They say there is no endgame...

[Chromiie]

People are NEVER happy and all they do is complain...... over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

 

Heh take your advice and don't come to the forums.

[SWImara]

A great deal of encounters in WoW contradict this statement.

 

That's two in a row who don't understand my point.

 

zzzzzzzzzzz

Perhaps I did miss your point, on re-reading I see you are noting some standard generalizations about most folks not being up to a challenge etc. I definitely agree with that in part, the problem is that one can't design content that is "challenging" for everyone while not barring some from experiencing it. Plenty (arguably the majority, I have no data to back this up) of players don't have that competent dependable group of players all playing to their maximum potential that would be necessary for quality "challenging" group endgame content. So either that material ends up dumbed down or it is for a tiny subset of the community who will chew through anything that is put before them anyway. Thus why would it benefit a developer to make content challenging when neither group will be pleased with that whereas on the other hand they could make the material "easy" and at least please one of the groups.

 

This isn't however just an issue of PvE game design, I'd argue it is a broader issue of game design in general. When PCs only reward is gear and the focus (as in SWTOR) is just the next tier of stuff to do to get the next set of gear, ultimately you have content being developed only for a portion of the game base and worse still you have content designed with a terminal point. Once a person has grinded all of their gear, they are "done" and as glad as I am for PvE/PvP gear separation this issue is definitely compounded by that separation. Once a person has "beaten" the game and has all of their end game gear... what do they do with it?

 

I'd argue that in their future "end game" design BW would do well to move away from the standard gear grind to attempt something different. The gear grind keeps people's attention for a while, but it will certainly never keep the attention of the grind-happy portion of the gaming community.

[CygnisJunior]

WoW made you farm for your mats, level fishing, play side games for pets, and lets not forget about achievements. There is hours and hours right there.

 

So your analogy is pretty stupid.

 

I don't share my opinions too much on these forums, and I know this is a billion pages back so no one will ever see it.

 

However I feel the burning desire to say if you think grinding and freakin' FISHING are end game content, perhaps this is not the mmo for you! I figured this mmo was supposed to get rid of all of that unnecessary content and just allow players to focus on the fun aspects of the game.

 

And actually a bunch of mastercraft gear is better itemized than columi. Go browse the auction house for those, or go grab a new crafting profession and grind out mastercrafts yourself!

[Norbix]

... the problem is that one can't design content that is "challenging" for everyone while not barring some from experiencing it.

 

Personally, I feel like Ulduar had it perfect. The normal modes were slightly difficult, as it took average guilds one to two months to complete it all. The hard modes were scalable, so that everyone could get the exact challenge they need. I don't recall anyone complaining about how difficult the normal modes were, and pretty much everybody was satisfied and it lasted for months. TOR needs operations built like Ulduar. Normal mode should not be a walkover, and hard modes should be scalable to keep everyone busy. The main issue I feel is with the difficulty of the normal modes. As long as those are as easy as they are it literally kills motivation to progress further because one can get a cool looking set of gear without trying, and FAST.

[SnuggleNsmuggle]

I play 5 hours of this game a week. I still have worlds of content to explore.

 

It isn't about the destination, it's the journey.

[Yescek]

They might consider ripping off the Chronicle Master system from SWG. UGC, and it was awesome if you got them from a good Chronicler. Also, it was VERY useful as a teaching tool because you could in essence make a quest that would step someone through an Instance so that they'd get instructions from the quest rather than needing it spelled out for them.

[SWImara]

Personally, I feel like Ulduar had it perfect. The normal modes were slightly difficult, as it took average guilds one to two months to complete it all. The hard modes were scalable, so that everyone could get the exact challenge they need. I don't recall anyone complaining about how difficult the normal modes were, and pretty much everybody was satisfied and it lasted for months. TOR needs operations built like Ulduar. Normal mode should not be a walkover, and hard modes should be scalable to keep everyone busy. The main issue I feel is with the difficulty of the normal modes. As long as those are as easy as they are it literally kills motivation to progress further because one can get a cool looking set of gear without trying, and FAST.

What about below-average guilds or even the random unguilded weirdos. I think that the aim for normal modes should be PUG and hard modes the average-competent guild, and I think that's the core of our disagreement. I don't think that normal modes should be a walkover, but then PUGs do tend to be of "varying" competence, I think the idea in the later versions of end game content (really wish we could use an example other than WoW) was to make it widely accessible to everyone. This is really not palatable to hardcore raiders, but honestly I think that mainstream games are (justly to a degree) done catering only to that group. There is literally no pleasing this group and design made with them in mind tends to exist to the detriment of the rest of the player base.

 

Personally I don't care about people's PvE gear (as I'm a PvPer) but the grinding new gear model of end game has struck me as flawed and pointless for a long time. As mentioned before, I do raid, but any time I do it I hit this point (typically when I've got like 3/4 of my gear) where I'm like "...wait why on earth am I doing this? This gear is all going to be worthless with the next expansion anyway"

[Kelenae]

Honestly OP. I think its a good time to take a break from the game. There are other games to play at this moment. Your at the inbetween of content patches that all MMO's goes through as well once you get through all the end game content being done. Its very normal to feel the way you feel. Just take a break, then come back when 1.2 is out. Then you have new content to go through. Maybe a new tier of gear, Rated Warzones, and other unannouced things.

[skorpius]

Well... after first disagree'ing with them... I now agree.

 

After you've done all the HM FP's and your 2 ops and a few pvp games, there is nothing else really to do for the next 5 days.... except level a alt.. but that is not endgame.

 

Bio, you really need to work on this next content patch. And no, another FP, Op or Space Mssion is not the answer, we are looking for something different.

 

Aaa,, this is a story driven game, there are 8 stories have you done them all, and if not then why did you buy this game? They told us from the get go that it was story driven.

 

???

[cdstephen]

It'll take you a few weeks to get Nightmare mode done.

 

At the same time though, it's more of the same since there are no additional mechanics...

[MrLeee]

Heh take your advice and don't come to the forums.

 

But I wanna!!!!!

 

QQ

[nothingavailable]

There is end game. Its just not worth the time and energy to do it. Daily's isnt end game thats work. Takes too long to put togethor a pve group. And pvp is never balanced. The match shouldnt start unless its 10v10. 120 seconds of getting dominated by twice as many opponents isnt pvp. Its a waste of time.

[Napalmbrain]

Yes it was, seen plenty of articles about it costing upwards of $500mil.

 

Until Bio comes out and says exactly what it costs, we are both wrong.

 

If this is true I am even more blown away by how bad this game is for the amount of time and money used to make it.

 

Last I heard it was 200, but 500? Wow, epic fail Bioware.

[Redru]

Well... after first disagree'ing with them... I now agree.

 

After you've done all the HM FP's and your 2 ops and a few pvp games, there is nothing else really to do for the next 5 days.... except level a alt.. but that is not endgame.

 

Bio, you really need to work on this next content patch. And no, another FP, Op or Space Mssion is not the answer, we are looking for something different.

 

I completely agree. 10/10 in nightmare/hardmode in operations takes our goup 3 1/2 hours to do. Hardmode flashpoints? we did them one time only to see them. Why would I do them over and over and over again? to see the same thing over and over?

 

Rated warzones is a start. Arena would be another good idea, but those are pvp answers.

 

PVE answers are tricky. First off, you actually need to make hard content. Nightmare operations are so easy they are not working. So once you have hard content that is very hard, you need to maybe do what age of conan did with guild cities. Have your guild participate in the long process of 'building your city' over the course of a few months. This city should be in an instance with 2 other plots for cities belonging to other guilds. The resources are in this instance, but it's a free for all zone, meaning anyone not in your guild can be attacked. You get to fight for the resources. Each building (that takes a ton of resrouces) you build gives a very small passive buff. like 2% more HP, 2% more power, etc...

 

This gives us content. This is just one idea. There are a million others. This game as it stands is currently empty. I am full rakata minus chest and weapon. I am full battlemaster gear. I did this without effort. Without thought. I'm no superman, the 'game' is just that mindless.

 

Bad mmo design.

[Redru]

If this is true I am even more blown away by how bad this game is for the amount of time and money used to make it.

 

Last I heard it was 200, but 500? Wow, epic fail Bioware.

 

It's actually a bit less then 200 mil. No where near 500. Misinformation is misinformation.

[daeseer]

You want something different?

 

Try putting jello down your pants.

[rsencarn]

You choose, as a player, how quickly you consume content.

 

There is no way that the Developers can keep up with the hardcore players in terms of Flashpoints.

 

As far as PvP, that is a ridiculous statement. As many have stated before, I have played 2Fort or Goldrush maps for hours at a time in TF2. The setting is unimportant. The challenge of PvP combat is what should be drawing you back in.

 

As far as Ops, have you completed them on Nightmare Mode? 8-man? 16-man? They have subtle but noticeable differences.

 

I personally feel that Nightmare should be more challenging, but we still clear Normal and Nightmare each week without complaint.

 

I think you may be experiencing a low tolerance for the doldrums between content patches. It is pretty common in the development cycle. Look into a low-commitment alternative game that can entertain you when TOR starts getting stale.

[Heppuli]

It's funny how you except the devs to fetch the moon for you. This is an MMO, and MMO's have certain principles. If they go too far from those, then the people who LOVE and LIKE MMO concept run away. If you don't like running dungeons/flashpoints, doing raids/operations, or wz/bg, then perhaps swtor/wow (ANY MMO) is not meant for you. Really.

[Chromiie]

Personally, I feel like Ulduar had it perfect. The normal modes were slightly difficult, as it took average guilds one to two months to complete it all. The hard modes were scalable, so that everyone could get the exact challenge they need. I don't recall anyone complaining about how difficult the normal modes were, and pretty much everybody was satisfied and it lasted for months. TOR needs operations built like Ulduar. Normal mode should not be a walkover, and hard modes should be scalable to keep everyone busy. The main issue I feel is with the difficulty of the normal modes. As long as those are as easy as they are it literally kills motivation to progress further because one can get a cool looking set of gear without trying, and FAST.

 

Man I loved Ulduar.

 

Bioware can learn a lot from hardmode/nightmare encounters from Ulduar fights. Mirmiron normal difficulty was challenging the first few weeks for my guild and eventually we decided we wanted the 310% mount. I really liked actually having to activate hardmode fights.

 

The big tank boss leave all towers up which added crazy adds, an ice spell which would freeze you, fire aoes it was hectic, fun and crazy.

 

Mirmiron firefight achievement was a real ***** to get but man did it feel great to get it after weeks of learning the encounter and try all we can.

 

There was also the other big robot (can't remember the name) before the you entered Ulduar's interior. You had to have really good dps and destroy his heart causing the boss to heal and do more damage and basically restart the fight. It was great every week my guild would try to see how much our dps has improved.

 

It's terrible to see how easy normal mode Ops are and now there is nothing different from Normal to Hardmode to Nightmare. It's the same exact fight and no new mechanic(s) added.

[Heppuli]

Man I loved Ulduar.

 

Bioware can learn a lot from hardmode/nightmare encounters from Ulduar fights. Mirmiron normal difficulty was challenging the first few weeks for my guild and eventually we decided we wanted the 310% mount. I really liked actually having to activate hardmode fights.

 

The big tank boss leave all towers up which added crazy adds, an ice spell which would freeze you, fire aoes it was hectic, fun and crazy.

 

Mirmiron firefight achievement was a real ***** to get but man did it feel great to get it after weeks of learning the encounter and try all we can.

 

There was also the other big robot (can't remember the name) before the you entered Ulduar's interior. You had to have really good dps and destroy his heart causing the boss to heal and do more damage and basically restart the fight. It was great every week my guild would try to see how much our dps has improved.

 

It's terrible to see how easy normal mode Ops are and now there is nothing different from Normal to Hardmode to Nightmare. It's the same exact fight and no new mechanic(s) added.

 

1. Compare swtor to wow

2. Compare wz to bg

3. Compare ops to 2 years old raid

4. ????

5. Profit

 

If you so loved wow, go back there. I doubt there are many players who like spending weeks to get past one boss. Maybe couple of thousands, but not more. And I'm pretty sure sometime, Bioware will release a more harder version of ops to those who just like to die and learn.

[Norbix]

If you so loved wow, go back there. I

 

Funny you say that, since Bioware was heavily influenced by WoW in creating this game in the first place.

 

doubt there are many players who like spending weeks to get past one boss.

 

Nice exaggerating.

[asmox]

It was also made 7 years ago. It was the pioneer, the prototype.

 

A game made today of the same calibre, 7 years later, more is expected of it, much more, not the same.

 

wrong. plain wrong. wow was not a prototype, or a pioneer... it was a conglomeration of other games on the market.

[Norbix]

What about below-average guilds or even the random unguilded weirdos. I think that the aim for normal modes should be PUG and hard modes the average-competent guild, and I think that's the core of our disagreement. I don't think that normal modes should be a walkover, but then PUGs do tend to be of "varying" competence, I think the idea in the later versions of end game content (really wish we could use an example other than WoW) was to make it widely accessible to everyone. This is really not palatable to hardcore raiders, but honestly I think that mainstream games are (justly to a degree) done catering only to that group. There is literally no pleasing this group and design made with them in mind tends to exist to the detriment of the rest of the player base.

 

Personally I don't care about people's PvE gear (as I'm a PvPer) but the grinding new gear model of end game has struck me as flawed and pointless for a long time. As mentioned before, I do raid, but any time I do it I hit this point (typically when I've got like 3/4 of my gear) where I'm like "...wait why on earth am I doing this? This gear is all going to be worthless with the next expansion anyway"

 

Below average players can get carried. Why should normal modes be made for PUG'ing whilst Bioware makes it so difficult to create PUG's in the first place? Operations haven't been PUG'd at all on my server, and I don't see it happening, either. The only PUG's that happen are hard mode Black Talon. But if a sacrifice has to be made, a PUG level of operation should be there for exploratory reasons primarily and not for loot.

[TirGavin]

My highest level character is a 48 Jedi Consular Sage Telekineticist. I'm not even to endgame yet. I've specifically avoided most of the endgame stuff like space dailies, ground dailies. I've only done 1 flash point, the Esseles, twice. That way all this stuff is fresh and new when I hit 50 and do them on HM.

 

I didn't expect BW to have tons of endgame, and I'm happy to wait until they do get more out. I hope they take their time and make everything they provide as high quality as all the other stuff I've done on the way to 48.

[Valkirus]

wrong. plain wrong. wow was not a prototype, or a pioneer... it was a conglomeration of other games on the market.

 

But they did a lot of things better than others. And still do.

 

That said, how much "end game" content in a MMO is also based on the player's attitude and how they want to spend thier time and effort. As far as the story goes...of course there is a end to the chapters until BW comes out with some content updates or expansions. This is to be expected.