandbox is dead" after NGE, just came out with "EQNext will be the largest sandbox ever created".

Cryptic started out this way as well. Even the +1 ships had a grind at 1 time (excel and the def) Then, they found out that people did the grind to get them and didn't hit the store as much as they wanted. Then the grind went magicly away. It's almost inevitable. As the playerbase drops even due to simple attrition, their cost requirements (overheads) remain the same. And power sells. You've already got the lockboxes, I would imagine there is more to come. TOR Status is now about down to the numbers just before the merges. I bet it's going to be faster than most people believe, but here's watching to see if history will repeat itself.

You do notice that I said "the Cryptic version of P2W" didn't you? However Cryptic started out the same way. Pure cosmetics, then the added a crusier with 3 slots of tac, then another a bit better, and another, and so on, and so on. They made their tests and found out that power sells and sells large. Then came power in the lock boxes (believe you have a TOR version of those) and the power was delegated to a very costly lottery. Cryptic doesn't even make any bones about P2W now, in fact their quite proud of it. I'm sure Nagus can tell you as well. Now, over there, the ONLY way to further progress your toon is straight out of the store. Bioware is making their "test" store deals also. You'll find more and more of it, I'm quite sure. That's the problem with F2P, they continually have to come up with bigger and better items that sell in order to make the "rent" so to speak. I don't blame devs as they have to make a living also but it sure can defeat game systems like crafting (see STO) and PVP (if you like such things). In fact, a Cryptic dev came to the PVP forums over there and made the statement "we could take PVP out of the game and no-one would even notice". Really good game design there, wouldn't you say?

Guess you had to be there. Your right, jedi wasn't in the game when it came out but was added very quickly thereafter. However, the grind (and figuring out what to grind took quite a while as well). JTL wasn't in the game at launch either, but was the 1st expansion which came very quickly as well. (They still had Koster then and that guy certainly can design and build a game) I was one of the 1st to unlock on Kauri, way back when (not the 1st but in the top 10 I would imagine) and the choices the game gave you via the skillboxes was incredible for it's time, however you chose at the cost of something else. I had all 4 master crafters. I ended up playing those even more than I played the main. There was always the looking for those max materials, getting the better skilltapes/35's in NGE, the bit better set up to break the so-called server cap for what was thought of as max crafted items (the jedi's 8 man-group gunboat had all null-bolts at 99% min damage/100% max damage for guns), and then there was keeping the jedi in pure credits. I had several toons at max credits, 1 bil on the toon, 1 bil in the bunker, and 1 bil in the bank. While I certainly mastered the crafting part of JTL I never quite got there with the armorsmith for capps even after 8 years. That's the kind of game that was. Not to even mention I had a tier 5 city on Bria after the server merge (New Solah, Naboo) a capped guild to run which some1 was always needing something, and grinds I had not even started in any large fashion (kill collections). All kind of pets, both NGE and pre-CU, a bunker and hanger that was on the server lists of must-sees, etc. I think the largest asset was the game was what YOU made it. If you were looking for devs to lead you by the nose thru their created content, SWG was not the game for you. However, if the person had any creativity at all, the limits were endless. SWG was living in the world, themeparks are playing in their world, at least to me anyway. The game lost players with EVERY large change/re-design that the playerbase incurred, About 70% at all 3 of them (CU,NGE,C6CD) Months after the change it would rebound a bit but SOE/LA couldn't let it lie and ended up with another round of changing the core aspects of the game. Interesting to note here, that when Teesquared took over as Producer and started talking/listening to/developing for the playerbase the game started picking up subs again. I still remember SOE San Diego making a comment about the game gaining subs but they just had no idea why. T2 knew and knew will,

How you doing, Nagus? Haven't seen you since STO. And I hope it does outlast SWG. I have my doubts but if Bioware gets on the ball and developes systems and gameplay that people want, and mix that with what they already have, get off the Cryptic version of P2W in their store, they will have a boat-load larger chance.

2nd coming? Hardly. A Star Wars world to play in with friends who were like minded, you bet. A game with the freedom to let me make my jedi the way I wanted to, use which saber I wanted to, to "own" and operate a small portion of the game world, to make decisions with playstyle/etc and then have to live with them, to PVP open world, to operate my own "game" economy, etc. Yeah, I liked those too. SWG was a bit unique in that manner, but it was advertised as that......., as the advertisement went, the last word was "yours". Not some developers idea of a cookie cutter/mirrored professions where every1 is exactly the same or gameplay that bears nothing except the never ending gear grind. TOR's and Dallas' problem is that the game they made already exists and has millions of subs but has about 10 years post launch content included as well. Why would those millions leave that to start all over? They might come check it out but when they find more "content" where they left, it's right back out again (which happened at TOR's launch). As for moving on, I certainly have. There's the flightless bird and there's other "sandboxes" in which to sub to. Currently have a year sub to AO, in fact.

To be honest, I believe EA made the 1st large mistake by killing SWG (via LA raising their IP fees which EA asked for and got) for no competition for this game. That very situation caused a boat-load of hate and discontent at the start of this game via the fans EA/Bioware needed for this game. And, as many are probably aware, SWG vets can hold a grudge for years upon years, post about their discontent on EVERY forum that will let them, keep the "word of mouth" advertising going years after, and really not tire of any of it. I still see comments here about CU/NGE/C6CD (the changes that SWG went thru via bad management from SOE) in this very thread. The above didn't surprise me one bit tho. Dallas Dickerson et al (up to his elbows in the NGE and worked for SOE Austin, in fact I remember him well from his old SOE days - how could any1 forget) was one of the top decision makers at Bioware and his/their bad decisions continue up to this date. They also got a few of the "better developers" from SWG/SOE as well. Adept-strain is over here also and he has got to be one of Bioware's best assets. The problem is, they need a Bioware version of T-2 (and Adept could probably fill this position) as producer running the place that actually listens, developes for, and talks to the playerbase with more than the SOE dev speak of "tinfoil hat" remarks or the SOE adage of "ignore them, they'll go away" attitudes. Dickerson wasn't around SOE the last 2 years and didn't see the partnership between the playerbase and what was left of the SOE Austin that was actually working on SWG. So he never learned how to do it. Adept did tho and Bioware would be smart to include this resume on their decision makers now. I'm on a 7 day free sub deal and I really doubt that 7 days will convince me to sub to TOR again. I've kinda kept up with the additions they have made to TOR since launch and it all looks like more of the same design, to me anyway. I left shortly after launch and I have to admit I'm still a little ticked off about the way EA handled SOE/SWG still, as well. I don't wish this game to die, just really couldn't care less, to be honest. I'm still very familiar with losing a game that you played for years and years and wouldn't wish that on anyone.

This is probably one of the most constructive threads I believe I've ever seen in MMO forums. Thank you OP for starting it. The real test is if BioWare reads it, listens to what the players/former players are saying, learns, and develops accordingly. Wife and 1 friend from SWG went back to WoW. To be honest, I never liked WoW as I tried it back in 06 after NGE. But, they both stayed on me, as I wasn't playing anything really (after TOR) so I hit the free to 20 on WoW. What I found was the feeling that I played that game before. I played it here with my main to 50, another to 26, and a couple to around 10. The only difference is, in WoW, most everything works, the balance with even NPCs is done well, there are no delays in firing specials or problems with the engine, etc etc etc. Paladin at 16 atm and with the heals the toon does feel powerful (same as my SWG Jedi in that game), the amount of attacks (at this level at least) is manageable (3 attacks so far along with auto). I have no idea if this will keep up but looking at what the trainer offers it doesn't seem like all that much more will be coming or at least it will not end up like it was here with 4 tookbars of stuff that never light up due to this or that had to happen 1st. I have to admit that I never liked playing a TOR jedi guard, it just felt gimped in every way, and it just flew all over me when I seen even trash mobs heal full well knowing that my TOR jedi couldn't. Is there enough in WoW for a former 7 year player of SWG? I doubt it. No housing, crafting is no where near as complex, end game is raiding/PVP, etc. So I have no idea if I'll stay over there either. But, what Bliz has done is make a game that works well for what it is. I now see why the WoW clones do not survive and mostly suffer the same situation we see in TOR now. There is no sense in playing WoW with another skin when the original is out, has so much more content, more levels, larger worlds, and simply works so much better.

The SWG events were certainly fun and Pex was extremely good at it. If SWG was still up, I'd be over there now. I remember 1 deal that Pex did by "kidnapping" a player out of ME, took the player to the dath prison and dared us to come and get him. Pex played a level 500 dark jedi and he spawned a boat-load of stormys (the kind that came with Vader) and we must of had 100+ players beating on "her" until "she" went down. Then they awarded some specials, items, and titles for participation for ev1. This was on Bria. LA, you missed a good one here. Sad to think that TOR might just have been the best advertisment and draw for SWG since SOE's game launched.

/agree Altho no1 wants to lose their game. And when it starts, as we seen in SWG, some people will come up with just about anything or any excuse to put it off on some1 else to try and save "their game". To be honest, SWG's NGE and TOR have the exact same problem. The WoWification of a Star Wars game by some of the exact same developers. And the fact that these developers have the mindset that they're right and everyone else, including the lost subscriptions, is just wrong. Want to fix the problem? Get rid of these people who made the decisions then and now, bring in a new team that will actualy listen and develope to the playerbase.

I don't believe price would affect my decision either way. Having played SWG for all those years, I have come to the realisation that bugs are part of MMO gameplay. The TooW Beetle Cave entrance bug was there at the launch of the expansion, never fixed, and we just found the work-around for it. Bugs do not seem to bother me maybe as much as others. What does bother me and caused my unsub is the gameplay itself. The UI, the linear nature of everything in this game (leveling and endgame progression), the extreme difficulty with some things (others seem to be just right), the engine lag, the misfires in the UI, the inability of crafting in this game to even be needed/wanted so there is nothing outside of kill and more kill, the shear amount of specials (4 rows of keybinds and still not enough room?), and the basic vanilla WoWified design of TOR. If they can get most of that fixed, then I have no problem with 15 per/mo as that price is pretty cheap entertainment and I have tried F2P games and they all have their own set of problems.

Now that was funny. /applaud And Rift, STO, and (insert any other MMO here except for SWG).

/agree People that care enough to take the time to make that "goodbye" post seem interested in the game at least, want it to suceed, and really want to play it. They all have a rather glaring reason why they just can't at the time. They will ck back and if they see anything that offers them some hope, then a re-sub is probably in the cards. If nothing comes that takes care of their particuliar problem, then probably no re-sub will be had. I unsubed 4 times in SWG. 1 at CU, 2 at NGE, 3 at C6CD, and 4 when the closure announcment came. The reason why I went back, all 3 times, was some developer caught on enough to start adding back in "some" of what the players lost with all of these revamps. Will be the same for TOR I'd imagine as I like the IP, if developers catch on, I'll probably be back myself.

"Enjoyment" is subjective as are opinions. The problem comes up if way too many people are not experiencing your "enjoyment" and are htting that magical cancel button. That's starts a train wreck of sorts and as a former SWG player, you should know that really well. Things that need to be "fixed" to make the game more palletable for the masses but as the ever sliding subscription base lowers, the company has no choice but to lower the people they have working on the project, the "fixes" don't quite get made, get longer and longer in coming, or are not quite up to quality standards when they get there, more people leave, the dev team lowers even more, and so on, and so on, and so on. We seen it in SWG, only there it was bad decisions and remakes of the game. (removeing the "Koster goodness" and the WoWifcation of SWG) Here, it's more bad decisions in the creation of the game in trying to make the ultimate WoW clone with lightsabers (same problem and dev mindset). Interesting note tho, it ends up being some of the exact same people that made BOTH of these mistakes in BOTH games that pretty much causes the exact same train wreck. (dwindling subs) I played SWG as well, for a long, long time. If it was up now, I'd be over there atm. I believe the "complainers" have valid reasoning and of cource it's their money their spending or not spending. Most have left really good info for BioWare Austin just like the leaving people left good information for SOE. SOE, until T2, never bothered to listen to them. The jury's still out on if BioWare will but I have to admit that I see nothing that offers even a glimmer of hope as yet. They announce in the 1st quarter a sub loss of 400K. (box car #2) They just let go a bunch of "worker bees" that would enable them to "fix" the current issues (box car #3 just left the track) and retained the large $ folks who made these bad decision in place to continue with business as usual. (box car 4) More spin coming from these guys, Super servers, without saying super servers, as nothing more than an excuse why servers will be going from 200 to 10 or 20. (box car #5) Sorry, but I watched this with SWG. Don't believe I have it in me to do it all over again. 4 days left on account, and I went back to STO. Same WoWified type game, with some of the same problems as here but I have a lifetime and it's free. I /agree with you about games with elves in them. Note tho, With a 3 day weekend and alot of time for gaming, yesterday I played Romance of the Three Kingdoms III for about 5 hours. An old SNES game.

Nope. But I will ck in on the forums from time to time and watch for patch notes that help the game out. I do actualy figure that in a year or so with some post launch content/fixes/redesign, this will probably be a good game to come back to.

I watched STO go F2P. 1st, the F2P version of CU/NGE happened as Cryptic thought it best to NERF every character/ship/power/skill point that was existing along with most prices doubling in the existing store. They did this so they didn't have to rebalance PVE when they introduced all these great items to the C-Store (P2W). The "+1" ships (P2W) with all the great little consoles, then ships with more console slots (stats). However, that didn't seem to make enough $ or they just could not get enough of these types of items past the IP holder, it this case CBS. After that came the "gambleing". Lock boxes drop in game, EVERYWHERE, that you had to go buy "keys" for to open these things. Instead of buying the item, you bought a very small CHANCE to buy the item. Most, who wanted these things, bought alot of keys and NEVER got the item advertised that could be in them. Now, the entire game is baraged with lock boxes and not even to mention that LARGE MESSAGE SPAM that so and so just got a frengi ship (out of a lockbox). No1 even knows if the spammed message is actualy a player or not even, or just a way to "make you want to head for the C-Store for more keys". The STO producer makes comments in interviews that the actual content, the 4 quest lines that are being added about 1 per year now, are just too expensive so there are threads over there on if players were being told that future content, such as this, was not coming and the only development to look forward to would be included in the C-Store. But the "best" thing (and the most laughable) I seen out of F2P is the dev announcement that PVP was broken (they just couldn't get much money out of that style of gameplay) as most people who PVPed decided to "outlaw" all the P2W items (or most of them anyway) out of their matches. Soooooo, Gozer (Cryptic developer) anounced that he was doing a complete revamp on PVP and if any1 didn't like it the alternative was to take ALL PVP gameplay out of their game. "Take it leave it" basicly. You actualy want that?

/cheer I believe you've hit the entire problem with SW:TOR. It's the basic design mentality and/or mindset of the lead developers/producers that is 100% of the problem with subs, the game, what is being added, and what is being taken away (NERFed/CHANGED). Some of these guys had this EXACT SAME mindset over at SWG with the CU and NGE. No need for a roll-back. They were totally right, just ask them, they'll tell you. Instead of protecting the playerbase(s) they had, they were willing to sacrifice each and every one of them to get an elusive playerbase that never showed. And when it cratered? It was marketing's fault. Couldn't be theirs. (Source - Rubenfield blog) And it would seem they're still looking for that elusive playerbase that still hasn't shown up even with a completly new game. They brought this mentality with them from SOE, learned it over there, and never stuck around long enough for even Smedley having to admit and apoligise for his and their mistakes. BioWare/EA let the wrong people go. Instead of the worker bees that were just following orders and doing what they were told, these guys who made the wrong decisions in the 1st place needed to reap the rewards of their so-called sucesses and/or the lack of it. And TOR will suffer further until some1 at the head of BioWare gets smart and does exactly that. Until then? It will just be more of the same. Spin, such as "hey we're going to give you super-servers" as a way of explaining how the server counts go from 200 to 20 or 10. Just like "the NGE is the best thing since sliced bread".

Think your right on the money here. There wasn't too many servers at launch. There was the exact right amount. It's been reported that BW sold 2.4 million+ boxes and there is no reason to believe that every one of these sold people did not try the game, all at the same time. That amount of people and servers at launch gave BW the title of "best launch" ever. The problem came up when the gameplay didn't quite live up to the expectations/hype. So people left without subbing after their 30 days that came with the box. That hit the servers. Then, people found gameplay repetitious, nothing really new (you can only really do so much with click on 5 flashys or kill 30 npcs anyway), and the servers and the sub count were hit again. Now the problem remains that end game is very limited, linear, gated by shear difficulty, and all of that has now taken it's toll also. The "new" games are just symptomatic in that they just provided another option for a playerbase that was already bored and/or gated via difficulty and/or population from experiencing what content there was left to do. My ENTIRE guild is now gone. I fully admit it was a small group (about 40) that came over from SWG and the reason that every person left is a bit different to all of them. We lost the 1st ones due to game difficulty. They couldn't progress on their own and did not like the fact they had to ask for help on just about EVERY class quest boss. This seemed to happen more with Jedi Knight classes than everything else. Even the JK forums has thread after thread listing JK as the "hardest" prof to level but the IP draw for this class was probably larger than just about any of the 4 classes in the game. Almost every SWG player who played a jedi over there really looked foward to the class over here for no other reason than dual weilding. It was asked for many a time over there but TOR fulfilled that request. However, when you can dual wield and you still die time after time, it becomes a frustration and the "coolness" factor wears thin fast. At 50, we lost ALL the rest of them. Some due to just shear repetition of dailys, some due to difficulty of HM flashpoints, and others due to crafting was just such an un-needed joke of a system. I don't believe that this guild completed a single HM of all of them and suddenly there wasn't even enough players to even try left. Not many of us played WoW before so the raiding mindset just wasn't there to begin with. What games did we chose to replace TOR? That's kinda a mix as well. A few of us, me included, went back to STO even with it's F2P, NGE-ed, and P2W status. A couple even went to WoW to try that. A few more are waiting on TSW. None tried Diablo. Most all of us spent the large bucks for the CE (I bought 2 for me and the wife) and looked forward to playing this game together as we had in SWG for years. After this, I highly doubt that all of us will ever get together again for a long term situation (years) like we had in SWG. It looks to me that if they do not fix the reason(s) why people are leaving this game, in droves, that their server merges/super servers will just be more of the same. They will thin out by shear sub loss boredom/problems and you guys who are left will be doing this again in another 5 or 6 months.

These devs pretty much knew how to do a very simuliar combat system as some of them did the NGE combat system in SWG which was manual aiming. Altho, to get the engine to even have a chance of keeping up, things like knockdowns went straight out the window in the NGE. (and the profession that used them - RIP TKM) Kinda amazes me when games like TERA tout this "new, great", combat system that pretty much SWG had way back when in Nov 15th of 2005 even. It's even a bit more amazing when players tout it as the biggest thing since sliced bread and there was a game that included it for that long as well.

SWG - Euro-Chim - Waverunner R.I.P. (from your signature) Because SWG isn't, I would imagine.

I believe the start of the demise happened when BioWare hired all those NGE devs from SOE. They had an idea of what would make a game sucessful (WoW copy), they wouldn't listen to the playerbase or reason over there even when the playerbase left in droves and that "new, wanted" playerbase didn't show up, they knew they were right and that everyone else was just screwed up, and they left before even the pres. of SOE had to admit that the entire process was a mistake that SWG couldn't recover from. TOR, the ultimate NGE, made by the ultimate NGE development team, and the resultant "WoW with lightsabers". 2/3rds of the playerbase left over there in just a matter of a few short months and now history is repeating itself with the launch of this game.