Is has potential, but too many features are missing

DarthSublimitas · February 14, 2012

Please BIOWARE read this thread and change the game.
You said that you would have heard all the requests of the player and tried to meet them.
Please consider them as a top priority. The first month will be all play, but I do not want this project falls.

"So naive is this one in the force..."

xXCoVeTeDXx · February 14, 2012

I always wonder if the people who create these games actually play MMOS.

This game is so archaic... all the things listed in this post should have been implemented!

Instead, we get a very static world with nothing new or unique.

I want this to succeed, please add these suggestions, as many as feasible!

Cisco-Kid · February 14, 2012

Let me start by saying I have only been playing for about a week and running missions to lvl up and all that is pretty easy. I like the game, but I can see how I will unsub once I hit 50 and get bored of PvP and Raiding. I like pvp and raiding is essential, but it is only a part of mmoRPG games.

I was really intrigued by this post, because I am a old swg (the game) fan. All the things that are listed in this post are a lot, not all, but a lot of the things that make a mmoRPG.

In a mmoRPG, I fully expect to log in and immerse myself in a different world. This means to live in a world with other people and do worldly things. These worldly things all revolve around, in this case Star Wars lore.

The OP went on to list a lot things that made SWG a worldly place. I agree that if you are just looking to raid and be "Sheep Herded" into pvp battles, than a mmoRPG "Emphasis on the RPG" probably isn't the Genre for you. I think you are looking for a mmoG. You want to take the RP out of the name and Game. you can have RP and PvP in the same game.

The Star Wars mmoRPG has ALWAYS been about socializing and being in "THE WORLD" with open pvp and a lot of free roaming exercises.

Some of the things that made being in "The World" time consuming for me between pvp, talking to friends and crafting were:

- Actually finding good resources and planting objects to pull those resources out of the ground. This would make money for me or make good crafted items for me and others. Man this could take some time between survey and paying rents.

- open PVP!! Flag myself and be a criminal to others on the other team ANYWHERE I WENT!!! There was no sheep herding into battle grounds. You want to crontrol a City, grab some friends and head to the nearest opposition's town or player owned town. Although, having a pvp battle Ground and Queues are a good augmentation.

- a Bounty system on Real in-game people. (I'm not sure if this is in TOR). Become a Criminal and have money on your head and enjoy more pvp. Of course this would mean that you would actually have to fight without your friends help like in BG's.

- Just being able to go wherever you wanted is big for me. running into invisible walls is a bummer when out in the open world.

I will close this wall'o'text by saying:

- I am really missing a lot of the things that I thought were going to be in this game.

- I do like the quest system, because I hate reading all the words and hearing the quest is nice.

- All in all, for a mmoRPG, so far, this game falls very short for me.

- I think a lot of people just want to take the RPG out of the mmorpg title.

SWG was the only game that provided a "Real World Feel" for me, and sadly, TOR does not. I hope it will someday. I really do.

StarXchaser · February 14, 2012

OP Quote inside SPOILER tag:

SWTOR is not a bad game, it’s nice to see a Star Wars environment again. I like my trooper, my big gun and my armor. I played a couple of MMO and I always have only one character and I’m more the RP-PvP type than PvE even tho I raided in that game that shall not be named. SWTOR is good for a while up until when you reach the end, at this point it becomes like a lot of other MMO and all you can do is essentially raid again or PvP again. Players that want to LIVE in the Star Wars universe won’t be able to do it, too many features are simply missing, sometimes they are very basic features expected in a AAA MMO like it was falsely advertised by the devs. I’ll try not to talk about bugs and to talk more about absent features and restrictions.

Dead world
Let’s start with the main problem about the game, the dead world. Best example is Coruscant. Remember the Coruscant scenes in the movies? Huge crowds of people, dense traffic, in short, a living world. Now go to Coruscant in the game, you’ll see a tiny zone linking the spaceport to the senate (nice coincidence by the way!) with barely a couple of NPC standing in place, frozen in time. That plaza is the only “living” area of Coruscant and the only place you’ll go back to (on that planet) after finishing the game, all other zones are full of enemies, completely linear and underground or in buildings and don’t represent at all what we expect of Coruscant. Zones are not connected and there is no feeling of unity. Some zones are obviously made for a video game since they would be impossible in reality by their poor design, it might not be as bad as The Citadel or Illium in Mass Effect but it’s still obvious.

You wanted to go to a place like Dex’s dinner? Sorry, there is no such open sky area nor any place like that. You wanted to stand at the 300th floor of a skyscraper and look and the scenery through the window? Not possible. You wanted to visit the planet through the catwalks high in the air? Not possible. The same problems are visible on Nar Shaddaa. One zone is above ground, everything else is away from the landscapes that make the planet notorious and there is little to no NPC life.

The main cities like Coruscant, Kaas City, Nar Shaddaa, Corellia, etc. need more life. Hundreds of NPC must be added and they have to walk around, have animations and do things like using a computer, moving to talk to other NPC, going to cantina, etc. Dozens of NPC vehicles must also fly by and fill up the sky. Zones like in the movies must be added, social zones with no enemies, like the bar district or the dinner in ep2, or the building in the books, apartments, shops, attractions, social places, etc. Stop putting everything and every important NPC in the same place, we are not in that much of a hurry. The fleet is currently the only important place to be at level 50, add reasons to go back to the planets.

The PvE enemies are almost always in packs and placed in such a way that it doesn’t make sense for a battle and they are frozen for eternity, not moving or doing anything and it just adds to the feeling of dead worlds. They also have to do things and move so it look like a real world.

What it is: Coruscant Spaceport | Coruscant Senate | Coruscant Streets

What is has to be: Coruscant crowd

Exploration
Exploration is currently really hard to do. You want to go explore that coast? Chances are good that you are going to enter an exhaustion zone and die, even if you are on land and unaffected by weather. The lands are filled with invisible walls and useless limitations. Most structures are unclimbable or simply inaccessible. As said in previous point, we need more non-fighting zones to go to.

Day/night cycle
As other caring people on the forum at that time, I was shocked that day a couple of years ago when they announced that every planet would be frozen in time, never to evolve, never to change. It’s mind boggling to see that in a 2012 MMO. A day/night cycle is essential for the mood and immersion of the game. You wanted to organize a RP event during night on a day planet? No chance. You wanted to watch the lights of Coruscant at night? Not possible. You wanted to finally see a day on Nar Shaddaa? Not possible. You wanted to watch the sunset between the hills of Alderaan? No.

You'll never see: Coruscant Night | Tatooine sunset | Tatooine at night

Pre-rebuttal:
“But the day/night cycle was crap in that other game!”
Just because it was crap, too dark, too light or ugly in another games does not mean that it must be the case for SWTOR too. I’ve seen that argument many times and yet it never made any sense.

“Planets don’t all have a 24 hours rotation in the Galaxy Far Far Away!”
So? The rotation just has to be based on the actual data of that planet.

“I don’t want to play during night all the time!”
Many planets are at perpetual night at this moment. Anyway, as said before, the rotation isn’t always 24 hours and it doesn’t have to be on a 1:1 ratio with real life either.

Dynamic weather
Some planets have special weather but in most case it’s just to limit (limitation being the key word in this game) the zones you can go to like the killer sandstorm on Tatooine if you try to go PvP in the enemy city. Weather needs to be more dynamic, make it rain on Coruscant, spawn a huge blizzard once in a while on Hoth, make the sky change, give life to the world.

Tatooine sandstorm

Environment interaction, social activites & RP
To live in a world, we must interact with the world. Elevator buttons are not enough, there isn’t much liberty in the environment. Cantinas are filled with chairs, why can’t we sit on them? We must be able to gather friends, go to a cantina, sit at a table start playing a game like Pazaak or Sabacc with the possibility to bet credits. I see some kind of Dejarik game in my ship, why can’t I use it?

Sabacc

Allow us to activate more buttons in our ship, like a viewport toggle, lights, training simulation, etc. Allow us to put waypoint on the map and establish a route for a player created race event. Allow us to climb obstacles like in other games so we could actually go to places that are obviously possible to go to for a trained warrior instead of being blocked like if we were on a wheelchair

Allow swimming! Not having that in a modern game is an insult. The reveal of Otoh Gunga in The Phantom Menace was a great moment and we can’t do similar things in the game.

Pre-rebuttal:
“I wear heavy armor, I can’t swim!”
It’s the Galaxy Far Far Away with technology thousands of years ahead of us, many solutions exist. Submersible armor, waterproof electronics, scuba gear or simply remove armor when swimming!

“Underwated content was crap in that other game!”
See answer for day/night cycle. Because other games failed in doing a good job doesn’t mean that it will fail here too. A lot of potential for underwater content exists.

Swimming

PvP
Some people might like boxed PvP and love to play ball with the enemy or destroy a ship in Alderaan for the hundredth time but many of us come from games with excellent world PvP with a lot of possibilities. One thing that the system of planets with a range of levels prevents is good world PvP. You wanted to raid the capital of the enemy faction? Not possible, capital world are restricted by faction. You Imperial scums wanted to occupy Anchorhead? Not possible, you’ll get killed by a sandstorm while trying to go there. You wanted to have epic battles on Alderaan? Sorry, due to the fact that planets have a level range, there is no reason for a 50 to go there and you’ll only piss lowbies off. You wanted to go the the Jedi Temple on Tython and kill Satele Shan? Not possible, that planet is also off limit, In fact, it will be impossible to ever do any PvP on Ord Mantell, Hutta, Korriban, Tython, Coruscant, Taris, Balmorra and it’s impossible for most of Nar Shaddaa. All iconic worlds on which you will never have the chance to fight the other faction. Solution would be to add more zones to all planets so lvl 50 players have a reason to leave their fleet and explore the world.

Space & vehicle
Like many people, I was very disappointed when they announced the tunnel space combat. The current system is not bad for what it’s worth, but it could be so much more. It should have been at least as good as the previous one, in SWG, with the liberty and possibilities, or even better, like in X-Wing Alliance. It was said the space combat will be improved soon and it’s very exciting. It needs to be multiplayer and free roam. The travel could also be improved so it doesn’t feel so disjointed. Allow us to go to empty space and float aimlessly, race in a field of asteroids or land on them and mine. Allow us to build structures and bases in space or in asteroids.

The vehicles are also very basic. As other said, the speed bonus is very small so it could be boosted. Companions could sit behind the player on the speeder when travelling instead of disappearing to oblivion. Vehicles could be parked and stay there while the player walks away or they could be called from the ship and have an animation of auto-piloting to the player from distance instead of appearing out of nowhere and disappearing every time in an unrealistic way. We should also be able to use them in more places like caves and big buildings.

Interface & graphics
Other people have talked a lot about the problems of the interface and it seems the devs finally understand and are going to give us some liberty. The maximum of 2 windows is ridiculous, we don’t have enough bars for all skills and items. The friend/guild lists need many functions like personal comments and a complete right click menu. The market must have options to filter better, by type of items and stats.

Chat bubbles needs to be in the game, it’s a basic feature for social interaction.

The real high resolution textures needs to be available at least for our own character, companion and groups and preferably for everyone in close proximity.

Texture problem

Character
The lack of races at release was disappointing. After SWG, one could expect at least the same races and preferably more, but we got at lot less and most of them are humans with a different color. I guess it’s too late for that, we already made our character and I will certainly not start over.

The weapon system didn’t receive any innovation either. A class will have a certain weapon proficiency and it will keep that for all the game. The rockets, grenades, laser shots, beams and electricity all come out of the same barrel.

The bounty hunter has a jetpack, that’s great, only he can’t use it at all to access restricted places or jump higher, the Force users can’t use their ability on the world either.

The cover system is years behind the current standards and requires the player to go to a specific location instead of allowing to take cover anywhere and behind anything and it is restricted to two classes.

Real cover system

The current item modification is a good step in the right direction but a complete appearance tab system is missing. We should be able to change the color, change logos, have clothes on top of armor and be able to have multiple gear setups for social, combat or events.

Guild
No guild ship, no guild HQ, nowhere private and special to go. They are going to add a guild bank, that’s good, but we also need to be able to wear a guild symbol like an emblem, logo, piece of equipment or maybe even a rank patch. Having a guild is really just a permanent group chat.

Endgame
Raid again or PvP again. Most MMO do that mistake. These things are dev-made and have an end, a limit. We must have ways to make our own content, RP tools, possibility to make events, housing, collections, achievements, these things can keep people busy for a long time and if made correctly they can never end. I don’t plan to stay in the game if it’s to log and wait between raids and PvP events. Quests and stories have and end, we must be able to create.

Housing
As said above, housing is a good way to keep people busy. If we could decorate our ship with furnitures, change the color or, like in SWG, drop every item of the game on the ground and move/rotate in anywhere in our ship to create a real personal space. Most objects in the ship are actually useless. Allow us to use the med center, go in the bed, put items in crates and wardrobes, allow people to sit in the council room and do a briefing for a future mission. Allow us to change the weapon racks so they actually display the guns we used and want to show. We could also buy a home on planets like Coruscant and Corellia and be in our apartment in a skyscraper high above the ground and watch the life on the planet and decorate it like said above.

Trophies | Player made council room

Pre-rebuttal:
“Housing isn’t heroic!”
You can’t be a hero all the time. Han Solo spent a lot of time in his ship, customizing it and changing everything. Luke and Mara had an apartment on Coruscant and I’m pretty sure they had good times there creating Ben. Han and Leia have a place on Coruscant too. Obi-Wan lived like a cave troll in his little house on Tatooine for years so is Yoda on Dagobah. Students at Luke’s academy all have a room. The examples are countless. We can’t be expected to live in this game by fighting all the time.

Crafting
The current discovery system is too random, we need more control. The resources could have stats and qualities, that would allow dedicated crafters to be famous across the galaxy and people would go look specifically for their items. I remember that weaponsmith in SWG that was known for the good materials he used in crafting guns. I made the trip to Naboo then went far in the wilds to find his shop and buy stuff from his vendor then I could see him in the backstore, crafting and working, that was great and I actually felt I was in a real world.

Conclusion
SWTOR has potential, but at this moment it is too far behind in many aspects. SWG was bad on many points but it had awesome ideas, the housing was great and the immersion was present. LotRO has a good appearance tab, Champions Online has awesome personalization possibilities and dynamic combat system so does Age of Conan, EVE online has good ideas and incredible liberty and World of Warcraft must have something too.

Don’t tell me to go back to X MMO, SWTOR is the only Star Wars MMO and that represents a lot in my life. Accept that it would gain a lot by having most of these sometimes very basic features and the game would only be better and last longer.

First off, thank you for the time and effort you have put into your post. It should go without saying that obviously, you are very passionate about this game, and want it to succeed.

I have to say I agree with you on most of your points, and disagree with you on a few others. The lack of a day/night cycle, lack of flavor NPCs on city worlds, weather, and the Space Combat are let downs, and I think the worst of that is the Space Combat in particular.

Honestly, I just don't think the Space Combat fits the profile for an MMO. Now, I don't think it's terrible, but it just doesn't fit into the game, imho. It really doesn't capture any real social aspect of the game, and there isn't anything "massively" or "multiplayer" about it. It would be cool as a one off game on a casual gaming site, but it does feel really tacked on.

As far as the other points I agree with you, OP, I do hope BW does implement some upgrades and changes to the social aspect of the game, and add things like chairs, chat bubbles (how did they miss that one ), and a few, but not too many, flavor NPCs.

But respectfully OP, I think your dead wrong about housing. As a long time player of SWG and other MMOs, honestly, I think it would not work in this game. In fact, I do not think it would work with ANY theme park or generation 2 MMORPG, excluding EQ2. The reason is, because the current run of MMORPGs just are not built for it. To make any form of player housing work, you need space. And ironically, as expansive as games like WoW, SWTOR, and other games in the current gen are, they have absolutely no room to place a sandbox type area required for all of the players on a server to build a house or town. Now, the usual rebuttal is "just instance it". Well, generally speaking, I like the idea, but there is a problem: If you instance or phase something, you separate it from the game world. And if you have a separate instance for content, players who want to access this area will not be in the the actual game world, leading to the perception that the actual game world is dead.

There are also other problems with player housing that people do not really mention when bringing up the idea. As I mentioned, I played SWG. And I played it through both "combat upgrades." One thing that player housing showed, if there isn't any form of maintenance or upkeek, you get sprawling abandoned cities, or in the case of my old home SWG server of Wanderhome, the Corellian ghost circle.

Don't get me wrong, it's a feature I would love to have, but I just don't think there is a developer that can do it successfully right now. And I really feel it's something that really shouldn't even be touched until a developer comes around committed to combining the sandbox element of MMOs with the the other three pillars of MMOs, whom is also committed to player housing from Day 1. But I digress.....

As for your idea about introducing FPS/TPS elements to the IA/Smuggler classes, I also think this is a terrible idea. The NGE of Galaxies was the first taste of what FPS elements in MMORPGs could be like. And it was absolutely, the worst idea in the history of MMOs. I can not begin to describe how terrible it was. No exaggerations, it was that bad. There is also the problem that the core game is just not built for it. Adding shooter elements would require a complete rewrite of SWTOR's DNA. And as SWG proved, a complete DNA rewrite doesn't earn you perfection, it earns you a Frankenstein. Twice.

Flying is also a problem. Much like Vanilla WoW, I don't think Launch SWTOR is designed for flight. The zones are big enough, but lack the vertical design for it. Adding flight in a SWTOR expansion would be cool, but then much like WoW, you probably would need a Cataclysm style galaxy revamp to make flight work in the base game.

But other then those three points, I think you've got a great thread going OP.

Dexterace · February 14, 2012

44 pages and I havent read them all so I apologize if I rehash someones comment.

This is not so much a knock on the game as it is on the Star Wars lore:

The game is what, 3000 yrs before the movies?

The technology is stagnant. The ships, weapons, people, armour, everything is the same as it will be 3k years in the future. I would have liked to see cruder stuff, different designs. Something. Its all the same. Vaders great idea of freezing someone in carbonite from Empire? Done. 3k years earlier. Guess people forgot about that.

I wish we could have STARTED some of the Star Wars lore with our quests.

Hoth? A thriving, lush world. Some catastrophe during the questline, ala Wrath of Kahn, moves its orbit. uh oh.

Alderann? How about a different name, and we help House Alderann gain control during the civil war. Organa? please.

Coruscant. Its barely been flushed out. They could have kept it a smaller, neutral community that would grow into the metropolis over millennia.

Biowares hands were probably tied by history and lucasarts, but I think a great opportunity to involve the characters in the Star Wars universe was missed.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Dexterace

Cyclonit · February 14, 2012

I really appreciate the work you did there OP. You actually cover most of the stuff I am missing in this game and I think you succeeded in making one of those things clear I miss the most: The atmosphere.

As you said the worlds in The Old Republic feel dead and there are no ways to interact with anything in this game. We can sit down on our ship and press some buttons now and then but if Bioware was to give us the ability of actually interacting with our surroundings in more than just one way (playing pazaak, ...) it would add a lot to this game. Additionally a day/night cycle and weather would be awesome. I'd love to see Coruscant at night in the game or the Alderaanian snowy mountain tops sparkle at sunrise or a gigantic snow storm hit an outpost on Hoth.

GMisty · February 14, 2012

Yes, Yes, and Yes to everything you're suggesting.

Although SWG eventually became a train wreck, it was filled with innovative mechanisms for player-world and player-player interaction - Customizable homes & guild halls. -Cantinas where players could dance or play an instrument as a profession and provide combat buffs. These are catalysts for player creativity. What I miss the most, though, are SWG's planets with wide open terrain. Oh, and leave your speeder unattended and it might be eaten by a Rancor or shot up by a bounty hunter on your trail.

Contrary to popular thinking, large, open terrain does not "spread the player population too thinly." Providing a static, do-nothing world will do that first.

As for crafting- There has never been a better crafting system before or since SWG.

This was all achieved 9 years ago. Why not now?

I think that BW put all of their eggs into one proverbial basket of quest dialogues and light/dark character path choices, releasing a game that feels unfinished. (At least it feels that way to me).

MrDeas · February 15, 2012

The general impression I got was "I don't understand MMO mechanics" from the OP. Yes all of these things would be nice to have. Yet most of them simply can't be demanded from an MMO, a single player game I would agree with you though. For example you said about weopons and the fact that classes can't use other weopons, this wasn't an oversight by the devs, but instead was deliberately done so that each class would have strengths and weaknesses. The same applies to the Cover ability, it is the advantage of the Slinger/Sniper to have deployable cover. You can't demand that it be given to other classes or this would disrupt the balance of the game by taking away one of the Slinger/Sniper advantages.

I must mention that you said you won't be re-rolling. As a RP player you will undoubtedly be interested in the class stories. So why not re-roll with a different class and discover their class stories? This would surely be something that interests you specifically as a RPer?

Although I do agree with some of the points you mention I feel you forget about the limitations of MMO's in regards to immersion. Remember that this is SWTOR, and not KOTOR 3.

xyloh · February 15, 2012

Guild
No guild ship, no guild HQ, nowhere private and special to go. They are going to add a guild bank, that’s good, but we also need to be able to wear a guild symbol like an emblem, logo, piece of equipment or maybe even a rank patch. Having a guild is really just a permanent group chat.

This suggestion alone is the only reason I am bumping this post. I do not believe in player housing as it clutters planets etc...

BUT A GUILD SHIP!!!! YES PLEASE!!!!

I would imagine it being accessible through each respective fleet and have it be phased like the story area's.

Perhaps the only way to get into the ship being by purchasing a guild ship pass and inputting X amount of credits into the guild bank to get something similar to a VIP wristband?? (so that those who are able to enter would have contributed to the guild funds, assuming the guild bank holds credits).

A customizable floating guild ship would be ZOMG THIS IS SO AMAZING!!!

It would be awesome to be a place to gather and also possibly to do a space mission operation as a guild (space raid??)

This one suggestion is giving me so many ideas... and so much hope for a new element to the game... again... YES PLEASE!!! hehe

ps. Guild colors would be nice too... idk how it would be implemented because I can't see tabards being a fad in swtor but it would be nice...

Edited February 15, 2012 by xyloh

lordskeletoncz · February 15, 2012

I totally agree with op .. with one add .. really why we are limited by walls or invisible things that kill u ( tatooine , hoth u cross the line and something kill u .. *** ?) when we are exploring the planet at mmo ...btw the planet size here in swtor really do not look like a planet but just a part of it like 2/60 ( is the 58 / 60 of the planet just a desert or some kind of private property ?) for example corelia is not just coronet and why the hell is coronet and others like nar shaada divided into smaller parts i mean u just cant get there by foot or what ? because every capital city has a large canyons dividing it ? just give us something similar to swg planets which wasnt corridor designed ... So we can feel like exploring a planet ...

Dhiggarey · February 15, 2012

I dont know about you guys but a penthouse on coruscant wud be friggin awesome! Edited February 15, 2012 by Dhiggarey

Newsinz · February 15, 2012

I don't think any of this is Trivial. This is part of gamer immersion. I agree with the OP. Is this all game breaking? No. Is this something that would hold player base? Yes.

Dreossk · February 15, 2012

The general impression I got was "I don't understand MMO mechanics" from the OP. Yes all of these things would be nice to have. Yet most of them simply can't be demanded from an MMO, a single player game I would agree with you though. For example you said about weopons and the fact that classes can't use other weopons, this wasn't an oversight by the devs, but instead was deliberately done so that each class would have strengths and weaknesses. The same applies to the Cover ability, it is the advantage of the Slinger/Sniper to have deployable cover. You can't demand that it be given to other classes or this would disrupt the balance of the game by taking away one of the Slinger/Sniper advantages.

Having multiple weapons and a real cover system is something you can do in other MMOs.

I must mention that you said you won't be re-rolling. As a RP player you will undoubtedly be interested in the class stories. So why not re-roll with a different class and discover their class stories? This would surely be something that interests you specifically as a RPer?

No, I couldn't stand starting over and doing the same quests all over again.

Although I do agree with some of the points you mention I feel you forget about the limitations of MMO's in regards to immersion. Remember that this is SWTOR, and not KOTOR 3.

What limitations?

seekerofpower · February 15, 2012

SWTOR is not a bad game, it’s nice to see a Star Wars environment again.

Immediately shows that you played SWG... which usually means you went into SWTOR looking for a sandbox MMO, which the devs have stated from the beginning that it was not meant to be.

SWTOR is good for a while up until when you reach the end, at this point it becomes like a lot of other MMO and all you can do is essentially raid again or PvP again.

I disagree with this statement as it was stated by the devs that this is a STORY-based MMO and that each class is designed to give a very different experience. If you haven't played through all the class stories, then you haven't "reached the end" of the game.

I know many people will argue with me on this, but the devs have stated from the beginning that the game was designed with the idea in mind that people would play multiple classes and level multiple characters.

Players that want to LIVE in the Star Wars universe won’t be able to do it, too many features are simply missing, sometimes they are very basic features expected in a AAA MMO like it was falsely advertised by the devs.

The devs have delivered exactly what they promised. Nothing was falsely advertised by the devs. Just because it doesn’t have things that you want in it, doesn’t mean they falsely advertised anything.

Dead world
You wanted to go to a place like Dex’s dinner? Sorry, there is no such open sky area nor any place like that. You wanted to stand at the 300th floor of a skyscraper and look and the scenery through the window? Not possible. You wanted to visit the planet through the catwalks high in the air? Not possible. The same problems are visible on Nar Shaddaa. One zone is above ground, everything else is away from the landscapes that make the planet notorious and there is little to no NPC life.

So what you want, is for the game to render an ENTIRE CITY PLANET every time you land on Nar Shaddaa or Coruscant? Are you kidding me? This goes back to you wanting this game to be a sandbox, when it is not.

You want the ability to go in EVERY building on the planet and fully explore it? Seriously? This immediately shows that you have unrealistic ideas about MMOs in general. Hell, there aren’t any single player games that are as in-depth and detailed as you want this MMO (that is designed to allow anyone to play with even low end systems) to be.

This absurd level of detail is not currently possible for any game, much less an MMO. You need to be more realistic.

The main cities like Coruscant, Kaas City, Nar Shaddaa, Corellia, etc. need more life. Hundreds of NPC must be added and they have to walk around, have animations and do things like using a computer, moving to talk to other NPC, going to cantina, etc. Dozens of NPC vehicles must also fly by and fill up the sky. Zones like in the movies must be added, social zones with no enemies, like the bar district or the dinner in ep2, or the building in the books, apartments, shops, attractions, social places, etc. Stop putting everything and every important NPC in the same place, we are not in that much of a hurry. The fleet is currently the only important place to be at level 50, add reasons to go back to the planets.

There are tons of people in cantinas, casinos, cities… true most of them are stationary. I actually agree with the idea that they could have non-quest essential NPCs on walking paths, instead of being stationary.

I don’t think they should add more NPCs, as many people already have FPS issues in metropolitan areas.

There is plenty of traffic in the city worlds. Adding traffic in city hubs just increases clutter, slow down rendering and drastically decrease frame rates. Not needed.

The PvE enemies are almost always in packs and placed in such a way that it doesn’t make sense for a battle and they are frozen for eternity, not moving or doing anything and it just adds to the feeling of dead worlds. They also have to do things and move so it look like a real world.

I like the idea of enemies on patrol routes, but I don’t want to have to spend hours trying to find a certain type of enemy to kill for a quest, because they are on a huge rotation. I remember trying to find Borgoth the Bloodletter in the Ghostlands in WoW and it taking 30-45 minutes sometimes because of his patrol.

Small patrols to maintain the semblance of life is ok, but too much can get annoying.

Exploration
Exploration is currently really hard to do. You want to go explore that coast? Chances are good that you are going to enter an exhaustion zone and die, even if you are on land and unaffected by weather. The lands are filled with invisible walls and useless limitations. Most structures are unclimbable or simply inaccessible. As said in previous point, we need more non-fighting zones to go to.

There is plenty to explore. You can even gain a level through exploration experience if you are diligent with it.

Exhaustion zones are necessary as, like I have stated before, this is not a sandbox and the zones are limited. These limitations are not useless. There are in place because this is not a sandbox, you are not meant to go outside the zoned map.

What structures are you trying to climb and why? There are quite a few structures that are can be climbed. In fact, there are structures that require climbing in order to obtain all the datacrons.

Some of the datacrons and lore objects require some unique thinking to get to. The whole point in these objects is to get people to explore.

Day/night cycle
As other caring people on the forum at that time, I was shocked that day a couple of years ago when they announced that every planet would be frozen in time, never to evolve, never to change. It’s mind boggling to see that in a 2012 MMO. A day/night cycle is essential for the mood and immersion of the game. You wanted to organize a RP event during night on a day planet? No chance. You wanted to watch the lights of Coruscant at night? Not possible. You wanted to finally see a day on Nar Shaddaa? Not possible. You wanted to watch the sunset between the hills of Alderaan? No.

I hate the idea of a day/night cycle. If I have some quests to turn in, I want to be able to turn them in. I don’t want to have to wait for the quest giver to wake up.

Usually when I say these, someone says, “Just go in his house and wake him up.” Seriously? You are trying to make things more realistic and you think walking into a random person’s house while they are asleep and waking them up to turn in a quest is realistic?

If that is the case, I want random quest givers to have home defense weapons and they blow you away with a scattergun because they think you are a robber. That is realism.

Pre-rebuttal:
“But the day/night cycle was crap in that other game!”
Just because it was crap, too dark, too light or ugly in another games does not mean that it must be the case for SWTOR too. I’ve seen that argument many times and yet it never made any sense.

The day/night cycle in other games are crap due to it being difficult to make nighttime and still allow people to see what they are doing. Imagine being in the middle of the Dune Sea at night. No city lights in the vicinity. It would be pitch black. If they made the game where in was light enough to see at nighttime, it wouldn’t be realistic and would thus defeat the whole purpose of the day/night cycle (which is to increase realism).

“Planets don’t all have a 24 hours rotation in the Galaxy Far Far Away!”
So? The rotation just has to be based on the actual data of that planet.

Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to program each planet’s day/night cycles separately? Some planets have multiple suns, so each one would have to be programmed separately.

“I don’t want to play during night all the time!”
Many planets are at perpetual night at this moment. Anyway, as said before, the rotation isn’t always 24 hours and it doesn’t have to be on a 1:1 ratio with real life either.

Wait… you want the game to be more realistic, but don’t want the day/night cycles to be on a realist rotation? Contradiction abounds in this statement.

Dynamic weather
Some planets have special weather but in most case it’s just to limit (limitation being the key word in this game) the zones you can go to like the killer sandstorm on Tatooine if you try to go PvP in the enemy city. Weather needs to be more dynamic, make it rain on Coruscant, spawn a huge blizzard once in a while on Hoth, make the sky change, give life to the world.

Dynamic weather eats up system resources. Once again, this game is designed to be playable even on low end rigs.

Environment interaction, social activites & RP
To live in a world, we must interact with the world. Elevator buttons are not enough, there isn’t much liberty in the environment. Cantinas are filled with chairs, why can’t we sit on them? We must be able to gather friends, go to a cantina, sit at a table start playing a game like Pazaak or Sabacc with the possibility to bet credits. I see some kind of Dejarik game in my ship, why can’t I use it?

I don’t understand while people play a game so they can go to a cantina and sit in a chair. It makes no sense. If you and your friends want to get together and sit in chairs, there are plenty of them on your spaceships. Make a group, all get on one persons space ship and sit until your heart is content.

Online gambling has too many laws tied to it to make an in-game casino realistic. The games themselves wouldn’t be an issue, but if they allowed betting, then it becomes an issue. People seem to forget this. Also, if the game included gambling, they would at least be required to put an M rating on it, and there has never been an M rated Star Wars game.

Allow us to activate more buttons in our ship, like a viewport toggle, lights, training simulation, etc.

I don’t understand why you need a viewport toggle. What will you be viewing? You don’t really fly it around space, and when you are flying it (Space Missions) you can’t really take time out to use a viewport toggle.

You want to be able to turn off the lights on your ship? I don’t understand the reasoning behind this, except to increase the risk of death by stairs.

I guess training simulations would be alright. I don’t have any issue with that.

Allow us to put waypoint on the map and establish a route for a player created race event.

Why don’t you just say, “Start at the Upper Industrial Sector Taxi. Whoever can make it to the Elevator in the Mercenary Training Facility and back first wins.” No waypoints needed. I don’t particularly have an issue with them adding waypoints, but it seems that you could have race events just as easy without them.

Allow us to climb obstacles like in other games so we could actually go to places that are obviously possible to go to for a trained warrior instead of being blocked like if we were on a wheelchair

This was already discussed. There are quite a few things you can climb on it you look for them.

Allow swimming! Not having that in a modern game is an insult. The reveal of Otoh Gunga in The Phantom Menace was a great moment and we can’t do similar things in the game.

This, once again, goes back to your idea that this is a sandbox game. As it is currently, there is no content that requires swimming. The devs have stated that they are considering adding a water planet and, when they do, they will add swimming. There is no point in it right now.

Also, you mention the reveal of Otoh Gunga like any game has had something similar. Are you saying that SWG had underwater cities that you access by jumping in a lake and swimming down to them? I didn’t think so. No MMO does. Once again you are being ridiculous.

PvP
You wanted to raid the capital of the enemy faction? Not possible, capital world are restricted by faction.

This was done for good reason. Starting worlds and capital worlds are off-limits to prevent people from griefing low-level players.

Also, even story wise, it would make no sense for someone from the opposite faction to land on these planets. First off, these planets are specifically called out in the Treaty of Coruscant and any action against them would be in direct violation and restart open war.

Second, these planets are the most protected in the galaxy.

For one thing, the Republic doesn’t even know where Dromund Kaas is. Another thing, how would you justify getting your fighter through a blockade of destroyer and dreadnaught class ships? Not to mention the anti-air batteries on the planet’s surface.

The Empire fought hard to take Korriban, I seriously doubt they wouldn’t station a fleet there in order to maintain it.

Coruscant is the most heavily protected planet in the Republic, particularly after the Imperial invasion during the Deceived trailer.

The Empire doesn’t know where Tython is due to it being a lost planet that was only recently rediscovered by the Jedi Order.

I think I have made my point on this.

Solution would be to add more zones to all planets so lvl 50 players have a reason to leave their fleet and explore the world.

I agree that there should be more zones to land in on each planet. I’m sure they will add this in the future, as this is an easy way to expand story content.

Space & vehicle
Like many people, I was very disappointed when they announced the tunnel space combat. The current system is not bad for what it’s worth, but it could be so much more. It should have been at least as good as the previous one, in SWG, with the liberty and possibilities, or even better, like in X-Wing Alliance. It was said the space combat will be improved soon and it’s very exciting. It needs to be multiplayer and free roam. The travel could also be improved so it doesn’t feel so disjointed. Allow us to go to empty space and float aimlessly, race in a field of asteroids or land on them and mine. Allow us to build structures and bases in space or in asteroids.

This is not a sandbox. This answer even extends into space. They are not going to make infinite space to explore and if it had invisible barriers, people would complain about that.

So, basically you want them to make asteroids that are zoned but all that is there is mining nodes?

Once again, why do you play a game if you just want to float aimlessly?

The vehicles are also very basic. As other said, the speed bonus is very small so it could be boosted.

110% is a pretty good speed boost. There is no need to increase it.

Companions could sit behind the player on the speeder when travelling instead of disappearing to oblivion.

What about Khem Val, T7 and M1-4X. They will not fit on speeders. Also, some of the speeders (the 90% speed ones) aren’t really designed to have more than 1 passenger.

Vehicles could be parked and stay there while the player walks away or they could be called from the ship and have an animation of auto-piloting to the player from distance instead of appearing out of nowhere and disappearing every time in an unrealistic way.

Your first idea would cause more unnecessary clutter and your second idea would take too freaking long.

What if you were in Kaas city and wanted your speeder. Do you know how far it is from the spaceport to the city? That would take forever. You could walk where you were going by the time the speeder arrived.

We should also be able to use them in more places like caves and big buildings.

I agree, they could up the locations where they are available a little bit.

Interface & graphics
The maximum of 2 windows is ridiculous, we don’t have enough bars for all skills and items.

I think your ideas are a little hard to understand here. I assume by 2 windows you mean the fact that you can only have 2 of your interface windows open at once (i.e. crew skill window and inventory). You then (in the same sentence, which is a bit confusing) mention that you don’t have enough bars for all your skills and items.

I haven’t had this issue on any of my characters (I have 1 of each class) and I not only have all my skills mapped, but also my CE items, 2 relics, medpacks and stims. I’m not sure what all you are trying to map, but maybe you don’t need all of it at once.

The friend/guild lists need many functions like personal comments and a complete right click menu.

These things would be nice, but are not NEEDED.

The market must have options to filter better, by type of items and stats.

Agreed. The GTN needs quite a bit of work.

Chat bubbles needs to be in the game, it’s a basic feature for social interaction.

You can customize chat windows to only show user chat and it would accomplish the same thing.

Truthfully, I think chat bubbles clutter up my view. I can’t stand them and I hope they never make it in the game.

The real high resolution textures needs to be available at least for our own character, companion and groups and preferably for everyone in close proximity.

This is a known issue and is being worked. The devs admit to throttling textures and are trying to correct the issue.

Character
The lack of races at release was disappointing. After SWG, one could expect at least the same races and preferably more, but we got at lot less and most of them are humans with a different color. I guess it’s too late for that, we already made our character and I will certainly not start over.

I think there were plenty of races at start. The devs have stated they only chose humanoid races that could speak basic due to armor types and the amount of dialog that is needed for each class that would have to be recorded in alien language. Also, imagine going through the whole game, and every time your character talked, it was in Shyriwook. Jesus, that would be horrible.

They also made the comment about its effects on romance options.

It has also been stated that it was done due to the fact that in the Star Wars series, more human looking races are always the main characters, with the less humanoid races as companions.

The weapon system didn’t receive any innovation either. A class will have a certain weapon proficiency and it will keep that for all the game. The rockets, grenades, laser shots, beams and electricity all come out of the same barrel.

This isn’t really a big deal. It was done to give each character iconic weapons they can call their own. This also helps in group settings. You know who needs what, because each person has their own unique weapon type.

The bounty hunter has a jetpack, that’s great, only he can’t use it at all to access restricted places or jump higher, the Force users can’t use their ability on the world either.

I don’t think any class should have the ability to fly. Talk about OP. It is given it’s fair due in his arsenal.

Once again giving the Force users the ability to jump up to areas without the required player to jump to makes them a bit OP.

Imagine raid with melee bosses. All these characters would need to do is jump or fly to an area the enemy couldn’t reach and use ranged attacks to finish them off.

The cover system is years behind the current standards and requires the player to go to a specific location instead of allowing to take cover anywhere and behind anything and it is restricted to two classes.

You are wrong. Cover can be taken anywhere. You don’t always get the defense bonus like you do if you use the cover intended items, but you can kneel down anywhere you want and use your cover specific abilities.

It is restricted to those 2 classes because those classes are built around it and it is one of the things that make those classes viable. If all classes had it, it would make IA and Smuggs extremely underpowered and those classes would need to be totally reworked.

As mentioned by someone else, this is an MMO, not a FPS or TPS. Name 1 MMO that has a cover system like Splinter Cell. You can’t, because it doesn’t exist. The cover system is innovative, because it is a first for the genre.

The current item modification is a good step in the right direction but a complete appearance tab system is missing. We should be able to change the color, change logos, have clothes on top of armor and be able to have multiple gear setups for social, combat or events.

Once again, you are confusing what would be nice to have with what the game NEEDS. You say this list is things the game NEEDS (can’t survive without). This is definitely not on that list.

Guild
No guild ship, no guild HQ, nowhere private and special to go.

They have stated many times that guild ships are on the list of things they intend to add. They have been talking about it since before release and still intend to do it.

The reason they held off on it, was because it will cause areas like the Fleets to become ghost towns.

They are going to add a guild bank, that’s good, but we also need to be able to wear a guild symbol like an emblem, logo, piece of equipment or maybe even a rank patch.

I do like guild tabards, but once again, these things are not NEEDED.

Having a guild is really just a permanent group chat.

Having a guild is knowing you will have people to run content with that are at least not going to screw you on loot, will be civil, fun to play with and either competent players or newer players that are willing to take advice. That in itself is enough reason to be in a guild to me.

My guild also shares resources and crafts items for other members free of charge.

Endgame
Raid again or PvP again. Most MMO do that mistake. These things are dev-made and have an end, a limit. We must have ways to make our own content, RP tools, possibility to make events, housing, collections, achievements, these things can keep people busy for a long time and if made correctly they can never end. I don’t plan to stay in the game if it’s to log and wait between raids and PvP events. Quests and stories have and end, we must be able to create.

There are datacrons (collection), lore objects (collection), a bestiary (collection), world bosses (achievements), etc. Houses are a terrible idea and cause clutter and end up abandoned. This is not a sandbox with infinite space for people to set up houses and towns.

If you can’t find other things to do, you aren’t trying hard enough. Explore the maps. You can’t tell me you have explored 100% of all the areas in the game.

Housing
As said above, housing is a good way to keep people busy. If we could decorate our ship with furnitures, change the color or, like in SWG, drop every item of the game on the ground and move/rotate in anywhere in our ship to create a real personal space. Most objects in the ship are actually useless. Allow us to use the med center, go in the bed, put items in crates and wardrobes, allow people to sit in the council room and do a briefing for a future mission. Allow us to change the weapon racks so they actually display the guns we used and want to show.

The ability to customize ships is on the wall of crazy and the devs have stated they would like to put this in. I would be ok with this. It wouldn’t affect me and it would keep the RPers happy.

We could also buy a home on planets like Coruscant and Corellia and be in our apartment in a skyscraper high above the ground and watch the life on the planet and decorate it like said above.

No to actual player housing. Your ship is your house.

Crafting
The current discovery system is too random, we need more control. The resources could have stats and qualities, that would allow dedicated crafters to be famous across the galaxy and people would go look specifically for their items. I remember that weaponsmith in SWG that was known for the good materials he used in crafting guns. I made the trip to Naboo then went far in the wilds to find his shop and buy stuff from his vendor then I could see him in the backstore, crafting and working, that was great and I actually felt I was in a real world.

This is not a sandbox. The crafting works fine. The RE system works fine. I get blues and purples quite often sometimes. The resources do have qualities. That is what determines whether you can craft greens, blues or purples. If you mean have each piece of each material be different, the I say absolutely not. Space for crafting materials is limited as is.

Conclusion
SWTOR has potential, but at this moment it is too far behind in many aspects.

I disagree. I have played WoW, EVE, SWG, AoC, DAoC, EQ, UO, Perfect World, LotRO, Aion, Vindictus, City of Heroes, Fallen Earth and a few others (those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head), and I think SWTOR is by far the best and intend to play it for a long time.

SWG was bad on many points but it had awesome ideas, the housing was great and the immersion was present.

SWG was a terrible game. The planets were too big, the crafting was tedious, 90% of the classes were useless, the housing caused clutter and world ended up being covered with dead player cities that no one used.

LotRO has a good appearance tab

Agreed. So, you can pick out the 1 good thing about LotRO and make it sound like this makes it better than SWTOR? Good for you.

, Champions Online has awesome personalization possibilities and dynamic combat system so does Age of Conan,

I didn’t play Champions, but AoC was a horribly designed game. Once again, you pick the 1 good thing and make it out to be better than SWTOR.

EVE online has good ideas and incredible liberty

I played EVE for a long time, but quit when I realized I had 2 full time jobs. The military and EVE. It was too much.

Don’t tell me to go back to X MMO, SWTOR is the only Star Wars MMO and that represents a lot in my life. Accept that it would gain a lot by having most of these sometimes very basic features and the game would only be better and last longer.

What you want is an MMO that takes every good thing from every other game and combines to make the Voltron of MMOs. You just keep waiting, it isn’t going to happen.

You sound like you would rather play a sandbox, so I don’t understand why you don’t go back to SWG (SWTOR is not the only Star Wars MMO, SWGEmu is up and running). I’m not being mean, but most of your suggestions are things that are common to sandbox style MMOs.

You tell us to accept that your ideas will make the game better, but I think you should accept that your ideas don’t fit in a themepark MMO. They are not very basic features for a themepark.

It is your opinion that they will make the game better. Many of us disagree.

Edited February 15, 2012 by seekerofpower

Dranzen · February 15, 2012

Exploration
Exploration is currently really hard to do. You want to go explore that coast? Chances are good that you are going to enter an exhaustion zone and die, even if you are on land and unaffected by weather. The lands are filled with invisible walls and useless limitations. Most structures are unclimbable or simply inaccessible. As said in previous point, we need more non-fighting zones to go to.

This is my biggest gripe regarding the overall environment. Though the maps are large, the environment seems very limiting. In Ord Mantell, there are so many mountains just beyond the water, and yet I can't get there to explore. Why make some of these restrictions?

Environment interaction, social activites & RP
To live in a world, we must interact with the world. Elevator buttons are not enough, there isn’t much liberty in the environment. Cantinas are filled with chairs, why can’t we sit on them? We must be able to gather friends, go to a cantina, sit at a table start playing a game like Pazaak or Sabacc with the possibility to bet credits. I see some kind of Dejarik game in my ship, why can’t I use it?

The bounty hunter has a jetpack, that’s great, only he can’t use it at all to access restricted places or jump higher, the Force users can’t use their ability on the world either.

I can't agree more.

It's basically a list of "nice but trivial."

But that's what draws people into the world, the little things that seem interesting and awe inspiring. It creates RP opportunities.

There's just never that one moment in this game - even after attaining all of the datacrons - I was intrigued by something and was able to go after it. But with all the exhaustion areas, the maps start to feel confining.

Easter Eggs

Consider adding even more Easter Eggs into the game. The Magenta Crystal was really fun the first few times.

Epic quest lines at level 50.

With how easy the end game PVE is in the game, it would be nice to have some longer quest chains that drew players back to old worlds and explored even more of the lore.

Reconsider the size of the worlds and the amount of planets

Yes, we have numerous planets, but having more planets just severs the community even more. Maybe add new areas to the other planets with different levels similar to Nar Shaddaa.

Space Exploration

Make it happen in the game. So much of Star Wars is in space, yet all our space interaction is limited to a shooter on rails.

Ilum

Please reconsider Ilum and what it offers. Ilum is massive with nothing in between areas. The controlling faction - usually the Empire - just sits in the center and harvest the objects for the daily.

Ilum has no bearing on the universe. Controlling Ilum doesn't matter. Without consequence, there's no reason to do it other than for the dailies.

Overall

The game has promise, but some of the flavor elements were never put into the game to add even more to the environment.

islander · February 15, 2012

I love how all of these people 3 months ago would die to play KOTOR 3 with online features...yet here they are today QQing because it's exactly what they got.

ebunts · February 15, 2012

I agree with the OP and want to thank him for writing a well thought out opinion.

This game can benefit from having both game styles. It would in fact allow for so much more by bringing in some sandbox features.

anindya · February 16, 2012

Wholeheartedly agree with OP and good job in listing down the suggestions. Regarding "it has potential" part, I am getting more and more doubtful. Some of the things you suggested require a complete design overall and the poor engine probably cant handle many of the things. I will still come back after March major patch to see where the game stands.

Meko · February 16, 2012

A large portion of the fan base that has been watching TOR since it was first announced are SW-Galaxies players, they came here because Galaxies was ruined by S---- ack can't even say the name, with expectations that Bioware would take a lot of the good things from Galaxies and spruce it all up and add Bioware's famous story telling to the mix.

This is really expectation verses reality, Bioware looked at Galaxies and saw a failing MMO and didn't want to emulate it or take anything from it cause it was obviously dying, but it didn't die because it was a bad game, it died because S--- aaaccck I need a shower now, rolled it in bantha poodoo and put it on our door step, as much as the Galaxies fan's loved their game it was made unplayable, they loved it so much the fans themselves have gone further then any other MMO's fanbase and tried to keep emulations of it alive on free to play, private owned servers.

So when people heard of a new Star Wars MMO backed by Lucas Arts, hopes were high, expectations were high, they wanted Galaxies back with updated graphics, and engines and that is not what we got, we got this.. instead. Non Galaxy fans don't understand the issue Galaxy fans have because they didn't play galaxies, they never had a house full of decorations, they never leveled up through 20 levels with a sand people rifle that their guildmate made them and then mounted it on their wall as a trophy, history of your character. No when something is no longer needed to them. They simply vendor it and away it goes. They never had the thrill of completing Ace Pilot quest solo for the first time or having the guild come together to build the gunship you unlocked that would be later used for guild space runs and transportation to dungeon events in space.

There was alot of good things in Galaxies that really brought guilds together and made lasting impacts on the people who played it, the fact that none of this made an impact in the development of TOR is what causes wounds in the Galaxy fans who are disappointed in TOR.

I see galaxy fans and non galaxy fans on these forums putting up suggestions and ideas on how to make this game better and almost every one of them I can't help but think after reading it is Well that was in Galaxies, and so was that. People want the complexity of Galaxies, they want free roam space, and bioengineering pets, crafting that requries player skill and a global market to encourage people to interact.

A little story for you from Star Wars Galaxies on the social interaction.

When I was a wee bounty hunter before I got good gear, I went on groups with my guild to fight sand people, they talked me through it, gave me orders, told me to stay in the cantina and kill any sandperson that came in, left me with a healer type to back me up while they went out to trigger parts of the quest. It was fun, it was strategic and engaging and when it was over a schematic for a really sweet rifle dropped and they gave it to me being the newest member of the team and the most in need of a good weapon. I thanked them kindly and then asked around where I should get it made at, because in Galaxies not everyone can make a gun, and some people are legendary in their crafting proffession.

Some of my guildies pointed me to a guy who lives on Tattoine, so I asked around and found his guild and asked his guild mates who gave me his name so I added him to friends, as this guy was suppose to be the premier gun maker on all of my server. I waited a few days till he showed up online when I was on and I talked to him, he said he didn't really make guns no more and was pretty busy researching bioengineering with his alt, but my persistance and polite manners won him over and he agreed to make me my rifle and even pulled out some premium resources he had hidden away in his house. I fly to Tattooine and rode my speeder to his workshop were he set to work on it and we talked for a good hour and I added him to my friends list because it turns out hes just a nice guy who loves the in depth crafting system.

When I returned to my guild with this premium rifle made by the legendary gun maker of my server, (which had his name permenantly stapled to the item description) custom named for me, the guild was so impressed with the fact I got him to make it (Think Hotari Hanzo from Kill Bill) that it was the talk of the guild chat all day. I kept that rifle well past my max level and used it on many bounty hunting missions and groups until I got a schematic for a compact assault rifle with better base stats.

But despite the sentimental attachment I had to that rifle I had to go with something better so I put it on the wall of my house above my display cases and all my hunting trophies, skulls, hunting tokens and collectables. By the time I was ready to stop playing because of the NGE my house was full of history and memories of my adventures across the galaxy and I felt like an old retired bounty hunter whos been from one end of the galaxy to the other, and to this day I miss it.

I don't see TOR having anything remotely close to that level of attachment that is required to sustain an MMO through years of development.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Meko

Deewe · February 16, 2012

A large portion of the fan base that has been watching TOR since it was first announced are SW-Galaxies players, they came here because Galaxies was ruined by S---- and LA ack can't even say the name, .

Fixed, don't forget LA requested the NGE after seeing how Wow was doing.

It's also LA that pushed SOE to deliver the NGE that fast. And don't forget many devs from SOE and LA moved to TOR team.

BTW not sure most SWG fan expected a SWG II, but more like a good multiplayer KOTOR with some sandbox features and at least a good 3d space sim even if in an Xpack.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Deewe

superlizard · February 16, 2012

A large portion of the fan base that has been watching TOR since it was first announced are SW-Galaxies players, they came here because Galaxies was ruined by S---- ack can't even say the name, with expectations that Bioware would take a lot of the good things from Galaxies and spruce it all up and add Bioware's famous story telling to the mix.

This is really expectation verses reality, Bioware looked at Galaxies and saw a failing MMO and didn't want to emulate it or take anything from it cause it was obviously dying, but it didn't die because it was a bad game, it died because S--- aaaccck I need a shower now, rolled it in bantha poodoo and put it on our door step, as much as the Galaxies fan's loved their game it was made unplayable, they loved it so much the fans themselves have gone further then any other MMO's fanbase and tried to keep emulations of it alive on free to play, private owned servers.

So when people heard of a new Star Wars MMO backed by Lucas Arts, hopes were high, expectations were high, they wanted Galaxies back with updated graphics, and engines and that is not what we got, we got this.. instead. Non Galaxy fans don't understand the issue Galaxy fans have because they didn't play galaxies, they never had a house full of decorations, they never leveled up through 20 levels with a sand people rifle that their guildmate made them and then mounted it on their wall as a trophy, history of your character. No when something is no longer needed to them. They simply vendor it and away it goes. They never had the thrill of completing Ace Pilot quest solo for the first time or having the guild come together to build the gunship you unlocked that would be later used for guild space runs and transportation to dungeon events in space.

There was alot of good things in Galaxies that really brought guilds together and made lasting impacts on the people who played it, the fact that none of this made an impact in the development of TOR is what causes wounds in the Galaxy fans who are disappointed in TOR.

I see galaxy fans and non galaxy fans on these forums putting up suggestions and ideas on how to make this game better and almost every one of them I can't help but think after reading it is Well that was in Galaxies, and so was that. People want the complexity of Galaxies, they want free roam space, and bioengineering pets, crafting that requries player skill and a global market to encourage people to interact.

A little story for you from Star Wars Galaxies on the social interaction.

When I was a wee bounty hunter before I got good gear, I went on groups with my guild to fight sand people, they talked me through it, gave me orders, told me to stay in the cantina and kill any sandperson that came in, left me with a healer type to back me up while they went out to trigger parts of the quest. It was fun, it was strategic and engaging and when it was over a schematic for a really sweet rifle dropped and they gave it to me being the newest member of the team and the most in need of a good weapon. I thanked them kindly and then asked around where I should get it made at, because in Galaxies not everyone can make a gun, and some people are legendary in their crafting proffession.
Some of my guildies pointed me to a guy who lives on Tattoine, so I asked around and found his guild and asked his guild mates who gave me his name so I added him to friends, as this guy was suppose to be the premier gun maker on all of my server. I waited a few days till he showed up online when I was on and I talked to him, he said he didn't really make guns no more and was pretty busy researching bioengineering with his alt, but my persistance and polite manners won him over and he agreed to make me my rifle and even pulled out some premium resources he had hidden away in his house. I fly to Tattooine and rode my speeder to his workshop were he set to work on it and we talked for a good hour and I added him to my friends list because it turns out hes just a nice guy who loves the in depth crafting system.

When I returned to my guild with this premium rifle made by the legendary gun maker of my server, (which had his name permenantly stapled to the item description) custom named for me, the guild was so impressed with the fact I got him to make it (Think Hotari Hanzo from Kill Bill) that it was the talk of the guild chat all day. I kept that rifle well past my max level and used it on many bounty hunting missions and groups until I got a schematic for a compact assault rifle with better base stats.

But despite the sentimental attachment I had to that rifle I had to go with something better so I put it on the wall of my house above my display cases and all my hunting trophies, skulls, hunting tokens and collectables. By the time I was ready to stop playing because of the NGE my house was full of history and memories of my adventures across the galaxy and I felt like an old retired bounty hunter whos been from one end of the galaxy to the other, and to this day I miss it.

I don't see TOR having anything remotely close to that level of attachment that is required to sustain an MMO through years of development.

Exactly -- well said. With SWG people worked together, bonded over crafting, housing, ships. The people ran the game with the economy, not the game running the people down a linear path. Anyone that played SWG has fond memories of mature people they met and worked together with. Events and battles fought side by side. Houses and ships held our items and memories. Some were made into museums that you could go to and walk through just looking at new and old items. People were so creative and things you never imagined you could do with objects could be turned into wonderful works of art that would take hours and days to complete.

I gave in and logged into the SWGEmu. As soon as I got to the log in screen I heard the music and I was home. Bugs and all I don't care, it just felt good to be back where you can be what you want to be and go where you want to go and you are the crafter.

Benomee · February 16, 2012

If only you knew how long it takes to make a game like this and the sheer amount of story boards and drawings and computer work just to get what we have. In the movies you see a "SET" in this game you also "PLAY" in a "SET"

If they actually took the time to try and make what you are suggesting and actually finish the game it would prob take them 10 years. By then the gfx would have to be updated, programing changes that were done at the start, in essence it would never get done.

What you are asking for in a game like this is unfortunately not possible with the time limits of a company working in an investor driven world. For a few people with unlimited money who could care less about how long it took then maybe.

So my point is that you are asking way to much for the reality of what they can accomplish in these types of games at launch. Nothing wrong with desiring it but just think it through what you are asking and do some research on what it takes to make these games.

Drannor · February 16, 2012

I have been following this thread for a while and I agree with Dreossk almost on all points, but I started to wonder if we don't idealize the games we played in the past (you know, the grass was greener etc.).

I did some research and here you are:

- real looking cities

- lots of npcs

- kids running

- guards patroling

- awesome graphics

- real water

- wind moving grass

- day/night effects

It feels so polished. Can't believe this game failed.

Hell, maybe I'll renew my subscription.

Dranzen · February 16, 2012

A large portion of the fan base that has been watching TOR since it was first announced are SW-Galaxies players, they came here because Galaxies was ruined by S---- ack can't even say the name, with expectations that Bioware would take a lot of the good things from Galaxies and spruce it all up and add Bioware's famous story telling to the mix.

This is really expectation verses reality, Bioware looked at Galaxies and saw a failing MMO and didn't want to emulate it or take anything from it cause it was obviously dying, but it didn't die because it was a bad game, it died because S--- aaaccck I need a shower now, rolled it in bantha poodoo and put it on our door step, as much as the Galaxies fan's loved their game it was made unplayable, they loved it so much the fans themselves have gone further then any other MMO's fanbase and tried to keep emulations of it alive on free to play, private owned servers.

So when people heard of a new Star Wars MMO backed by Lucas Arts, hopes were high, expectations were high, they wanted Galaxies back with updated graphics, and engines and that is not what we got, we got this.. instead. Non Galaxy fans don't understand the issue Galaxy fans have because they didn't play galaxies, they never had a house full of decorations, they never leveled up through 20 levels with a sand people rifle that their guildmate made them and then mounted it on their wall as a trophy, history of your character. No when something is no longer needed to them. They simply vendor it and away it goes. They never had the thrill of completing Ace Pilot quest solo for the first time or having the guild come together to build the gunship you unlocked that would be later used for guild space runs and transportation to dungeon events in space.

There was alot of good things in Galaxies that really brought guilds together and made lasting impacts on the people who played it, the fact that none of this made an impact in the development of TOR is what causes wounds in the Galaxy fans who are disappointed in TOR.

I see galaxy fans and non galaxy fans on these forums putting up suggestions and ideas on how to make this game better and almost every one of them I can't help but think after reading it is Well that was in Galaxies, and so was that. People want the complexity of Galaxies, they want free roam space, and bioengineering pets, crafting that requries player skill and a global market to encourage people to interact.

A little story for you from Star Wars Galaxies on the social interaction.

When I was a wee bounty hunter before I got good gear, I went on groups with my guild to fight sand people, they talked me through it, gave me orders, told me to stay in the cantina and kill any sandperson that came in, left me with a healer type to back me up while they went out to trigger parts of the quest. It was fun, it was strategic and engaging and when it was over a schematic for a really sweet rifle dropped and they gave it to me being the newest member of the team and the most in need of a good weapon. I thanked them kindly and then asked around where I should get it made at, because in Galaxies not everyone can make a gun, and some people are legendary in their crafting proffession.
Some of my guildies pointed me to a guy who lives on Tattoine, so I asked around and found his guild and asked his guild mates who gave me his name so I added him to friends, as this guy was suppose to be the premier gun maker on all of my server. I waited a few days till he showed up online when I was on and I talked to him, he said he didn't really make guns no more and was pretty busy researching bioengineering with his alt, but my persistance and polite manners won him over and he agreed to make me my rifle and even pulled out some premium resources he had hidden away in his house. I fly to Tattooine and rode my speeder to his workshop were he set to work on it and we talked for a good hour and I added him to my friends list because it turns out hes just a nice guy who loves the in depth crafting system.

When I returned to my guild with this premium rifle made by the legendary gun maker of my server, (which had his name permenantly stapled to the item description) custom named for me, the guild was so impressed with the fact I got him to make it (Think Hotari Hanzo from Kill Bill) that it was the talk of the guild chat all day. I kept that rifle well past my max level and used it on many bounty hunting missions and groups until I got a schematic for a compact assault rifle with better base stats.

But despite the sentimental attachment I had to that rifle I had to go with something better so I put it on the wall of my house above my display cases and all my hunting trophies, skulls, hunting tokens and collectables. By the time I was ready to stop playing because of the NGE my house was full of history and memories of my adventures across the galaxy and I felt like an old retired bounty hunter whos been from one end of the galaxy to the other, and to this day I miss it.

I don't see TOR having anything remotely close to that level of attachment that is required to sustain an MMO through years of development.

Meko, that was an interesting read from Rose tinted glasses. But what you highlight is "Guild". That's all that matters in a good MMO. Sadly, with the budgets that some companies have, they need to attract non-MMO players to get some money ie WoW and Arena.

There were some great elements in SWG, but there were many problems also - some which persisted throughout the life of the game. Bioware might be channeling that at the moment regarding the end game raiding in this game. I digress. But the game just released and soon there will be more to enjoy.

There will be some Sandbox elements coming down the pipe - Bioware has even mentioned it. As a community, we need to give more ideas regarding what we would like and not just state "It's not in the game at release, it's crap." That's a horrible way to develop a community and a game.

Izorii · February 16, 2012

A large portion of the fan base that has been watching TOR since it was first announced are SW-Galaxies players, they came here because Galaxies was ruined by S---- ack can't even say the name, with expectations that Bioware would take a lot of the good things from Galaxies and spruce it all up and add Bioware's famous story telling to the mix.

This is really expectation verses reality, Bioware looked at Galaxies and saw a failing MMO and didn't want to emulate it or take anything from it cause it was obviously dying, but it didn't die because it was a bad game, it died because S--- aaaccck I need a shower now, rolled it in bantha poodoo and put it on our door step, as much as the Galaxies fan's loved their game it was made unplayable, they loved it so much the fans themselves have gone further then any other MMO's fanbase and tried to keep emulations of it alive on free to play, private owned servers.

So when people heard of a new Star Wars MMO backed by Lucas Arts, hopes were high, expectations were high, they wanted Galaxies back with updated graphics, and engines and that is not what we got, we got this.. instead. Non Galaxy fans don't understand the issue Galaxy fans have because they didn't play galaxies, they never had a house full of decorations, they never leveled up through 20 levels with a sand people rifle that their guildmate made them and then mounted it on their wall as a trophy, history of your character. No when something is no longer needed to them. They simply vendor it and away it goes. They never had the thrill of completing Ace Pilot quest solo for the first time or having the guild come together to build the gunship you unlocked that would be later used for guild space runs and transportation to dungeon events in space.

There was alot of good things in Galaxies that really brought guilds together and made lasting impacts on the people who played it, the fact that none of this made an impact in the development of TOR is what causes wounds in the Galaxy fans who are disappointed in TOR.

I see galaxy fans and non galaxy fans on these forums putting up suggestions and ideas on how to make this game better and almost every one of them I can't help but think after reading it is Well that was in Galaxies, and so was that. People want the complexity of Galaxies, they want free roam space, and bioengineering pets, crafting that requries player skill and a global market to encourage people to interact.

A little story for you from Star Wars Galaxies on the social interaction.

When I was a wee bounty hunter before I got good gear, I went on groups with my guild to fight sand people, they talked me through it, gave me orders, told me to stay in the cantina and kill any sandperson that came in, left me with a healer type to back me up while they went out to trigger parts of the quest. It was fun, it was strategic and engaging and when it was over a schematic for a really sweet rifle dropped and they gave it to me being the newest member of the team and the most in need of a good weapon. I thanked them kindly and then asked around where I should get it made at, because in Galaxies not everyone can make a gun, and some people are legendary in their crafting proffession.
Some of my guildies pointed me to a guy who lives on Tattoine, so I asked around and found his guild and asked his guild mates who gave me his name so I added him to friends, as this guy was suppose to be the premier gun maker on all of my server. I waited a few days till he showed up online when I was on and I talked to him, he said he didn't really make guns no more and was pretty busy researching bioengineering with his alt, but my persistance and polite manners won him over and he agreed to make me my rifle and even pulled out some premium resources he had hidden away in his house. I fly to Tattooine and rode my speeder to his workshop were he set to work on it and we talked for a good hour and I added him to my friends list because it turns out hes just a nice guy who loves the in depth crafting system.

When I returned to my guild with this premium rifle made by the legendary gun maker of my server, (which had his name permenantly stapled to the item description) custom named for me, the guild was so impressed with the fact I got him to make it (Think Hotari Hanzo from Kill Bill) that it was the talk of the guild chat all day. I kept that rifle well past my max level and used it on many bounty hunting missions and groups until I got a schematic for a compact assault rifle with better base stats.

But despite the sentimental attachment I had to that rifle I had to go with something better so I put it on the wall of my house above my display cases and all my hunting trophies, skulls, hunting tokens and collectables. By the time I was ready to stop playing because of the NGE my house was full of history and memories of my adventures across the galaxy and I felt like an old retired bounty hunter whos been from one end of the galaxy to the other, and to this day I miss it.

I don't see TOR having anything remotely close to that level of attachment that is required to sustain an MMO through years of development.

Made me feel all warm in side. I was hoping for a SWG2 with a story when I heard about this game. Well at least I got the story part. I remember SWG being great but I am sure it can't be as great as we remember otherwise it would not have been cancelled for TOR.

Is has potential, but too many features are missing

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