No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[Kashaan]

Yes.

 

5. Change the boss loot system to a mission reward w/ 2 items from the boss's loot table and everyone can pick one of them, thereby negating all the discussion around 1-4.

 

If you don't get 2 things you like, you run it again and again until you get everything you want (just like people do now).

 

The only negative I see is people who get winning enjoyment from winning + someone else losing, but that seems like an acceptable loss.

 

 

Doesn't work with MMOs. That's giving out way too much gear way too fast. That's the reason they have Commendations.

 

There is no "set in stone" way to do loot. That's why BW leaves it free for people to choose.

 

Discuss and make your loot rules clear before you do the content. That's the best and fairest way to decide loot.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Kashaan

[Setanian]

It doesn't matter what level the content is ..and I agree the topic name is somewhat rigid.

 

But the debate actually goes beyond the rigidity of the topic. The need/greed system is an honor system that "should" be adhered to.

 

The real issues seem to stem from folks opinions on how orange gear should be catagorised within the system. I say that modable or not, the shell is still just cosmetic and the priority should go to the stats.

 

The real issue is people think I "should' do something, that in effect gives them a better chance of winning loot. Not going to happen.

 

The need/greed honour system is a fallacy, adhered to by those who want to get their gear sooner at the expense of others.

 

Additionally, while it "may" have worked on other games, the fact that we have companions negates any need/greed system as it was.

[SnoggyMack]

If it's something you really want, and everyone rolls greed and you don't win..just ask the winner if you can have it. If they say no...oh well. It's not the end of the world.

 

If it's something they really wanted. And they didn't get it. They make threads like this about it. And that's how we all came together to meet each other on the forums.

 

[sjmc]

The real issues seem to stem from folks opinions on how orange gear should be catagorised within the system. I say that modable or not, the shell is still just cosmetic and the priority should go to the stats.

However, to others the value is in the shell, not the mods. Therefore both "need" it for different reasons. Let them roll.

 

Mods are useful for a level or two, while an orange item chosen for appearance can last for many levels -- and even come out of storage later.

 

If you consider an orange item to be a shell that holds some mods that you want, and that one orange piece is as good as any other with the same stats, then I can see how you might consider that the priority should favour the stats.

 

However, not everyone considers all orange pieces to be interchangeable. Appearance matters to some people and orange gear is primarily for appearance. It is also for upgradability, but if you don't care about appearance, any orange item will do and there are lots around.

[GeekNius]

Let me repeat one key-point here again:

Mod'able Gear!

 

The only way to EVER need on mod'able gear for stats is if you were too cheap (->greedy) to keep your already owned mod'able gear up to date. Except if we're talking Black Talon/Esseles here.

 

So, can anyone please answer me how a person that's too greedy to buy/craft mods is more entitled to an orange drop than some person who actually puts in the effort?

How is it less greedy that you'll sell your old gear, and will sell the piece you're now contesting in another couple days ... how is that less greedy than someone who will put in the effort and credits to keep that contested piece of gear in perfect shape as he's wearing it for looks?

 

What you're trying to tell me here is that not putting in effort entitles you to more loot than putting in effort. That not working entitles you to more than working.

And you really think that's right?

And want everyone to agree with you?

You serious?

[Grecanis]

Or.. Tell everyone to roll 'need'..

 

Or.. Ask BW to remove the need button entirely.

 

Most folks live in a "glass is half full" world and fully believe that thier fellows will do the right thing ..so they roll greed.

 

Why should BW have to change a system that works as long as everyone honors it?

 

I'll answer that ..because there are still those few who won't honor it

[sjmc]

What you're trying to tell me here is that not putting in effort entitles you to more loot than putting in effort.

But that's the whole point of need before greed. If you wear the best you can get on the GTN, then you probably won't "need" very much. This lets the people that don't like to buy their gear from the GTN or crafters (different playstyles) get a priority on loot. Edited January 29, 2012 by sjmc

[Setanian]

Most folks live in a "glass is half full" world and fully believe that thier fellows will do the right thing ..so they roll greed.

 

Why should BW have to change a system that works as long as everyone honors it?

 

I'll answer that ..because there are still those few who won't honor it

 

I won't honour it because it is a false honour.

 

I will honor what *i* feel is right at the time.

[Grecanis]

Let me repeat one key-point here again:

Mod'able Gear!

 

The only way to EVER need on mod'able gear for stats is if you were too cheap (->greedy) to keep your already owned mod'able gear up to date. Except if we're talking Black Talon/Esseles here.

 

So, can anyone please answer me how a person that's too greedy to buy/craft mods is more entitled to an orange drop than some person who actually puts in the effort?

How is it less greedy that you'll sell your old gear, and will sell the piece you're now contesting in another couple days ... how is that less greedy than someone who will put in the effort and credits to keep that contested piece of gear in perfect shape as he's wearing it for looks?

 

What you're trying to tell me here is that not putting in effort entitles you to more loot than putting in effort. That not working entitles you to more than working.

And you really think that's right?

And want everyone to agree with you?

You serious?

 

I don't feel like writing this out again ..

I think you over estimate the availability of relevent mods. Especially if the player owns several orange pieces.

 

You can usually find them, yes, but normally you're settling for something lesser or overpaying for the good ones. Even the commendation vendors will only get you so far.

 

My Sentinel has two orange LS's, headgear, chest and pants. I could search all day and never find what I could get from one good drop.

 

..and heck, if you really wanted the look and it was BoE, I'd probably give it to you.

[Setanian]

But that's the whole point of need before greed. If you wear the best you can get on the GTN, then you probably won't "need" very much. This lets the people that don't like to buy their gear from the GTN or crafters (different playstyles) get a priority on loot.

 

And why should they be given priority ?

[sjmc]

And why should they be given priority ?

I never understood that part.

[Grecanis]

I won't honour it because it is a false honour.

 

I will honor what *i* feel is right at the time.

 

So it's false because it doesn't suit you "at the time"?

 

Spoken like a true narcissist

[notebene]

Doesn't work with MMOs. That's giving out way too much gear way too fast. That's the reason they have Commendations.

 

There is no "set in stone" way to do loot. That's why BW leaves it free for people to choose.

 

Discuss and make your loot rules clear before you do the content. That's the best and fairest way to decide loot.

 

Well yes and no.

 

In a traditional MMO, when you are running a character, you are looking for things for yourself.

 

In this game, you are looking for things for yourself, and 4-5 other companions.

 

The other option is let them drop empty, and also drop the mods.

 

Boss, dies, up in the window instead of a Hammer Initiate's Tunic fully slotted is:

 

1. Hammer Initiate's Tunic (empty)

2. A random armor mod

3. A random mod-mod

4. Random enhancement

 

4 Things to roll on.

 

Everyone might roll need on 4, since at that level, it's probably just 13 endurance, or something like that.

 

2 and 3 will get rolled on by the class that uses those combinations.

 

1 is rolled on by any medium wearer.

 

Dishes done.

 

And yes, I'm in the "shell is far more valuable than the mods" camp. In my opinion, if it's an OJ 'base' item that I can use for my class, I would very much like to roll need on it.

 

In reality what usually happens is I 'see' it on an early run, and if there's time to ask if anyone minds if I roll need if no one needs b/c I like the shell, I'll ask, otherwise I greed, and make a note of it.

 

The 'next' time I run, I ask if anyone minds if I need it for the shell.

 

So I try to be good, but what ends up happening is it seems like a lot of people say "No, you can't", just to be jerks about it. 'Especially' if it's something that is nice looking, but isn't slotted for my specific class, even if 'no one else' really needs it, purely out of spite. Whether it's because the whole reason I want it is it looks nice, and this is their one, shining opportunity to kick someone who likes things like that in the guy, in the hopes that I'll quit the game crying, and if they do that enough, maybe developers will start spending $300 million making EQ again with corpse runs and experience loss on death...or something else, I don't know.

 

But to me, that's why the whole "let the players do it" is a gift and a curse. On the one hand, you ask for decency when doing need/greed, and that's fine, but then there's the donkey fedoras like the ones in my example that will tell you 'no', which is also not being very fair and decent, especially if absolutely no one else really needs it.

 

And then you might say, "Well if you come across someone like that, roll need on it anyways."

 

And then 'that' snowballs, and we've come full circle back to this.

[sjmc]

I don't feel like writing this out again ..

I am pretty sure nobody is saying that you should not be able to roll "need" on an item if you want it for the stats. Let the dice decide. Edited January 29, 2012 by sjmc

[LifeOfMessiah]

and heck, if you really wanted the look and it was BoE, I'd probably give it to you.

 

I am like this as well. I roll greed most of the time. I can count on one hand how many times I have actually rolled need. Sometimes, I even pass. I find this game extremely enjoyable and want to spread that joy to other players. If I roll greed and win, and can't really use it, but someone else can, I go ahead and give it to them. It's no loss on my part, and it brings a smile to their face.

[MaxonJaxon]

Yes.

 

5. Change the boss loot system to a mission reward w/ 2 items from the boss's loot table and everyone can pick one of them, thereby negating all the discussion around 1-4.

 

If you don't get 2 things you like, you run it again and again until you get everything you want (just like people do now).

 

The only negative I see is people who get winning enjoyment from winning + someone else losing, but that seems like an acceptable loss.

 

Actually i was thinking more about assuming the current system won't change.

 

 

To be honest. I think this is OVERTHINKING it a bit much. Keep it simple. Number 3 is pretty standard and should be applied to every situation. All the others are just ridiculous and too rigid.

 

If it's not your class, or the class of your companion, then don't roll need, simply put. All the class that does have it the option to roll need/greed as they see fit. This has always worked out for me and those that I group with, and has never been too complicated to handle. If it's something you really want, and everyone rolls greed and you don't win..just ask the winner if you can have it. If they say no...oh well. It's not the end of the world.

 

Well i'm a number 3 guy myself, however the reason i posted the list was to get a better understanding of what other people thought and I don't think it's fair to call their opinions ridiculous just because they disagree with yours. But thank you i totally forgot about companions.

 

So here's the new list

 

1. No rules, roll need on whatever you want

 

2. Only roll need if you want the look

 

3. Only roll need if the mods is your class stats and improve them

 

4. Allowed to need if you intend to strip out the mods and replace them

 

5. Allowed to need if it improves your companions stats

[Kashaan]

But to me, that's why the whole "let the players do it" is a gift and a curse. On the one hand, you ask for decency when doing need/greed, and that's fine, but then there's the donkey fedoras like the ones in my example that will tell you 'no', which is also not being very fair and decent, especially if absolutely no one else really needs it.

 

 

That's why you make the rules clear right away.

 

Always make sure the leader rolls last, and if anyone breaks the rules, you kick them before the item drops. If someone is a jerk about loot, spread around to your guild mates and friends that he's a ninja and not to invite him to groups.

[Grecanis]

I am pretty sure nobody is saying that you should not be able to roll "need" on an item if you want it for the stats. Let the dice decide.

 

You're correct, no-one has said that. The post was in answer to the notion that good mods are readily available.

 

Mods are readily aailable ...good ones aren't.

[Setanian]

So it's false because it doesn't suit you "at the time"?

 

Spoken like a true narcissist

 

First off, I doubt you have any medical training that allows you to determine my state of mental health, so as such your opinion is just that.

 

Secondly, I'll point out why it is false.

 

The honour system you talk about dictates that if an item is more suited to one class, that item should be passed onto any member of that class in the group.

 

But, the system is flawed in several places.

 

#1 It demands that people who help get to the point of being able to roll on loot, give up that entitlement to the loot.

 

#2 This system is open to determination of 'need'. It might be 1 in a stat for 1 player or a whole bunch of stats for another.

 

#3 ToR has companions. Those companions need gearing up. Unlike other MMOs, the pet classes did not get geared up.

 

#4 The rules governing the system are too open to individual determination, allowing for debate.

 

#5 The system splits the community/playerbase. We have had people here say they'll demad to know how I intend to roll before I even get to kill a mob. And, if I don't conform to their system, I get kicked.

 

There are so many more. But it's biggest flaw is that it allows people to come here and demand I give my entitlement to roll on loot I earned a right to roll on, because they feel they have that right, so as to allow them a better chance of winning the loot. And they call me selfish !!

[DenverRalphy]

That's why you make the rules clear right away.

 

Always make sure the leader rolls last, and if anyone breaks the rules, you kick them before the item drops. If someone is a jerk about loot, spread around to your guild mates and friends that he's a ninja and not to invite him to groups.

 

Or the leader could just set it to master loot.

[GeekNius]

I don't feel like writing this out again ..

 

Originally Posted by Grecanis

I think you over estimate the availability of relevent mods. Especially if the player owns several orange pieces.

 

You can usually find them, yes, but normally you're settling for something lesser or overpaying for the good ones. Even the commendation vendors will only get you so far.

 

My Sentinel has two orange LS's, headgear, chest and pants. I could search all day and never find what I could get from one good drop.

 

..and heck, if you really wanted the look and it was BoE, I'd probably give it to you.

 

You can write that as often as you want.

 

I've had no probles so far keeping six pieces or more of mod'able gear on my own toons plus at least five pieces of mod'able gear on at least two companions updated.

It's easy. Keep your crafting leveled, use those commendations you keep getting which you won't need for anything else anyway SINCE you're keeping your mod'able gear, and SINCE you're keeping it updated.

 

In fact, the only items I've had to roll "Need" on in the last two weeks were non-mod'able items in slots where no mod'ables exist.

 

ALL you can tell me is that you're too lazy or ... otherwise not able .. to do it.

 

You're being greedy. And even worse, you're trying to hide your greed and/or ignorance behind a (misused) code of morality.

 

 

Newsflash: in THIS GAME, mod'able gear is ALL about cosmetics. 'Only exception currently being end-game PvE and PvP sets, but this topic has no bearing on them since you don't roll on them, you earn them.

And they'll be brought in line with "all about cosmetics", too, in the near future, that has already been announced.

 

I'd see you line of reasoning if we'd be talking about non-mod'ables. Those are all about stats, and getting the most upgrade from them. But we aren't.

 

What I see instead is a loot-wh0ring drama-queen ************ about a lost roll.

 

And I'll gladly type it out again and again until you understand

[LifeOfMessiah]

Actually i was thinking more about assuming the current system won't change.

 

 

 

 

Well i'm a number 3 guy myself, however the reason i posted the list was to get a better understanding of what other people thought and I don't think it's fair to call their opinions ridiculous just because they disagree with yours. But thank you i totally forgot about companions.

 

So here's the new list

 

1. No rules, roll need on whatever you want

 

2. Only roll need if you want the look

 

3. Only roll need if the mods is your class stats and improve them

 

4. Allowed to need if you intend to strip out the mods and replace them

 

5. Allowed to need if it improves your companions stats

 

 

I'm not calling them ridiculous simply because I disagree with them. I am calling them ridiculous because of the unnecessary baggage that would come from implementing rules 1, 2, and 4. Those ideas would never fly in-game as there is too many loopholes and arguments that would ensue. I'm not saying the opinions in and of themselves are ridiculous. I am saying implementing those ideas in-game would be ridiculous.

[Setanian]

Or the leader could just set it to master loot.

 

Why should the leader get any say as to how I decide to roll? Did I not help get to that point? The leader gets to roll how he/she wants, so do I !

[MaxonJaxon]

I'm not calling them ridiculous simply because I disagree with them. I am calling them ridiculous because of the unnecessary baggage that would come from implementing rules 1, 2, and 4. Those ideas would never fly in-game as there is too many loopholes and arguments that would ensue. I'm not saying the opinions in and of themselves are ridiculous. I am saying implementing those ideas in-game would be ridiculous.

 

Ah ok, I apologize. The point is that from what I understand from this thread, people play by these different rules already. I'm not talking about changing game mechanics here just trying to get a feel for what different opinions there are on loot distribution.

Edited January 29, 2012 by MaxonJaxon

[Grecanis]

First off, I doubt you have any medical training that allows you to determine my state of mental health, so as such your opinion is just that.

 

First off ..I made no comment on your mental state ..I merely stated that your reply sounded narcissistic.

 

Secondly, I'll point out why it is false.

 

The honour system you talk about dictates that if an item is more suited to one class, that item should be passed onto any member of that class in the group.

 

But, the system is flawed in several places.

 

#1 It demands that people who help get to the point of being able to roll on loot, give up that entitlement to the loot.

 

the system does not demand ..it suggests.

 

#2 This system is open to determination of 'need'. It might be 1 in a stat for 1 player or a whole bunch of stats for another.

 

That's what this whole debate boils down to ..the definition of "need".

 

#3 ToR has companions. Those companions need gearing up. Unlike other MMOs, the pet classes did not get geared up.

 

If the companion was not in the fight, how do they suddenly earn the right to anything that drops?

 

#4 The rules governing the system are too open to individual determination, allowing for debate.

 

Which is why we're having the debate

 

#5 The system splits the community/playerbase. We have had people here say they'll demad to know how I intend to roll before I even get to kill a mob. And, if I don't conform to their system, I get kicked.

 

Form your own groups ..then you get to make the rules.

 

There are so many more. But it's biggest flaw is that it allows people to come here and demand I give my entitlement to roll on loot I earned a right to roll on, because they feel they have that right, so as to allow them a better chance of winning the loot. And they call me selfish !!

 

No-one is demanding anything from you ...you simply see it that way.