Rerolling - A Plea to Operatives (And Others)

[Zellandine]

I've been lurking on the Healing forums for about a week now, despite having begun playing SWtoR a few days after its release. I've noticed something tremendously disappointing about a majority of the threads in this particular forum.

 

They're all about complaining, but that isn't what saddens me. Most of these complaints are pretty valid, and a few people even suggest good ways of fixing them. There have been intelligent discussions, even amidst the flailing, nonconstructive threads where demands are made that things be fixed without any information as to why, how or what. Even that doesn't sadden me.

 

It's the multitude of Operatives (as well as other underwhelming healing classes) who are jumping ship for the sake of ease, rerolling before any major changes are made to any class in the game. Play what you're going to have fun playing, but please, understand this game is new. The mechanics of some of these classes are new. The concepts are new. This means they aren't locked in, they aren't polished, they aren't finished.

 

The sky isn't falling. Give Bioware a chance. You never know what next week, or next month, will bring.

 

P.S. A good raid/group will take you for your competence and temperament, not because you play the FotM class that is presently (it will not forever remain so) top dog.

[Doki]

As it is now, Operations are much easier with Sorc/Sage healers. This makes them desired over other healing classes in PvE. In PvP, their massive amount of utility coupled with the best throughput, front-loaded healing spells, and dynamic range of heal types makes Sorcs far outshine the other two classes. Toss in the fact that they have ESSENTIALLY NO RESOURCE MANAGEMENT, and you have a formula for the perfect healer.

 

Since Bioware has said nothing on this topic, people are naturally concerned. Its not that Ops and Merc CAN'T do the job, I heal just fine in hard mode, its that Sorcs far and away do better than the other two classes, so whats the point of even having Ops and Mercs around?

 

Further, three trends are worrying Ops and Merc healers:

 

1.) Patch 1.1.1 "shows" that Bio is balancing classes based on forum complaining. Since Sorcs/Sages are the most played class, if this is the case healing will likely never be adjusted. Further, as with Wahammer (since Bio is using the same Mythic team for this game), the devs tended to not nerf very popular classes for fear of a mass migration of players. Never mind this exacerbated the problems and made everyone leave anyway. Speaking of which...

 

2.) Bio is using the Mythic team, and their track record with class balance in Warhammer is probably the worst I've ever seen in a game, ever. People still talk about Bright Wizards for a very good reason.

 

3.) Dev communication on healing issues is in essence zero at this moment. Prior to the Biochem nerfs, the devs at least talked about it beforre action was taken. There is no chatter whatsoever here, leading to the natural conclusion that no action will be taken.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Side note: as an extension of 1, since it appears that forum cries got the Conc Ops nerfed, this only encourages the forums to complain more, as its an effective tools for changes...

Edited January 27, 2012 by Doki

[thecoffeecup]

The last two nights I played, I was the ONLY scoundrel in my leveling zones. For hours. The only one.

 

It feels like the class is being abandoned. It may not be true, but I can certainly understand why people jump ship now.

 

It's not looking like positive balancing is coming, and the class is taking immense amounts of hate from all directions at the same time.

 

What's worse is, my experience from WoW tells that while nerfs come easily, a class can be subpar for absolutely ages.

[Zellandine]

None of this is new to me. I am merely asking that people give the class a chance, without making assumptions. A vast majority of expectations towards the class are exactly that, assumptions. We do not know what is going to occur, and that doesn't mean that what is going to happen is going to be based on how much ************ occurs or doesn't occur. We haven't heard anything yet, but that doesn't mean that something isn't being formulated. They may not have the answer yet, it does not mean the answer won't be found.

 

I'm going to hold out hope, in spite of cynicism and pessimism. It's better than thinking the class is doomed and will never improve. I don't think that Warhammer is quite the success that SWtoR has been, and whether they use the same team or not, maintaining imbalance will not bring them financial success. Either way, don't mistake my post as saying everything is fine. Everything is not fine for these underachieving classes. I'm merely asking that people give them a chance. It's barely been a month. That's all.

[thecoffeecup]

I actually agree with all of that.

 

I am, however, very skeptic by nature so I'm fighting myself on this quite a bit.

[Zinfandel]

I didn't realize the issue w/ Mythic devs.

 

Srs though, I think the dev's are prioritizing in a certain order here.

 

A) Major game bugs. Seems to be issues w/ BW trying to get all of their graphics options working. I.E. AA and Bloom

 

B) Various bugs while leveling up.

 

 

D) The game is out for a month and already ppl. have hit deep into end game mod. While it's awesome there is end game content. I don't think the majority of the imbalance issues are being experienced by a majority of players, as they are not at end game yet.

 

E) There's like a 7:1 Empire to Republic ratio. I think they might be trying to brainstorm some ways to fix that number.

 

F) End game, which probably a minority of their player base is probably at, though an ever growing minority.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Zinfandel

[Damukag]

None of this is new to me. I am merely asking that people give the class a chance, without making assumptions. A vast majority of expectations towards the class are exactly that, assumptions. We do not know what is going to occur, and that doesn't mean that what is going to happen is going to be based on how much ************ occurs or doesn't occur. We haven't heard anything yet, but that doesn't mean that something isn't being formulated. They may not have the answer yet, it does not mean the answer won't be found.

 

I'm going to hold out hope, in spite of cynicism and pessimism. It's better than thinking the class is doomed and will never improve. I don't think that Warhammer is quite the success that SWtoR has been, and whether they use the same team or not, maintaining imbalance will not bring them financial success. Either way, don't mistake my post as saying everything is fine. Everything is not fine for these underachieving classes. I'm merely asking that people give them a chance. It's barely been a month. That's all.

 

It's just as much of an assumption to assume that they will fix the class as it is to assume that they won't. The only difference is that the latter has strong evidence (as the second post has already pointed out) and if you assume the first and you're wrong, it's much more damning than assuming the second and being wrong.

 

If you reroll Sorc there are two outcomes: Other healers fixed or no changes. In the first case, you still have your old healer sitting at level 50 waiting and now you have two competitive healers. If the latter, you're still in the best place possible to be for healing.

 

If you don't reroll sorc, either you're fixed or you're not. If you are, good on you, you're at basically the same place that someone who did reroll sorc is now except that your operative/merc probably has better gear and more experience, a gap that will close pretty damn quickly. If you aren't fixed, though, you've got the worst of all four outcomes.

 

Look at it with game theory: You reroll and you have a chance of a great or decent outcome. You don't reroll, you have a chance of a good or terrible outcome. Which would you prefer?

 

That's not pessimism. That's logic.

[prochuvi]

i was playing at warhammer for 3 months and left it because was hilarious see brightwizards runing and doting to everypeople and killing them on seconds,i back 3 months later and it is the same.

so i havent hope that they fix the healer unbalance here

[Darth_Bond]

As it is now, Operations are much easier with Sorc/Sage healers. This makes them desired over other healing classes in PvE. In PvP, their massive amount of utility coupled with the best throughput, front-loaded healing spells, and dynamic range of heal types makes Sorcs far outshine the other two classes. Toss in the fact that they have ESSENTIALLY NO RESOURCE MANAGEMENT, and you have a formula for the perfect healer.

 

Since Bioware has said nothing on this topic, people are naturally concerned. Its not that Ops and Merc CAN'T do the job, I heal just fine in hard mode, its that Sorcs far and away do better than the other two classes, so whats the point of even having Ops and Mercs around?

 

Further, three trends are worrying Ops and Merc healers:

 

1.) Patch 1.1.1 "shows" that Bio is balancing classes based on forum complaining. Since Sorcs/Sages are the most played class, if this is the case healing will likely never be adjusted. Further, as with Wahammer (since Bio is using the same Mythic team for this game), the devs tended to not nerf very popular classes for fear of a mass migration of players. Never mind this exacerbated the problems and made everyone leave anyway. Speaking of which...

 

2.) Bio is using the Mythic team, and their track record with class balance in Warhammer is probably the worst I've ever seen in a game, ever. People still talk about Bright Wizards for a very good reason.

 

3.) Dev communication on healing issues is in essence zero at this moment. Prior to the Biochem nerfs, the devs at least talked about it beforre action was taken. There is no chatter whatsoever here, leading to the natural conclusion that no action will be taken.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Side note: as an extension of 1, since it appears that forum cries got the Conc Ops nerfed, this only encourages the forums to complain more, as its an effective tools for changes...

 

you sir, are right on the mark!

 

+9000

 

 

FYI i already ditched my Operative for a sorc, maybe someday they'll be on par with sorc healing, till then ill join the bandwagon.

[DrekorSilverfang]

The more people that just ditch op or mercs and rerolling sorc the more obvious the problem will be to bioware. Considering any sort of MMO in the past changes to improve classes can often take months to come down the pipe

[raelimar]

It's just as much of an assumption to assume that they will fix the class as it is to assume that they won't. The only difference is that the latter has strong evidence (as the second post has already pointed out) and if you assume the first and you're wrong, it's much more damning than assuming the second and being wrong.

 

If you reroll Sorc there are two outcomes: Other healers fixed or no changes. In the first case, you still have your old healer sitting at level 50 waiting and now you have two competitive healers. If the latter, you're still in the best place possible to be for healing.

 

If you don't reroll sorc, either you're fixed or you're not. If you are, good on you, you're at basically the same place that someone who did reroll sorc is now except that your operative/merc probably has better gear and more experience, a gap that will close pretty damn quickly. If you aren't fixed, though, you've got the worst of all four outcomes.

 

Look at it with game theory: You reroll and you have a chance of a great or decent outcome. You don't reroll, you have a chance of a good or terrible outcome. Which would you prefer?

 

That's not pessimism. That's logic.

 

Pretty much this. If they buff Operative/Merc healing...great. I have an Operative at 50 and a Merc at 30. If they don't...well, my Sorcerer is on his way to 50. Maybe if enough people reroll as a Sorc healer, it'll show up on BioWare's little "metrics".

Edited January 28, 2012 by raelimar

[Letsplayrift]

if it was a numbers issue, then some people might just wait for nerfs. but actually the mechanics and toolset of a sage/sorc is so superior that it is not easy to see how they will ever fix it.

[Raani]

I leveled my Commando first, and now I'm working on both a Sage and a Scoundrel.

 

The lesson I learned from WoW is that I like healing, no matter what form it takes - bubbles, direct heals, HoTs, etc. I played all four, depending on what the group needed or what I felt like playing at a given time.

 

I'm going to do exactly the same thing in this game, since it's not at all hard to get a set of acceptable gear for HM flashpoints just from dailies and whatever I can craft.

 

As it is, I like all three, although it's probably a tie between Sage and Commando. The Scoundrel I like a little less, but it's mostly because the UI bothers me more than on the other two. The way I see it, it's good to have first-hand experience with all healing styles. Even if you don't end up playing all in the long run, you'll know how to work with other healers.

 

While at this point, I'm pretty sure that the Sage will become my main, I won't sweat it if they buff the others. I know how to play Commando already and I'm doing my best to get comfortable with the Scoundrel. For people like me, it's not a crusade: while I'd love it if they were all equal, I don't care which one is the strongest because I like all of them. I can see, though, how it could be a problem for people who strongly prefer one class.

 

I'm all for balance and I do hope they take our suggestions seriously, but I don't think it's fair to ask people not to reroll, especially since doing so doesn't auto-delete your old main. If they buff troopers, I'll be there with my BFG, welcoming the FotM rerollers

[Zellandine]

"Fair"? I'm not really sure that fair has anything to do with it, beyond thinking it's fair to give BioWare a chance to adjust/balance things before running off to play another class. I don't encourage anyone to play anything they don't want to. My post was aimed at Operatives/Scoundrels who feel that they have to do so to be effective, even if they love the class. I'm not on any sort of crusade, beyond asking that people have patience.

 

Is it an assumption to think that BioWare will 'fix' things? Yes, but I think of it as being a more realistic assumption than to assume that BioWare won't fix or balance anything between the healers. The gap is clearly large enough, and people certainly complain enough that they are, at this point in time, very likely to have a good idea of what the problem is and possibly even some ways to fix things.

 

I just know that when I came to these forums, a majority of the posts were complaints and declarations that they were immediately going to play another class, rather than waiting any length of time to see how things shook out. That's all. At the end of the day, it's just FotM, and I think that any Operative/Scoundrel who sticks it out will be happier for it (if they genuinely enjoy the class, despite its current shortcomings).

[Raani]

"Fair"? I'm not really sure that fair has anything to do with it, beyond thinking it's fair to give BioWare a chance to adjust/balance things before running off to play another class.

 

I'd see your point if playing another class somehow affected BW. As it is, our choice of class doesn't matter as long as we keep paying our subscriptions. I do think they should be monitoring rerolling and trying to do something about classes/specs which people simply don't want to play anymore. It makes good business sense in the long run, since people who are very partial to a certain class may stop playing if their class is underpowered for too long.

 

But really, there is nothing to be gained from sticking with a class instead of rerolling. When and if the wheel turns, you still have your old main and you still know how to play it. There are no cookies for sticking it out, so someone who rerolls and then goes back probably ends up having more fun than someone who was frustrated for a few months.

[Alicy]

I understand completely, why there is so much threads about this.

 

It's not like people aren't giving a chance. It is about making Bioware awere about this.

If there is any experience about WoW or many other MMO's. You know _absolutely nothing is going to happen_ if you do not make your voice heard.

 

Still I must agree, there is maybe too many agressive thread's.

 

It is not nice to play a class, which cannot be par with other one.

Even in healers I play to be "one of the best".

 

It's just as much of an assumption to assume that they will fix the class as it is to assume that they won't. The only difference is that the latter has strong evidence (as the second post has already pointed out) and if you assume the first and you're wrong, it's much more damning than assuming the second and being wrong.

----

That's not pessimism. That's logic.

 

And I agree with Damukag. And I shall reroll a Sorc, but I like their class mechanics too.

 

I don't want to offend, but usually I dislike this kind of post's. People have right to say, what they think: "is wrong with the game". And "Giving a chance" doesn't mean you should just wait quietly. For me it means, I stick with the game, even thou there is some unbalanced things and bugs.

[Ariesen]

I just re-rolled a Scoundrel from a Sorc. Sorc is great and a lot of fun, but I've been nerfed too many times. I may be going against the FOTM, but at least when the nerf hits, I'll have a geared Scoundrel waiting for me.

[Caelrie]

"Fair"? I'm not really sure that fair has anything to do with it, beyond thinking it's fair to give BioWare a chance to adjust/balance things before running off to play another class.

You're acting like we're cheating on Bioware or something.

[Ronamo]

I rolled a Commando to 50, and there's nothing about the healing style I dislike. It could use some tweaking (namely, Kolto Residue not being a reliable buff for a tank is my prime complaint) for sure, but it's by no means broken. Add an interrupt, a combat rez, and fix or improve Kolto Bomb, and you're golden.

 

That being said, I immediately thereafter rolled a Sage. Pre-launch, the Sage was my chosen AC. I was convinced it was what I wanted to play, and there was no changing my mind. What I discovered was that while I really do love the Sage, it's Telekinetics and Balance that I like. Not the Seer tree. Healing as a Sage feels uncomfortable and non-intuitive to me. I've healed with a variety of styles in other MMO's (for example, all of the pre-panda WoW healers, Runepriests and Warriorpriests in WAR), and enjoyed them, whether it was a HOT style, an absorption, group or single-target. The Sage just doesn't appeal to me. That doesn't mean I'm not going to settle in this weekend and give it a stronger, longer try, but as is, regardless of the perceived utility of the class, it just wasn't for me.

[ErrantMercenary]

Look at it with game theory: You reroll and you have a chance of a great or decent outcome. You don't reroll, you have a chance of a good or terrible outcome. Which would you prefer?

 

That's not pessimism. That's logic.

 

Add to this the fact that: Leveling in SWTOR is both very very easy, and has a new storyline for you to enjoy as an added incentive. Unlike in other games where leveling didn't really offer anything new in the way of content, you get a chance to develop a whole new character. It took me maybe two and a half weeks to hit 50 with my Commando, and I went on vacation and had a full time job for the duration.

 

I'm not mad at BioWare for not making any changes yet, it's only been a month and change. The silence is unnerving, sure, but not unfamiliar. If you look at how long it took Hunters from WoW to find a decent niche (five years before they realized they should probably not be a mana class after getting it right in the beta of all places?), virtually no time at all has passed, but I don't stand to lose anything by parking my Commando. It'll only take me two weeks of time I was going to invest into the storyline ANYWAY and I'll have a healer that is competitive, on the considerably more populated faction (more people to do stuff with), AND I get to see a new storyline?

 

You'd be hard pressed NOT to switch. You have to remember that these people "abandoning" their class are ACTIVELY paying money to BioWare. They are entitled to enjoy the game however they see fit, and if they want the biggest most competitive numbers (as most people do), Sage/Sorcerer is the easy choice. It's unfair to expect them to spend 90 dollars and six months playing a class that does not optimize their enjoyment of the game.

 

BioWare can have their time, because having been through the early stages of five other MMOs now, I understand how difficult the first year is. In the meantime however, I will wring every ounce of enjoyment out of every dollar I give them, and no one has any business making me feel ashamed for it.

[Arrys]

The Squeaky Wheel gets the grease. The fact the people are being vocal indicates they don't want to be pigeonholed into playing 1 class but that they aren't foolish enough to risk bioware doesn't have a rational adjustment schedule.

 

People are MMO veterans and it's no longer like getting a class to max level in the early 2000's. The time investment to do so sin't comparable people reroll. It actually gives bio time to fix the problem without losing subs. But they are also very aware if severe class imbalance kicks in in terms of population they'll have serious long term viability issues as new subs shop the game.

 

So they better get on it pretty fast. Fixing the abilities that have been already reported as broken or at least aknowledging they are broken would be a good start.

[Achromatis]

I just started an Op, primarily to heal with. I absolutely love the mechanic for healing, and the class is a load of fun to play in every situation(solo, groups, and pvp).

 

Oh noes, Im not as good as some other class at something! Guess Ill just have not be a noob or that might actually mean anything.

 

 

1.) Patch 1.1.1 "shows" that Bio is balancing classes based on forum complaining. Since Sorcs/Sages are the most played class, if this is the case healing will likely never be adjusted. Further, as with Wahammer (since Bio is using the same Mythic team for this game), the devs tended to not nerf very popular classes for fear of a mass migration of players. Never mind this exacerbated the problems and made everyone leave anyway. Speaking of which...

 

I just want to point out that it only suggests they nerfed Ops quickly based on forum complaints, it does not mean there was not an issue. They likely have a list of balancing changes(probably a lot left over from BETA), they just hit Ops first because that seemed to be bothering the most amount of people. Theyve got base when they do changes on something, going by the most amount of people affected seems to be a pretty logical choice.

 

And they need some kind of baseline to balance around, which will likely be Sorcs(because theyre popular). WoW did this for healers by using Priests, the all around healers. If Ops prove to be too ineffective, theyll buff them. Standard MMO stuff. Just because theyre not doing it RIGHT NOW doesnt mean theyre not going to do it. Hell its better practice to leave drastic changes until new content tiers instead of constantly screwing with peoples classes.