Before jumping to conclusions on classes being OP and nerfing...

[Posixgod]

Please, please, before jumping to conclusions on classes being OP and nerfing individual class specific utility, we first need a few things addressed:

 

One being ability lag which hopefully is being fixed soon.

 

Secondly, a working combat log, numbers don't lie. Saying "This class does so much damage it's insane" is not a proper measurement, it's an assessment, and often a very bad one.

 

Thirdly, a rework of the Expertise system, I'm not for dropping the stat entirely, if you care at ALL for the dynamics of PVP, you shouldn't either.

 

Fourthly, changes to the RNG system, having to open 50+ bags for 1 piece of BIS gear is redonkulous(Yes I used that fictitious word).

 

Lastly some form of diminishing returns. I do agree that being stunned and knocked back repetitively becomes an annoyance for all.

 

The argument about, "Every WZ I join has 10 of this one particular class" means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, popular classes are popular, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Bioware has done a great job of class composition and balance thus far, anyone refuting otherwise should take into consideration the following key points:

 

Spec does matter, whether or not you find this relevant in my opinion really says a lot about your level of play style and skill. I say this because, there's value in knowing as much as humanly possible about HOW your class works, WHEN to use your cool-downs, when to interrupt, when to stun, etc. You really have to put some of the responsibility back at the individual player.

 

If you pick a gimped spec you can't possibly expect to be the best at your class.

 

If Bioware makes the decision to arbitrarily nerf classes based on these "X class is OP" threads, rest assured the nerf stick will come for your class as well. Applying nerfs to classes based on someones experience or lack of in WZ's is quite simply put, ignorant.

 

Everyone wants their class to feel like the best, they want to know that the class they invested time leveling and gearing can compete with the rest, the reason each player may feel differently on this factor is not solely the fault of the class dynamics itself but rather the players play-style as well.

 

If you are insistent on creating these waste of time nerf threads, please construct them using the following as a precursor to whatever you're arguing;

 

What class do you play,

What spec are you using,

What gearing decisions have you made, list specifics, stats, health, expertise level, player level, etc.

 

All of this information is relevant not only to Bioware but to us as well.

 

I'd like to hear from the community on this, I just think with the high concentration of non constructive "X class is OP, Nerf X class" threads, perhaps peoples issues would be heard if they took the above into consideration and argued their points differently from a different angle.

 

Please guys, for the sake of this game and for the sake of the future of this game which by the way has a lot of potential, can we stop with the discussion of nerfing and instead review the actual issues with the core functionality first?

 

Thanks for taking the time to read through this, I look forward to hearing back from you all soon.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Posixgod

[Drakks]

My favorite thing about these threads, in regards to Ops/Scoundresl specifically, is that people actually are forwarding the notion that Bioware didn't look at logs or data, didn't do any work, one of them just stumbled across a forum thread that complained about wild damage and they decided to patch in a fix that minute. Edited January 24, 2012 by Drakks

[Posixgod]

My favorite thing about these threads, in regards to Ops/Scoundresl specifically, is that people actually are forwarding the notion that Bioware didn't look at logs or data, didn't do any work, one of them just stumbled across a forum thread that complained about wild damage and they decided to patch in a fix that minute.

 

Drakks, I'm in no way suggesting that Bioware doesn't have the ability and or didn't research this as being an issue and coming to the conclusion that it needed to be changed, I'm more or less in specific, speaking to the community of players who do have influence on the changes that get made.

 

That's all I'm saying, please go through my entire post.

[Aghar]

retraced due to another poster posting the same thing Edited January 24, 2012 by Aghar

[Dreadspectre]

My favorite thing about these threads, in regards to Ops/Scoundresl specifically, is that people actually are forwarding the notion that Bioware didn't look at logs or data, didn't do any work, one of them just stumbled across a forum thread that complained about wild damage and they decided to patch in a fix that minute.

 

I also don't get the expertise hate. Would it matter if it was gone and the gears just had over inflated DPS/HP stats? The other person with more gear than you is still going to have an edge, does it matter what flavor it comes in? Expertise is a wash once you get it, the only problem is these damn Lotto bags that let people gear up too fast or not at all.

[Posixgod]

I also don't get the expertise hate. Would it matter if it was gone and the gears just had over inflated DPS/HP stats? The other person with more gear than you is still going to have an edge, does it matter what flavor it comes in? Expertise is a wash once you get it, the only problem is these damn Lotto bags that let people gear up too fast or not at all.

 

Agreed, and I feel this is the primary reason why the expertise stat has received so much hate thus far, not because it's a broken stat by any means.

 

Players feel it's unfair that some have had more success at obtaining the necessary expertise pvp based gear, I do agree this needs to be reworked but the problem is not with the stat itself.

[Joskara]

The devs does not read the forums and does not change anything based on forums posts.

[Drakks]

I also don't get the expertise hate. Would it matter if it was gone and the gears just had over inflated DPS/HP stats? The other person with more gear than you is still going to have an edge, does it matter what flavor it comes in? Expertise is a wash once you get it, the only problem is these damn Lotto bags that let people gear up too fast or not at all.

 

Expertise is the only stat in the game that directly cancels itself out -- if you have 500, and fight someone with 500. You effectively have none. It provides a damage bonus AND equal damage mitigation from players.

 

I personally think the stat is fine, they just need to get mitigation, defenses, and shielding playing with all damage types correctly.

[jizerai]

My favorite thing about these threads, in regards to Ops/Scoundresl specifically, is that people actually are forwarding the notion that Bioware didn't look at logs or data, didn't do any work, one of them just stumbled across a forum thread that complained about wild damage and they decided to patch in a fix that minute.

 

My thoughts exactly. I grant you +1 internetz, to be used in a webz of your choosing.*

 

* Only one internetz may be used at a time. May be not be combined with other internetz and/or world wide webs. May not be traded or sold. Is only valid for 1 patch note.

[ihateyouall]

It's not jumping to conclusions when you've played hundreds of warzones...

[Posixgod]

The devs does not read the forums and does not change anything based on forums posts.

 

You sir are incorrect.

[Posixgod]

It's not jumping to conclusions when you've played hundreds of warzones...

 

I don't see how this reply is even remotely helpful, can you please reply back with specifics?

[Vlaid]

I know I personally enjoy rolling up classes that I find weak, ineffective and underpowered. It's why I see nothing but sorc/sages in my warzones =)

 

The problem with class popularity is that it's neither "omg op" or "meaningless". It's somewhere in-between. You can't take class population alone as your only metric of a class being overpowered.

 

But simply put, it is *A* indicator that a class is overpowered. This is an MMO, as much as people claim to be in it to just have fun....at the end of the day people want to be powerful, and the natural inclination is to play whatever class is most effective at what you want to do. So you can't simply ignore the large numbers of sorc/sages.

[Sabbathius]

OP,

 

In general I agree.

 

However, with some classes it is OBVIOUS. I don't need a combat log to know that Sorcerers have by FAR the easiest resource management of ANY class in the game. By a HUGE margin. It NEEDS fixing. I don't think anyone anywhere is going to argue that the current 500-600 force pool they get is in any way fair.

 

Let me give you an example. Their heaviest ability (massive AoE) costs 100 Force. That's their heaviest ability. The BULK of their abilities are 30 Force, some as high as 45 Force. Now, what is 100 Force in a pool of 600? 1/6th, or 17%. And what is 30 Force in a pool of 600? 5%.

 

Now, take an Assassin, which is the second Inquisitor class. Their pool is 100, 110 if Deception (their +10 Force talent is fairly deep in the tree, while for Sorcerers it's lowest tier in Lightning). Same spells. Take Force Lightning, costs 30 Force, and assume both can spam it (Sins can't, but whatever, assume they can). For a Sin, you can do it 3-4 times, and you're out of Force. As a Sorc, you can do it 20+ times before you are out of Force. And Sin version does not do more damage than Sorc, in fact it's the exact opposite. How is that fair?!

 

So, in general, I agree with you. However, with some classes it is painfully obvious that they need some heavy-handed nerfing. Sorcerers and Arsenal Mercs are prime examples.

[Posixgod]

OP,

 

In general I agree.

 

However, with some classes it is OBVIOUS. I don't need a combat log to know that Sorcerers have by FAR the easiest resource management of ANY class in the game. By a HUGE margin. It NEEDS fixing. I don't think anyone anywhere is going to argue that the current 500-600 force pool they get is in any way fair.

 

Let me give you an example. Their heaviest ability (massive AoE) costs 100 Force. That's their heaviest ability. The BULK of their abilities are 30 Force, some as high as 45 Force. Now, what is 100 Force in a pool of 600? 1/6th, or 17%. And what is 30 Force in a pool of 600? 5%.

 

Now, take an Assassin, which is the second Inquisitor class. Their pool is 100, 110 if Deception (their +10 Force talent is fairly deep in the tree, while for Sorcerers it's lowest tier in Lightning). Same spells. Take Force Lightning, costs 30 Force, and assume both can spam it (Sins can't, but whatever, assume they can). For a Sin, you can do it 3-4 times, and you're out of Force. As a Sorc, you can do it 20+ times before you are out of Force. And Sin version does not do more damage than Sorc, in fact it's the exact opposite. How is that fair?!

 

So, in general, I agree with you. However, with some classes it is painfully obvious that they need some heavy-handed nerfing. Sorcerers and Arsenal Mercs are prime examples.

 

Sabbathius, thank you for this very well constructed post, this is exactly how I'd like to see others respond with what they feel their issues are with individual class dynamics.

[Seurot]

Drakks, I'm in no way suggesting that Bioware doesn't have the ability and or didn't research this as being an issue and coming to the conclusion that it needed to be changed, I'm more or less in specific, speaking to the community of players who do have influence on the changes that get made.

 

That's all I'm saying, please go through my entire post.

 

Gotta love how people don't think BW had logs and stats the whole time during development and through beta, and was ok with it before. and that they all of a sudden decided to look at it now.

[Zellata]

OP,

 

In general I agree.

 

However, with some classes it is OBVIOUS. I don't need a combat log to know that Sorcerers have by FAR the easiest resource management of ANY class in the game. By a HUGE margin. It NEEDS fixing. I don't think anyone anywhere is going to argue that the current 500-600 force pool they get is in any way fair.

 

Let me give you an example. Their heaviest ability (massive AoE) costs 100 Force. That's their heaviest ability. The BULK of their abilities are 30 Force, some as high as 45 Force. Now, what is 100 Force in a pool of 600? 1/6th, or 17%. And what is 30 Force in a pool of 600? 5%.

 

 

I think you're a bit off target here. Sorcs do have a large force pool, but they also have the slowest regeneration rate. There's a way to mitigate that by talenting Lightning Effusion, but that comes at the expense of dps.

 

Also, speaking of Force Storm, draining your force pool in 6 casts (some of which are going to be interrupted) is very inefficient - the spell doesn't do that much damage and can be easily avoided by just moving out of the AoE. This is why it's highly situational skill and you don't see people spam it very often.

[Posixgod]

Gotta love how people don't think BW had logs and stats the whole time during development and through beta, and was ok with it before. and that they all of a sudden decided to look at it now.

 

Yes, because that makes sense. If that was the case, the Ops nerf as it were would have been adjusted pre-release.

 

Guess you didn't consider that?

[Doki]

I think you're a bit off target here. Sorcs do have a large force pool, but they also have the slowest regeneration rate. There's a way to mitigate that by talenting Lightning Effusion, but that comes at the expense of dps.

 

Also, speaking of Force Storm, draining your force pool in 6 casts (some of which are going to be interrupted) is very inefficient - the spell doesn't do that much damage and can be easily avoided by just moving out of the AoE. This is why it's highly situational skill and you don't see people spam it very often.

 

FYI I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER seen a Sorc run out of force in a PvE Op or Flashpoint, nor ever known anyone to have force management issuse in PvP. EVER. EVER EVER.

 

So this argument is just dumb.

[Spootybeaver]

Good OP

[Bosseking]

I'm pretty sad operatives / scoundrels got nerfed to the ground. Yes, the burst had to be balanced but at the same time they also nerfed their sustained damage. What the hell? Why would anyone take operative / scoundrel over any other dps, especially ranged, in PVE?

[Motro]

The devs does not read the forums and does not change anything based on forums posts.

 

Wrong.

 

Example: Reasons given for Biochem nerf...

"We’ve seen significant chatter both in and out of game about how players not picking up the BioChem professions would be ‘stupid’ and ‘gimping themselves’. This indicates that a small number of competitive players have been denying access to high end content based on whether a player has the BioChem Crew Skill."

 

Notice that no direct observations were made. Nobody explicitly stated that they were being denied raid spots because they did not have biochem. Bioware simply made the assumption that they might be based on comments they had read and then immediately acted.

 

There has also been a statement regarding game updates where it was explicitly stated that they actively seek out player comments and feedback on where to make changes on a daily basis.

 

What is pissing off a good chunk of the community is how fast bioware rolls out these nerfs considering that, by bioware's own admission, most players are still leveling and in their mid 20's. Nobody who is rational would have problems with balance being adjusted according to actual reliable data being collected. However, people realize that two business days is likely not enough time to collect sufficient data on operatives (the least played class and therefore the smallest sample size) to determine that nering is needed in addition to the 1.1 game update changes. Most people are also able to spot the correlation between amount of forum whining about a particular class and the swiftness/severity of the nerf. That is no accident or coincidence.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Motro

[Qeuzolt]

BW nerfed Ops with out helping them be useful, so now there is no reason to bring an ops over anything else in PVP or PVE. If this happens with the other "OP" classes, BH-merc, Sorc then everyone will be rolling warrior/kinghts...

[Seurot]

Yes, because that makes sense. If that was the case, the Ops nerf as it were would have been adjusted pre-release.

 

Guess you didn't consider that?

 

I meant to quote the 2nd post, but my phone picked the 3rd post. so I was actually trying to agree with you and disagree with Drakks.

[Posixgod]

I meant to quote the 2nd post, but my phone picked the 3rd post. so I was actually trying to agree with you and disagree with Drakks.

 

Oh, well in that case, my fault.

 

Thank you for agreeing!