da_krall Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) thats just it, i dont think its mediocre. I like it that way it is. It safisfies my need for a distraction and doesnt take a lot of time or unnecessary complexity. An MMO is about character progression, why are people failing to understand that? OMG - they could like leave in the current space and add something that doesnt suck as well. There could be options! something the rest of the game is sadly lacking in. Its scarey that SWG space combat looks 100 times better than whats in TOR... Also doesnt STO use the hero engine as well? Edited February 10, 2012 by da_krall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conyak Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 OMG - they could like leave in the current space and add something that doesnt suck as well. There could be options! something the rest of the game is sadly lacking in. Its scarey that SWG space combat looks 100 times better than whats in TOR... Also doesnt STO use the hero engine as well? Since everyone can agree that concepts in STOR were BORROWED from other MMO's before its time, STOR needs a compettive advantage and that is Space Combat that is not an after thought. Bioware already said the intend to revamp it. so they have already done the research or realize in its current state most people need to hold back vomit if they have ever played anything past StarFox on Nintendo. Bioware knows how to make good games, and they know what gamers want. After spending this amount of time and money on a game like this they see the potential in where this can go in space. Not only do they understand gamers they have good business acumen which will win out in the end. All we have to do is speak out the we agree that space combat needs to be redone and show that only a minority of people that don;t know what they are talking about because they never played Freelancer or X-Wing should just be that the minority because if they did they would be requesting it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Flin_ Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Space combat as it is now, is just... boring. It was fun while leveling, I like to do it every now and then, but there is just no use to do the same again versus the same computer models coming at you at the same times from the same positions all over again. - nothing to gain - nothing new at all - no change at all You have like 2-3 points where you can blow your ship apart, but if you do not negligently ruin your ship, it is a free ride for... well, nothing. It is not bad, and it was fun while there were still new missions you had to do once or twice to figure out, but at maxlevel it is completely useless. Except maybe to pass time, a few minutes before a raid starts or similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jxspyder Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If you look at games like freelancer or Star Trek Online you don't use a joystick and their space battle gameplay os FAR superior to this railroad crap STOR offers... STO's space combat is far superior to TOR's. Their ground combat, however, resembles late 90's RPG/Action games (pretty ironic huh?), and is pretty pathetic when compared to TOR's ground combat. Maybe we should give TOR a year and a half or so after launch to develop and impliment a whole new game type, as STO (and SWG) did, then judge it. Development takes time. Amazing how few people understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jxspyder Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Great so your feelings about the current space combat are more valid than mine? They are not going to remove it so you should have no problems if they add in better gameplay for those of us that would like to live the experience and not just watch it happen. Can you give me a good reason why the should not include proper space combat? Where did I say that my feelings are more valid than yours? Or anything other than how I disagree with you. A good reason why they shouldn't include proper space combat? Because it takes away resources that could be devoted to improving the game's main focus, the ground combat. Would adding free flight, as is most regularly requested here, be a great addition? Sure, if they take the time to fully develop it, making it as fully fleshed out as the current ground combat system is. But doing that takes time and significant development resources, which will impact the game elsewhere. umm this is Lucas Arts they own the IP for space games already, X-Wing was out 20 years ago and was ahead of its time it would'nt be that hard to refresh and dust that off.... Umm, no. LucasFilms owns the Star Wars IP, they don't own all rights to the game. X-Wing was developed by Totally Games. You don't think they have a say in any of this? Edited February 10, 2012 by Jxspyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GundamDouble-O Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I like the space combat the way it is. Brings me back to the old days of playing Star Fox. I don't think space pvp is needed like some people have said, but multiplayer pve space missions would be cool. Both players could be on their own path (or set of rails) but they can be working together to complete bonuses and mission objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jxspyder Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I think people just swallow anything that is given to them or said (not just regarding Bioware or video games, but overall) If Bioware had made a pac-man space combat for swtor, they would find a way to "justify" (brainwash people) it and everyone will say; oh the pac-man space combat is GREAT, its the only way it could have been done, it's just like the movies etc. The same thing if they made a card battle space combat. Personally, I think people just throw out examples with absolutely no context. Just to make it clear, this is what some are saying no to: STO: STO was designed around space combat. Want to see the comparison? Go look at videos of STO's ground combat, which took nearly a year and a half to release. And looks like it's a 90's action/adventure game. Context is important. X3: skip to 3:50 A space trading and combat simulator. This is absolutely what people are talking about when they say "space simulator." It's also an expansion of another game, X3: Reunion. Your videos are the result of multiple years worth of development. If you're willing to wait until 2014/15 for a free flight expansion, then sure. Freelancer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZq0W9L3h_4 6 years of development time. Freespace 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouxxUFtqC7w&feature=related Again, you're looking at the result of years worth of development. Haegemonia And again. Nexus And again. SWG Homeworld 2 Sins Of a Solar Empire (strategy) And again. I'm sensing a theme here. Every one of these is the result of multiyear development focused solely on space simulation or real-time tactics gameplay. Are you willing to wait until 2014 to realize a space simulator expansion that has as much attention as you're requiring? Knowing full well that the current space combat was never intended to be more than a mini-game, and as such isn't comparable? Edited February 10, 2012 by Jxspyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blotter Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLA2C58CDFF32FA25C That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jxspyder Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLA2C58CDFF32FA25C That is all. That is all. See how silly it is to sum up the entirety of an opposing viewpoint in a single video clip? Edited February 10, 2012 by Jxspyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeflonScoundrel Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Space combat needs to be expanded in my opinion, but that doesn't mean they can't leave the current missions the way they are and just add other missions that offer more freedom. I'd love to have some open space pvp zones where we would have more control over flying how and where we want to. Along with that having ability to earn ship upgrades through looting npc ships or pvp rewards or best of all some type of RE system would give people room to develop their ship and improve. I don't think it has too be too complicated, but I would like to see more freedom and more choices in the type of space combat, the types of ships and ship equipment that is available in the game. I don't feel it should be a requirement to participate, but having the option would be great. The more depth the better, but I'd take anything I could get to improve space combat, as it would add to the variety of things to do in game immensely. Edited February 10, 2012 by TeflonScoundrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blotter Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) That is all. See how silly it is to sum up the entirety of an opposing viewpoint in a single video clip? Actually, I wasn't really summing up the post like that or intending to make fun...jsut thought the similarity in choice of words was funny. Not to mention that the dude in the videio is hilarious. Personally, I like the space combat, altho it could be a little more varied and give you a bit more control/room to explore. Not something I could play for hours straight, but a decent diversion for XP and/or credits when questing starts to drag. And I'm not sure how your video proved anything to me about my post? The WoW addict teenager freaking out is an absolute scream as well...makes me lmfao every time. Edited February 10, 2012 by Blotter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhit Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 When I think of Star Wars--I don't think about running around on Tatoinne killing wamp rats--I think about large scale space combat with lots of x-wings and tie fights zipping around a bunch of capital ships. Sorry the OP is running the game with a decade old computer. Let's hope TOR is around long enough for an engaging space combat expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarka Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Those who know me on here will know how much I've been involved in the discussions about space combat. Personally, and I must emphasise that word again, PERSONALLY speaking I would like to see a "richer" form of space combat. Star Wars is an IP built off of both ground AND space combat. Not just one or the other. That is a simple and plain fact. It is undeniable. The ground combat in this game gives players a certain degree of freedom that far exceeds what is found in a Tunnel Shooter. Therefore, I think it is a shame that space combat isn't given the same level of freedom in movement too. The engine can apparently do it (see here for rough sample) It just comes down to what the devs want to / can do. Am I talking about a "flight sim"? No. Not in the traditional sense. Am I inferring that I want SWG 2.0 or Eve 2.0 inside TOR? No. Get that idea right out of your head.Am I talking about the removal of the tunnel shooter? No. I appreciate that some like that kind of gameplay, so that can be left in the game. I would just like to see the kind of freedom in movement and control that is seen in games like Freelancer, because I think that strikes a middle ground between a tunnel shooter and a "full" simulator. Do I care about whether someone will try to exaggerate / generalise / use a strawman argument and claim that I'm wanting a full flight simulator? Nope. I'm past all that. Jump to whatever conclusions you care to. If you making any leaps in logic, then you are probably wrong. In short, I think space combat and the entire context of space in this game is too shallow. There's so much potential there that is not being tapped into. P.S. My post is directed at the devs, not forum posters. P.P.S. whilst the devs MAY have a plan for space, we aren't being told enough to keep us hopeful. In fact, that applies for ALL aspects of the game. So it's no wonder that people voice concerns. Edited February 10, 2012 by Tarka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickabrack Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Space Combat isn't nearly good enough. It's too shallow. Not enough to it. it needs more. Asking for control of your ship outside of a tunnel doesn't = space sim. I don't want a space sim either. I just want to be able to dog fight freely. I want to play it with friends. I want it to matter to the rest of the game. I want it to fit. It doesn't fit right now. Don't judge me monkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakua Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Take it off rails for those who want free flight, no sim elite controls required. You would use the same WASD and attack keys you use on ground pretty much. I would love to take flight from time to time and go adventure around maybe stumble upon a random convoy or another player and get some pew pew going on. ability to zoom in to cockpit view or zoom out the 3rdP. I see nothing wrong with any of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striker_KOJ Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Even for an On-Rails experience, its incomplete and childish. Sure, the graphics are pretty, but other than that, it's too EASY. I am not some elite gaming snob, but there is little to no challenge, and thus it's not as engaging as I feel the Devs intended. A few issues specific to this rail-shooter that really bother me: You can target and damage objectives on the other side of objects. Missles are stopped by objects, and blasters are stopped by large asterioids, but blasters can shoot "through" everything else. It's ridiculous that I can destroy turrets on the far-side of a frigate or destroyer by just "knowing" where the turret is on the other side. My blasters appear to hit the ships hull, but stuff on the OPPOSITE side is being damaged and destroyed. What a way to encourage more spamming lasers. It's so sloppy, doesn't make sense, and makes a simple game even simpler. There are some levels where it is literally impossible to lose. Obviously you must complete the primary objective (which is often easily achievable early in the level, leaving minutes of wasted time). If you leave the crosshairs in the center of the screen, you can litterally walk away from the computer and return to a completed quest. I guess this achieves exactly what the developers intended. A simple distraction to do when you are bored of the game. I haven't played Star Fox in years, but as everyone keeps comparing the game to Star Fox, do you recall EVER being able to kill enemies through objects, or EVER being able to drop the controller and walk away, only to return to a completed level? Another minor complaint; the "chatter" is sparce, and rarely relates to anything going on on the screen. Companions, and the player character, throw out random exclaimations or statements, at seemingly random times. There is no chatter between your character and all of the "friendly" ships in the area. No suprise or alarm when you see big ships other than "we have to kill that thing?"... and then you are forced to fly right passed "that thing" and 30 seconds later the level is over. (No, you don't have to kill that thing, nor are you allowed to.) There is no sense of urgency or drama. Just a repetative orchestra track and the ocassional "yeah, Im good...". What happened to "Cinematic" and "Heroic" and "Epic" and all those buzz words that were used to justify WHY the game had to be a rail shooter. I have started playing left handed just to give myself a "challenge", but even that isn't proving any more difficult. The enemies are so slow, and die so quick, and you are spoonfed so many dumb enemies that the hardest part about the game is LOSING. So yeah, keep arguing whatever you want against any sort of alternate (better) space combat, but please stop trying to tell us that this product is "great" or even "fine as is". It is incomplete, sloppy, and painfully easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubernetic Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't want a space simulator either. Frankly, Star Wars was never a realistic space representation. It has always been aerodynamic dogfighting in space as if you were still in an atmosphere. So a space sim wouldn't even fit the subject matter. But the space missions as we have them are already set in 3D environments, with 3D ships and obstacles floating in space. With a few changes, such as adding a throttle and the ability to roll left or right, space combat off the rails could become a great addition to the game. I would love the idea of 50 vs 50 warzones in space. And while I have absolutely ZERO interest in PVP at this point on the ground, I would LOVE space PVP. So for me, and I would wager a number of other players (how many is up for grabs), expanding space would be helping to provide me some kind of end game play that I may not receive in the game's current incarnation. It doesn't have to have all of the complexity of X-Wing. But the ability to have space PVP battles, and even some sandbox elements like trading cargo supplies from one world to another (with the opportunity of having those pirated if you're shot down in the process) would be a fun addition. Expanded ship selections would also be fantastic, including smaller snub fighters and cargo transports, and the ability to customize the look of the ships we have would be even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJediKnight Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 The current space game sucks. Honestly, at this point I believe the only thing that can save this game would be to really develop the hell out of space and turn it into a believable sim -- not some hammy, half-baked minigame, but a real, integrated part of the TOR experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulcanLogic Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I wouldn't mind space combat in an MMO. Getting bored with the rails but I understand the challenges of making open space combat more interesting. If any of you played Starfleet Command about 12 years ago, I wrote scripts for those missions (including Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country with full VO). I was hoping for something like that, mission based only with more story and a little more action than capital ship vs capital ship provides. These do take some time, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conyak Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Even for an On-Rails experience, its incomplete and childish. Sure, the graphics are pretty, but other than that, it's too EASY. I am not some elite gaming snob, but there is little to no challenge, and thus it's not as engaging as I feel the Devs intended. A few issues specific to this rail-shooter that really bother me: You can target and damage objectives on the other side of objects. Missles are stopped by objects, and blasters are stopped by large asterioids, but blasters can shoot "through" everything else. It's ridiculous that I can destroy turrets on the far-side of a frigate or destroyer by just "knowing" where the turret is on the other side. My blasters appear to hit the ships hull, but stuff on the OPPOSITE side is being damaged and destroyed. What a way to encourage more spamming lasers. It's so sloppy, doesn't make sense, and makes a simple game even simpler. There are some levels where it is literally impossible to lose. Obviously you must complete the primary objective (which is often easily achievable early in the level, leaving minutes of wasted time). If you leave the crosshairs in the center of the screen, you can litterally walk away from the computer and return to a completed quest. I guess this achieves exactly what the developers intended. A simple distraction to do when you are bored of the game. I haven't played Star Fox in years, but as everyone keeps comparing the game to Star Fox, do you recall EVER being able to kill enemies through objects, or EVER being able to drop the controller and walk away, only to return to a completed level? Another minor complaint; the "chatter" is sparce, and rarely relates to anything going on on the screen. Companions, and the player character, throw out random exclaimations or statements, at seemingly random times. There is no chatter between your character and all of the "friendly" ships in the area. No suprise or alarm when you see big ships other than "we have to kill that thing?"... and then you are forced to fly right passed "that thing" and 30 seconds later the level is over. (No, you don't have to kill that thing, nor are you allowed to.) There is no sense of urgency or drama. Just a repetative orchestra track and the ocassional "yeah, Im good...". What happened to "Cinematic" and "Heroic" and "Epic" and all those buzz words that were used to justify WHY the game had to be a rail shooter. I have started playing left handed just to give myself a "challenge", but even that isn't proving any more difficult. The enemies are so slow, and die so quick, and you are spoonfed so many dumb enemies that the hardest part about the game is LOSING. So yeah, keep arguing whatever you want against any sort of alternate (better) space combat, but please stop trying to tell us that this product is "great" or even "fine as is". It is incomplete, sloppy, and painfully easy. Well said brother! I actually unsubscribed in protest of how bad space combat is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conyak Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 space combat is the boringest boring you mean space combat in this game yes your are right. if you mean in general you are wrong. you prefer rinse and repeat on the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conyak Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I think people just swallow anything that is given to them or said (not just regarding Bioware or video games, but overall) If Bioware had made a pac-man space combat for swtor, they would find a way to "justify" (brainwash people) it and everyone will say; oh the pac-man space combat is GREAT, its the only way it could have been done, it's just like the movies etc. The same thing if they made a card battle space combat. Just to make it clear, this is what some are saying no to: STO: X3: skip to 3:50 Freelancer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZq0W9L3h_4 Freespace 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouxxUFtqC7w&feature=related Haegemonia Nexus SWG Homeworld 2 Sins Of a Solar Empire (strategy) BUMP, thank you for this post before anyone says the current space game is good needs to watch these videos otherwise you are misinformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathEaterz Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Space Combat is unfun, dumb and repetitive. If that is what Bioware was shooting for, they nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabhal Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 BUMP, thank you for this post before anyone says the current space game is good needs to watch these videos otherwise you are misinformed. He left out Colony Wars which was perfect mission-based, sand-boxed (free-flight), space combat with strong story elements which would mesh wonderfully with Star Wars:TOR. Space combat doesn't have to be on rails to be dramatic and story-driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conyak Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 STO's space combat is far superior to TOR's. Their ground combat, however, resembles late 90's RPG/Action games (pretty ironic huh?), and is pretty pathetic when compared to TOR's ground combat. Maybe we should give TOR a year and a half or so after launch to develop and impliment a whole new game type, as STO (and SWG) did, then judge it. Development takes time. Amazing how few people understand this. So they had all the time in the world to copy and make star WOW and make 200,000 lines of voice dialogue on a $250 mil budget, but nobody in the space department? Or was the space team made up of 2 people? Dev takes time but it is obvious that space was not a priority for the Dev team or they chose not to allocate as much resources to it. I would of taken 100,000 lines of voice and one less planet to have a better space game then the rail road they call the space game now. Or at least tell us the Dev plans for space then I can sit and wait, but all we here is a re-vamp on space is coming? but what exactly we don't know. Also yes STO ground sucked, but look how fast they Dev'd STO and came out with the space game that is way better then STOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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