SWTOR was promising. I liked it untill now.

[Lethality]

Uh, no. Mass effect and Kotor are practically identical, besides the graphics if they both were 2012 graphics you would not be able to tell the difference of what game came first.

 

Who says we are taking steps backwards? no lfg got you to qq? get over it.

 

/

 

VO is def a step backwards

 

/sarcasm

 

u mad?

 

The facts sting when they smack you in the face, eh?

 

You are in deep denial if you think Mass Effect 3 is not bringing evolution and creature comforts that BioWare has learned since 2002.

[darthdoll]

u mad?

 

The facts sting when they smack you in the face, eh?

 

You are in deep denial if you think Mass Effect 3 is not bringing evolution and creature comforts that BioWare has learned since 2002.

 

Lol what facts have you provided?

 

None.

[neocoma]

Bioware has had zero of that experience, so what is your point, exactly?

 

I see. So BW didnt play MMOs ever, never read about MMOs ever and never came out of their cave to see what's up in the real world atm ever like ...ever. This what you say? I wonder how they even managed to write code at all without "experience".

 

Srsly dude, either accept that experience doesnt ONLY mean to experience something first hand but also by learning about it in any way, or just admit that you are a clueless person.

[Raice]

The reason I am slowly but surely not liking this game is the fact that Bioware keeps messing everything up.

 

They had a really, really, really great game at launch. It was so good... it was probably the best MMO I had played in years.

 

Then they started nerfing stuff....

 

They have done nothing but nerf after nerf after nerf. If the game was so borked - these sorts of nerfs would have been caught in Beta. They're messing with stuff without really looking into better solutions to whatever problems arise. And what will come out of this - is a completely different game.

 

There was a difference between the Design Team and the Live Team. They aren't the same guys. So far, the Live Team has done a pretty great job of breaking EVERYTHING. They're doing stuff that doesn't need to be done, and completely avoiding things that do. This is SWG all over again.

 

This is why I am starting to hate this game. It's even worse, now, because it was not less than a month ago that I saw how great this game was. And it's not that it has gotten to the point that it is completely different (yet). It's that this game-plan of "fixes" is going to produce that sort of result - probably before Summer.

[oakamp]

I dont want WoW in space!

 

I hated Arena

I hated Cross Server LFGs

I hated the daily heroic

 

You may say that SWTOR is not as good in many areas, well the game is new and give them some time to roll out new things you cant have it all right away.

 

and come on remember how hard C'thun and Arthas were when they came out? It felt like an achievement when you killed them Now you can pug kill Deathwing..........you shouldn't be able to pug the last boss of the game!

 

we hate wow,

but not hate arena,

not hate cross server LFGs,

 

but we do hate the low population in swtor,

and BW do nothing about improve this situation,

and so many bugs,

 

so we un-sub.

 

no, swtor doesn't deserve more time when it is not F2P!!!

[Lethality]

Lol what facts have you provided?

 

None.

 

Facts? For what?

[NoxiousAlby]

OP, you are just another player who came from a game with 7 years of content and is complaining how a 2 months old game doesnt have the same amount of content. Take a break and come back in 7 years, you'll be amazed.

[Dillingor]

His point is Bioware had all the time to see how Blizzard handled things and improve upon that. You know, the general idea of the whole business.

 

Inb4 but Blizzard didn't have experience in 2004 huehuehue.

 

 

That's ridiculous. That's like saying 2+2 = 5 "IN B4 "NO 2+2=4"

 

It's also like saying "I've watched EVERY NFL GAME FOR THE LAST 4 YEARS, I'M READY TO PLAY NFL NOW"

 

It doesn't work that way.

 

Simply being able to observe another company go through ups and downs of game development does not automatically mean Bioware can bypass mistakes Blizzard made without trying it themselves. The level of unrealistic expectations is just mind boggling. It's like you guys have no idea how anything works.

 

No, this game isn't perfect. The people who defend it just have a better understanding of how the world works. If you aren't happy with the game, cancel, state why in the cancellation reason box they give you, and carry on. Nothing beyond that is constructive in any way.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Dillingor

[darthdoll]

Facts? For what?

 

Are you dimwitted or what?

 

The facts sting when they smack you in the face, eh?

 

You are in deep denial if you think Mass Effect 3 is not bringing evolution and creature comforts that BioWare has learned since 2002.

 

Thats what you said...

 

So, what "facts".

Edited February 6, 2012 by darthdoll

[Tiaa]

PvP was promising. Huttball was new and enjoyable (imo) and the other two warzones were attractive and easy to get used to. However after playing these same three warzones over and over with no differentiation is a drag. Especially having to get to valor 60 for the best gear simply either farming rare empire kills in illum (I say rare because each one I attack has 5 people on back-up behind them) or farming those three warzones alot!!

 

Agreed.

 

I think this game is probably the worse to Republic players in regards to PvP but that doesn't change what the "Valor System" is: a grind. And a terrible grind if you aren't playing Empire like 80% of the playerbase. It actually is just as bad as Vanilla WoWs ranking system, where people would spend hours,days, weeks and months grinding for a rank.

 

The "Valor Rush of 1.1" ruined any hope for open world PvP for me and just showed why this system of ranking is obsolete. "World PvP" isn't even real when it's pretty much controlled by the puppet master.

 

Grinding knows this game too well.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tiaa

[Lethality]

Are you dimwitted or what?

 

 

 

Thats what you said...

 

So, what "facts".

 

LOL.

 

The fact that features of a modern MMO are missing, unequivocally and non-subjectively.

 

Having to wait for a game to mature "again", when a clear roadmap has been laid out previously - years before - with crystal clear customer expectations and creature comforts for delivering a modern MMO experience.

 

The facts are blinding.

 

p.s. I suggest you stop the insults. Just trying to help.

[jonobiwan]

that's ridiculous. That's like saying 2+2 = 5 "in b4 "no 2+2=4"

 

it's also like saying "i've watched every nfl game for the last 4 years, i'm ready to play nfl now"

 

it doesn't work that way.

 

Simply being able to observe another company go through ups and downs of game development does not automatically mean bioware can bypass mistakes blizzard made without trying it themselves. The level of unrealistic expectations is just mind boggling. It's like you guys have no idea how anything works.

 

No, this game isn't perfect. The people who defend it just have a better understanding of how the world works. If you aren't happy with the game, cancel, state why in the cancellation reason box they give you, and carry on. Nothing beyond that is constructive in any way.

exactly!

[Anecdote]

I like how the majority of things on this list were NOT AVAILABLE AT RELEASE. And for some of them, for YEARS after.

 

Seriously.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Anecdote

[Jxspyder]

sorry but 90% of us don't find out content through tedious leveling.

 

Sorry, but 87.232% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

With all those years of experience, how come Bioware didn't learn from it? Just saying.

 

What years of experience does Bioware have in MMO's?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Jxspyder

[Jxspyder]

There is a difference between you "not having the same resources" versus "you are making the same mistakes they did, - in other words, reinventing the wheel". Would you build a house without indoor plumbing? How about no kitchen, no closets, or no bedrooms? That's what we are talking about here. You know any house you build, if you didn't have indoor plumbing, would not sell. Well, lack of UI customization, today, is like no indoor plumbing in a home, today.

 

Tell me, if some investor came along and said, "Hey, I got $50 million, I want to invest it in your company", would you still have those problems? Only if you tried to "reinvent the wheel".

 

You're mistaking necessities for extras. It's nothing like comparing it to building a house without indoor plumbing, but rather like building a house without forced air, or an AC. Without a jetted tub, or with a 4 foot shower instead of a 5 foot shower.

 

UI customization is absolutely not a necessity, it's an awesome perk....that we've already been told is in development.

 

And yes, even with that 50 million investment, I likely would still have some of those problems. Especially when the company that I compete with has had 100 million plus poured in to it over the years.

 

 

 

But... you're a different kind of business structure than the large developers you might be "competing" with. It's ok that people don't expect you to have the same customer service infrastructure or whatnot - they know that when they get into business with you.

 

But we're talking about BioWare and Blizzard. Activision and Electronic Arts.

 

Not Mojang or Rovio... oh wait...

 

According to this arguement, I'm absolutely in the same business structure. We're both MMO's......

 

 

His point is Bioware had all the time to see how Blizzard handled things and improve upon that. You know, the general idea of the whole business.

 

Inb4 but Blizzard didn't have experience in 2004 huehuehue.

 

Because when Dr. Ray calls up the lead designers at Blizzard, they're just going to hand over their product code, right?

 

They started their design from ground zero. The exact same point where Blizzard started. Has development time significantly improved over the years? Not really, no.

 

 

LOL.

 

The fact that features of a modern MMO are missing, unequivocally and non-subjectively.

 

Having to wait for a game to mature "again", when a clear roadmap has been laid out previously - years before - with crystal clear customer expectations and creature comforts for delivering a modern MMO experience.

 

The facts are blinding.

 

p.s. I suggest you stop the insults. Just trying to help.

 

Which brings us back to the previous NFL example. I've watched football for years. I can throw a pretty mean spiral. I should be able to walk on to a field and get myself a superbowl ring, right? I mean, I have a clear roadmap that has been laid out previously. The fact that I have zero experience following that roadmap, is entirely irrelevant, correct?

 

 

As for the "fact" you've provided, which features are missing, that unequivocally and non-subjectively are required to be in an MMO?

[Kubernetic]

This is precisely why I'm leveling up multiple characters to 50 in slow progression.

 

I just don't understand you guys who raced to 50 with one character and then stopped to complain.

 

And I could care less about WOW.

[Andge]

Hello

 

I got to level fifty about one month ago from now and I couldn't stop bragging about how amazing this game was. I was on these forums daily trying to fight away the people who hate this game and making suggestions for end game. Quite simply you can call me blinded and obsessed. I couldn't face denial that this game actually is bad.

 

Here I am now then telling you why I dislike the game and seeing if I can relate to those who back up this game that had promise but has lost it.

 

1) PvP:

PvP was promising. Huttball was new and enjoyable (imo) and the other two warzones were attractive and easy to get used to. However after playing these same three warzones over and over with no differentiation is a drag. Especially having to get to valor 60 for the best gear simply either farming rare empire kills in illum (I say rare because each one I attack has 5 people on back-up behind them) or farming those three warzones alot!!

 

"Why can you not play this game just because you enjoy playing?" I did enjoy playing but come on, be logical. Doing the same three things over and over simply doesn't maintain it's excitement.

 

2) PvE: Just flashpoint after flashpoint and the only reason to do it is for the gear piece at the end to be traded for columi. No decent gear any other way. Flashpoint drops were terrible. Took forever to find a full group even tho its only 4 man. No reputation gains to buy gear from reputation vendors etc. Just a boring one way street.

 

The reasons behind why WoW was enjoyable with PvP

Dueling in durotar/elwynn added competitiveness against own faction. Cannot happen here because there is no dueling area within 10 seconds from the main part of the fleet without going through a loading screen.

Arena. Yes arena added excitement to PvP and added competition. I enjoy competition and therefore is why SWTOR has lost its edge for me. No matter how much you hate arena it is still better than anything SWTOR has to offer at this moment. It consists of rewards if you are good and is not dependant on others. It feels personal to you making a team. Just endless hours could be spent trying to increase rating and the feeling of winning was great.

Ratings for arena and battleground groups. Added competition and elitism. Made the community thrive in a bad or good way. Depends how you think about it.

Battleground were alot larger than SWTORs and added an MMO feel to it. Mounting included.

 

The reasons behind why WoW was enjoyable with PvE

It didn't just involve token rewards from dungeons. The actual gear from dungeons was useful. Made people have a sense of excitement when killing a boss waiting for loot to drop. Wasn't free access to token gear at the end of each dungeon.

The token grind for gear that was worth XXXX amount of tokens wasn't long. It was only 2 weeks of lock time or so. Compared to SWTOR this is short.

One of my favorite features of WoW when it was in WoW was the daily heroic where you had to kill a specific boss in a specific dungeon.

Dungeon finder was easy to use and using it gave rewards.

 

The reasons why WoW was enjoyable

Community was larger and auction house was thriving. Had an actual economy. Felt good.

Events that took place when events took palce in reality. E.G christmas events that gave you decent rewards from doing christmas stuff or valentines day etc etc.

You could re-do you characters hair style at the barbers.

Professions felt great once they were leveled to the max. Felt like you achieved something.

Fishing, Archaeology, First aid etc

You could attack the enemy cities. Also attack towns and cities alone as long as you avoided elites because guards were only normal mobs. In SWTOR guards are champions for most places.

Flying mounts

Quick travel with portals.

Daily quest zone had dailys close together and it interacted with opposite faction. So it could also be pvp. Zones were small and easy to complete. Not a drag. Illum daily area doesn't have much zones shared with imperial and is quite the drag in illum.

Guilds had reputation/amazing rewards for being exalted with guild. Heirlooms to level alts with. Mounts etc.

The ammount of gear varied massively and it wasn't allways the vendor gear that was the best. Unlike SWTOR where you can only rely on vendor gear.

 

 

Fine post. And you make some points I agree with.

But I also notice how a lot of the things you point out as being reasons for why you enjoy WoW are things that actually weren't added before the different expasions, like barbers, dungeon finder, and flying mounts. And the economy of SWTOR needs, like any economy be it WoW's or a real country's, time to settle. It is absoutely impossible to design a game in a way so that the economy will be balanced and thus big from the start.

 

Your post also shows me one thing; even though you list your reasons for why WoW was enjoyable (as opposed to SWTOR in the same areas) as objective reasons, there are no "objectively enjoyable" features of an MMO. E.g. you list dungeon finder as one of the things that made WoW enjoyable. I would put dungeon finder on the list of bad things about WoW. To me, dungeon finder destroyed so much. First of the rewards from grouping via dungeon finder were useless most of the time (either they were too low for your lvl or the stats didn't fit your class). Secondly, because it was so easy to find a group via dungeon finder, it let to people leaving groups at random points without a warning making actually finishing an instance a *********** pain and often a group would end up with having had 10 different players in it before the instance was finished.

Thirdly, again because dungeon finder made finding a group so easy, instancing became something most people did with a cynical attitude, all about speeding through it, totally un-enjoyable from a social perspective, and often people were extremely rude.

Fourthly, because dungeon finder was cross server, you didn't get lasting connections from doing instances as you did before dungeon finder.

Fifthly, again because dungeon finder made it so easy finding a group, finishing an instance didn't provide the same sense of satisfaction as before. The entirely hazzle of getting a group together, going to the summoning stone etc was part of the challenge for me.

 

This discussion is not about WoW dungeon finder. My point is, what you perceive as an objective feature of WoW that makes it enjoyable, is just as objectively one of the bad things about WoW.

 

I.e. you might think that you can contemplate and contemplate and come up with objective good things or bad things to an MMO. You can't. Simple as that.

[stuw]

This is precisely why I'm leveling up multiple characters to 50 in slow progression.

 

I just don't understand you guys who raced to 50 with one character and then stopped to complain.

 

And I could care less about WOW.

 

 

They've been trained to do that. They play games like they're a job. I was guilty of that in bc and wotlk. The day cata came out, I literally logged on and had a "why bother" moment and haven't done the power level approach since.

 

This game has been quite enjoyable when you just slow the f down and just take in the real strengths of the game.

 

I don't know what to expect for longevity or end game, but thats not my concern... its biowares concern.

[Radubadu]

This is precisely why I'm leveling up multiple characters to 50 in slow progression.

 

I just don't understand you guys who raced to 50 with one character and then stopped to complain.

 

And I could care less about WOW.

 

I intend to do the same. Anyone who's played any MMO at launch then plays another, races to the lvl cap and expects massive amounts of endgame is fooling themselves. I'm getting a late start but I can't get over how polished the game is for being live for barely over a month.

 

I would also like to reiterate an earlier comment I saw about people complaining about comparisons to WoW.

 

1. WoW is the #1 competition for any MMO right now... period. Comparisons are going to happen.

 

2. A lot of people (including myself) came here from WoW. To expect them not to draw comparisons is just stupid. Imagine you own a nice car and you love it but eventually decide to trade it in even though it still works. You're naturally going to compare your next car to that one, there will be things that you like better about it and things you think the manufacturer could've done better.

 

3. This game IS WoW in a different skin. Flame me all you want to but at it's core, all the mechanics everything... it's WoW. HOWEVER, that's not a bad thing. WoW is successful for a reason.

 

That last one is important... I think that's why people get so pissed when comparisons are made... they get mad because in reality while they seem to hate WoW they love this game which is basically WoW in space.

[Zakadan]

That IS an awful lot to consider, I guess it's really going to come down to personal choice on a lot of these.

[LordSkyKnight]

So, it's expected that every time a new game comes out we have to invest 4 years for it to "catch up" with where we left off in the last game, let alone surpass it?

 

So we'll never "progress" again? Just wait for new games to come out, live for a few years, and then start the cycle over again?

 

Exactly, all these lapdogs are so used to rolling belly up and eating the ketchup soup calling it a steak.

 

 

Yes we know we have to invest time into an mmo but there are just some basic stuff the game should have launched with, it's plain silly.

[iheartnyc]

To all the fanboys who jump down everyone's throat every time someone mentions WoW, let people vent. They are making post like this because they want the game to be great. They want to play it for years like they did with WoW. Like it or not, WoW is still THE MMO to be compared too.

 

The only way this game will improve is feedback from the community. I'm sick and tired of every time someone criticizes this game, there are a flurry of posts by fanboys such as:

 

"This is perfect! BW is going to herald in the second coming of Jesus and can do no harm! Go back to WoW. How dare you say something that could improve this game!"

 

No offense, but it's people like the OP that turned me off from WoW in the first place. Nothing personal, but I think for the vast majority of players, who don't have the time to level up to 50 within a few weeks, it's pretty annoying to have to PvP against people who will win 99% of the time simply because they have grinded and have substantially better gear than you (and thus negating all semblance of skill). No thanks. I suspect game devs are developing additional content for people like me, so we can grow WITH the game, not advance far beyond its current capabilities.

[LordSkyKnight]

No offense, but it's people like the OP that turned me off from WoW in the first place. Nothing personal, but I think for the vast majority of players, who don't have the time to level up to 50 within a few weeks, it's pretty annoying to have to PvP against people who will win 99% of the time simply because they have grinded and have substantially better gear than you (and thus negating all semblance of skill). No thanks. I suspect game devs are developing additional content for people like me, so we can grow WITH the game, not advance far beyond its current capabilities.

 

How do you think people feel who join a game say two years after it's been out. They go through the same thing pvping against people like yourself who have been established. How is it any different? There are always going to be people higher on the food chain than yourself.

[iheartnyc]

How do you think people feel who join a game say two years after it's been out. They go through the same thing pvping against people like yourself who have been established. How is it any different? There are always going to be people higher on the food chain than yourself.

 

That's not my point. My point is, it is impossible for an average player to keep up with the people who level up and gear up just for the sake of having the highest level and best gear. You can't compare us to people who start up two years from now. We are our peers. People who join in two years will have their own set of peers to judge their relative performance on. To iterate my point, I do NOT look forward to having some noob who starts two years later than I did destroy me in PvP just b/c he farmed the game to get better gear. It's all relative.

 

Also, assuming the game progresses, there will be many more additional content/expansions in the next two years. There will be more gear for sale on GTN, and a more stable economy, which will make it easier for new players to catch up on all but the highest-end gear.

 

BTW, I think gear should be awarded based on skill metrics, not on time played.

Edited February 6, 2012 by iheartnyc

[usblues]

Stop whining and go play WoW if you love that junk so much.