So Sith Lightening Bypasses all Armor?

[RealAeiouy]

I won't believe anyone until I see a youtube vid.

 

Very simple. Have a sorc cast that chain lightning on everyone in a WZ

 

See what the damage is.

 

If the damage is the same then the attacks are ignoring armor.

 

If the damage is 5% less on people with the inquisitor/counselor buff then it is doing elemental dmg.

 

That is not how you test.

[RealAeiouy]

Refrain from being stupid.

 

There is a reason I pointed out that particular experiment and not the one you did.

 

Yes, there is a difference between no armor and armor.

 

But there is no difference between low armor and high armor.

 

Conclusion? Your attacks bypasse armor somehow when they shouldn't. How about you help finding out why instead of calling everyone a liar.

 

Which would indicate diminishing returns or caps. If you tested it properly it would be easy to figure out. Your test data is worthless because you change too many variables. If you want to test armor you need to try and only change armor level. With stats that is not entirely possible but it is more accurate than changing characters and classes.

[Lazorous]

Lol, you really don't get it, do you?

 

Whatever, keep sprouting your Sorcerer/Sage BS, someone at Bioware will eventually look into armor values and find the problem.

 

Or maybe they will magically discover past a certain point you have innate armor penetration for no reason.

 

Whichever it is, we'll probably see a patch note about it soon enough.

 

Actually it's quite clear you don't get it. Anyone with basic scientific and/or mathematical knowledge can agree that you have no basis for a conclusion here.

 

Based on your comments, you don't know how to create a controlled test environment. Just telling people they don't get it, when they are offering you valid advice, only means that you're closed minded and refuse to accept knowledge where it is available, and you have no logical rebuttal. Shortened version : You're wrong.

 

Whether there is a glitch or not is a valid question, but that requires testing. You made the claims so the burden of proof is upon you, if no one else is noticing the same effect. If you refuse to do the necessary test, then at the very least, link and point out the "many other" posts that you say have such information and we can evaluate their data. If these other posts only have opinions and no actual data, then having many posts with no valid data still doesn't make for any conclusive info.

 

Until you understand how data is logically gathered and evaluated, your claims will be questioned.

[Torcer]

So basically we don't really know cause we don't have a combat log.

k.

 

Yes, we do know, but the confusion is understandable since BioWare’s damage system is pointlessly complicated. Armor Mitigates against Energy and Kinetic damage and since Lightning is Energy, Armor Mitigates against it. However, Shields only work against Melee and ranged attack types, so although Armor works against Lightning, Shields do not.

 

The key here is that Armor MITIGATES damage, as in (Gross Damage – %DR = Net Damage). What is likely happening is that the Sorc has really good PvP armor with high Crit/Surg stats, plus he is buffed up on Stims, so his gross damage is so great that it’s still doing massive net damage.

 

For some reason TOR was designed to allow you to stack up DPS, but it’s not as easy to stack up Armor and Defense. Perhaps it would add some strategy to add Plus Armor stims, so you’d need to choose between DPS or Armor… just a thought.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Torcer

[Slie]

The dots Sorc cast ignore all your armor and defence and if you are not looking for them specificly then it is quite easy to think the damage is from the lightening.

 

Armor is mitigating "force lightening " damage Tested

 

I really think what you perceive is just that dots are ticking and lightening is ticking, so you go down faster than a 2 dollar whore on shore leave.

[RealAeiouy]

All I see is a bunch of bs and no one with actual numbers from a controlled test. Do you really think testing it by attacking different people in a warzone who all have varying amounts of expertise that you don't know the values of is going to prove anything at all except that you failed high school science?

 

What is sad is armor mitigation is the easiest thing to test. People want to play theorycraft without being able to conduct the simplest of tests. If I thought this was an issue and cared I could come up with a reliable data set in a short time.

 

That not a single person claiming something is not working does not even have a clue as to how to do a simple test is ridiculous.

 

This is very easy to test. If someone here wants to try and prove a problem exists it is trivial so they need to do it. The burden of proof is on them. Just realize if they do it others will check their work so don't bother making up data.

 

Those claiming a problem exists need to do an actual legitimate test. If you still are not sure how to do that, ask.

[RealAeiouy]

Let state: FL is NOT INTENDED to bypass armor, it deals energy dmg and armor works against energy dmg.

 

I have 47% energy and kinetic dmg reduction from armor+talents +10% from expertise, so against FL (and TT) I have 57% dmg reduction, which is quite good. However, from Camp/BM Sorcerers I saw many times FL ticks like ~600-900 crit dmg. If these values ar after the reduction, then the original values should be ~1053-1578. Question, is it possible that FL crit ticks these amounts? I am not sure.

 

Other theory. Shielding works that crit hits cannot be shielded at all (the incoming melee/ranged attack can be a normal hit, a shielded hit or a crit, as far as I know). What if the attack table looks like against force attacks: normal energy/kinetic hit reduced by armor or crit energy/kinetic hits with no armor reduction. That somehow would be analogous wit the melee/ranged attacks hit/crit contra shield absorb. Or maybe jsut a stupid idea.

 

However, as it is sure that force and kinetic dmg should be reduced by armor, it is a fact that something is funky with FL (or is it a really strong ability if a TICK of it can crit 1500 before reduction).

 

 

 

Realize if the other person has expertise it offsets your expertise.

[Nales]

Can someone with a Sorc friend just put a youtube video showing FL damage before and after removing all of their armor?

[KorwinOfAmber]

9 pages in this topic? Seriously?!

[JefferyClark]

]Now, the problem is either armor is bugged or your tooltips are wrong.

 

Obviously the Sorcs are trying their hardest to cover up the fact that their skills are not working as intended......

 

I think it is a little of both of these. No class wants a nerf, but in this case, I think a serious oversight either by listing the tooltip as the wrong damage type, or the fact that armor mitigation is broken (mentioned in the JK/SW thread as "survivability") has happened and something WILL change about it.

 

I myself went and did the test with 100 hits each time with my friend who plays a Sorc. Non-crit damage (since crits DO ignore armor) range while in my armor were from 3800-4200 with an average of 4133 (rounded). Non-crit damage range while not in my armor were from 3800-4300 with an average of 4134 (rounded).

 

As you can see, the average shows that the Sorc's dps is around the same (which is kinda nice for them) but also shows that my armor did crap all except increase the number of times I could take the hit between disengaging and healing. Now, by the average, armor did a total 1 less damage on average. By using the 20% mitigation that I think we're supposed to be getting, it should've been around 3300 on average (800ish damage = 20% of that amount).

[Quinlynn]

Based on another thread in this forum, mitigation in general is an issue.

 

Also, based on the reponses here it is obvious that none of us really know how it is working either.

 

Players should not be able to stack crit stat so high that all armor / shield is bypassed.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Quinlynn

[Remulan]

Testing this would actually be quite easy if I wasn't at work.

 

1) Duel anyone who is biochem with the armor adrenal handy.

2) Shoot them with lightning, write down numbers

3) Have them pop the armor adrenal and repeat step 2

4) compare numbers

 

I fairly positive that the lightning does not have a variance in damage, in that it always deals the same amount across the ticks assuming static defensive stats on the target, since there is no damage range listed on the skill, so one test should be all that is needed.

[NightHawke]

Testing this would actually be quite easy if I wasn't at work.

 

1) Duel anyone who is biochem with the armor adrenal handy.

2) Shoot them with lightning, write down numbers

3) Have them pop the armor adrenal and repeat step 2

4) compare numbers

 

I fairly positive that the lightning does not have a variance in damage, in that it always deals the same amount across the ticks assuming static defensive stats on the target, since there is no damage range listed on the skill, so one test should be all that is needed.

 

Gotta be a video or it never happened. I am not saying that, but I am just sayin.

[Raque]

The dots Sorc cast ignore all your armor and defence and if you are not looking for them specificly then it is quite easy to think the damage is from the lightening.

 

Armor is mitigating "force lightening " damage Tested

 

I really think what you perceive is just that dots are ticking and lightening is ticking, so you go down faster than a 2 dollar whore on shore leave.

To be precise, Affliction bypasses armor (internal damage) while Crushing Darkness is mitigated by armor (kinetic damage).

 

But yes, I agree with you that people are not realizing what is actually killing them.

[Lazorous]

Players should not be able to stack crit stat so high that all armor / shield is bypassed.

 

I assume you mean Surge? Crit value doesn't change the dmg, it just changes chance to crit.

 

And while I get what you're trying to say, but technically surge values do not "bypass" armor, assuming that crit is coming from Energy/Kinetic type dmg. It's still mitigated, but the value is increased just as any dmg is increased by higher stats.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Lazorous

[Posixgod]

Fought a Sorc 1 v 1 in WZ and had shield up and lightening totally racked me as if I had no armor.

 

Others claim it bypasses armor as well.

 

Confirm?

 

And again, the people who complain about these sorts of things haven't bothered to learn anything about the individual classes much less how the game operates.

[Quinlynn]

And again, the people who complain about these sorts of things haven't bothered to learn anything about the individual classes much less how the game operates.

 

Not complaining, asking a question.

 

If you think it is complaining then that is your problem.

 

It is now obvious that players are able to stack crit to a point that it pushes through all armor and shields, something that should not be happening.

 

Thanks for caring.

[OsirisZoran]

yeah sorcs do a dmg that isnt even listed in the game thats how OP we are!!!!!

 

 

btw if my force lightning was not mitigated it would be critting 2k ticks easily and doing 10k in 1 force lightning.

[Orangerascal]

yeah sorcs do a dmg that isnt even listed in the game thats how OP we are!!!!!

 

 

btw if my force lightning was not mitigated it would be critting 2k ticks easily and doing 10k in 1 force lightning.

 

My force lighting is what caused our server to lag ... NERF!!!!

[Centaurius]

yeah sorcs do a dmg that isnt even listed in the game thats how OP we are!!!!!

 

 

btw if my force lightning was not mitigated it would be critting 2k ticks easily and doing 10k in 1 force lightning.

 

based off what? I call shennanigans! Just as the burden of proof falls on the people making the original claims, yours require just as much proof based on the sheer ridiculousness of your assumptions. I could just as easily claim my grav shot would crit for eleventy billion damage unmitigated and that my hammer shots would hit for a bazillion. See how fun that is!

Edited January 26, 2012 by Centaurius

[Raque]

Fought a Sorc 1 v 1 in WZ and had shield up and lightening totally racked me as if I had no armor.

 

Others claim it bypasses armor as well.

 

Confirm?

How do you KNOW it was lightning that "racked" you? It is the filler in my rotation as a sorcerer between my better DPS abilities and includes DoTs (one of which does bypass armor).

 

Are you sure it was 1v1? Good players hide their position so you might only see the lightning hitting you and not the Grav round to the back of the skull. Sadly as a Sorcer FL gives away my position often.

 

Your total argument is based on supposition.

[mutee]

It is my understanding that the lightning damage is considered Force damage and that is mitigated by pretty much nothing, other than shield abilities that guard against that type of damage.

 

This is why missile spam from Mercs bypasses armor and does around 2k damage on everyone and crits for almost 5k.

 

Facedesk.

[Redmarx]

Sage and Sorc lightning/pebbles ARE MITIGATED BY ARMOR

 

Tested and proven on Sithwarrior.com theorycraft forums.

 

So many total morons in this thread who spread total misinformation as if it was fact.

 

Again, to get through to the morons:

 

Sage and Sorc lightning/pebbles ARE MITIGATED BY ARMOR

[Kaladorei]

It seems, force and tech ARE MEANT to be mitigated however it also seems they are either not working correctly or somehow have turned into internal damages, as it is quite noticeable difference when being hit by lightning i have tested it with shield/absorb and whatnot and my shield procced 0 times in a 5 min test, def on the other hand was ahrder to test, so i ungeared my toon, tested force lightning and then some interal damage DoT.

 

The damage with or without gear was the same, i dont mean close either, i mean the same. it was clearly noticeable armour did in no may mitigate any damage from force lightning or the internal dot(i know interaL is not affect but we tested both to give a better view of how it worked).

 

So we came to the conclusion there may be a bug in terms of pvp armour mitigation and shielding.

 

I may be wrong here but it was a pretty conclusive test done with myself a vanguard and an operative, SI sorcx2 and a BH (yes we got some other faction to help test this.)

 

We really couldnt tell about the merc,s tracer missile, it was really random.

[Vicid]

I think it is a little of both of these. No class wants a nerf, but in this case, I think a serious oversight either by listing the tooltip as the wrong damage type, or the fact that armor mitigation is broken (mentioned in the JK/SW thread as "survivability") has happened and something WILL change about it.

 

I myself went and did the test with 100 hits each time with my friend who plays a Sorc. Non-crit damage (since crits DO ignore armor) range while in my armor were from 3800-4200 with an average of 4133 (rounded). Non-crit damage range while not in my armor were from 3800-4300 with an average of 4134 (rounded).

 

As you can see, the average shows that the Sorc's dps is around the same (which is kinda nice for them) but also shows that my armor did crap all except increase the number of times I could take the hit between disengaging and healing. Now, by the average, armor did a total 1 less damage on average. By using the 20% mitigation that I think we're supposed to be getting, it should've been around 3300 on average (800ish damage = 20% of that amount).

 

Proof is proofy.