Is Swtor sexist?

[Sai-to]

I see no problem with the OP's idea of having a "He-Man" or "Conan"-like outfit.

 

 

But there is a line to be drawn with male dancers. No offense to all you homosexuals out there, but you are in a minority. The majority of players would not want that. There's a reason there's a lot less male stripper clubs than there are female stripper clubs. And it's almost unheard of to have both in one club.

[Notsensible]

I see no problem with the OP's idea of having a "He-Man" or "Conan"-like outfit.

 

 

But there is a line to be drawn with male dancers. No offense to all you homosexuals out there, but you are in a minority. The majority of players would not want that. There's a reason there's a lot less male stripper clubs than there are female stripper clubs. And it's almost unheard of to have both in one club.

 

Two things come to mind.

 

1) Profiling purposes. Like jazz music in a bar redneck bar.

2) It wouldn't be fair because if a fat man were a better dancer, the more physically fit man will end up with the job.

 

Kudos to anyone who knows what I'm referring to lol. But yeah, in response to that part about why there's more female strip clubs, I think that has something to do with us men usually being more openly perverted lol.

[Hal_Narcowitz]

Here's the thing. The game itself is awesome. Are there things to work on story-wise? Sure.

 

Clearly there are less options for females in the game than males in terms of romance options. My wife has already noticed the pretty large discrepancy.

 

Hopefully bioware will work on this as the game develops.

 

For those who are so insecure in their own sexuality that they can't stomach male dancers in the game, all I have to say is "lol". If you don't think there's a large LGBT gamer community, you don't know much about the gaming community.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Hal_Narcowitz
typo

[Lord_of_Stone]

Who cares about armor skins. All I know is, the female characters in this game are powerful, compelling, VA'd magnificently, and are far from one dimensional. Not to mention that they pretty much make up 50% of the characters in the game. On more than one occasion while playing my fem-trooper (Jennifer Hale... all the way) she will be have a conversation with 2-3 other characters, all female.

 

Couldnt care less about looks, they are provocative because thats what the audience wants to see. Thats why most strip clubs have women dancing, not men. Societal standards are derived from inherent traits, NOT the other way around. I believe this game is FAR from sexist, and its easy to see as long as you look past pithy armor sets.

[Thecooljason]

No, this is a awful idea. If people start dressing their male characters is nasty clothing, I will leave and never look back.

[Propecius]

I see no problem with the OP's idea of having a "He-Man" or "Conan"-like outfit.

 

But there is a line to be drawn with male dancers. No offense to all you homosexuals out there, but you are in a minority. The majority of players would not want that. There's a reason there's a lot less male stripper clubs than there are female stripper clubs. And it's almost unheard of to have both in one club.

 

 

No offense to the majority, but just because you're in the majority doesn't mean you should get your way in everything.

 

Many of the players (yes, a majority) are young white males. Does that mean that anyone who isn't a young, white male should be treated as a second class citizen? The rest of us pay the same subscription fees to play. Why should we have to sit at the back of the bus?

 

The thing about privilege, in the sense that non-minority people are in a position of privilege, is that it can be extremely difficult for the privileged to understand their position, and the power it gives them over a minority. If you're not a black man in an urban area of the US, you have the privilege of never having to worry about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and being arrested for a crime you didn't commit. If you're not a Latino in Arizona, you probably don't have to worry about going out for a walk without your proof of citizenship. If you're not a woman, you probably don't have to fear being sexually assaulted because you flirted with the wrong person in a bar.

 

How often does the average white male have to think about these things? Not very often, if at all. That is privilege.

 

So when you say that you don't think there should be male dancers in game, because you, personally, don't want to see them, you're saying that from a position of privilege. You're saying that as part of the majority. But the male dancers wouldn't be there for you. They would be there for someone else. And that would be OK, just like the female dancers being there for you would be OK with the women and gay men playing the game.

 

And that's ... one to grow on.

[Zanatho]

Being a gay male myself (as the OP is I guess as he seems to draw alot of attention to looking at male bodies and his guild is 'gay friendly' despite it being generally accepted these days) I dont think this is a great idea and would take ALOT away from immersion.

 

Females dancing for males is somethin that has been done in many societies for years. Just because no males are doing it does NOT make it sexist

 

Skimpy outfits are awesome on females, everyone loves a good armorkini. Making an armour set like that for males just for attention just does not belong in this game imo

 

At the extreme I think it would be funny to add a shady bar in some planet with male dancers. Would make me laugh with some funny dialog like 'My wife thinks im watching huttball' or something :>

[Darth_Morgul]

Back in the 90's there was a lawsuit against Hooters alleging sexual discrimination for not hiring males as servers. I believe that there are still people laughing, I know I am. I go to Hooters for, well, the Hooters...

[Thecooljason]

No offense to the majority, but just because you're in the majority doesn't mean you should get your way in everything.

 

Many of the players (yes, a majority) are young white males. Does that mean that anyone who isn't a young, white male should be treated as a second class citizen? The rest of us pay the same subscription fees to play. Why should we have to sit at the back of the bus?

 

The thing about privilege, in the sense that non-minority people are in a position of privilege, is that it can be extremely difficult for the privileged to understand their position, and the power it gives them over a minority. If you're not a black man in an urban area of the US, you have the privilege of never having to worry about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and being arrested for a crime you didn't commit. If you're not a Latino in Arizona, you probably don't have to worry about going out for a walk without your proof of citizenship. If you're not a woman, you probably don't have to fear being sexually assaulted because you flirted with the wrong person in a bar.

 

How often does the average white male have to think about these things? Not very often, if at all. That is privilege.

 

So when you say that you don't think there should be male dancers in game, because you, personally, don't want to see them, you're saying that from a position of privilege. You're saying that as part of the majority. But the male dancers wouldn't be there for you. They would be there for someone else. And that would be OK, just like the female dancers being there for you would be OK with the women and gay men playing the game.

 

And that's ... one to grow on.

 

That's deeply flawed thinking. Not having male dancers in game is nothing like having to sit on the back of the bus. There is a big difference between not getting what you want and being discriminated against.

 

The majority rules in this country. Its a good an healthy system. The majority of the US is non-racist, and they have the privilege of making our laws. Should the minority racist people have a few racist laws to please them? No absolutely not. And who says that its white males who are the majority of this game. There has been no polls to back that up.

 

You are confusing entitlements with rights. People of every race, sexual preference, likes-dislikes, style, wealth, job, opinions, etc. can play this game. But that doesn't make them entitled to have content to cater to what they want. The game should be made to please as many people as possible.

 

People go around these days saying that they are entitled to so much, when they should just be grateful for their rights.

 

Many people would be displeased if male dancers were added, and few would be pleased. Therefore they shouldn't be added.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Thecooljason

[TirGavin]

No, just stop.

[Shivetya]

Sexist beyond reason. Violence towards women seems to be celebrated in this game, like it was scripted by a bunch of drunken frats

[Sai-to]

No offense to the majority, but just because you're in the majority doesn't mean you should get your way in everything.

 

When it's a matter of conflicting interests, it does actually.

 

 

So when you say that you don't think there should be male dancers in game, because you, personally, don't want to see them, you're saying that from a position of privilege. You're saying that as part of the majority. But the male dancers wouldn't be there for you. They would be there for someone else. And that would be OK, just like the female dancers being there for you would be OK with the women and gay men playing the game.

 

 

I never said that I personally didn't want to see them. I don't care one way or the other. However, I can see how many of the members of the majority would be offended by it. Unfortunately, American culture is behind by about a century still in regards to this topic. So until that changes, it's not a business's job to make social progress. They're in it to make money... and it's quite possible that they'd offend more people than they'd appease. And that's what it's about. As I said right away... this is a topic of conflicting interest for a lot of people, and in those cases you have to go with the majority.

[Explosive_Lasers]

Well, I'm a heterosexual male so I might not be the most reliable source...

 

But, no, I don't think it's sexist. At least, not enough to be noticeable. It's LESS sexist than the real world, in fact, so I think we should cut the game some slack.

 

I mean, when the Grand Master of all the Jedi is a woman, and the leader of Coruscant, the Republic's capital, is a woman, there's not very much professional bias. There are also a lot of women in the military, on both sides, and many female officers.

 

Not to mention how there aren't very many insults thrown around by NPCs based on gender, as far as I've seen.

 

So, really, I don't think the game is sexist. I think it's people looking to deep into it, trying to find hidden flaws and exposing them, and not looking for the same flaws that apply to the opposite gender in different areas.

 

RACISM on the other hand...

 

Edit: Just wanted to throw something in about slave-girls and dancers. It's scientifically proven that women are less likely to enjoy a dominatrix role. It's just a generalization, though, and some individuals that have that personality may exist. For that reason, women are less likely to hire male ******s, strippers, or dancers, and men are more likely to, because they're wired to want to be dominant. It originates from the pack structure of humanity, long, long ago, in a continent far, far away.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Explosive_Lasers

[Arokel]

In MMOs, all females are males.

 

In MMOs, any actual females that claim they're actually females are still males.

 

Don't yell at me, that's just the way it works.

 

When you treat it that way, no it's not sexist. It's pretty bro.

 

When I played WoW back in high school my mom would play it.

 

It was weird sharing a game with your own mother.

[Vitas]

Would the game be considered less sexist if either Dathomir or Hapes were introduced and became fully explorable? Edited February 1, 2012 by Vitas

[Arokel]

Would the game be considered less sexist if either Dathomir or Hapes were introduced and became fully explorable?

 

There were no witches on Dathomir until at least after the New Sith Wars ended in 1000 BBY.

 

Don't quote me though. I may be wrong or there may have been a retcon.

 

I have no idea whether Hapes is a state at this time period.

[Vitas]

There were no witches on Dathomir until at least after the New Sith Wars ended in 1000 BBY.

 

Don't quote me though. I may be wrong or there may have been a retcon.

 

I have no idea whether Hapes is a state at this time period.

 

Around this time Hapes was already colonized and had formed a matriarchal society. It wouldn't be closed off until hundreds of years after TOR. As for Dathomir, there are settlements during this time. However there doesn't appear to be any witches as of yet but it is possible for there to be female dominated settlements which would eventually become the nightsisters in the future.

[SoundOfDeath]

In MMOs, all females are males.

 

In MMOs, any actual females that claim they're actually females are still males.

 

Don't yell at me, that's just the way it works.

 

When you treat it that way, no it's not sexist. It's pretty bro.

 

I know for a fact that we have several females in our guild. You're wrong.

[JHawx]

I wasn't gonna mention the S word but come on, there are two bikini sets (slave girl and dancer sets) but nothing for male characters.

 

Umm, i dont want to see a male sith wearing a mankini nor a thong and or speedo.

Current dresses are from the movies itself, the golden bikini is infamous slave outfit worn by leia, and mostly used by the hutts. Even tho they are really provokative, they are original. As per say, the male servants rarely are used for entertaiment, they are used as servants and as a workforce, where they can be more worth of theyr money and feed.

[Arokel]

Around this time Hapes was already colonized and had formed a matriarchal society. It wouldn't be closed off until hundreds of years after TOR. As for Dathomir, there are settlements during this time. However there doesn't appear to be any witches as of yet but it is possible for there to be female dominated settlements which would eventually become the nightsisters in the future.

 

Good point about Dathomir. It was after all a jedi exile who created the society we know from the EU. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say there was someo sort of matriarchal or at least matrilineal (spelling?) society already there.

[plusieurs]

That's deeply flawed thinking. Not having male dancers in game is nothing like having to sit on the back of the bus. There is a big difference between not getting what you want and being discriminated against.

 

The majority rules in this country. Its a good an healthy system. The majority of the US is non-racist, and they have the privilege of making our laws. Should the minority racist people have a few racist laws to please them? No absolutely not. And who says that its white males who are the majority of this game. There has been no polls to back that up.

 

You are confusing entitlements with rights. People of every race, sexual preference, likes-dislikes, style, wealth, job, opinions, etc. can play this game. But that doesn't make them entitled to have content to cater to what they want. The game should be made to please as many people as possible.

 

People go around these days saying that they are entitled to so much, when they should just be grateful for their rights.

 

Many people would be displeased if male dancers were added, and few would be pleased. Therefore they shouldn't be added.

 

You're writing that from a position of privilege and demonstrating a general lack of understanding of the subject of privilege. It's very interesting to learn about, and if you're interested in finding out why people disagree with you, and where your argument is flawed (aside from equating a minority wanting to be included with a minority wanting to exclude people), I'd suggest you look it up. If you're not terribly interested, then oh well, I'm not going to argue you, as I've seen the road that goes down in the pre-forum-wipe SGRA thread over many many iterations, and I've no desire to get this thread locked.

[shreddster]

No offense to the majority, but just because you're in the majority doesn't mean you should get your way in everything.

 

Actually, it does. In politics, equal representation is a facade that "representatives" put in front of their constituents to gain popular support. The many and the strong will always crush the few and the weak. That's why the United States continues to imperialize the rest of the world. We do it because we can.

 

Many of the players (yes, a majority) are young white males.

 

Now you're on to something...

 

Does that mean that anyone who isn't a young, white male should be treated as a second class citizen?

 

This has nothing to do with civil rights or civil liberties. You're using language that distracts from the real issue and makes opponents of this suggestion seem hateful and cruel.

 

The rest of us pay the same subscription fees to play. Why should we have to sit at the back of the bus?

 

Yeah, let's pull the Rosa Parks card here... Typical.

 

The thing about privilege, in the sense that non-minority people are in a position of privilege, is that it can be extremely difficult for the privileged to understand their position, and the power it gives them over a minority.

 

The fact still remains that the majority has the power. It doesn't matter if they understand it. They still have it.

 

If you're not a black man in an urban area of the US, you have the privilege of never having to worry about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and being arrested for a crime you didn't commit. If you're not a Latino in Arizona, you probably don't have to worry about going out for a walk without your proof of citizenship. If you're not a woman, you probably don't have to fear being sexually assaulted because you flirted with the wrong person in a bar.

 

Because of the sheer irrelevance of this paragraph, I'm not going to bother rebutting.

How often does the average white male have to think about these things? Not very often, if at all. That is privilege.

 

It depends on whether they choose to think about it. Also, the "average" white male you're detailing here, I'm guessing is the subjective representation of whatever knowledge you've taken from history class lectures. Having said that, as a white male, it's not all too farfetched to suggest that there are tens of thousands of black people that are exponentially further along monetarily and more "privileged" than I am. Go to the nearest black man that has been wealthy all his life and ask him if he deserves to feel "less privileged" because he's black.

 

So when you say that you don't think there should be male dancers in game, because you, personally, don't want to see them, you're saying that from a position of privilege.

 

So, you're saying as long as someone is part of the majority opinion, they're "privileged?" Really? Take a step back and think about what you just posted.

 

 

You're saying that as part of the majority. But the male dancers wouldn't be there for you. They would be there for someone else. And that would be OK, just like the female dancers being there for you would be OK with the women and gay men playing the game.

 

This last part should have been the entirety of your post. It's really the only part that made sense.

 

And that's ... one to grow on.

 

lol

 

 

Anyone else have any "logical" arguments?

Edited February 1, 2012 by shreddster

[shreddster]

You're writing that from a position of privilege and demonstrating a general lack of understanding of the subject of privilege. It's very interesting to learn about, and if you're interested in finding out why people disagree with you, and where your argument is flawed (aside from equating a minority wanting to be included with a minority wanting to exclude people), I'd suggest you look it up. If you're not terribly interested, then oh well, I'm not going to argue you, as I've seen the road that goes down in the pre-forum-wipe SGRA thread over many many iterations, and I've no desire to get this thread locked.

 

One's being a part of the majority does not make them privileged. Despite your persuasive language you fail to realize that colorful words don't make your argument coherent.

 

 

Proponents of this suggestion need to understand something:

 

It is NOT going to happen. There is good reason why it is NOT going to happen. Fairness is irrelevant. Equal treatment is irrelevant. There are those who hold the power, and the majority rules.

[Sufran]

It amuses me that so many individuals are willing to rely on subjective arguments of personal preference in order to justify the limitations of choices for others. I can only presume they think they’re entitled to do such via majoritarian thinking rather than libertarian, thus I’m very happy to know that I can interfere in the game and life choices of others if I get sufficient numbers of people to support me. It won’t matter if the feature is a ‘choice’ that I can bypass; not wanting to see it is apparently sufficient reason.

 

As for SW:TOR being sexist, I regard Star Wars as a whole as sexist thus it makes sense for TOR to emulate that to some degree but I also think the entire gaming domain is saturated with immature male insecurity. It is entirely possible that this is simply derived from confirmation bias but the slavery, torture, etc seems far more overt in nature than the sexism. It’s as if sexism, both now and in the original films, was latent and unconscious in nature due to the social values of the time rather than an intentionally selected story-element. Of course, that’s speculative.

 

Whilst extreme sexual dimorphism renders males and females absurd, the sexualisation of women is almost always far greater by virtue of lower quantities of body-covering outfits in relation to men. It would appear that so many people are either incapable of seeing it or choose not to for egotistical reasons.

 

Personally, I can’t wait for a major MMO that embraces all choices and truly attempts to take advantage of the increasing market share attributable to women and minority groups. It is entirely speculative but I expect that a game that manages to truly purge rigid social roles and the drooling, fawning, belittling ‘herr herr, Guy-In-Real-Life’ attitude will be highly successful via its decreased reliance on immature males. It’s very easy to blame the game or players in isolation from each other but there’s feedback and many variables, such as the composition of the development team and the respective beliefs of its members, thus I blame both for not being willing to take some responsibility or to risk something new.

 

Ultimately, I have no problem with sexualisation but only if each sex has equal opportunity for that. One might argue that it is a fantasy world thus it doesn’t need to be ‘equalised’ but there’s a reason that rampant racism, homophobia, etc aren’t prevalent in gaming whilst objectification of women is; the composition is derived from the perceived social values of the audience and its creators.

 

In reality, it is always small groups that change the masses or spark dormant feelings rather than the ‘majority’ imposing their will as the majority are ‘cattle’ and ‘moral slaves,’ as Nietzsche put it. Any change is inevitably viral in nature. Consequently, I’m hoping change in this domain can be sparked by developers willing to try that path. For me, any game that crafts a fantasy social structure with complete silent equality will get my custom over something akin to this. Majoritarianism is irrelevant when the majority get swept up in change and are persuaded so easily. If ochlocracy were a reality in every nation then nothing would change as the static majority would always prevent it. Fortunately, that isn’t the case as per the above. I would argue that the de facto oligarchies render the majority a minor factor, but that's another discussion. I would hardly place much stock in the whims of the mobile vulgus as justification for anything because the very values they supposedly threaten to impose via force (how anyone can claim to speak on their behalf without rigorous evidence, I'll never know) are shifting constantly due to new inputs. I'll always regard the idea that the 'majority wants it' as an easily rectified argumentum ad populum that can be overturned with logic due to the inherent desire to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Sufran

[plusieurs]

One's being a part of the majority does not make them privileged. Despite your persuasive language you fail to realize that colorful words don't make your argument coherent.

...

 

The reason that we keep using the word 'privilege' is because it's an established concept in sociology, and that is what I suggested that you google (there's all kinds of sociocultural privilege, all equally enlightening to learn about). It's not colorful words, it's just the term that is used for that concept.