The Sky is Falling...

[Evilpingu]

Due to recent announcements regarding making Level 50 PvP even a fraction more accessible to those without Champion/Battlemaster gear, all players who DO have such gear will be given replacement "Q" keys for their keyboards. Thank you.

 

I'm sure everyone has seen the 1.1.2 dev tracker post which made reference to level 50 PvP today: (click here if you missed it). To quote the offending paragraph:

 

As part of this effort, specifically for PvP, we are also working on changes that will reduce the gear related power difference between new characters at level 50 and players in full PvP gear. We feel that at the current time, this difference is too high.

 

Perhaps I'm going blind in my old age, but I fail to see the comment which states current PvP gear is being nerfed, or even changed. In fact I read between the lines to translate: "We are reducing the chasm between those with gear and those trying to get it, to make it a more fun experience". It is a game, after all, and is meant to be entertaining regardless of how good you are or how much time you can commit to playing.

 

The outpouring of comments on these forums has cheered up my Thursday immeasurably, so thanks to all whose tears participated in that one. Some personal faves:

 

"Do you know how hard I worked for...X/Y/Z item(s)??"

Oh please, the game has been out for what...6 weeks? And you've likely been grinding gear for around a month. This does not constitute hard work.

 

"Why should new players get to avoid what we all went through to get gear??"

Aaaa...haha. I'd wager a huge portion of those with their Valor 60 and T3 pvp gear managed to grind out a competitive set of Centurion/Champion mix on poor lowly level 10-49's before the bracket change. And we all remember how much fun THAT was? Right? Oh, yes...none whatsoever.

 

"Omg PvE Noobs coming into my Warzone and one-shotting everyone!!"

All aboard the fine vessel Knee-Jerk Reaction, helmed by none other than Capt'n Dramatic! Quite a reaching comment for something which hasn't happened, or even been mentioned yet.

 

Look - joking and sarcasm aside, Level 50 PvP is not very fun and even less accessible without gear right now. Most people who are raging mad about any changes to make it easier are likely those who already got their gear...via an easier route than exists today.

 

There's a reason a huge portion of PvPers reroll an alt for the 10-49 bracket when they hit 50. It's not fun, it's not balanced and it's too easy for baddies who had time to grind their gear early on to hide behind that gear now. Why would anybody who is interested in competitive, Player-versus-Player combat based on skill (ie: true PvPers) be against levelling the playing field a little?

Edited February 2, 2012 by Evilpingu

[Flowerslayer]

They are basically just saying they will balance tweak endgame pvp a bit and people get all worked up about it, declaring the end of pvp and whatnot. Its pretty pathetic, lol.

 

Its good to see there are still intelligent people out there that dont base their conclusions on ridiculous assumptions. Good post OP.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Flowerslayer

[JeffSHill]

----Disclaimer----

This is my opinion, which pretty much goes without saying because I am the author. I wanted to add this part because someone seems to think it is valid to any post to have a disclaimer at the beginning. Congratulations captain obvious.

 

 

I only came to the forums recently during some downtime at work. I've been pretty disappointed.

 

Some facts:

 

My Character is level 38.

 

I have not done a single thing except PvP since level 20. I am Valor Rank 38 (damn the cap).

 

I preferred the "everyone bracket" when I could play alongside my friends that were 50.

 

I don't think there is a true measurement of Skill in any PvP game. Experience/time played outweighs any real measure of "skill". Plus how much skill does it take to mash the correct buttons at the correct time? If this is your only measure of how "good" you are, you have already failed life.

 

 

What I have read since coming to this forum is that certain people are looking for a skill based PvP experience but are summarily pained by the idea that balancing the gear indifference is a bad thing. This supports the fact that they really don't want a skill based system, they simply want to farm easy kills from under-geared players. Others actually want a skill based system and are the minority so they are not speaking up on the matter or simply don't care.

 

With the above stated opinion that there is no such thing as a true measure of skill, I really don't care either way. I'm glad the devs are doing what they can to make PvP an enjoyable experience. I hate the idea of PvE in the name of PvP. Read: Ilum. I love the PvP leveling (valor) as a sub-system of true leveling in this game.

 

I think people get confused with the term PvP. It simply means Player vs. Player. It does not mean some kind of weird virtual turf war where one side can take over and bend the will of the other. That's real war. If you want that, go join the military of some aggressor country and have a ball. I enjoy all of the Warzones in this game and the overall PvP experience. All the yacking about gear turns me off more than the actual experience.

[Jiblol]

"Do you know how hard I worked for...X/Y/Z item(s)??"

Oh please, the game has been out for what...6 weeks? And you've likely been grinding gear for around a month. This does not constitute hard work."

 

5 star post op.

 

all this "hard work" being done in a video game... oh god, my sides!

[JeffSHill]

Oh...

 

Forgot a point.

 

Devs,

 

When you are done with your "balancing" can you try to address falling through the walls or floor in Huttball? Every time someone falls through a wall or floor in a close Huttball match and is forced to watch him/herself fall for the rest of the time remaining, and angel loses their wings.

 

We're making heaven a flightless environment.

 

Thanks

Edited February 2, 2012 by JeffSHill

[XParoleX]

Yeah some of us grinded it out legit. I didn't hit 50 till after the brackets and I leveled 10-50 in PVP so when I hit 50 I was already 50 Valor. I'm now a BM and at only 9 BM bags a week with the RNG makes getting to 60 valor and getting the gear a grind!

 

So until you hit 60 valor and gear up please don't comment on how easy it is!

Edited February 2, 2012 by XParoleX

[Evilpingu]

Yeah some of us grinded it out legit. I didn't hit 50 till after the brackets and I leveled 10-50 in PVP so when I hit 50 I was already 50 Valor. I'm now a BM and at only 9 BM bags a week with the RNG makes getting to 60 valor and getting the gear a grind!

 

So until you hit 60 valor and gear up please don't comment on how easy it is!

 

And Kudos to you. I think you misunderstand my post. Valor 50-60 right now is a HUGE grind, as is the terrible RNG-based bag/gear system. I make no comment to the contrary on that one.

 

For those who facerolled the 10-49 people as 50 in their Expertise-packed gear, and those who participated in "Ilum-gate" to get to Valor 60 in a single day, those people I aim my criticisms at.

[ZenBones]

So they're reducing the gear gap. Has anyone found out EXACTLY how they're doing this? If they're just reducing the effect of expertise, but all else remains the same, wouldn't that do what they're saying?

 

Haven't a lot of folks been begging for expertise to be removed or reduced?

[Vewdo]

Due to recent announcements regarding making Level 50 PvP even a fraction more accessible to those without Champion/Battlemaster gear, all players who DO have such gear will be given replacement "Q" keys for their keyboards. Thank you.

 

I'm sure everyone has seen the 1.1.2 dev tracker post which made reference to level 50 PvP today: (click here if you missed it). To quote the offending paragraph:

 

 

 

Perhaps I'm going blind in my old age, but I fail to see the comment which states current PvP gear is being nerfed, or even changed. In fact I read between the lines to translate: "We are reducing the chasm between those with gear and those trying to get it, to make it a more fun experience". It is a game, after all, and is meant to be entertaining regardless of how good you are or how much time you can commit to playing.

 

The outpouring of comments on these forums has cheered up my Thursday immeasurably, so thanks to all whose tears participated in that one. Some personal faves:

 

"Do you know how hard I worked for...X/Y/Z item(s)??"

Oh please, the game has been out for what...6 weeks? And you've likely been grinding gear for around a month. This does not constitute hard work.

 

"Why should new players get to avoid what we all went through to get gear??"

Aaaa...haha. I'd wager a huge portion of those with their Valor 60 and T3 pvp gear managed to grind out a competitive set of Centurion/Champion mix on poor lowly level 10-49's before the bracket change. And we all remember how much fun THAT was? Right? Oh, yes...none whatsoever.

 

"Omg PvE Noobs coming into my Warzone and one-shotting everyone!!"

All aboard the fine vessel Knee-Jerk Reaction, helmed by none other than Capt'n Dramatic! Quite a reaching comment for something which hasn't happened, or even been mentioned yet.

 

Look - joking and sarcasm aside, Level 50 PvP is not very fun and even less accessible without gear right now. Most people who are raging mad about any changes to make it easier are likely those who already got their gear...via an easier route than exists today.

 

There's a reason a huge portion of PvPers reroll an alt for the 10-49 bracket when they hit 50. It's not fun, it's not balanced and it's too easy for baddies who had time to grind their gear early on to hide behind that gear now. Why would anybody who is interested in competitive, Player-versus-Player combat based on skill (ie: true PvPers) be against levelling the playing field a little?

 

 

Why do people get so crazy when changes like this are going to be implemented. These changes are going into place because enough people (majority rules) feel that they need to be here. Its not like Bioware decided to screw over the people who have full pvp gear already. Its the fact that they saw a few people blow through the story, get the gear waaaay before people who took thier time. Now the new players are at a very unfair disadvantage to get thier gear as well. This change needs to be made, and if it were up to me this still isnt enough to fix the horrible pvp here.

[Cylide]

Go, OP!

[Ahhmyface]

I like gearing, and I don't mind these changes.

 

It doesn't matter if they nerf everyone to half damage, as long as everyone gets nerfed, its all the same stuff. You didn't lose anything for working for it. I'm battlemaster too, yknow. It's not like new 50s were rolling me. I think it's a good move.

[Libertine]

i wish people would stop voting 5 stars for their own threads...

[Modecrypt]

Yeah some of us grinded it out legit. I didn't hit 50 till after the brackets and I leveled 10-50 in PVP so when I hit 50 I was already 50 Valor. I'm now a BM and at only 9 BM bags a week with the RNG makes getting to 60 valor and getting the gear a grind!

 

So until you hit 60 valor and gear up please don't comment on how easy it is!

 

Ok.

 

Comment: Its really easy.

[deltaminus]

I already see IAs in WZs wearing the PvE 2pice for the 10% backstab damage. PvE gear is already creeping into WZs and whinny PvE players are gonna ruin the game for people who are playing this to PvP not PvE.

 

If I PvP, my gear should be just as good if not better then the equivalent PvE items. Humans are more challenging then the computah. To tell me I put no effort into winning games and thus got more bags/valor faster is a load of bull. PvP rewards skill, good players will always have a higher score and will always get more bags faster on account of this.

[Omnistarr]

I would like to start by commending you for creating such a good post. But, as much as I like the tone, content, and approach of your post, I'm going to have to disagree with you on its main point.

 

I played through early access, hit 50 two days after proper launch, and did a lot of start-and-stop PvP thereafter. After a couple of breaks, I noticed that the opposing faction had been grinding non-stop and had better gear that I did. I wanted to be competitive, so I endured the harsh and sometimes infuriating beatings and losses to get my commendations and complete daily missions. Now I've got my PvP gear (expertise), and when I go PvP, I tear other player's faces off. If I see a fresh level 50, I drop them in a matter of a few GCD cycles. The result of faceoffs with equally geared players depends largely on controller ability, cooldowns, class matchups, etc. And, in my opinion, that's the way that it should be. If a fresh level 50 wants to run in stride with the face-melters, they've got to put in the effort and take their hacks to get there.

 

It's not an elitist thing, it's a work thing. I am good at PvP and I am geared because I worked at it. If someone isn't good and isn't geared, they should get slaughtered in a warzone. This negative reinforcement encourages the player to get better. And, if the player really wants to be better, they will work at it and slowly start to find success. Then the gear comes and augments the skill that the player has developed. That's how it works in PvP and everything else in life.

 

Bioware should take a lesson from the United States in this instance. If you give anything to people whom are too lazy or untalented to earn it, you end up with an overly-entitled population that will abuse their "entitlement" at every opportunity and continually ask for more. This devalues the earnings of those whom are properly motivated and/or talented and discourages them. The result is a net loss in utility, because the earnings have been effectively redistributed. So, for the layman, those who worked for more end up with less and those who haven't worked for as much (if anything) have more.

[OldManRelic]

/snip

 

I don't think there is a true measurement of Skill in any PvP game. Experience/time played outweighs any real measure of "skill". Plus how much skill does it take to mash the correct buttons at the correct time? If this is your only measure of how "good" you are, you have already failed life.

 

/snip

 

Yeah! I say the same thing about Yo Yo Ma! All he's doing is mashing strings down on a cello and moving a bow back and forth. How hard can it be?

 

Same thing about those guys who can hit a human-sized target with a rifle at 1500m! All they do is pull a trigger. How hard could it be?

Edited February 2, 2012 by OldManRelic

[OldManRelic]

It's not an elitist thing, it's a work thing. I am good at PvP and I am geared because I worked at it. If someone isn't good and isn't geared, they should get slaughtered in a warzone. This negative reinforcement encourages the player to get better. And, if the player really wants to be better, they will work at it and slowly start to find success. Then the gear comes and augments the skill that the player has developed. That's how it works in PvP and everything else in life.

 

No. It encourages new players to not bother playing. Skill can be learned. Getting ROFL-stomped because of a gear gap that gets worse over time makes people avoid PvP.

[Fubik]

I really don't se what all these good/skilled people have against evening the odds.

[Evilpingu]

I would like to start by commending you for creating such a good post. But, as much as I like the tone, content, and approach of your post, I'm going to have to disagree with you on its main point...

 

Thanks to you too for a well-constructed response. We remain in disagreement but I respect your opinion. I even agree with you, to a certain point at least. My concern with PvP gear right now is twofold:

 

1. The only two deciding variables for getting the best PvP gear are: Time invested and Luck.

2. If you have one of, or neither of the above, your chances of being able to compete effectively are reduced dramatically.

 

Your argument is that due to the time you've invested in PvP you should have a competitive advantage over people who have put in less hours. No arguments from me here, I hope whatever changes they implement to "close the gap" between fresh-50 and Battlemaster-50 does not make it a completely level field. Else, for those who PvP for progression, where's the incentive?

 

I'm going to presume a couple of things here - firstly, you hit 50 just two days after official launch so it's fair to assume that you got at least some Centurion/Champion gear before the 50-only bracket hit. Secondly, not everyone was as geared when that bracket appeared as they are now.

 

Now let me say, I do not take anything away from you fighting other 50's in the old, pre-bracket Warzones. I'm sure fighting 50s with a lot of gear was just as frustrating as it is for the rest of us right now. That being said, for every geared 50 who pissed you off I'm sure there was a level 12 or two just swept aside without a second thought.

 

I represent the flip-side of your point of view. I too am a good PvPer and have a lot of MMO experience. I am not, nor do I claim to be an elite top-flight PvP player or the best at anything, but I understand tactics, strategies and how to play the game against other people. I leveled slowly having limited time to give to the game from release, plus wanting to see the story. I spent a enough time in Warzones to hit valor 41 when my character hit level 50 (just over a week ago).

 

As a fresh 50 in the 50-bracket now I find I cannot compete. The driving force behind this lack of competitiveness is a lack of gear. From my 6 Champion bags at 50 I got 18 centurion commendations and nothing else, so I was forced into Warzones with 0 expertise and just over 12,000hp. I am obliterated in a matter of seconds every time I'm spotted, and once the opposition realises I have no gear, I'm often a prime target. Yes, I could grind away relentlessly enduring many losses and much frustration to the random chance of better gear in a Champ bag, but I would rather spend my time leveling alts and playing in the (more fun, imho) 10-49 bracket.

[FINALBOSS]

The way I understood the post to mean was that current PvP gear wasn't getting nerfed but that new introductory PvP gear would be implemented to reduce the gap between PvPers that have been 50 since week 1 and geared since week 2.

[Panzerbase]

Waiting on GW2, this is just another WOW clone, hopefully they read these forums and do not make the same mistakes as the previous two.

[Panzerbase]

All they have to do is make Centurian a bit better and easier to aquire, hell even craftable, and that would be enough. And it would help the pathetic crafting skill of Synthweaving to boot.

[ScapeGoats]

Due to recent announcements regarding making Level 50 PvP even a fraction more accessible to those without Champion/Battlemaster gear, all players who DO have such gear will be given replacement "Q" keys for their keyboards. Thank you.

 

I'm sure everyone has seen the 1.1.2 dev tracker post which made reference to level 50 PvP today: (click here if you missed it). To quote the offending paragraph:

 

 

 

Perhaps I'm going blind in my old age, but I fail to see the comment which states current PvP gear is being nerfed, or even changed. In fact I read between the lines to translate: "We are reducing the chasm between those with gear and those trying to get it, to make it a more fun experience". It is a game, after all, and is meant to be entertaining regardless of how good you are or how much time you can commit to playing.

 

The outpouring of comments on these forums has cheered up my Thursday immeasurably, so thanks to all whose tears participated in that one. Some personal faves:

 

"Do you know how hard I worked for...X/Y/Z item(s)??"

Oh please, the game has been out for what...6 weeks? And you've likely been grinding gear for around a month. This does not constitute hard work.

 

"Why should new players get to avoid what we all went through to get gear??"

Aaaa...haha. I'd wager a huge portion of those with their Valor 60 and T3 pvp gear managed to grind out a competitive set of Centurion/Champion mix on poor lowly level 10-49's before the bracket change. And we all remember how much fun THAT was? Right? Oh, yes...none whatsoever.

 

"Omg PvE Noobs coming into my Warzone and one-shotting everyone!!"

All aboard the fine vessel Knee-Jerk Reaction, helmed by none other than Capt'n Dramatic! Quite a reaching comment for something which hasn't happened, or even been mentioned yet.

 

Look - joking and sarcasm aside, Level 50 PvP is not very fun and even less accessible without gear right now. Most people who are raging mad about any changes to make it easier are likely those who already got their gear...via an easier route than exists today.

 

There's a reason a huge portion of PvPers reroll an alt for the 10-49 bracket when they hit 50. It's not fun, it's not balanced and it's too easy for baddies who had time to grind their gear early on to hide behind that gear now. Why would anybody who is interested in competitive, Player-versus-Player combat based on skill (ie: true PvPers) be against levelling the playing field a little?

 

 

Pwnage

[Amp_]

I'm starting to get the impression from BioWare that they have no idea what they're trying to do with pvp. I don't mean that they're incompetent at designing pvp. It just feels like it has no real direction and they're trying to make it up as they go along. This feels like beta.

[Evilpingu]

All they have to do is make Centurian a bit better and easier to aquire, hell even craftable, and that would be enough. .

 

Agreed, and that's in the 1.1.2 patch notes already ... something along the lines "significantly increasing" the number of Cent commendations in Champion bags, but lowering the drop rate of Champ/BM tokens from those bags respectively.

 

Might even turn out that's all that was meant by half a paragraph in the middle of a thread about Biochem changes.....