If you rely on gear, you're not a PVPer...

[Jestunhi]

The grind from 1-60 valor is more than "a little work" if you do it as intended. You're also at the mercy of the RNG, which defies any real planning.

 

Depends when you start.

 

I was in the 40's when I reached level 50 and have got to 56 valor quickly without kill trading.

 

However, the difference between a piece of BM and a piece of champ armour is small (look at the actual stats).

[HuntinSikness]

If I wanted to play a game with equal odds and character development means nothing, I'd play one of the 10 billion FPS games out there. Edited February 2, 2012 by HuntinSikness

[Solonius]

The grind from 1-60 valor is more than "a little work" if you do it as intended. You're also at the mercy of the RNG, which defies any real planning.

 

True, the RNG system is a travesty. And by "planning" I meant getting a good premade together that knows strats and communicates well with each other, instead of going in solo all the time.

[Darth_Philar]

The pvp isn't fun (Illum, Tat or the 3 WZs). In fact, it's mostly broken. And you are wrong. People need a payoff or they don't participate.

 

By the same token, you are saying we could remove loot from FPs/Ops and people would still play them for the fun of it....which is a borderline retarded statement.

 

The payoff in any MMO is prestige.

On the PvE side, better gear and downing raids bestows that prestige.

In PvP, the rewards should not cause the playing field to award statistical advantages. People will PvP for other forms of prestige, like cosmetic gear, titles, mounts, etc.

[deltaminus]

The payoff in ANY game is fun. If you get pixelated loot, that's a plus. Keep in mind that there are far more popular games out there than MMO's.

 

Different stroke for different folks.

 

Every MMO I've played rewards you in some way for PvP. If it wasn't for that, I could be playing CounterStrike, CoD or Quake, instead of this game.

 

PvP without an incentive gets tired really fast, it's the reason Bloodline Champions adopted LoL's rune system. People need a reason to keep coming back. If not for the valor/gear farm, do you think people would chain que for Huttball game after game after game after game?

 

Speaking of incentives, Ilum would probably be a deadzone on my server if not for the boxes. Those boxes are so tempting even the underpopulated Republic on my server ventures out in search of them.

 

Why is Smuggler's Den empty? Aside from going there to buy some mounts, there's no reason to really go back.

 

I guess there are no "real" PvPers on my server because no one is in Tatooine showing of their epic skills and everyone is in Ilum/Warzones trying to become a Battlemaster and get geared.

Edited February 2, 2012 by deltaminus

[Vegathegreat]

Here in these two responses do we find the root of the problem.

 

PvE is about progression and your character getting better.

PvP is about tactics and strategy and your skill getting better.

 

You folks are PvE players at heart who want your PvE reward scheme to be applied to PvP. You want to grind and progress and you want that grind and progression to pay off by giving you more power than people who have not grinded or progessed as much as you. You want time=power instead of skill=power.

 

There is NOTHING wrong with that... in PvE.

 

There is EVERYTHING wrong with that in PvP.

 

PvP is NEVER an RPG. That is IMPOSSIBLE! If you have RPG in your "PvP" (which this game does), then you do not have PvP, you have CvC.

 

But you are wrong, there is nothing wrong with it, skill is a factor and gear is a factor......if you take away gear being a factor then you reduce the power that one char. can have.....

 

You effectively destroy a huge part of the math equation, all of a sudden everyone's attack hits for 2500, instead of this guy gets 3500 from that attack forcing the other person to adjust his strategy........

 

And if everyone is the same then pvp becomes....a trade off between abilities. Trying to take on more than one opponent becomes close to impossible since gear wont give you the burst needed to kill 1 of the 2-3 enemies during your cc duration.

 

I guess what im trying to say is you cant become a hero if you remove gear from the equation and make things equal. Essentially if your fighting someone 1v1 and they get aid while you dont, you will NEVER have the tools to overcome the situation.

 

Alot of pvper's dont need the gear for lack of skill, the gear is there to create gaps so you can overcome odds that normally would leave you dead. It still takes skill regardless of gear to win 1v3, cc's have to be timed, snares used, defensive cd's timed perfectly, knowing which stun/cc to break, knowing who and when to interupt....there are tons of factors involved that are all on the skill side of it.

 

Not to mention all melee classes will need a buff if gear becomes less of a factor, burst would decline and melee would be at an even larger disadvantage.....

[Krionic]

You're a carebear that wants to be a PVPer. The coming changes are welcomed by the actual PVPers.

 

 

they made that game, its called call of duty. While we are at it, why dont we also make everyone have to be the same class so we can truely level the playing field. I mean, how fair is that someone gets to stealth and I don't. And heal? omg, sage heals and dmg all that same time. Lets make it 8v8 warzone all sages. YES! Also, lets get rid of the rng that determines how much damage each shot does, and how much each heal does. I assume you want to get rid of PVE gear from pvp too since currently rakata gear can give you = or better than champ (and I argue i can get rakata faster than champ bags)

 

This is an mmo. which means its about progression. mmo'ers, inc "real" pvpers, want to progress. If you just want to casually play player vs player. I think call of duty is the game you are looking for. So take your level the playing field qq somewhere else. If someone doesnt have an advantage with gear they will have an advantage with class vs class. The good news is that EVERYONE can get the same gear.

[Ancient_karp]

The pvp isn't fun (Illum, Tat or the 3 WZs). In fact, it's mostly broken. And you are wrong. People need a payoff or they don't participate.

 

People will participate in activities if the design is sound. Sadly, the gaming community has been trained by Blizzard to react in a Pavlovian manner toward any type of in game mechanic.

 

If you make an activity enjoyable to participate in, players will care less about being rewarded for it in other ways. There are millions of popular games where enjoyment is the only reward. MMO's just cater to a crowd that wants a cookie every time it wipes.

[Kelticfury]

Everyone can quit with the panic. They aren't nerfing the pvp gear.

[Anastasius]

The sky is falling!!!!!

[Moriam]

First off:

 

E-sports = competition.

 

PVP = killing players / WAR.

 

 

Secondly, PVP gear should never have been implemented in the first place. There should have been world bases and such placed on every world past the capital planets and owning those bases should have rewarded rare, one-time-use consumables, increasing in quality over the time it has been owned by a faction. Then there is a purpose to PVP constantly, and out in the open world instead of in warzones and Ilum.

 

Yea only population imbalance will shoot that idea in the foot.

[Lohengrin]

Speaking as primarily a PvE'er, I see almost no reason to run hard-mode FPs when I can get equal level gear running WZs all day. What I don't see a lot of people talking about is the comparison between HMs and PvP - if I die 5 times in a HM FP, that's about a 30k repair bill and a lot of time wasted, whereas now I figure I can do PvP and get equal gear with almost no risk involved. I die 5-6 times in Voidstar and my repair bill is zero; I get mauled in Ilum because we're outnumbered 3-to-1 and my repair bill is zero.

[richardya]

I use my skill to beat people 1 V1.

I use my gear + skill to win 1 V 2, especially in Illum.

 

I thought i got better gear for the time sink as is common in MMO's.

[Vegathegreat]

I use my skill to beat people 1 V1.

I use my gear + skill to win 1 V 2, especially in Illum.

 

I thought i got better gear for the time sink as is common in MMO's.

 

this guy understands it....thank u

 

i dont care about 1v1's....imma win that anyway with my skill, hell usually i win 1v1's without losing 30% of my health, but gear allows me to take on more than 1 and thats when the real skill comes in.....

Edited February 2, 2012 by Vegathegreat

[Tenthletter]

The payoff in any MMO is prestige.

On the PvE side, better gear and downing raids bestows that prestige.

In PvP, the rewards should not cause the playing field to award statistical advantages. People will PvP for other forms of prestige, like cosmetic gear, titles, mounts, etc.

 

People will PVE for cosmetic items as well. See Guild Wars, any game with Mounts, and the upcoming Challenge Mode dungeons in WoW.

 

In fact, the original design intent in WoW was to have all class gear have equivalent stats regardless of origin (5 mans or raids or whatever) but the only difference would be cosmetic. There was no gear imbalance at max level, but people would still Raid (no organized PVP at this point) for the better looking gear. This was scrapped for the traditional Gear Treadmill during development, but Guild Wars picked it up and was quite successful.

 

I often wonder if going with that original design wouldn't have been a better choice. Look at how crazy people go for special mounts, pets and tabards, which do absolutely nothing but look cool.

[Celebrus]

You're a carebear that wants to be a PVPer. The coming changes are welcomed by the people that have spent the last two weeks crying our eyes out because we died in a WZ to someone who is both more skilled and more geared than us and could not handle it.

 

Fixed.

 

Between slicing, biochem, Ilum, and now this latest change. It's apparent that Bioware's solution to any problem is to nerf everything as opposed to adjusting things to bring other skills/players up to speed.

 

Ilum exploits are still being abused, yet here we are nerfing PvP gear because people are whining more about being rocked by geared players than they are about why those players are so geared already. It's amazing.

 

BW has proven, beyond anything else, that they will be coddling the forum whiners, and that changes will be made mostly based upon the crying we see here. Nice.

 

Oh, by the way, it's a nerf, yes, but expertise will still remain, you'll still be bracketed with battlemasters, and you will not be a better player because of this. Have fun quitting when you realize that PvP will always suck when you're bad.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Celebrus

[Pulpp]

People will participate in activities if the design is sound. Sadly, the gaming community has been trained by Blizzard to react in a Pavlovian manner toward any type of in game mechanic.

 

If you make an activity enjoyable to participate in, players will care less about being rewarded for it in other ways. There are millions of popular games where enjoyment is the only reward. MMO's just cater to a crowd that wants a cookie every time it wipes.

 

A carebear statement if I ever heard one. First, I don't like WoW pvp (which has showed up in every other MMO since). Second, feel free to name these MMOs that don't incentivize pvp in some way and still have a popular base (go on, name them...I will wait ). Finally, imo, pvp should also be "tear your hair out at 2am in a rage", not simply enjoyable. People like you have sterilized pvp, it's why we have Trammel, NGE and other nonsense.

 

Egh...

[Jestunhi]

Speaking as primarily a PvE'er, I see almost no reason to run hard-mode FPs when I can get equal level gear running WZs all day. What I don't see a lot of people talking about is the comparison between HMs and PvP - if I die 5 times in a HM FP, that's about a 30k repair bill and a lot of time wasted, whereas now I figure I can do PvP and get equal gear with almost no risk involved. I die 5-6 times in Voidstar and my repair bill is zero; I get mauled in Ilum because we're outnumbered 3-to-1 and my repair bill is zero.

 

And the gear is noticabely worse for pve.

 

Battlemaster Combat Tech's Body Armor

Binds on Pickup

Chest

861 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 120/120

Total Stats:

+94 Aim

+92 Endurance

+50 Expertise Rating

+48 Critical Rating

+51 Accuracy Rating

 

vs.

 

Rakata Combat Tech's Body Armor

Binds on Pickup

Chest

861 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 120/120

Total Stats:

+112 Aim

+116 Endurance

+48 Critical Rating

+51 Accuracy Rating

 

18 less aim, 24 less end - on just one of your 14 slots.

 

If we assume the same rate on all slots (it will vary slightly but i cba to check all the items to get the accurate figures) that's 18 * 14 slots = 252 more aim in top pve gear compared to pvp gear.

[Darth_Philar]

But you are wrong, there is nothing wrong with it, skill is a factor and gear is a factor......if you take away gear being a factor then you reduce the power that one char. can have.....

 

You effectively destroy a huge part of the math equation, all of a sudden everyone's attack hits for 2500, instead of this guy gets 3500 from that attack forcing the other person to adjust his strategy........

 

And if everyone is the same then pvp becomes....a trade off between abilities. Trying to take on more than one opponent becomes close to impossible since gear wont give you the burst needed to kill 1 of the 2-3 enemies during your cc duration.

 

I guess what im trying to say is you cant become a hero if you remove gear from the equation and make things equal. Essentially if your fighting someone 1v1 and they get aid while you dont, you will NEVER have the tools to overcome the situation.

 

Alot of pvper's dont need the gear for lack of skill, the gear is there to create gaps so you can overcome odds that normally would leave you dead. It still takes skill regardless of gear to win 1v3, cc's have to be timed, snares used, defensive cd's timed perfectly, knowing which stun/cc to break, knowing who and when to interupt....there are tons of factors involved that are all on the skill side of it.

 

Not to mention all melee classes will need a buff if gear becomes less of a factor, burst would decline and melee would be at an even larger disadvantage.....

 

Again, you are applying a PvE mindset to PvP. You are not supposed to be the all powerful hero in a PvP match, you are supposed to be a member of the team, a grunt.

 

That is why PvP and CvC fans will never see eye to eye. You want your character's power to determine success while the PvP fan wants his skill to determine success. Since those two sources are opposites, there will never be any agreement on a "PvP/CvC" system.

 

A better solution is to add actual PvP to the game and keep the CvC and PvP separate.

In CvC we keep everything pretty much as is, your uber-powerful PvE character can roll over new players with ease because he has better stats. In the PvP game your character would be no better than a level 10 of the same class.

[Vis-Tecum]

if you try and act big on the internet putting down people you have never played before and whine how they are not "real pvpers"...

 

you must not have any real skill and that is why you spend so much time crying that gear is unfair, funny how all us "fake pvpers" have no problem playing against people with more gear then us since we are all just a bunch of baddies that some how still beat guys with better gear but you elite pvpers cant

 

get over yourselves its pathetic to brag about how super awesome you are at a video game

[Torcer]

It’s hilarious that people playing a MMO think that gear won’t be at least some factor. PvP is too gear dependent right now, but the 1.2 Patch changes look like BW will eventually strike the right balance.

[Vegathegreat]

Again, you are applying a PvE mindset to PvP. You are not supposed to be the all powerful hero in a PvP match, you are supposed to be a member of the team, a grunt.

 

That is why PvP and CvC fans will never see eye to eye. You want your character's power to determine success while the PvP fan wants his skill to determine success. Since those two sources are opposites, there will never be any agreement on a "PvP/CvC" system.

 

A better solution is to add actual PvP to the game and keep the CvC and PvP separate.

In CvC we keep everything pretty much as is, your uber-powerful PvE character can roll over new players with ease because he has better stats. In the PvP game your character would be no better than a level 10 of the same class.

 

But then you are not pvping with your char.

 

You might as well call it jedi #1023892

 

WHO THE HELL WANTS TO PLAY THAT GAME

[Celebrus]

if you try and act big on the internet putting down people you have never played before and whine how they are not "real pvpers"...

 

you must not have any real skill and that is why you spend so much time crying that gear is unfair, funny how all us "fake pvpers" have no problem playing against people with more gear then us since we are all just a bunch of baddies that some how still beat guys with better gear but you elite pvpers cant

 

get over yourselves its pathetic to brag about how super awesome you are at a video game

 

This.

 

If you cry for nerfs on forums, if you whine in general chat during hutt ball, if you somehow perceive yourself as better than a geared player when you are stomped underfoot, and if you really complain about ANYTHING. You are not a PvPer.

 

Gear doesn't factor in. Every player wants gear. It is not exclusive to your play style.

[Ancient_karp]

A carebear statement if I ever heard one. First, I don't like WoW pvp (which has showed up in every other MMO since). Second, feel free to name these MMOs that don't incentivize pvp in some way and still have a popular base (go on, name them...I will wait ). Finally, imo, pvp should also be "tear your hair out at 2am in a rage", not simply enjoyable. People like you have sterilized pvp, it's why we have Trammel, NGE and other nonsense.

Egh...

 

If you rage over pvp, you should take a look at your life and ask why something as trivial as a game can irritate you to such a degree. When I get beaten in a game it's usually because I was outplayed. That's one of the joys of pvp for me. I learn something every time I fight someone more skilled than I am. It's hardly worth getting irritated over.

 

The carebear label was a nice touch though. Done to death, but still a nice touch.

[Jestunhi]

Again, you are applying a PvE mindset to PvP. You are not supposed to be the all powerful hero in a PvP match, you are supposed to be a member of the team, a grunt.

 

That is why PvP and CvC fans will never see eye to eye. You want your character's power to determine success while the PvP fan wants his skill to determine success. Since those two sources are opposites, there will never be any agreement on a "PvP/CvC" system.

 

A better solution is to add actual PvP to the game and keep the CvC and PvP separate.

In CvC we keep everything pretty much as is, your uber-powerful PvE character can roll over new players with ease because he has better stats. In the PvP game your character would be no better than a level 10 of the same class.

 

Calling pvp something different doesn't make your point anymore valid.

 

If you want twitch / pure skill pvp then play a twitch / pure skill game. I see no reason for the devs to devote their valuable time (which could be far better aplied to the actual issues with the game) on making a niche pvp mode (and yes, in the MMORPG playerbase twitch-based gaming *is* niche).