Expertise: The root of all evil

[Coplann]

Dear developers,

 

Ive played PvP in Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online and Age of Conan and the truth is, Expertise probably is the worst implementation of PvP Progress ever.

 

Expertise is the reason my class (operative) and smugglers are in the process of being nerfed hard, without any compensation.

 

10K Crits? On who? By whom? In PvE with 50 and decent gear I hit lower level weak mobs with maybe 3.3 K damage (with player buffs, no stims) with my opener as it is.

Overpowered? how? I mean afterwards my damage is mediocre, and my survivability is laughable.

 

So, now with zero competence, I enter PvP and get roflstomped by people who farmed themself to rank 60 and run 700 or so expertise.

 

I attack a Sorc from stealth/behind and its: absorb, absorb, absorb - blinded... dead

 

Some sabre wielding guy hits me for 4000. 5000, 4000- dead in a matter of seconds. I hit back in that time, maybe for <2000 damage.

 

So yeah, a player spending time to rank up in pvp should have an advantage over a fresh level 50 without any ranks. But not by that margin. We are not talking about 20 or 30% more power, we talk about 100 or more percent in comparison (zero expertise versus full).

 

So what is the reasoning for this? There is none and the level 50 bracket does not help, unless you add pvp-rank based brackets in addition. Which is a lame excuse for balance.

 

Better would be to get rid of expertise and instead add an DAoC/WAR like Realm Ability system or an alternative skill tree to spec with pvp skill points like AoC. Allow for small boost to the characters stats, maybe allow new skills or additions to the class, but not or never simply apply such a boost to raw damage, mitigation or healing like that.

 

As it is now, a fresh 50 has to go through hours of pain, of being farmed, slaughtered and being mostly useless by all those rank 60 people.

 

my .2 credits

[Darth_Nox]

No, you're dead on right - and people who don't understand this broken BS mechanic are going after the classes were individuals have exploited it.

 

Really, do you feel overpowered? You're not, the system is broken to hell.

 

What is really alarming is that the devs are supposedly 'running the numbers' but came up with invalid conclusions from which they are taking action that will only shift the problem to other front-loaded damage classes, while hurting pve damage (which is totally unrelated and in NO WAY overpowered for Operatives/Scoundrels)

 

The next class that they will 'run the numbers' on I am guessing will be BH, who will end up getting rail shot and tracer missile nerfed due to the damage base with high expertise + adrenals etc.

 

The fact that the devs are willing to consider harming a classes PVE performance when that class is obviously in no way overpowered in pve is a huge red flag. That shows contempt for the player, and I hate to say it but it's an incompetent decision.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Darth_Nox

[Gdank]

+1 to the thread

[philderbeast]

Dear developers,

 

Ive played PvP in Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online and Age of Conan and the truth is, Expertise probably is the worst implementation of PvP Progress ever.

 

Expertise is the reason my class (operative) and smugglers are in the process of being nerfed hard, without any compensation.

 

10K Crits? On who? By whom? In PvE with 50 and decent gear I hit lower level weak mobs with maybe 3.3 K damage (with player buffs, no stims) with my opener as it is.

Overpowered? how? I mean afterwards my damage is mediocre, and my survivability is laughable.

 

So, now with zero competence, I enter PvP and get roflstomped by people who farmed themself to rank 60 and run 700 or so expertise.

 

I attack a Sorc from stealth/behind and its: absorb, absorb, absorb - blinded... dead

 

Some sabre wielding guy hits me for 4000. 5000, 4000- dead in a matter of seconds. I hit back in that time, maybe for <2000 damage.

 

So yeah, a player spending time to rank up in pvp should have an advantage over a fresh level 50 without any ranks. But not by that margin. We are not talking about 20 or 30% more power, we talk about 100 or more percent in comparison (zero expertise versus full).

 

So what is the reasoning for this? There is none and the level 50 bracket does not help, unless you add pvp-rank based brackets in addition. Which is a lame excuse for balance.

 

Better would be to get rid of expertise and instead add an DAoC/WAR like Realm Ability system or an alternative skill tree to spec with pvp skill points like AoC. Allow for small boost to the characters stats, maybe allow new skills or additions to the class, but not or never simply apply such a boost to raw damage, mitigation or healing like that.

 

As it is now, a fresh 50 has to go through hours of pain, of being farmed, slaughtered and being mostly useless by all those rank 60 people.

 

my .2 credits

 

quoting truth....

[Caribroo]

I thought full battlemaster gear was...

 

10% damage

10% healing

10% mitigation

 

Am I crazy? Because I'm pretty sure I'm not. When everyone has Battlemaster it will literally cancel itself out.

 

Age of Conan was being hopelessly farmed by PVP10's, that was awful. In that game they had so many more abilities that completely broke their class. Void of Madness anyone? How about Master Assassins critting for 8k? 10% in SWTOR ain't no thang bro.

 

I mean if you played AoC you know how carebear and forgiving SWTOR is. Assasins had CC immunity, more CC than anyone, silence, knockdown, root, stun, AoE Mez/fear, single target fear, insane one button AoE burst...

 

I agree that an extra stat just for PvP is annoying, but 10% isn't game breaking. If you PvP and are serious about it you'll end up with it anyway.

 

It is a reward for the QQers who want something for their time, but it isn't a massive advantage that doesn't make you want to PvP against the nolifers who already have it.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Caribroo

[Tristanian]

So what is the reasoning for this?

 

The reasoning is, raiders (even worse raider premades) would be able to go into warzones with full Rakata/Columi and 18-19k+ hp and be able to steamroll people, at which point, the PvPers would fill buckets with tears, stating that they need to grind PvE encounters to get gear for PvP. As it stands, sure fresh 50's will have a hard time, but they still have the chance to eventually get their own gear and even out the odds. No, its not the best or most fair system in the universe, but the alternatives are not that attractive.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Tristanian

[dannythefool]

I attack a Sorc from stealth/behind and its: absorb, absorb, absorb - blinded... dead

 

I would kind of expect that from a sorc who I know has been PVPing a lot. It's not really only possible because of a single stat.

 

Some sabre wielding guy hits me for 4000. 5000, 4000- dead in a matter of seconds. I hit back in that time, maybe for <2000 damage.

 

Well, expertise would only account for maybe 15% of a difference, so again there's something else happening here.

 

I don't like expertise myself. However, the other stats on BM gear are also pretty good. Just removing expertise won't fix the problem you think you're seeing. If at all there needs to be a separate bracket to get the higher tier gear, so people who want to play with gear on that level get to play against other people on the same level.

[Tharrn]

The reasoning is, raiders (even worse raider premades) would be able to go into warzones with full Rakata/Columi and 18-19k+ hp and be able to steamroll people, at which point, the PvPers would fill buckets with tears, stating that they need to grind PvE encounters to get gear for PvP. As it stands, sure fresh 50's will have a hard time, but they still have the chance to eventually get their own gear and even out the odds. Not, its not the best or most fair system in the universe, but the alternatives are not that attractive.

 

Full BM has the expertise AND a health advantage over a fresh level 50 that never bothered to get raid outfits. The only option is to prepare by getting orange gear and high-end mods as pointed out in a good thread I am too lazy to search for

[raistek]

Full battlemaster is about 13% if I'm correct. I'm running with almost 12% with no battlemaster gear.

 

If you think fresh 50 are having such a hard time on warzones, well go to max lvl in WoW and go to battleground. 70% hp hits guaranteed.

 

 

Why people can't you understand that the point of expertise is to distinguish pvp gear from pve gear. So people who farm warzones can't go to hrdmode operations and people from operations do not rock on warzones. Is this really that hard to get?

 

On a sidenote - I rolled out recently in my pve gear to check some warzones. It is quite decent and to be honest i forgot to switch to pvp gear at the start but i run through like 7 warzones. PvP consumable + cooldowns + stim and i was quite easy killing people - got 6-9 medals each warzone.

 

Next time I'll fraps it and throw out to youtube so i can just post a movie under topics like this one.

[Vibeth]

You mention AoC... that game had the WORST PvP gear imbalance ever. As a fresh 80 in PvP I would smack on PvP lvl 6+ guys for days and I would only take a portion of their health, while they slapped me twice and I died.

 

Way worse than in SW:ToR.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Vibeth

[Orangerascal]

Another person that does not understand the role of expertise.

 

It's a normalization tool and a pve gating mechanic. If you're challenging someone with equivalent expertise the expertise stat does not matter and negates itself. Expertise can also be called: +xxx cunning and + xxx endurance. +xxx cunning gives you more healing and more damage while xxx endurance increases your effective health (meaning you take less damage).

 

You're probably complaining about gear scaling .... seeing as gear in this game is ridiculously easy to get. There is a 2-3 week hell period (1.5 hours/day) that new 50's need to go through in order to become competitive with higher ranks. We all did it, some of us are even doing it again with alts.

 

Lastly the best combination of gear is PVE and PVP. Expertise has diminishing returns after 500. The min/max people should have a field day with this one.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Orangerascal

[dannythefool]

You're probably complaining about gear scaling .... seeing as gear in this game is ridiculously easy to get. There is a 2-3 week hell period (1.5 hours/day) that new 50's need to go through in order to become competitive with higher ranks. We all did it, some of us are even doing it again with alts.

 

Then of course, I see a very valid question in why should there be a mandatory period of 2-3 weeks where the game is not fun by design? I mean, I may be going out on a limb there but I'm kind of assuming most people here bought it to have fun. It's also definitely possible to design PVP and progression so that it doesn't have this kind of fun bump.

Edited January 30, 2012 by dannythefool

[Tristanian]

Full BM has the expertise AND a health advantage over a fresh level 50 that never bothered to get raid outfits. The only option is to prepare by getting orange gear and high-end mods as pointed out in a good thread I am too lazy to search for

 

I do not disagree with this. Of course he will have an advantage. The thing is, you need some sort of system to separate the PvE and PvP endgame in terms of benefits/gear. They could either do this by using a stat (similar to WoW) or introduce a system with separate skills as has been suggested. They opted to go for expertise, with all its benefits (?) and shortcomings. Taking into consideration that tons of people already have full exp sets, I very much doubt that they are going to abolish the stat altogether. The forums would crash

[MatchpointServe]

Dear developers,

 

Ive played PvP in Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online and Age of Conan and the truth is, Expertise probably is the worst implementation of PvP Progress ever.

 

Expertise is the reason my class (operative) and smugglers are in the process of being nerfed hard, without any compensation.

 

10K Crits? On who? By whom? In PvE with 50 and decent gear I hit lower level weak mobs with maybe 3.3 K damage (with player buffs, no stims) with my opener as it is.

Overpowered? how? I mean afterwards my damage is mediocre, and my survivability is laughable.

 

So, now with zero competence, I enter PvP and get roflstomped by people who farmed themself to rank 60 and run 700 or so expertise.

 

I attack a Sorc from stealth/behind and its: absorb, absorb, absorb - blinded... dead

 

Some sabre wielding guy hits me for 4000. 5000, 4000- dead in a matter of seconds. I hit back in that time, maybe for <2000 damage.

 

So yeah, a player spending time to rank up in pvp should have an advantage over a fresh level 50 without any ranks. But not by that margin. We are not talking about 20 or 30% more power, we talk about 100 or more percent in comparison (zero expertise versus full).

 

So what is the reasoning for this? There is none and the level 50 bracket does not help, unless you add pvp-rank based brackets in addition. Which is a lame excuse for balance.

 

Better would be to get rid of expertise and instead add an DAoC/WAR like Realm Ability system or an alternative skill tree to spec with pvp skill points like AoC. Allow for small boost to the characters stats, maybe allow new skills or additions to the class, but not or never simply apply such a boost to raw damage, mitigation or healing like that.

 

As it is now, a fresh 50 has to go through hours of pain, of being farmed, slaughtered and being mostly useless by all those rank 60 people.

 

my .2 credits

 

 

 

Agreed. Remove expertise, add skill caps, and PvP will actually be about skill (well, kind of...)

[GrymTruth]

Expertise and its cousin resilience were horrible mechanics on inception.

 

Gear scaling is also horrible in this game, its very much like WOW's.

 

And to whoever said that it takes 1.5hrs a day for two weeks to get geared out. Your not playing on my server. I've gone 6 hours without a win before.

 

The daily pvp quest is more like a bi-daily since im not in a pvp guild.

[MatchpointServe]

I do not disagree with this. Of course he will have an advantage. The thing is, you need some sort of system to separate the PvE and PvP endgame in terms of benefits/gear. They could either do this by using a stat (similar to WoW) or introduce a system with separate skills as has been suggested. They opted to go for expertise, with all its benefits (?) and shortcomings. Taking into consideration that tons of people already have full exp sets, I very much doubt that they are going to abolish the stat altogether. The forums would crash

 

 

 

So then add some stat like expertise to PvE. I never PvE, so I couldn't care less. If the sets for PvP and PvE were equal, so be it. It's the PvE'ers that complain about that sort of thing.

 

Add some new stat -- let's call it +balls. If you have 0 +balls, you get owned by mobs big time. If you have 1000 +balls, they can't crit you and you're more likely to crit them. Problem solved. PvP is still competitive and PvE'ers can stop complaining about PvP gear. Meanwhile, top PvE gear in the PvP world will be just as good as the top PvP gear, meaning that the end result is based upon skill -- not whoever has the most expertise.

[Orangerascal]

Then of course, I see a very valid question in why should there be a mandatory period of 2-3 weeks where the game is not fun by design? I mean, I may be going out on a limb there but I'm kind of assuming most people here bought it to have fun. It's also definitely possible to design PVP and progression so that it doesn't have this kind of fun bump.

 

Why do lvl 49's have a ridiculous advantage over level 10's? It's basically the same problem. The answer is: because at the extremes of any bracket of any game, there will always be lower tiered players. It happened in:

 

RIFT

WOW

WAR

AOC

ROM

AO

etc.

etc.

 

You think two weeks is bad ... try playing wow without honour gear, or try and do an arena. The RIFT grind will take at least 1 month before you're even competitive.

 

This is the genre you chose where character progression is a big part of the game. GW2 is changing the model and let's see how that plays out. I bet you though the same players will still QQ about something else ... like premades.

 

 

And to whoever said that it takes 1.5hrs a day for two weeks to get geared out. Your not playing on my server. I've gone 6 hours without a win before.

 

Then your server sucks, reroll or make friends. I play republic too and I win more than my fair share.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Gwal]

The gear is scaled not just boosted. A lvl 11 in full esseles gear will have more HP and damage output potential than a 46 in level 40 gear.

 

I actually quite like this.

[BubblegumYeti]

Dear developers,

 

Ive played PvP in Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online and Age of Conan and the truth is, Expertise probably is the worst implementation of PvP Progress ever.

 

 

TBH in WAR high RR players could easily take out 10 low RR players.

 

It is not easy to do PvP in an MMO AND allow the players some kind of progression (a lot of players expect this and people seem to be only interested if they can become "stronger"). I think there should be a "point" system like in tabletop games. Every player will get a score based on his gear and a WZ will allow a certain amount of points. This would result in uneven numbers of players with the lower geared team having more members. No MMO has done this sadly... (yet) probably because people will whine when they have to play 6v8.

[Gwal]

So then add some stat like expertise to PvE. I never PvE, so I couldn't care less. If the sets for PvP and PvE were equal, so be it. It's the PvE'ers that complain about that sort of thing.

 

Add some new stat -- let's call it +balls. If you have 0 +balls, you get owned by mobs big time. If you have 1000 +balls, they can't crit you and you're more likely to crit them. Problem solved. PvP is still competitive and PvE'ers can stop complaining about PvP gear. Meanwhile, top PvE gear in the PvP world will be just as good as the top PvP gear, meaning that the end result is based upon skill -- not whoever has the most expertise.

 

 

^^ this.

 

But some "hardcore" PvPer will tell you doing this will make raiders own pVpers without reading or understanding it in the slightest. P

[GrymTruth]

The gear is scaled not just boosted. A lvl 11 in full esseles gear will have more HP and damage output potential than a 46 in level 40 gear.

 

I actually quite like this.

 

Were not talking pre-50.

 

Were talking about the scaling between different sets of gear at lvl 50.

[Husanak]

Bolster is an awsome system... was a great idea. As it turns out though the brilliant dev that designed that system.... was not the person that decided too add expertise too the game.

 

There is a reason people are saying 10-49 is fun... its because a level 22 in Blue 22 gear will be likely more then equal too a 49 in 46 blue gear... and it will really come down too skill 9 times out of 10.

 

Expertise... people will go on on and its a pve gating mechanic ect ect.

 

Too be honest if that is the case then add the gate mechanic too the gear it should be on... the PvE gear. Honesty add a PvE stat version of Expertise and the issue is fixed... 1-50 can be turned back on, the very well designed bolster system works as it should and everyone is happy.

 

I guess when it comes down too it... the money decisions trumped the Design decision. Gear grind and Asian mmo style grind fest grab bags win.... I had almost no interest in GW2... and now I am really hoping they do PvP right.

[DarylMusashi]

 

So yeah, a player spending time to rank up in pvp should have an advantage over a fresh level 50 without any ranks.

 

This is the same fallacy you are arguing against in your overall post. The only advantage the player ranking up should have over the fresh noob is the experience gained from participating. The experienced, ranked up player will have better reaction time, know what to do in just about every situation, and have a more polished approach to the combat. This is all that player needs. To then give them a gear or stat advantage of any kind will only make things so terrible for the fresh noob that they will simply stop participating. This is how PvP fails in MMOs.

 

As an analogy, back in say 1995, some guy spends all day in the arcade mastering Street Fighter. He is so polished that no noob without much experience stands a chance of beating him. Do you then give him a 10% boost to the damage he deals as well as make his noob opponents deal 10% less damage to him? Its a ridiculous concept, and this is the very reason the gear chase ruined Warcraft's PvP.

 

Ranking up should simply be a measure of experience. Sure, give out a title or two for those that excel, but absolutely do not give any stat advantage of any kind as this will kill it for the majority of people.

[Fdzzaigl]

What I don't understand is: why does expertise give +damage?

 

I understood the need for resilience in WoW as a damage reducing stat against ever increasing burst in PvE, even though it underpowered some other classes.

 

But in TOR, expertise does nothing to reduce damage against similar specced opponents, as their damage is buffed just as much as their protection.

 

It only gives (more) advantages to:

 

1) veterans over newbies, who are facing both a damage and a protection gap.

 

2) burst over sustained damage, as crits get ever higher combined with surge rating, and crit rating can make defensive stats like shield rating less effective.

[Razot]

90% of this games problems comes from PVP gear progression.

 

People say they wouldnt PVP without it.. I say you are not PVPing anyway with it unless you call AFK in WF's, trade killing on Ilum or any of the other stupid crap non pvpers do for gear while making a joke out of this game turning it into a $200 million version of farmville.. grats btw cause that is epic stupidity!

 

If we had other rewards for PVP outside of gear the only thing that would suck in Ilum is the lag. Most people who like to PVP (real pvpers in fact) all we need is if its red its dead! The only reward we need is well today its my victory the next time we meet it may be yours.

 

 

So word up! Ilum is not good but its not broken we just need an open place and i mean any open place to fight so the only thing thats broken in this game is the progression and YOU!.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Razot