Involuntarily flagged for PvP as a 32 by a 50 on a PvE server.

[terminova]

This is the way it works on pve servers. You used a Area of Effect attack and hit a pvp flagged enemy in the process. It wasn't the mob he attacked, no it was your attack hitting him. He tricked you, sure but in the end it is your fault. Simply should not have used a AOE.

 

That's actually counter-intuitive. AoE spells should not hit enemy faction players if the caster is not flagged. I could cast AoE spells all day long in WoW on a PvE server around opposing flagged players and not flag myself: only targeted spells/attacks flagged you which was to prevent players from intentionally running into someone's AoE to flag them.

 

It wasn't actually his fault, it was the other player's fault.

[Goretzu]

Exactly. That zone is for PvP. I don't want to PvP. So I never play that zone. And in the reamainder of the game, ZERO issues of a PvP nature.

 

And in SWTOR I rolled on a PvE server because they said it would be PvP by consent of both parties only. Yet Bioware has not only given people the ability to PvP on a PvE server, they've given them the ability to drag anyone else into it whenever they choose, regardless of the wishes of the person they're dragging into it.

 

 

 

Exactly. So remove the PvP flag altogether, there is no viable reason to want it on a PvE server. Just make it auto-flag for the PvP zone.

 

This would completely fix PvP on PvE servers, and help PvP servers too.

[terminova]

You don't PvP, how would you know how frustrating CC is or what it does?

 

Mobs have CC abilities, it's frustrating when you get hit by them and your get out of jail free card is on CD.

 

Exactly. So remove the PvP flag altogether, there is no viable reason to want it on a PvE server. Just make it auto-flag for the PvP zone.

 

This would completely fix PvP on PvE servers, and help PvP servers too.

 

 

The flag is for those who wish to participate in PvP in areas other than PvP zones with other like-minded players which is why it exists.

Edited January 25, 2012 by terminova

[VarnieTsk]

Exactly. So remove the PvP flag altogether, there is no viable reason to want it on a PvE server. Just make it auto-flag for the PvP zone.

 

This would completely fix PvP on PvE servers, and help PvP servers too.

 

I would love nothing more than to have a pure PvE server in this game. But that's never going to happen. Unfortunately we're forgetting one thing. Bioware loves PvP. If PvPers couldn't have access to all servers there would be a huge outcry. And as we've seen, any huge outcry from the PvP community is promptly addressed.

 

As it is, I don't really have a problem with PvP on the PvE servers. I understand that people want to play with their friends and all, or they want to PvP part of the time, etc. I just object to their ability to drag me into it.

 

In MxO I played on a PvP server because that's where my friends were. I didn't run around trying to interfere with people's PvP. I see no reason to allow people to interfere with my PvE on a PvE server.

[Goretzu]

I would love nothing more than to have a pure PvE server in this game. But that's never going to happen. Unfortunately we're forgetting one thing. Bioware loves PvP. If PvPers couldn't have access to all servers there would be a huge outcry. And as we've seen, any huge outcry from the PvP community is promptly addressed.

 

As it is, I don't really have a problem with PvP on the PvE servers. I understand that people want to play with their friends and all, or they want to PvP part of the time, etc. I just object to their ability to drag me into it.

 

In MxO I played on a PvP server because that's where my friends were. I didn't run around trying to interfere with people's PvP. I see no reason to allow people to interfere with my PvE on a PvE server.

 

PvP has no real place on a PvE server (outside of maybe specific PvP zone), as you've said yourself.

 

This would be an easy fix, and would complete fix any possible expliots on PvE servers as well as helping PvP server populations.

 

Win:win for all.

 

 

The flag is for those who wish to participate in PvP in areas other than PvP zones with other like-minded players which is why it exists.

 

 

It still would be in zone specified for PvP, and no where else.

 

Why would you want a PvE flag anywhere else on a PvE server anyway?

[Sapphireshadow]

I have been following this thread and others like it for a while now and agree totally with OP. The mechanic should be changed to keep the griefers from their bread and butter.

 

I have yet to have this happen to me cause none of my toons are high enough level to be in any at risk areas. Throwing my support behind this thread however, in hopes that by the time I am in that situation Bioware will have it fixed to where I cannot be dragged into a play style I don't want.

 

If it's not fixed by the time I am in those areas you can bet your tuchas that I will be reporting every single person that does it to me.

[Chessack]

This thread and the other thread about this that is twice as long really shows that Bioware needs to at least RESPOND to this issue and tell us what they are thinking. It could be a bug... an intended design that has consequences they did not for see... or completely intended behavior. We really have a right to know which it is.

 

I, for one, rolled on a PVE/RP server to avoid this kind of ganking/griefing. If TOR is not going to protect me from it, well then as much as I love it otherwise, I might have to let my 3-month sub lapse come April. Yeah not much of a threat right now, and I'd hate to do it because I love the game otherwise. But I am NOT going to get griefed repeatedly on a PVE server by PVP bullies. I played on a PVE server to avoid that.

 

Still I need to know what their intentions are. If they don't want this kind of BS to happen and it's just a flaw, bug, or mistake, fine, I can wait to get it fixed, knowing that violators will be punished in the mean time if they keep using a "known exploit." But if this is working as intended and they really mean to allow other people to force me to PVP on a PVE/RP server, then I might just have to be gone from this game.

 

One way or another we need a dev to respond to these issues.

[sosolidshoe]

It's griefing.

 

Griefing? C'mon son.

 

Said it before, and I'll likely have to say it five million more times because your sort even tried pulling this kind of whingery in EvE - a game which is pretty much the epitome of PvP; "PvE" does not translate to "cannot be PvP'd, ever, for any reason, unless potential opponent first fills out form G2456165(Permission to Initiate Hostilities), in triplicate, and files it at Bioware's HQ personally".

 

The OP was in an area which permits members of both factions. They knew this at the time. Anyone who has played an MMO in the last decade is aware of how flagging mechanics work. The game should not play for you, and expecting players to possess a modicum of situational awareness is not unreasonable.

 

You met an idiot, you fell for his ruse, you payed a few K in repairs and went right back to doing the same thing you were before in the same spot. It's not a big deal, and in attempting to make it into one, you could very well **** up the entire PvP mechanics system, when this is an evident case of PEBKAC.

[RudeDog]

Mobs have CC abilities, it's frustrating when you get hit by them and your get out of jail free card is on CD.

 

 

 

 

The flag is for those who wish to participate in PvP in areas other than PvP zones with other like-minded players which is why it exists.

 

 

Players that want to open world PVP should be on a PVP server, no exception. PVE server is for Player v. Environment, not PVP. It is stupid to have a PVP flag on a PVP server.

[VarnieTsk]

PvP has no real place on a PvE server (outside of maybe specific PvP zone), as you've said yourself.

 

This would be an easy fix, and would complete fix any possible expliots on PvE servers as well as helping PvP server populations.

 

Win:win for all.

 

 

 

 

 

It still would be in zone specified for PvP, and no where else.

 

Why would you want a PvE flag anywhere else on a PvE server anyway?

 

I agree with you, but again, I doubt very much they'll ever do that. This game has turned out to be very much PvP-centric. Anything that would in any way hinder or inconvenience the pvp community will not happen. Heck, they've already got three quarters of this game as it is, and from all the screaming I see on the boards they feel stepped on because they don't have it all.

 

disclaimer: Those comments are not aimed at any individuals. I realize that individuals vary. They are aimed at a group as a whole.

[VorpalK]

So what would you conclude from that? WAI apparently. Not saying I agree with it but the deafening silence seems pretty clear.

 

I won't assume that without a direct statement YET. But if that becomes the answer, or we have to assume it is because we go ANOTHER month, the yea, We'll have to assume WAI, and I along with many others will quit.

 

And never purchase a Bioware game again.

Edited January 26, 2012 by VorpalK

[EternalFinality]

I am not speculating. Let me state it again. Bioware specifically states that PvP on PvE servers must be consensual. You can find this description on any PvE server on the server selection screen.

 

Unless you can explain how someone inadvertently or intentionally getting hit by an AoE you fired at a PvE mob, especially if said person was stealthed and unable to be seen, constitutes "consent," I would be glad to hear it.

 

It is not speculation. They have stated that PvP on a PvE server is consensual. Being dragged into PvP by a flawed targeting mechanic is not consensual by any definition.

 

Even if that were not the case, someone earlier reported that someone got a 24 hour ban for exploiting this mechanic. That is pretty clearly a statement of intent on Bioware's part.

 

It obviously depends on their definition of consensual. For example, attacking another player indicates that you wish to engage in PvP. If you use an attack while targeting another player, you become flagged for PvP and the attack goes through.

 

Just because you claim you didn't "want" to attack them doesn't mean that you didn't do it. Someone can make a post saying "I accidentally clicked on someone and attacked them, but I didn't want to participate in PvP! You should only be able to attack other players when you manually set your PvP flag!!!!"

 

This is the same, just for AOE attacks. You choose to use an AOE attack with another player in the radius - you chose to participate in PvP. Complain about stealth players all you want, it's the same thing.

 

And thus, Bioware never lied. The description on the server matches reality.

[VarnieTsk]

Griefing? C'mon son.

 

Said it before, and I'll likely have to say it five million more times because your sort even tried pulling this kind of whingery in EvE - a game which is pretty much the epitome of PvP; "PvE" does not translate to "cannot be PvP'd, ever, for any reason, unless potential opponent first fills out form G2456165(Permission to Initiate Hostilities), in triplicate, and files it at Bioware's HQ personally".

 

The OP was in an area which permits members of both factions. They knew this at the time. Anyone who has played an MMO in the last decade is aware of how flagging mechanics work. The game should not play for you, and expecting players to possess a modicum of situational awareness is not unreasonable.

 

You met an idiot, you fell for his ruse, you payed a few K in repairs and went right back to doing the same thing you were before in the same spot. It's not a big deal, and in attempting to make it into one, you could very well **** up the entire PvP mechanics system, when this is an evident case of PEBKAC.

 

And you have obviously glossed right past all of the relevent posts on this subject and the rebuttals to your arguments that "your sort" just can't seem to understand.

 

I'll repeat the one word that keeps re-occuring here, STEALTHED. Did you see that?

 

So tell me, do you have a vested interest in this mechanic NOT being changed? Would it impact your gameplay and ruin your gaming experience? No? Didn't think so.

 

All your post does is express your opinion that everyone's feelings on this are irrelevant. But you've not given one good reason why this is a game mechanic that SHOULD be in the game. Do you have one? Tell me how this benefits the gaming experience of anyone but the griefers?

[Sotaudi]

I liked the part when you assumed that I gank people who don't want to participate in PvP. Which I don't. It's always an "us vs them" to you, isn't it?

 

I am not the one arguing against an obvious flaw being fixed. This is a PvE server. People roll on a PvE server to avoid PvP, or, at least, engage in it only on a purely voluntary basis. The description of the rules set on every PvE server on the character select screen clearly states that PvP on a PvE server is consensual.

 

Either way, this is not an "us vs. them" issue. I have no problem with PvP on a PvP server. I have no problem with PvP on a PvE server. In fact, while I have not done so here yet, I have dabbled in PvP on PvE servers in every MMO I have played except for EQ2 whose server rules sets only allowed for PvP on PvP servers.

 

What I am against is unconsensual PvP in any way, shape, or form. I do not play $15/month plus the cost of the game in order to be someone else's content. I do not wish to be forced to PvP simply because someone else decided they wanted to PvP. What I am against is people like you arguing against reasonable changes to keep people from being dragged into PvP especially when the rules set says that PvP on a PvE server is consensual.

 

As to the assumption, I am not the one arguing that the mechanic does not need to change despite the fact that people not only can, but actually are, exploiting this mechanic to drag people into PvP without their consent. I am not the one arguing against a simple. reasonable fix that is in other games to allow people to choose whether they wish to be autoflagged, justifying that objection, ironically, because some other games don't have it.

 

Given that, there is only one reasonable explanation I can see for why someone would wish a mechanic that allows people to be dragged into PvP without consent to remain in place and oppose an option being added to allow people to choose whether or not they want to be autoflagged to prevent that mechanic from affecting them. That reason would be so that you can, yourself, exploit that mechanic to drag people into involuntary PvP, or, at least, so you would have the option to exploit it if you wanted.

 

If you have a different, reasonable explanation, I would be glad to hear it. Convince me. I would love to apologize for the assumption.

[racsofp]

I see some people are still trying very hard to defend their ability to trick people into fighting on a PVE server rather than just join a PVP server.

 

Hopefully Bioware gets this sorted out for the PVE'ers who have zero interest in PVP at all.

[EternalFinality]

I see some people are still trying very hard to defend their ability to trick people into fighting on a PVE server rather than just join a PVP server.

 

Hopefully Bioware gets this sorted out for the PVE'ers who have zero interest in PVP at all.

 

Next up -

 

"Someone on the other faction was standing too close to the enemies and I clicked on them by mistake and attacked them! Bioware needs to prevent people from tricking me into fighting them! I DID NOT CONSENT!"

[Kfab]

When the high level player can just repeat the process and grief him again.

 

It'd be one thing if this was a same level guy doing it, but a level 50? Griefing on Nar Shaddaa? That loser should be banned just for being so ***** as to go grief lowbies.

 

Stop using AOE.

 

I thought you were saying he was somehow flagging you by tagging the mob first, but if you're just blindly using AOE around a flagged enemy, then it's your own damn fault.

 

Uh, so since I'm a BH and AoE is what I usually use on groups of mobs and some lvl 50 flagged player that was stealthed or came up from behind causes me to flag for PvP, it's my own fault? Really? I'll say this again. . . . Keep your ganking/non-consentual PvP outta my PvE server. That's all I'm asking. It's simple.

 

Of course, if this is working as intended, I'd like to know that too. This way I can decide if it's worth sticking around or taking my $15 elsewhere.

[VelVenturi]

Of course, if this is working as intended, I'd like to know that too. This way I can decide if it's worth sticking around or taking my $15 elsewhere.

 

Amen.

[racsofp]

Next up -

 

"Someone on the other faction was standing too close to the enemies and I clicked on them by mistake and attacked them! Bioware needs to prevent people from tricking me into fighting them! I DID NOT CONSENT!"

Just like I said. It's almost like you showed up on cue.

[VorpalK]

Just like I said. It's almost like you showed up on cue.

 

if you had to flag via typing /pvp to engage in combat against the other faction, this wouldn't be an issue.

[VarnieTsk]

It obviously depends on their definition of consensual. For example, attacking another player indicates that you wish to engage in PvP. If you use an attack while targeting another player, you become flagged for PvP and the attack goes through.

 

Just because you claim you didn't "want" to attack them doesn't mean that you didn't do it. Someone can make a post saying "I accidentally clicked on someone and attacked them, but I didn't want to participate in PvP! You should only be able to attack other players when you manually set your PvP flag!!!!"

 

This is the same, just for AOE attacks. You choose to use an AOE attack with another player in the radius - you chose to participate in PvP. Complain about stealth players all you want, it's the same thing.

 

And thus, Bioware never lied. The description on the server matches reality.

 

Incorrect. Trying to lawyer about peoples actions and justify them by nitpicking the possible interpretation or misinterpretation of intentions, doesn't change the facts. You're deliberately trying to derail the argument away from the issue by adding interpretations of intentions, etc.

 

It's all irrelevent. The issue is that this game mechanic, whereby a player can be flagged against their wishes, needs to be changed. Period. And if Bioware chooses not to change it, then those who do not wish to play a game with this mechanic will simply leave and play something else.

 

Simple.

[VarnieTsk]

Next up -

 

"Someone on the other faction was standing too close to the enemies and I clicked on them by mistake and attacked them! Bioware needs to prevent people from tricking me into fighting them! I DID NOT CONSENT!"

 

Again. Irrelevent. Maybe someone would, maybe they wouldn't. Irrelevent to the issue at hand. Doesn't mean that anyone with any sense would be supporting that particular complaint. Doesn't mean this game mechanic isn't a problem. Doesn't mean the game mechanic shouldn't be changed.

[Hajizan]

Griefing? C'mon son.

 

Said it before, and I'll likely have to say it five million more times because your sort even tried pulling this kind of whingery in EvE - a game which is pretty much the epitome of PvP; "PvE" does not translate to "cannot be PvP'd, ever, for any reason, unless potential opponent first fills out form G2456165(Permission to Initiate Hostilities), in triplicate, and files it at Bioware's HQ personally".

 

The OP was in an area which permits members of both factions. They knew this at the time. Anyone who has played an MMO in the last decade is aware of how flagging mechanics work. The game should not play for you, and expecting players to possess a modicum of situational awareness is not unreasonable.

 

You met an idiot, you fell for his ruse, you payed a few K in repairs and went right back to doing the same thing you were before in the same spot. It's not a big deal, and in attempting to make it into one, you could very well **** up the entire PvP mechanics system, when this is an evident case of PEBKAC.

 

LOL, Then why are there PVE servers? This really needs to be fixed, no reason that a STEALTHED character should be able to exploit game coding to force unwilling people into pvp.

[EternalFinality]

Incorrect. Trying to lawyer about peoples actions and justify them by nitpicking the possible interpretation or misinterpretation of intentions, doesn't change the facts. You're deliberately trying to derail the argument away from the issue by adding interpretations of intentions, etc.

 

It's all irrelevent. The issue is that this game mechanic, whereby a player can be flagged against their wishes, needs to be changed. Period. And if Bioware chooses not to change it, then those who do not wish to play a game with this mechanic will simply leave and play something else.

 

Simple.

 

You can't wave this away. If you accidentally click on an enemy and attack them, that would also be considered "flagged against their wishes."

 

Do you want that "fixed" too?

[VarnieTsk]

I see some people are still trying very hard to defend their ability to trick people into fighting on a PVE server rather than just join a PVP server.

 

Hopefully Bioware gets this sorted out for the PVE'ers who have zero interest in PVP at all.

 

Yup. I suppose you do have to give them credit for tenacity though.