Is Ravage really a dps loss for Vengeance?

[steinsgate]

First of all, it's not a rotation, it's a priority system. Get the idea of a set rotation out of your head. You do yourself and the class a disservice as long as you operate from a "rotation" perspective.

 

...

 

Because Ravage does more damage than Impale does. And again, rotation is a bad word. Stop using it. Stop thinking "Rotation." If you keep thinking of it as a rotation, you'll never get it right and you'll keep coming here asking stuff like "Why is Ravage SO BAD?!?!?!11one"

Duh.

 

Rotation and Priority are practically interchangeable. I've played WoW for four years, so I know how dps works. Get the idea that your definitions are the only definitions out of your head. And if it's not a rotation, why are skills listed multiple times? You also didn't address not keeping 100% uptime on Shatter. That's pretty damn important.

 

All three ticks of ravage do more damage than impale, yes. Impale + anything else does more damage than Ravage. Ravage's DPET is pure, unadulterated garbage. Duh.

Edited January 17, 2012 by steinsgate

[joerumble]

1-second Ravage trick makes Ravage a DPS gain for Vengeance because for some reason it only triggers a 1 second GCD as well. However, and this is a big however, Vengeance is so rage hungry that only when you get 4pc Vindicators/Force Leaps/have Enrage up can you take advantage of Ravage in this way without potentially delaying your next Shatter/Scream/Impale.

 

This is all divined from the Sith Warrior DPS spreadsheet that came out, so take it with a grain of salt as the bugs are worked out.

 

As a funny aside, Ravage is a huge DPS gain for Rage PvE specs. Go figure!

 

TL;DR Ravage needs a massive buff.

[steinsgate]

TL;DR Ravage needs a massive buff.

 

Nooooooo. It needs to be removed from the game.

[Soonerjohn]

1-second Ravage trick makes Ravage a DPS gain for Vengeance because for some reason it only triggers a 1 second GCD as well. However, and this is a big however, Vengeance is so rage hungry that only when you get 4pc Vindicators/Force Leaps/have Enrage up can you take advantage of Ravage in this way without potentially delaying your next Shatter/Scream/Impale.

 

This is all divined from the Sith Warrior DPS spreadsheet that came out, so take it with a grain of salt as the bugs are worked out.

 

As a funny aside, Ravage is a huge DPS gain for Rage PvE specs. Go figure!

 

TL;DR Ravage needs a massive buff.

 

I'm pretty sure the spreadsheet has some values off on ravage.

 

Yep, just checked it and found this post from ezmode:

 

Vengeance compendium is being reworked by Tsuneo and may not be completely up-to-date to include ravage/half ravage.

The Ravage formula is not currently correct, which shows that it does more damage than the ingame tooltip says.

I may have accidentally left some numbers in cells T37 and T38 in Calculations, which further inflates the value of Ravage, feel free to delete those numbers.

 

I'm not yet 100% convinced it is a dps loss, but from all my testing it has been.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Soonerjohn

[joerumble]

Ravage needs two of the following things-

 

a) Generates rage per tick

b) Swing on the move

c) Flat out more damage

 

It so pitiful compared to Unload/Full Auto and Force Lightning/TK throw

[Dreadspectre]

Ravage needs two of the following things-

 

a) Generates rage per tick

b) Swing on the move

c) Flat out more damage

 

It so pitiful compared to Unload/Full Auto and Force Lightning/TK throw

 

Do you guys even use the ability? Are you 50 with good gear? Ravage, in the span of 3 seconds, hits for basically 2 impales AND allows you to Impale damn near right on top of the final tick because the GCD is finished while Ravage animation is going.

 

3rd tick of Ravage can break 3k damage on crits, which my Impale has only done a couple times on lowbies. The only thing wrong with Ravage is its not a channel on the move. Seriously, change it to moving channel and Ravage would be great. It has a 30 sec CD and Impale/Shatter can reset it.

[oldskoolfunk]

I happen to like Ravage/Master Strike, but trying to convince anyone of it's benefits is like trying to talk politics/religion.

[Varteras]

I definitely think that Ravage needs to be reworked. Either the damage on Ravage needs to be greatly increased for the final strike or the attack itself needs to have its channel time reduced to 2 seconds regardless of spec. A problem with simply increasing the damage of the final strike is that while this MAY solve the PvE problem of Ravage being a DPS loss it doesn't solve the problem still suffered in PvP and that is the fact that a melee class has to stand still for that long. Most of the time your opponent will be able to escape the hit box before the final strike. The only times where it is even remotely excusable to use the ability is if you're currently rage starved for whatever reason or the enemy is currently incapacitated. I would say that reducing the channel time to 2 seconds is the best way to go. It would increase the damage you do with that GCD, make it far more likely that all 3 hits will connect before your opponent leaves the hit box, and reduce the time you're simply standing there. I know some people don't like the idea of a channel time but if Bioware insists that a channel time be present on this ability because they want the animation to look a certain way (see; really cool) then I think this would be the best option.

[Four_Leaf_Clover]

I would have thought ravages tendency to bug out and effectively become a 3 second+ stun would be enough to put people off it. At least in PvP.

 

Ain't worth the risk in serious fights imo.

[Sivn]

Rework all melee based channeled skills (Ravage, Flamethrower etc) so that the final tick has a 50% chance to crit and allow movement while channeling.

 

That should improve the ability damage wise and make it useful in all aspects of gameplay for melee based characters, becuase as we all know channeled abilities for melee characters is idiotic at best.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Sivn

[Nemmar]

I think this is a big issue to venegence juggernauts and vigilance jedi knights. It the core mechanic on the end of the talent tree, wich should be the one the class is balanced around and gives the bigger benefit (resetting the cooldown of ravage/master strike).

 

I really wish Bioware could tell us something about this. This cant be working as intended when players dont even use it.

[slelfief]

If Ravage generated Rage then all of these problems would be moot. Have it provide 2-3 Rage and suddenly it's our best attack.

[JamieM]

I think this is a big issue to venegence juggernauts and vigilance jedi knights. It the core mechanic on the end of the talent tree, wich should be the one the class is balanced around and gives the bigger benefit (resetting the cooldown of ravage/master strike).

 

I really wish Bioware could tell us something about this. This cant be working as intended when players dont even use it.

 

I completely agree - if it really is a dps loss then it's a redundant ability and something is wrong as it is clearly touted along with shatter as our premier damage dealing ability (hence why I feel I should prioritise it).

 

Gabe or Georg would you mind wading in here with your thoughts please, even if it is to simply state that the matter is being looked into / the ability is working as intended etc? Thanks a lot.

Edited January 18, 2012 by JamieM

[youwillburn]

Ravage need to be talentable to reduce it's channeling time by 0.5/1 second

[Nemmar]

Ravage need to be talentable to reduce it's channeling time by 0.5/1 second

 

Generate rage would be the best and/or increasing the damage dealt.

 

Reducing the cast would cause more problems with the animation. The animation would have to be severely sped up to keep up with the cast. Not that its a bad solution in itself, probably just one that i dont see Bioware implementing.

[joerumble]

Vengeance is simply too rage hungry to afford 3 seconds of no rage generation. When you're not hitting Shatter/Impale/Scream (that's 4.5s every 9s) you need to be doing 2 Sundering Assaults (3s of 9s). That gives you ONE GCD per cycle to use something else.. say Assault to pad your rage or Smash for extra damage.

 

Ravage never fits in this rotation. You either delay a key dps ability or you delay your rage generators which ultimately results in delaying a key dps ability.

 

Contrast this with Unload or Force Lightning where you basically want it to it on cooldown as much as possible.

 

Either Rampage needs to proc a channel haste (contract it to 1.5s channel) or Ravage needs to replace Sundering Assault/Assault as a rage generating tool.

 

Oh and it should ALWAYS be channel on the move.

[bliapis]

personally i use it after i used impale/scream combo AND have rage enough for the next impale/scream. The damage is quite nice and like i said it goes between impale and scream whenever i have enough rage.

[Soonerjohn]

personally i use it after i used impale/scream combo AND have rage enough for the next impale/scream. The damage is quite nice and like i said it goes between impale and scream whenever i have enough rage.

 

The only time you will have the extra rage is if you aren't using shatter. If you aren't using shatter you are losing dps.

 

Basically, don't use ravage.

[Nemmar]

Vengeance is simply too rage hungry to afford 3 seconds of no rage generation. When you're not hitting Shatter/Impale/Scream (that's 4.5s every 9s) you need to be doing 2 Sundering Assaults (3s of 9s). That gives you ONE GCD per cycle to use something else.. say Assault to pad your rage or Smash for extra damage.

 

Ravage never fits in this rotation. You either delay a key dps ability or you delay your rage generators which ultimately results in delaying a key dps ability.

 

Contrast this with Unload or Force Lightning where you basically want it to it on cooldown as much as possible.

 

Either Rampage needs to proc a channel haste (contract it to 1.5s channel) or Ravage needs to replace Sundering Assault/Assault as a rage generating tool.

 

Oh and it should ALWAYS be channel on the move.

 

That in bold would not solve the issue at all. It would still be an undesiarable button to push even if you could do it on the move.

 

Also, if its a pvp concern... from the moment you press it and the first hit strike, your target is gonna get hit with all 3 hits even if he runs away. It means you should only use it when the target is dying basically.

[omninull]

Ravage needs a talent that lets you move while it's 'channeled'. Preferably in the vengeance tree since who would use it in a smash/rage build.

[oldskoolfunk]

Vengeance is simply too rage hungry to afford 3 seconds of no rage generation. When you're not hitting Shatter/Impale/Scream (that's 4.5s every 9s) you need to be doing 2 Sundering Assaults (3s of 9s). That gives you ONE GCD per cycle to use something else.. say Assault to pad your rage or Smash for extra damage.

 

Ravage never fits in this rotation. You either delay a key dps ability or you delay your rage generators which ultimately results in delaying a key dps ability.

 

Contrast this with Unload or Force Lightning where you basically want it to it on cooldown as much as possible.

 

Either Rampage needs to proc a channel haste (contract it to 1.5s channel) or Ravage needs to replace Sundering Assault/Assault as a rage generating tool.

 

Oh and it should ALWAYS be channel on the move.

 

You contradict yourself here in the statements that I bolded. Actually the fact that Ravage does such high damage for 0 (that's ZERO) rage makes it incredibly useful with a specific strategy.

 

With 2pts in the Immortal tree for Enraged Sunder (gives a 100% chance to add an additional rage to Sundering Assault) you can gain +6 rage over 4 global cool downs while still having decent damage out put (Sunder - Ravage - Sunder). The only time this doesn't work out effectively is in movement heavy fights where you can't spare being rooted in place for 3 seconds. Though that is also, often times, an issue with timing the ability from learning the encounter.

 

I've been in movement heavy fights, and once I figured the pace I found when to Ravage. If I am running that low on rage I can use Force Choke between two Sunders or use Enrage. I rarely resort to using Assault. It's a last ditch effort in a dire circumstance, and in PVE I can control my resource enough to not need it for the majority of fights.

 

Let's look at another talent that offers synergy... Rampage. 30% chance from too attacks to reset the cool down on Ravage. This talent is actually really good for maintaining rage, and setting up damage.

 

I'm actually finding Ravage to be my most highly prioritized attack out of my tool kit for Vengeance next to Sundering Assault.

 

I'll illustrate what I am talking about...

 

I'll start with [saber Throw - Charge - Sundering Assault - Ravage - Sundering Assault]

 

This sets me at maximum rage (12). The Sunders also allow Shatter to unlock.

 

I'll Shatter - Force Scream - Sundering Assault. That's a fairly expensive combo even with Shien's Refund, and a Sundering Assault. If you spec into Battle Cry this isn't so bad after your opener, but can become an issue the longer a fight goes. If Rampage has procced, and Ravage is up... I'll Ravage right after that other Sunder, and Sunder again (if I am not capped on rage) placing both on cool down.

 

If Shatter's DoT is still rolling I'll then prioritize Impale -> Smash -> Sunder (again if not near max rage). At this point I should be close to the max on my resource again (typically this is the case). If rampage didn't proc, Shatter's DoT should be finished, and I'll Shatter - Scream again.

 

Take Ravage as an ability that can net you with positive rage between 2x Sunder's. Then look at what you can do in it's place for the same result.

 

For 2 global cool downs you can use any combination of Shatter/Impale/Scream/Smash/Assault/Vicious Slash/Force Choke/Force Push. A few of these combos will absolutely yield you more damage for the time spent, but they also cost you upto 50% of your resource. None of those abilities in any configuration will net you +6 rage for as much damage as you get with Ravage between two Sunders.

 

(To Recap) Ravage does more damage than 2 Vicious Slashes for Vengeance. Ravage plus 2 Sunders gives more rage for more damage than any combination that has to use Assault.

 

Vengeance's strategy seems to be centered around high cost attacks with fairly long cool downs. Vengeance is NOT a spam happy spec. You will be very disappointed if you expect to use your spenders as you will not be able to maintain high levels of resources for long. If you want to have a shorter cool down attack cycle with spamming spenders look into a Carnage spec Marauder.

 

If people want to QQ about an attack that we get at a low level that falls off in usefulness... Cry rivers about Vicious Slash doing less damage than Smash for Vengeance specs.

[Schwarzwald]

I've heard that using Ravage off cooldown is actually a dps loss for Vengeance dps, and that players shouldn't take the talents that reduce or reset ravage cooldown. Is this true? Of course, nobody can quantify this claim, but I'd still like to hear from the people who claim it. What do you use between impale/shatter/sundering cooldowns instead of ravage? Do you ever use force choke?

 

Lvl 50 responses, please. Thanks!

 

Ravage is intended to be used while impale and shatter are on cooldown. Vicious slash is a waste of your rage if you are deep vengeance and your DPS will drop down when you have to generate all that rage up again.

[Soonerjohn]

For 2 global cool downs you can use any combination of Shatter/Impale/Scream/Smash/Assault/Vicious Slash/Force Choke/Force Push. A few of these combos will absolutely yield you more damage for the time spent, but they also cost you upto 50% of your resource. None of those abilities in any configuration will net you +6 rage for as much damage as you get with Ravage between two Sunders.

 

 

Any combo of impale, shatter, or force scream will yield more damage than a ravage. You can also absolutely keep your rage up to keep these 3 going forever after getting your 4 piece bonus.

 

I've tested every rotation, including yours, to see which yields the most dps and any with ravage in it is a loss in dps.

[joerumble]

People need to stop stick manning the argument. By all means, if you love Ravage, use it to your hearts content, but it's a dps loss because one Ravage is less damage than any combination of key rage spending abilities.. and since it doesn't generate rage, within the cooldown of Shatter/Impact, you need to Sundering Assault twice.

 

This leaves ONE gcd. Thus the whole one GCD Ravage strategy where you let the first two hits go through, interrupt it and hit something of higher priority. Of course this happens rarely because you often need to use Smash or Assault in this filler to afford your next cycle.

 

If Shien form generated 1 rage per 6 seconds while in combat instead of being attacked, it might allow you to Ravage. If Savagery worked on Rampage instead of Force Scream, it would also make a full channel worthwhile. Finally, Ravage generating Rage would actually allow you to sub out Sundering Assault whenever Ravage is available (sometimes).

 

4pc Vindicator replaces one generic Assault every ~3 shatters.. just not enough to include a full Ravage.

 

I still think the 1 second Ravage is worth fitting in when you have excess rage due to Enrage or Deadly Reprisal.. but I digress, it's very clunky.

 

If you really like Ravage, play Rage, it's always a DPS increase there!

[shyguysamurai]

Would an idea build to maximize DPS w/o using Ravage (I'm not saying it is or is not a DPS loss) look like this?

 

I'm not far into my Vengeance Juggernaut yet but I dislike Ravage as a play mechanic already.