Dual Spec: Let's Talk about it.

[Avrose]

Since when is this thread about AC's? We are talking about changing specs within an AC. I stand by my previous assertion: If I have a level 50 merc that is currently DPS specced, it's pretty absurd that I'd be forced to level another merc to 50 if I want to be able to heal without having to constantly respec. Having only one option is the opposite of a choice. Choosing between the only action available and taking no action at all isn't really a choice.

 

AC is another class, Completely different methods and system. So they share spells GG. So do Hunters and Warriors back in wow with Hamstring and Wing Clip respectively but that doesn't mean you get to switch between the two.

[Kozzmozz]

Title says it all.

What do you think the pros/cons of such a system would be?

 

I for one, am not having too much fun, spending 100k everytime I want to switch from PvP to PvE spec. I'm being carroted into playing in one style of play, yet the game has many to offer.

 

roll a pvp character , problem solved. If everyone can respec to what it wants, then why even implement classes? Wheres the incentive in choosing a playstyle if you can just choose at the end what type your character must be? Or am i seeing it wrong here?

[Dasthug]

AC is another class, Completely different methods and system. So they share spells GG. So do Hunters and Warriors back in wow with Hamstring and Wing Clip respectively but that doesn't mean you get to switch between the two.

 

...ok? what does that have to do with my post that you quoted? I am not advocating swapping AC's at all.

[zootzoot]

^ Man, I completely agree with you

 

Wow...so if I want to be a DPS Operative you're saying I can play the IA story again and it will be different? LMAO go away dude.

 

Alts is NOT the answer since many of us are attached to our toon and consider the sped to be amorphous. Our choice was picking the AC.

[sskinzz]

roll a pvp character , problem solved. If everyone can respec to what it wants, then why even implement classes? Wheres the incentive in choosing a playstyle if you can just choose at the end what type your character must be? Or am i seeing it wrong here?

 

these wow brats are fine with the system in place.. they all agree they should have to pay credits and all that - i think the problem that they have is having to travel back and forth

[invispoet]

But then we are talking about should all content be the same difficulty for everyone while giving same rewards?

 

I didnt say it makes everything easier, I said it causes less downtime. This is the time those 15 people are sitting there doing NOTHING while waiting for you to respec. It makes nothing easier. All it does is take out the waiting time.

 

And on B i do disagree.

only thing that it was need in WoW was in TBC and LOCK's issue that was it

 

But every player and his grandma seems to have come to there on these forums...............

 

I would address this if i could find a coherent thought in the sentence (fragments)

 

 

And yes i do agree that it is a convinience having dual specc.

 

But aswell when you give the choice on removing all the weakness you are intrested in i do think is wrong .

 

You dont remove your weakeness. You move them around. So now, instead of being able to heal effectively, i do more damage. Instead of doing more damage, I do less damage, but am more mobile. Dual speccing doesnt change anything here, as you can ALREADY go to the trainer and respec.

 

Example from the only game with dual specc.

 

Honestly, you lose almost all credibility right here, because you apparently think Warcraft is the only game that uses dual specs. You're about 4 years behind the times, champ.

 

 

Mages/dps

 

most in my guild didnt have pvp/pve specc instead mages/Dps had single/aoe specc

Mt had actally 2 tanks specc

most healers had 2 pve healing speccs main/raid

 

And we switched between them

 

That's because you were in a PvE guild. There are some people that play pve, some that prefer pvp, and some that play both. Dual spec gives ALL of these players more options, and hurts NONE of them in any way.

 

 

But if that aint a negative thing towards someone that cant or want DS i dont know what is

 

Sentence fragment and unintelligble english aside, how is this a negative? They choose to have 2 specs, they choose WHAT those 2 specs are used for, and then the entire group gets stronger because of it. Once again, EVERYONE benefits.

 

No, you can CHOOSE to roll a new class if the one you have isn't getting it done for you. I have no sympathy for someone who got to 50 and then started whining about their AC.

 

You're confusing Class with Specs. No one is asking to be able to change Advanced Classes. We are talking about the ability to change from one spec (example: Bodyguard Mercenary) to another (Arsenal DPS Mercenary) with less downtime for our guild/party/raid members.

[BlackLotus]

I'm against the idea of dual spec because now everyone will be the same.

 

All Jedi sage will be Healer-DPS

all jedi shadow will be Tank-DPS

 

what if i want to be a healer? and people want me to do DPS? I will be kicked out because some know it all knows what is best for the group.

 

what the point of the advance classes if you allow dual-spec?

 

there is no pros in dual spec. unless each class has access to 6 different trees

[Dasthug]

I'm against the idea of dual spec because now everyone will be the same.

 

All Jedi sage will be Healer-DPS

all jedi shadow will be Tank-DPS

 

what if i want to be a healer? and people want me to do DPS? I will be kicked out because some know it all knows what is best for the group.

 

what the point of the advance classes if you allow dual-spec?

 

there is no pros in dual spec. unless each class has access to 6 different trees

 

 

Patently untrue. I'd actually venture to say that the MAJORITY of people would have 2 different DPS specs (raid/pvp, open world/groups, etc) if dual-spec was added. People aren't going to magically decide they like healing or tanking after already realizing they don't like those roles if dual-spec is added.

[invispoet]

so basically, your saying your perfectly fine paying the fee's for respec and the system that is in place is perfectly fine, your only complaint is the travel time?

 

if thats the case, get your **** together, do a little planning and know what role your going to spec ahead of time so that your prepared... that way 3/7/15 arent waiting on you.

 

You can't predict everything. If for some reason, a guild's tank or healer can't make it (say their wife got hit by a car), clearly this person cannot raid, as they have more important things to deal with.

 

The rest of the guild, while obviously wishing the guy (and his wife) well, STILL wants to be able to raid. Real Life happens. All dual spec does is make it so it doesnt take 20 minutes to travel there and back again.

 

You're assuming everyone knows everything, and that **** doesnt happen. Hell, maybe something happens and your 16 man guild has to do 8 mans this week, now you might have to fulfill a role you never anticipated on.

 

The whole idea of dual spec is to allow groups that for some reason or another (usually real life emergencies) don't punish the rest of the group so harshly.

[DarthTenor]

I'm guessing you're not 50, or not raiding yet, because there IS endgame, three whole tiers of it, not even including level 50 nomral flashpoints AND level 50 hard mode flashpoints.

 

 

 

So what you're saying is that I should have to level the same exact class twice, go through the same exact story twice, and gear up twice, for me to play my ONE character to it's maximum effectiveness.

 

I'm not asking to be able to tank as a powertech and then heal as a mercenary. I'm asking to be able to heal when i'm raiding (on my mercenary) and be able to dps, or use another healing spec, when pvping or questing. There is no jekyll/hyde syndrom here. The advanced classes are purposefully split so that EVERYONE has at least one dps tree, and MOST classes have a tank or healer tree (but not both). Restricting people to one role at all times is just flat out silly, people have less fun, groups are harder to put together, and people waste more time sitting around looking for groups in general.

 

Being able to have a second spec doesnt automatically turn you into an overpowered killing machine. You still have to gear up for it, practice with it, and improve at it. Good players will be good at their 2nd spec in time. Bad players will not.

 

It doesnt change anything in the current game system except waiting times.

 

 

i haven't reached level 50 nor even half way there. I'm enjoying playing all the AC's at different levels.

 

So what's with this PVP/PVE gear that I keep seeing. Do the stat really different from a DPS mercenary and a healing Merc? AIM is their primary stat for damage and healing I think. I could be wrong.

 

regardless I like what you said Being able to both healing or DPS Merc would be welcomed rather than making another merc when you have an option to make another BH as a powertech.

 

 

Yeah yeah make a commando it's the same thing!!!! I beg to differ!!! Aesthetically they 'feel' different and that's a big plus. I'm playing a huardian and juggernaut as well and I can't seem to describe how 'Different' they 'feel' maybe it's the animations/gear? oh yeah .....story. Still though.

 

a group I was with asked what spec I was and I said Rage . Why wouldn't my Jugg be the tank? Because I choose not to be while leveling. In that case I would have to go all the way back to the fleet, re-spec, go all the way back, do the group quest, go back to the fleet, re-spec again. It's a time and credit sink.

 

I'm not lazy I just want to have time to enjoy the game rather than doing the time sink for re-sepcs. It's definitely convenient if Dual spec was available.

[invispoet]

I'm against the idea of dual spec because now everyone will be the same.

 

All Jedi sage will be Healer-DPS

all jedi shadow will be Tank-DPS

 

what if i want to be a healer? and people want me to do DPS? I will be kicked out because some know it all knows what is best for the group.

 

what the point of the advance classes if you allow dual-spec?

 

there is no pros in dual spec. unless each class has access to 6 different trees

 

Sage DPS: Maximum damage

Sage DPS: Maximum survivability

Shadow DPS: Maximum damage

Shadow DPS: Maximum survivability

Shadow Tank: Maximum Mitigation

Shadow DPS: Maximum Utility

Guardian DPS: maximum Burst

Guardian DPS Maximum sustained (dots)

Guardian DPS: Maximum Surivability/utility

Guardian Tank: maximum Mitigation

Guardian Tank: Maximum utility

Sentinal DPS: 6 different specs, due to 3 different trees each with a survivability and

damage option

 

How exactly will everyone be the same?

[sskinzz]

You can't predict everything. If for some reason, a guild's tank or healer can't make it (say their wife got hit by a car), clearly this person cannot raid, as they have more important things to deal with.

 

The rest of the guild, while obviously wishing the guy (and his wife) well, STILL wants to be able to raid. Real Life happens. All dual spec does is make it so it doesnt take 20 minutes to travel there and back again.

 

You're assuming everyone knows everything, and that **** doesnt happen. Hell, maybe something happens and your 16 man guild has to do 8 mans this week, now you might have to fulfill a role you never anticipated on.

 

The whole idea of dual spec is to allow groups that for some reason or another (usually real life emergencies) don't punish the rest of the group so harshly.

 

im sorry, but changing the rules of a game (one that dumb down the game and diminish EVERYONES specialization) in case someones wife gets hit by a car (example), or in case someone gets grounded from the computer for the night , is simply ludicrous.

 

^^^^ this is called **** happens, and im sure your guildies will understand that bob's dog died, and will wait for you to make the appropriate changes.

Edited January 10, 2012 by sskinzz

[Dasthug]

one that dumb down the game and diminish EVERYONES specialization)

 

Extreme leap of logic.

[DarthTenor]

Sage DPS: Maximum damage

Sage DPS: Maximum survivability

Shadow DPS: Maximum damage

Shadow DPS: Maximum survivability

Shadow Tank: Maximum Mitigation

Shadow DPS: Maximum Utility

Guardian DPS: maximum Burst

Guardian DPS Maximum sustained (dots)

Guardian DPS: Maximum Surivability/utility

Guardian Tank: maximum Mitigation

Guardian Tank: Maximum utility

Sentinal DPS: 6 different specs, due to 3 different trees each with a survivability and

damage option

 

How exactly will everyone be the same?

 

Sentinel 6 different specs? Assuming that you are putting a certain amount of points into a particular tree rather than putting the majority of the points in 1 tree right?

 

AGain don't have character high enough to support those specs. Still interesting thought.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

There are no downsides to allowing dual speccing, and numerous upsides.

 

Proof it? Or are you actually just saying I want it 'cause I want it?

 

I've seen nothing in this thread to show there are NO downsides to allowing Dual Spec. This threads existence, and the fact that it generates so much hate, are proof that there are downsides.

 

The only upside I've seen is that it leaves more money on my character. Which means I can spend more on... what? The best gear is instance drops or token purchased. I can take Biochem to make my own stims. I only have to train skills once, even vehicles.

 

One players upside is another players broken economy.

 

Will this game be better without any money sinks at all? Vehicles and gear are not money sinks at the moment, They are either one time purchases or token purchases. Taxis and fuel costs are as cheap as free at high levels. How does taking the only real money sink out of the game make the game better?

 

I'm not trying to be hostile here. I'm saying make an argument that actually shows how the game can be improved overall by adding this feature. Then this thread might actually get somewhere instead of spinning it's heels on "I want it" and "I don't" posts.

 

I would use Dual Spec. But I'm not so naive as to think that everyone will be happy and there will be no negative consequences.

 

I would be arguing in favor of Dual Spec except I can't think of, and haven't read, any convincing arguments for it other than it would be more convenient for a certain play style. I don't want to go down that road because then you just open it up to "things are convenient for this play style, so make it more convenient for that other play style".

 

If Dual Spec is added, it will make things more convenient and I'll use it. If free epics are added, it will make things more convenient and I'll use them. If free crafting materials are added, it will make things more convenient and I'll use them.

 

I don't want "It's more convenient" to be the direction the game goes. We need a better argument.

[invispoet]

i haven't reached level 50 nor even half way there. I'm enjoying playing all the AC's at different levels.

 

So what's with this PVP/PVE gear that I keep seeing. Do the stat really different from a DPS mercenary and a healing Merc? AIM is their primary stat for damage and healing I think. I could be wrong.

 

All pvp gear has Expertise, which is the pvp stat. Most healers lean towards Power (which makes their heals stronger) and alacrity (which makes their cast times faster)

 

Ranged DPS typically want power, some combination of accuracy/crit/surge (notice none of these 3 is on the tank OR healer list)...alacrity isnt good, but it's probably your least useful stat.

 

Melee dps absolutely HATE alacrity, as it only affects 1-3 of their abilities. They want power, and some combinatino of cirt/surge/accuracy (again, NOT on the healer or tank lists)

 

Tanks vary a bit. If you want maximum survivability, you want defense rating, shield rating, and shield absorb. Power, Crit, and Surge all increase your damage done, and Alacrity is almost useless.

 

regardless I like what you said Being able to both healing or DPS Merc would be welcomed rather than making another merc when you have an option to make another BH as a powertech.

 

Yeah yeah make a commando it's the same thing!!!! I beg to differ!!! Aesthetically they 'feel' different and that's a big plus. I'm playing a huardian and juggernaut as well and I can't seem to describe how 'Different' they 'feel' maybe it's the animations/gear? oh yeah .....story. Still though.

 

My main is a Bounty hunter healer, and I am have been casually a vanguard (republic's version of Powertech), and loving it. I have not problem rolling alts, and i will probably end up with 3-4 50s, I just dont want ot have to level the same one twice just to be effective in multiple aspects of gameplay.

 

a group I was with asked what spec I was and I said Rage . Why wouldn't my Jugg be the tank? Because I choose not to be while leveling. In that case I would have to go all the way back to the fleet, re-spec, go all the way back, do the group quest, go back to the fleet, re-spec again. It's a time and credit sink.

 

My Jedi Guardian is in the same boat. I level as dps, and when I need to tank for a heroic 2/4, I go into my tank stance, put on a shield, guard the dps/healer, and do my tank thing. I like tanking, but without a healer companion (knights dont get one till late 30s) it's too slow/cumbersome.

 

I'm not lazy I just want to have time to enjoy the game rather than doing the time sink for re-sepcs. It's definitely convenient if Dual spec was available.

 

Any amount of time sink is better than having to level the SAME class to max level again.

Edited January 10, 2012 by invispoet

[rcnay]

So the only thing you care about keeping is the fee to respec? Did I read that correctly?

 

Because if so... Rich players already have dual spec... Poor players do not tho.

 

Yes, I want them to keep the fee. Why is dual spec important? So you can have a spec for PvP and PvE? Well why stop at dual? Give me a quad spec...so I can PvE heal and dps, plus PvP heal and dps (maybe quad so I can have a spec to screw around with while their at it).

 

It's just a bunch of nonsense and where does it stop? No one is forcing you to respec, many have done the grind before doin dailies as heal or tank spec'd. I see respecs as a luxury, not a necessity.

 

"Poor players can get off their butt do dailies, professions and/or flashpoint grind to earn credits. If they are poor is is their own fault.

[Varghjerta]

 

 

Sentence fragment and unintelligble english aside, how is this a negative? They choose to have 2 specs, they choose WHAT those 2 specs are used for, and then the entire group gets stronger because of it. Once again, EVERYONE benefits.

 

So then when the group/raid get to choose between normal and stronger it will take the weaker one ?

 

People are saying that if you dont like it dont use it....

 

But the way you are adressing it the "use" is already implemented.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Varghjerta

[sskinzz]

Proof it? Or are you actually just saying I want it 'cause I want it?

 

I've seen nothing in this thread to show there are NO downsides to allowing Dual Spec. This threads existence, and the fact that it generates so much hate, are proof that there are downsides.

 

The only upside I've seen is that it leaves more money on my character. Which means I can spend more on... what? The best gear is instance drops or token purchased. I can take Biochem to make my own stims. I only have to train skills once, even vehicles.

 

One players upside is another players broken economy.

 

Will this game be better without any money sinks at all? Vehicles and gear are not money sinks at the moment, They are either one time purchases or token purchases. Taxis and fuel costs are as cheap as free at high levels. How does taking the only real money sink out of the game make the game better?

 

I'm not trying to be hostile here. I'm saying make an argument that actually shows how the game can be improved overall by adding this feature. Then this thread might actually get somewhere instead of spinning it's heels on "I want it" and "I don't" posts.

 

I would use Dual Spec. But I'm not so naive as to think that everyone will be happy and there will be no negative consequences.

 

I would be arguing in favor of Dual Spec except I can't think of, and haven't read, any convincing arguments for it other than it would be more convenient for a certain play style. I don't want to go down that road because then you just open it up to "things are convenient for this play style, so make it more convenient for that other play style".

 

If Dual Spec is added, it will make things more convenient and I'll use it. If free epics are added, it will make things more convenient and I'll use them. If free crafting materials are added, it will make things more convenient and I'll use them.

 

I don't want "It's more convenient" to be the direction the game goes. We need a better argument.

 

^^^^ completely agree

 

these people just dont understand that some of us dont want the challenge taken out of the game. that some of us like the idea that everyone has a role to fill and that you cant just change it on a whim and spec out to something else.

 

and the fact is, is that you guys that want to be able to respec already can. so what the problem? is it really just the travel time?

[invispoet]

im sorry, but changing the rules of a game (one that dumb down the game and diminish EVERYONES specialization) in case someones wife gets hit by a car (example), or in case someone gets grounded from the computer for the night , is simply ludicrous.

 

THIS right here is the problem. Tell me how adding dual specs will dumb the game down? Do people magically lose 20 points of IQ because Bioware decides to add the option of a 2nd spec? You still have a role to play, just that the role can change from fight to fight (keep in mind, it ALREADY can change from fight to fight, it's just a huge waste of time to do so).

 

You still specialize. It's not like you get dual spec and can all of a sudden do maximum DPS AND HEALS simultaneously.

 

It doesnt diminish player skill. People that are good players will learn their 2nd spec and play it well. people that are NOT good players, will not.

 

I've seen a dozen people tell me how dual spec's will 'ruin the game' and not a SINGLE ONE of them can tell me how it actually affects gameplay in a negative way.

 

^^^^ this is called **** happens, and im sure your guildies will understand that bob's dog died, and will wait for you to make the appropriate changes.

 

I agree, but there's nothing wrong with giving us the option to reduce that wait time, when doing so will not affect the game in ANY negative way.

[Varghjerta]

 

Honestly, you lose almost all credibility right here, because you apparently think Warcraft is the only game that uses dual specs. You're about 4 years behind the times, champ.

 

So then what other game have DUAL SPECC? that is P2P?

Edited January 10, 2012 by Varghjerta

[Dasthug]

So then what other game have DUAL SPECC? that is P2P?

 

Doesn't Rift let you have, like, 5? I could be wrong on that.

[Varghjerta]

Doesn't Rift let you have, like, 5? I could be wrong on that.

 

Yes but that is not dual specc WOW is the only game that have dual specc that is P2P.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Varghjerta

[sskinzz]

THIS right here is the problem. Tell me how adding dual specs will dumb the game down? Do people magically lose 20 points of IQ because Bioware decides to add the option of a 2nd spec? You still have a role to play, just that the role can change from fight to fight (keep in mind, it ALREADY can change from fight to fight, it's just a huge waste of time to do so).

 

You still specialize. It's not like you get dual spec and can all of a sudden do maximum DPS AND HEALS simultaneously.

 

It doesnt diminish player skill. People that are good players will learn their 2nd spec and play it well. people that are NOT good players, will not.

 

I've seen a dozen people tell me how dual spec's will 'ruin the game' and not a SINGLE ONE of them can tell me how it actually affects gameplay in a negative way.

 

 

 

I agree, but there's nothing wrong with giving us the option to reduce that wait time, when doing so will not affect the game in ANY negative way.

 

IT DUMBS THE GAME DOWN (AKA MAKES IT EASIER) BY GIVING PLAYERS 2 DIFFERENT SPECS FOR 1 CHARACTER (WHICH YOU STILL CAN DO RIGHT NOW) - BUT THAT ISNT GOOD ENOUGH. YOU WANT IT FOR FREE (NO CREDITS) AND YOU WANT IT NOW - NO TRAVEL TIME.

 

its the fact that we can already do what your asking for, but you guys are crying that it costs credits and that you have to travel back and forth to do it. GET OVER IT AND QQ.

 

when your out in the world, and you level up - do you cry inside your head that you have to go all the way back to a class trainer to learn your new abilities?

[velocity-x]

Yes but that is not dual specc WOW is the only game that have dual specc and is P2P.

 

Why don't you just say "has to be dual spec, and P2P and called WOW"

 

Rift lets you have way more than dual spec. This is an expected feature.

 

The best you can do is really saying something like "well if you don't like it go play something else derp" or "give it time, it's still new"