Hunterzen Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) They would be great options that just added more freedom to the way we play an MMO. Sadly, little of this will probably ever make it into this game. Most of what you list is sandbox. The other is immersion intensive. These days most of the casuals want neither. They like the rails. Easy, no thought, log in and be lead along the track. They are happy for this streamlining we have currently. They will fight you tooth and nail to keep it so bare bones. To keep it as 'raids and arenas'... as my guildies call it. It is my first Theme park MMO also. I am as bewildered as you are... I watch the boards daily though, and it is apparent that the majority want it this way.... ^ Completely agree. These casual gamer children who cannot remember a non themepark cookie cutter MMORPG are so disgusting. They feel entitled to tell people who don't want such a linear POS game to go back to WoW or shut up and pay your monthly like they own this game and everyone in it. Yeah no thanks doing the same thing over and over only interest insane people. Stop trolling fan boys and learn a little more about product standards. Edited January 27, 2012 by Hunterzen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigota Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) This game isn't about exploration its about the story. You like exploring that's nice, this game isn't it. When I watch the star-wars movies I didn't get wondering during the big moments 'hey whats over there?" If anything they should focus on making every moment more epic. TOR chose to add 2000 hours of cutscenes and story to the classic WoW model with less features thousands of bugs, issues and flaws and no depth at all. The only thing that contributed to the genre is that... no one will ever, ever be dumb enough to do it again. MMOs are about dynamic content, not static content (story). And OP is so right with everything. In my opinion the biggest thing is really the dead worlds, the mazes walls and blockades everywere, instances which even get you more claustrophobic and you need to walk the same route over and over, and the way you use your spaceship(which feels like a load screen between load screens instead of being a real spaceship). This entire game is not even a themepark its just a railtrack in a themepark(remember walking back where you came in in an instanced quest? trains need to do the same xD)... No freedom. Edited January 27, 2012 by Rigota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidy Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I think the #1 thing is the lack of species/races. SW galaxy features so many species of aliens and to not be able to play them bc of romance stories or tech issues is a HUGE problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunterzen Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Rigota: "MMOs are about dynamic content, not static content (story)." ^ Now if you could just get this tattooed onto every developers wrist, and ignorant casual gamer we might just save TOR... Oh yeah Hero Engine never mind. Edited January 27, 2012 by Hunterzen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katesa Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Oh yeah Hero Engine never mind. LOL /10char wtblemonlaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeckTator Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Houses, what you need a house for. As a real hero I always pass out drunk in the cantina at the end of the day Agree with most parts the OP said. But we have to give them some time. They're probably working hard on adding tons of stuff. And I would guess the first expantion will expand space to a fullblown spacegame instead of just a minigame. As for trafic on Coruscant, they've stated that they can't render that many objects in a MMO as it has to be accessible to a wide range of computers not just the fastest setups. But games like Sim city have options to tune down displayed trafic so they could be able to something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigota Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Houses, what you need a house for. As a real hero I always pass out drunk in the cantina at the end of the day Agree with most parts the OP said. But we have to give them some time. They're probably working hard on adding tons of stuff. And I would guess the first expantion will expand space to a fullblown spacegame instead of just a minigame. As for trafic on Coruscant, they've stated that they can't render that many objects in a MMO as it has to be accessible to a wide range of computers not just the fastest setups. But games like Sim city have options to tune down displayed trafic so they could be able to something like that. Seeing they worked a year on Kaon Under Siege which maybe is big it gonna take at least X years untill this game is release ready with all flaws, bugs and issues solved and transformed into something fun. Edited January 27, 2012 by Rigota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielHex Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I think the #1 thing is the lack of species/races. SW galaxy features so many species of aliens and to not be able to play them bc of romance stories or tech issues is a HUGE problem. Dozens of species are in the game.. as companions. This has been explained by Both Bioware AND LucasArts. Incredibly Alien Creatures and droids are not main Star Wars Protagonists. I'm sorry, but they're not. They are supplementary characters and supporting cast of the main protagonists. Human beings cannot sympathize with, or have the necessary functions to understand extremely alien creatures so far removed from our own physiology. With this lack of pathos, there would be nothing to really link the player to the story. With species that we can identify with, with humanoid, human-like species, we can more easily transpose ourselves and our emotions into them as a vessal. That way, as the story progresses, we are invested in the plot and what occurs. The more alien species play a secondary role to support the main character, us, as we progress. We don't have to understand them, or transcend them. We take them as they are, but with an understanding that we cannot be them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevenstringking Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Completely agree with OP you are my hero and all the things you point out are what keep people playing for years. It makes you wonder what the hell the developers were thinking, like we were all just going to pay monthly to play a single player game? I have never seen a MMORPG so linear and repetitive as TOR. I just wish SWGemu had the funding TOR has and my dream of a true Star Wars Universe that I can live in will come true. Problem with your list is that none of these things can happen unless they bascially recreate a whole new game starting with a new engine. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmpearson Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Is there a mission history somewhere that I haven't found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qoojo Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I don't know if the OP intended his post to taken as comedy, but that's how I took it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganjiang Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 RazielHex brought up a ton of good points on page 9 as to why the OP's ideas can not/should not be implemented. I understand a lot of players want a sandbox MMO or a "totally immersive Star Wars experience," but TOR doesn't have the ability to provide either. Refer to his post as to why. I think player houses and guild halls would be a terrible idea in this game. The servers are sparsely populated as it is, compared to other MMOs. If players are hanging out in their guild halls or "sitting in chairs" in their own player houses, there will be even less activity in hub zones. In a sense, you already have a player house in the form of your ship. I'm aware of the fact it has zero customization and you can't invite your friends over, but it has all the functionality of a player house without the fluff. You can store stuff, gain rest XP, and travel/access space missions. The system just is not equipped to handle a lot of things the OP is asking for. Immersive cantinas, cities, and side streets just as they were presented in the movies? Unless you're running some top-of-the-line equipment (which most players don't have access to, myself included), a lot of the settings will be virtually unplayable. Hell, if the Coruscant Senate Cantina was at all like the Afterlife on Omega from Mass Effect 2, it would handle even worse than Ilum in it's current phase. I played pre-NGE SWG and throughly enjoyed it, but TOR and those types of immersive MMOs are completely different games. I don't hate a lot of the ideas the OP is talking about, but at least I realize many of the things that are being asked for here are just unrealistic for SWTOR to implement. Mechanically or otherwise. I will admit the crafting system is really weak though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreossk Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Dozens of species are in the game.. as companions. This has been explained by Both Bioware AND LucasArts. Incredibly Alien Creatures and droids are not main Star Wars Protagonists. I'm sorry, but they're not. They are supplementary characters and supporting cast of the main protagonists. Human beings cannot sympathize with, or have the necessary functions to understand extremely alien creatures so far removed from our own physiology. With this lack of pathos, there would be nothing to really link the player to the story. With species that we can identify with, with humanoid, human-like species, we can more easily transpose ourselves and our emotions into them as a vessal. That way, as the story progresses, we are invested in the plot and what occurs. The more alien species play a secondary role to support the main character, us, as we progress. We don't have to understand them, or transcend them. We take them as they are, but with an understanding that we cannot be them. Between what BioWare says, and logic, there is usually a big gap. People need to stop believing what BioWare says all the time without thinking for themselves. That problem with aliens is not actually a problem is a good example of their manipulation. Edited January 27, 2012 by Dreossk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyom Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Trivial for you but the reason to stay for many others. Not everyone wants to just raid or do warzones. Having a good gameplay is indeed the base of the game but if they leave too many things out and delay their implementation, people won't stay around waiting for long. Not everyone wants to play "The Sims: Star Wars Edition" either. Yes, some of these things would be great to have, but you need to understand limitations. They can't actually make Coruscant as awesome and epic as it is in the movies just due to the amount of processing that would take. Thousands and thousands of NPCs concentrated in one area that you have free ability to explore every nook and cranny would break the servers, not to mention half of the player's computers couldn't handle it. Now, I agree, there are things the game needs. Additions to space missions, additions to crew skills, raids, pvp, social activities, etcetera. But some of your suggestions simply aren't feasible or provide no real value. What people need to understand is the game is a month old. Before that, there was a limited beta testing period where they were just fixing bugs, not creating new content. A ton of work went into the leveling experience in this game and, to be quite honest, it's the most fun I've had playing a game in quite a while. Yes, the end game is lacking. Give them time to add content and it'll be fine. This is Bioware's first excursion into the world of MMO's and it's a completely different beast than your average RPG development process. Wait it out, give it time, do something else in the meantime if you have to. If you didn't want to deal with bugs or running out of content, you shouldn't have jumped immediately into an MMO at launch. Every single one of them will disappoint you in some manner or another. /rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreossk Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I hear you about the fact that the game is a month old. That would have been fine except for the fact that BioWare said the game would contain every expected AAA MMO features, which is clearly not the case when you see that it doesn't even have stuff more basic than that like day/night, swimming, UI customization, world interaction, high textures, etc and actual AAA MMO feature like housing and living world. For your part about the addition of NPC, it actually has been done before and games exists where you can see hundreds or maybe thousands of NPC in a not so big space and it worked just fine on computers that were good 6 years ago. Sure, they had braindead AI and all they could do was walk around but that's all we need. Life. Edited February 1, 2012 by Dreossk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendar_Evress Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Bravo OP Bravo. Recently, after being fundamentaly disapointed on so many levels with the companions, storyline and old fashioned cleric/preist like play of the jedi sage/healer (it just doesn't feel like a jedi and the story is dull as dirt), the excessively rapid exp gains for all classes, poor character and clothing customisation options and the missing nature of many of the other features you mentioned i revisited EQ2. While it does not compare in many ways with the polish or grandeur of swtor. It does have many of the features you listed and a fantastic feeling of a real and motile world that i think Bioware could learn a lot from; Big open spaces you can litterally get lost in, Multiple ways of leveling the same class without having to repeat everything again (and again if you do the other class that has the same starting world), day/night cycles, Rigorous crafting that you actually feel as if you are doing something toward, enemies and npc's that move around more. If only it had the player population then in some ways, (different ones to be sure), it would probably be the better game. I for one am tired of the recent trend in mmo gaming to make everything faceroll easy or too quick to level then reliant on people making their own fun in PvP to occupy them until the next additional content that will invariably take an evening to complete but a week of grinding to get the gear from. A modern game needs to be entertaining at each and every level, each one has to feel like it was an effort not just the last 5 and the journey and settings need to be as epic as the loots ^^ I'll keep my subscription for the next month or so to see how things pan out, but i doubt i'll be keeping it a lot longer without something more to engage me than endless PvP and repeat raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirtandtie Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Dreossk this is by far the best post i have seen created on these forums (as far as giving constructive criticism and suggestions go). -Dead world -Exploration -Day/night cycle -Dynamic weather -Environment interaction, social activites & RP -Interface & graphics -Character -Endgame -Housing I agree 100% with all these points. You took the words straight out of my mouth. Two things i want talk to you about. First thing is how i also am disappointed how this game was released without having some of the most popular features of other games. For example let us look at character creation. With games like Aion(09) and Champions Online(09) we MMORPG fans see that there have been some amazing advances on character customization. No longer do we have to choose from a number of premade faces and a handful of skin tones only. The technology to customize height, body mass, facial features, gear (Champions Online) and other details exists! The technology to create logos for your clothing/gear/vehicles now exists in the new MMO APB(2010). Another amazing thing about the APB character creator is that they actually allow you to customize the length of your avatars hair. SWTOR is todays new MMO but has a character creator that is significantly less impressive than MMOs that were released 3 years ago. Remember this is just one example i am using to explain myself. Dreossk pointed out several like Day/night feature or weather. Second thing i would like to talk to you about Dreossk is thanks for mentioning the appearance tab. I thought it was a personal triumph when WoW finally decided to implement one after years and years of threads about it on the official forums. At the moment i felt that the last horse had finally crossed the finish line. I relaxed knowing that WoW had it, Lotro, CO, DCUO, DragonNest, AoC, Aion, Rift, Global Agenda and even the new MMOs being released this year would have it like Tera and GW2(called "Town clothing"). Then i buy SWTOR and there is not the slightest whisper of such a feature being added any time soon. This again brings me back to my last point and your post: popular features being completely left out. Features that i too have come to call "Basic" and "Fundamental". I am not a Star Wars fan. So what i see when i play is an MMO that lacks many features that i absolutely expect in a game of this genre. With these features included i would easily get over my indifference to Jedis, the force, and the war between the Republic and Empire. With these features i could very well become a frequent subscriber to this game. With that thought i leave some advice for you Dreossk, do not settle for a SW game that is of a lower quality than its predecessor that was released in 2003. Protest with your wallet and unsubscribe. Like me =] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harabek Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 The thing it's missing the most (at 50) -> FUN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreossk Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 With that thought i leave some advice for you Dreossk, do not settle for a SW game that is of a lower quality than its predecessor that was released in 2003. Protest with your wallet and unsubscribe. Like me =] Yeah, I still have two months remaining, pretty sure I won't continue after that. It's just very disappointing to see it coming to that end after years of waiting and dedication but oh well, maybe they will do some changes in two months or maybe not and we'll just have to hope the next company that makes a Star Wars MMO gets it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dria Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Dead world What ever you say I have not found the world to be dead, don't have a comment about Coruscant since well I am not invited to the tea parties there. Nar Shaddaa in my opinion has life and is having the populated feeling - you did know that Nar Shaddaa is not on a ground level at all.. I am though guessing that they will add more NPC's in the future stick and glue things. But do keep in mind this is not the movie... the movies are not even same history page as this one is. Scenes happening on the movie are .... what 300+ years away. Exploration I just say - incoming and if you cannot wait then I would love to know that you have gone through all the content has to offer meaning there is no place on the map that you have not opened. But I do agree that there should be at least a fair warning on the "your dying now zone" Day/night cycle I keep repeating my self with words - Incoming possibly maybe soonish I guess. Dynamic weather I keep repeating my self with words - Incoming possibly maybe soonish I guess. Environment interaction, social activites & RP I think that since we can already take a seat in our space ship at captains chair we might soon also be able to do that in bar... to other stuff.. could be happening or could not be happening.. I keep repeating my self with words - Incoming possibly maybe soonish I guess. PvP Not even touching this.. Space & vehicle SWG = Dead ( this is to every person that goes and lives in that fluffy dream and looks back with tears in their eyes. ) would be good to stop kicking the dead horse. Though I don't mind about some one kicking a dead horse. Interface & graphics I keep repeating my self with words - Incoming possibly maybe soonish I guess. I disagree on the statement that chat bubbles are "The basic feature for social interaction" but I guess for you they are. Character SWG = Dead ( this is to every person that goes and lives in that fluffy dream and looks back with tears in their eyes. ) would be good to stop kicking the dead horse. Though I don't mind about some one kicking a dead horse. Guild I keep repeating my self with words - Incoming possibly maybe soonish I guess. Endgame I disagree and you call your self RP person, it's not only Raid raid raid or PvP pvp pvp... I would have thought that you of all could think some thing else to do and not just omgz pixels from raids. Housing I keep repeating my self with words - Incoming possibly maybe soonish I guess. SWG = Dead ( this is to every person that goes and lives in that fluffy dream and looks back with tears in their eyes. ) would be good to stop kicking the dead horse. Though I don't mind about some one kicking a dead horse. Crafting I can see future on this one but I of course cannot know what Bioware has in mind to it. SWG = Dead ( this is to every person that goes and lives in that fluffy dream and looks back with tears in their eyes. ) would be good to stop kicking the dead horse. Though I don't mind about some one kicking a dead horse. Conclusion SWG = Dead ( this is to every person that goes and lives in that fluffy dream and looks back with tears in their eyes. ) would be good to stop kicking the dead horse. Though I don't mind about some one kicking a dead horse. All around good things written by Dreossk but I do disagree on few matters, some I down right say are just whining but of course that is my opinion on the matters. And again I remind you whom loved SWG - Hey wake up!! SWG = Dead ( this is to every person that goes and lives in that fluffy dream and looks back with tears in their eyes. ) would be good to stop kicking the dead horse. Though I don't mind about some one kicking a dead horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubiconn Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I totally agree with the OP, but there is one thing I would like to see added to the game, a better CHARACTER CREATOR, I do NOT, and I repeat, I do NOT like not having the freedom to create my own and very unique character, I HATE the fact that I have to look like everyone else until I find another piece of gear that has been dropped by some random mob, oh well, there's my rant..I hope they actually do something about that sometime in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubernetic Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 While some of these things are great suggestions and "nice to haves", I'm not convinced that any of them are necessary to immersion. But to pretend that all of this was possible right out of the gate along with everything else they have done to cram into this game is just preposterous. You want to describe them as "missing", but I'd say it's more likely some of them are "yet to be added". Take dynamic weather, for instance. Perhaps there's a desire for weather that changes in various areas, but they're waiting until they can get the effects just right so that when it rains, the environment glistens and shines with the water that appears on the ground, instead of just half-assing the process like other games do and showing the rain, but no resulting effects on the environment. Maybe when it snows, they want the snow to pile up with transitional geometry. Then there might be other concerns. On Coruscant, for example, perhaps the thing they wanted ALL players who arrive their for their first time to see was the shining bright sky and the Senate Plaza in full light and unobstructed by night or weather changes. I wouldn't have had a problem if I showed up at night and it was raining, but I wonder if that's the same for all players? Perhaps they had weather systems in at one point, and they realized that testing groups didn't like the effects, or preferred the game without them? Just because we can say "I want that!" doesn't mean that it was feasible, or made sense, or could be jammed in before launch. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jihn Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Great post op! It is a lot to wish for, but it is a bunch of good suggestions the devs should take note of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elocke Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Trivial for you but the reason to stay for many others. Not everyone wants to just raid or do warzones. Having a good gameplay is indeed the base of the game but if they leave too many things out and delay their implementation, people won't stay around waiting for long. This^^. I've already unsubbed because of the lack of "trivial but nice" stuff. I'll come back when they implement, IF they implement it. I'm still waiting for WoW to implement stuff like this and I unsubbed from them too for the very same reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirdapeswtor Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Great post, agree with OP on most things. Day/Night cycle is very high on my list of 'wish they would implement this fast' Currently the only 'chill out' stuff I see is hunting datacrons/lore objects and crafting. The latter doesnt even require any farming of mats you just send your companions for whatever you need and wait. No need to farm or travel anywhere for anything, Sometimes I just don't feel like PVP'ing or doing fps/ops, but very few options if I want that kind of alternative gaming experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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