Very Disappointed about Vanguard Adv Class

[texn]

Ranged/Melee kombo is OP!

[MidnightFreezer]

It seems like people are ignoring the main issue here. He not only does not want to play a melee character, he also wants to use a gun. Not a portable cannon. I chose Vanguard because I wanted to make a DPS trooper without walking around with artillery in my hands. And it really does use very little of the blaster rifle itself. I still enjoy it but I can very much so imagine people being uphappy that you focus more on using grenades/explosions or melee attacks when you have a perfectly good rifle in your hands. (see also Scoundrel, same issue).

[va_wanderer]

I could see you going "gun" with Vanguard- you'd just have to work around the skills that focus on melee. Assault can get away with it, splashing some points into the bottom of the other two trees.

[TheCosmicMuffet]

The guy wants a choice that's not available. It's not an unreasonable request. Bioware design doesn't need to be white knighted. Games change and get improved based on feedback.

 

If you actually had advice that said he could tank at range and it was a matter of some particular spec and some particular gear, like va_wanderer did, that's more helpful than telling him to get lost or play a melee tank.

 

Don't confuse someone's personal playstyle with complaints about the game. The guy isn't saying 'I hate mmos, please cater to me'. Or 'I want to do 40 man raiding in the space combat sequence minigame'. There's this implicit assumption that someone has to tank on top of the mobs they're tanking which I think is false. An example would be in Warhammer online, there were basically 'melee healers' who would select a tank, and follow them closely. If the healer class can be melee, why can't the tank class be ranged--provided they have mob positioning tools and aggro control? It would be interesting and fun to have tanking expanded--especially since, as a science fantasy MMO, the idea that we end up hitting a big toothed monster with swords instead of drawing enemy fire away from vulnerable companions a la something like Halo seems redundant when you sit it next to warcraft or every fantasy mmo. I like this game in part because it is *not* an exact copy-paste of wow again. Why be dogmatic about what tanking 'looks like'.

 

The fact that the taunt tools are ranged is great. What's missing, really, is ranged targetable aoe, and ranged options that keep our rotation full and efficient when not tanking in something's face. The fact that we have some good melee tools is fine and makes sense. If you want to tank like a champ in melee you can, as people have said, go play a shadow or a guardian. What could be done to differentiate the vanguard a little more?

 

I do like the storm and gut abilities because of how they feel, but I think the class could stand to differentiate itself a little more. Maybe if storm were area target instead of enemy target--so you could quickly move away from your group but still keep your distance from enemies...

 

also, and this is probably a little silly--you carry around that blaster pistol in all the cut scenes, and threaten people with it. Why not incorporate that into short range attacks? A little akimbo action, or offhand shooting.

 

And that's just trooper. The story for bounty hunters is similar, as the op pointed out--and they actually use pistols for the life of their character, I think.

Edited January 10, 2012 by TheCosmicMuffet

[KLGChaos]

The OP wasn't talking about his DPS being low or the Vanguard sucking complete ****. Its about him not wanting to play a melee tank class with a RANGED weapon.

 

Actually, he didn't say anything about it even being a melee tank class. The description doesn't say anything about melee. As a tank, I think melee is fine-- it's easier to keep aggro that way (as the further away you are, the less threat you generate). However, for DPS, I can understand wanting to have the option to play more at range, considering you are using a rifle. Personally, I think it would have been great to have a melee tree (for tanking), a ranged tree and possibly a tree that focuses on mixing and matching melee with ranged, which would be nice in pvp. But even the assault tree has to rely on things like gut, which has nothing to do with the rifle.

 

And if they're going to force you to play Commando if you want to play ranged, they should at least give players the option to use a rifle instead of an assault cannon if they wish, instead of crippling their dps.

 

To get my ranged blaster rifle fix, I'm going to role up an Imperial Sniper.

[TheCosmicMuffet]

Actually, he didn't say anything about it even being a melee tank class.

 

class definition :

...

- Class Role: Tank, Damage

- Weapon: Blaster Rifle

...

I just reach lvl 31 and i have to say that this class is boring as hell (compared to my other chars), when i first saw the description, i never realized that i was rolling on a melee class.

 

I think this is his point is that he played for a while and the class started to grow in a direction he didn't expect.

 

I guess upon rereading it sounds like he might enjoy the assault spec more, but I do think that stock strike and the pulse are short range and pretty important for a majority of the leveling curve. He's at 31, so I can understand him being stuck in a melee-emphasizing class when he'd rather be full assault.

 

I mean, he's probably not the best advocate for his own point of view, but it doesn't make it an invalid idea. The class is much more melee heavy than it looks on paper, at least. People are conflating the tanking role with melee as if it's self evident that tanks have to be close, but I don't think that's true. Especially when many of the game's enemies are ranged-only.

[va_wanderer]

To get my ranged blaster rifle fix, I'm going to role up an Imperial Sniper.

 

Funny how Sgt. Catboy was originally supposed to use a sniper rifle. It'd make those early levels interesting...

 

...and I -think- you really could build something viable without clubbing people pointblank. I'd have some questions on what's going to give you more DPS on the bottom of Defense and Tactics (especially regarding HIB shots), but perhaps something like this?

 

http://www.ign.com/builds/star-wars-the-old-republic?class=vanguard&d=000000000000000003100000000000001000203103232232210320302

 

I'm only a middlin-level Vanguard, folks. But take a look at the build, give me ideas.

[Arsynic]

After reading this thread, I feel a bit disappointed about the Vanguard I just rolled. I thought Troopers were the blaster class and that Commandos with their big armor and big guns were the "tank" spec. Some people logically assume that from just the character concept. I too assumed that the Vanguard was a ranged tank that could close the distance when necessary.

 

Now it seems as if the gun is just an accessory or an "opener".

[TheCosmicMuffet]

Well it's pretty core. It's just that you definitely lean *heavily* on being in melee range sometimes--either because something ran up to you, and now you have to cc it, get in a couple shots, and then open the distance, or because you are at range, and want to snare and run in to land some devastating hits and disrupt their casting or whatever. What it's *not* is an all-the-time-in-melee class OR an all-the-time-at-range class, like a guardian or a gunslinger might be. Or a commando for that matter.

 

I think it's versatile and cool. I would also like to see it be a little *more* versatile to allow players to emphasize range more.

 

Part of it is having to pick between the stance you're going to spec for. Speccing ion but for ranged damage would be an interesting choice--since much of ion's setup is kind of agnostic about the short range abilities--but you have limited options in the other trees about what to improve. Assault synergizes with shield poorly because you get most of your assault improvements by using Plasma cell, and tactics as a secondary tends to push you toward getting up in someone's grill and meleeing them which works well with storm. So 3/4s of the potential specs *really* emphasize melee, and then even assault has mechanics that work best at short range, where you can weave stockstrikes and ion pulses into your rotation of dots. It's about kiting, but it's short range kiting. I mean, assault seems ideal for pvp more than ranged pve.

[Liathan]

I'm ok with the Vanguard being a melee tank, but I don't like it when it comes to DPS. Also, I think that upon becoming a Vanguard Gut should be a core ability. I mean ***, I've got a laser gun and you're telling me that hitting people with the gun is more effective then shooting them with it?

 

My experience in beta with selecting the Vanguard and seeing how drastically my play style changed from when I was a trooper lead me to suggest that when you get to lvl 10 you get a quest where you get to try out the abilities and play styles of the different ACs, but people said that it was dumb because apparently reading about a class should be enough to tell me if I like a class or not.

[harenmacar]

well to OP i hope this helps.....

 

Go for the middle tree on tactics. While your range is between 10-30 meters you are still a heavy kite class. Your harpoon, and cryo are reduced in time so you can bring them to you or keep your distance. Your pulse cannon is also a main attack in this one (up to 150% damage.) Understand that there really isn't a class that is 20+ meters. Though this being the case...

 

Tactics also has high energy cell bonuses for speed and cell regen keeping you at your distance and with cells!

 

assault spec uses HIB (high impact bolt) as its primary damage. Ion Pulse is close range but most classes will try to close gaps. The satchel charge you get does a lot of good aoe damage at a chuckable range. if you needed you have extra points in stock strike for the damage (good kinetic based damage)

[Darpo-]

Glad I've chosen Commando, Vanguard sucks.

[Raggok]

Vanguard is harder to play than Commando. So, yes it does suck for some people.

 

Also, I can't believe this thread is 4 pages long. Anyone who doesn't research the class they choose shouldn't be taken seriously.

[harenmacar]

only 1 page of it is really helpful most people are just flaming the OP

[TheCosmicMuffet]

Also, I can't believe this thread is 4 pages long. Anyone who doesn't research the class they choose shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

That's an unreasonable expectation and still requires the information to be complete and useful. I don't know of many descriptions of characters that really give me a feel for how they'll play as they level or how they'll be at level cap. There are plenty of MMO classes I've played that were *only* fun when they were capped, geared, and participating in raids or large scale pvp premades. The fact that I stuck around to get that far is not a good thing. I could have been having fun with another class, and if the developer of the game wants to *make* the process of getting there more fun, then they should. The way they're going to do that is by hearing feedback from someone who picked up the class in good faith (OP said he read the description, after all), tried it for a while, and had some complaints.

 

I know this is the internet, but please try to remember just because somebody else doesn't like or didn't enjoy something you enjoy--it doesn't mean you are wrong or that your choice is bad.

 

Everyone gets weird and defensive, but there's no point. If a guy doesn't like the class as is--he says, basically, that it doesn't end up playing the way it's described, well, at the very least, it might lead to better descriptions and more information--and wouldn't it suit you just fine if you didn't have to spend so much effort reading up on a class you wanted to play ahead of time--you could just hop in and have fun without all the corollary work? And if none of that happens, so what? It's not like you're any better or worse for enjoying what he didn't like.

 

You're certainly not any smarter for reading web sites/watching videos to treat a game like a job instead of being casual about it and using that time for something you prefer to do. Again--if you prefer to do exactly that and others don't, that's no reflection on you. Or them.

 

Nobody has to be annoyed here.

[obZeNx]

I hate my Powertech (lv 41) which is more or less the equivalent on Empire. The only way to actually help in WZs is to guard someone and shoot the taunt arrow. I kinda just ping people when I hit them, and I too dislike how I am forced into <4m range for my main damaging attack.

[rvhausen]

I enjoy playing my vanguard, but agree that it's a bit off conceptually (especially shield spec, where stock strike takes center stage) . I like to think of vanguards as carrying the blaster equivalent of a shotgun (smuggler scatter gun?), and would prefer more emphasis placed on 10m range attacks.

[Midasear]

 

Originally Posted by Raggok:

""Also, I can't believe this thread is 4 pages long. Anyone who doesn't research the class they choose shouldn't be taken seriously.""

 

That's an unreasonable expectation and still requires the information to be complete and useful.

 

What is unreasonable about expecting people to do 15 minutes or so of research before plowing hours of playtime into a class?

 

The information was right there in the skill trees if one chose to actually look before committing. I certainly figured it out, and I'm not exactly a genius.

 

People who do things without bothering to actually figure out the consequences first are disappointed all the time. Its practically their way of life. What does anyone else gain by listening to them complain?

 

This entire thread could be summarized as:

 

"Vanguard is a melee/short range class. Beware before picking it over Commando or Gunslinger if ranged blaster attacks are your thing."

 

with lots of followup along the lines of "Yeah, that sucks!", "Yeah, and its awesome!" and "Maybe you should try something else." Raggok is right. Four pages really IS more than long enough to get the idea across and exhaust all discussion.

[Thandellon]

As much as those here shouldn't be defensive that a lone poster indicated he wasn't enjoying the class, the lone poster has no real reason to post that the class sucks because of his own subjective perception.

 

To the OP: "That's too bad, try another. We'll struggle along without you."

[origional]

I actually agree with the OP that the reliance on melee for Vanguards (and Operatives/Scoundrels, for that matter) was a big letdown after assuming they were a ranged class.

 

That said, it wasn't big enough to make a post about it.

 

What reliance on melee? I've posted again and again that Vanguard can easily be played at range if you wish to do so.

[kajind]

What reliance on melee? I've posted again and again that Vanguard can easily be played at range if you wish to do so.

 

well in terms of pve dps

 

the assault tree has heavy stock extra stock strike damage, which is more dps then the alternative. then there is ionic accelerator which gives stock strike a 45% chance to refresh high impact bolts, and many other talents that increase stock strikes damage,

 

and in tactics there is gut, the talents that lead out of gut, and many other talents that increase stock strike or gut's damage, gut also being the only way to get a dot on the target with this spec.

 

and then in shield specialist storm, static surge, and static shield to name a few.

 

you can play a sith assasian casting only your ranged abilities, but he is not called a ranged class.

 

im fine with tactics and shield being the way they are, i think they work fine for the class. but having a tree where every ability is ranged except 1 key skill which is melee basically makes the vanguard melee, and if your not playing him melee you probably wont get invited back to that grp cause your damage will be soooo verry low.

 

Edit: i followed this game for a long time, have a lot of fun playing it, but i feel lied to. personally the assault tree could be so much better if they took out its dependence on stock strike. also anyone else see a huge difference between the vanguard and commando's "shared" tree.

Edited January 11, 2012 by kajind

[Myxam]

Vanguard, Advanced class definition :

Unstoppable and utterly fearless, Vanguards are the first and best line of defense in the Republic military.

- Class Role: Tank, Damage

- Weapon: Blaster Rifle

- Armor : Heavy

- Resource: Energy Cells

 

I just reach lvl 31 and i have to say that this class is boring as hell (compared to my other chars), when i first saw the description, i never realized that i was rolling on a melee class.

 

If i wanted to have a melee class i would have picked a jedi/sith Warrior Or Shadow/Assassin, i picked the vanguard because i thought it will be diferent, but all specs are based on melee/10 yard attacks, i dont see the point of having a blaster rifle if you only use it to hit with the butt of it.

 

Low levels Rotations use too much Auto Attack if u want to keep Ammo (I dont know about high lvl, but leveling a class using mainly Auto Attack is not fun).

 

Also low lvl heavy armor gear looks like cloth, wich is very anoying till you reach lvl +20

 

Discuss

 

Well you should have hit the books before rolling it. If you want to know all the classes I'll give you a list.

 

Melee:

Vanguard

Scoundrel

Guardian

Sentinel

Shadow

 

Ranged:

Commando

Gunslinger

Sage

 

And Auto-Attacks are a basic part of -EVERY- Class, some just get better versions of it. Sundering Strike for Guardians is just an upgraded Slash.

 

So, reroll or tough it out, I enjoy the class.

[Zakmonster]

Vanguard Abilties with a range of Melee

 

Stock Strike

Gut (talented)

Blitz

Riot Strike

 

 

Vanguard Abilities with a range of 0-10 metres

 

Ion Pulse

Pulse Cannon (cone AoE)

Explosive Surge (PBAoE)

Fire Pulse (talented)

Energy Blast (talented)

 

 

Vanguard Abilities with a range of 0-30 metres

 

Hammering Shot

Full-Auto

Explosive Round

Sticky Grenade

High Impact Bolt

Assault Plastique (talented)

Storm (talented)

 

 

Out of 16 possible abilities, only 3 use the Blaster Rifle as a melee weapon. 8 use the Blaster Rifle as a ranged weapon. The remainder uses an assortment of grenades and explosives. In short, there are plenty of options for a Vanguard to work purely at range, ignoring the melee only abilities altogether. However, I do believe that the Assault tree should integrate Explosive Round instead of Stock Strike into the talents, to further strengthen the range capabilities.

 

A purely ranged tank (while visually cool) would be pointless and detrimental to the team. A lot of bosses have melee abilities or are purely melee, completely negating the range advantage. Bosses with Targeted AoE abilities will also have a chance of hitting your squishier ranged teammates (i.e. your healer), unless you position yourself away from your ranged teammates, something that is automatically done if and when you engage in melee.

 

Furthermore, the Vanguard isn't a melee class that has some ranged abilities. It is a class that is able to operate efficiently at any distance up to 30 metres and is a class with no dead zone. The Vanguard cannot be kited. The Vanguard is not in trouble when a Sith Marauder gets in his face. A Vanguard is a class that has no weaknesses.

[Ganrax]

Actually its indicated to be tank/damage dealer.... But its dps is lackluster. Imo don't play a vanguard if you dont want to tank or only pvp. As pve dps it definitely leaves something to be desired

 

Vanguard dps is fine if you play it in melee range like you are supposed to. I have grouped with several vanguard dps in hardmodes and they have had no trouble keeping up with my Commando's dps, they just aren't really a ranged class.

 

On the OP's subject yeah it sucks I know, I would much rather use a blaster rifle than an assault cannon so I looked at vanguard in beta but quickly realized it was pretty much a melee class with some ranged capabilities if you need them. In my decision it came to gameplay vs looks and I chose gameplay and am enjoying commando. I still HATE the assault cannon, but at least I can play ranged like I want.

[kajind]

Vanguard Abilties with a range of Melee

 

Stock Strike

Gut (talented)

Blitz

Riot Strike

 

 

Vanguard Abilities with a range of 0-10 metres

 

Ion Pulse

Pulse Cannon (cone AoE)

Explosive Surge (PBAoE)

Fire Pulse (talented)

Energy Blast (talented)

 

 

Vanguard Abilities with a range of 0-30 metres

 

Hammering Shot

Full-Auto

Explosive Round

Sticky Grenade

High Impact Bolt

Assault Plastique (talented)

Storm (talented)

 

 

Out of 16 possible abilities, only 3 use the Blaster Rifle as a melee weapon. 8 use the Blaster Rifle as a ranged weapon. The remainder uses an assortment of grenades and explosives. In short, there are plenty of options for a Vanguard to work purely at range, ignoring the melee only abilities altogether. However, I do believe that the Assault tree should integrate Explosive Round instead of Stock Strike into the talents, to further strengthen the range capabilities.

 

A purely ranged tank (while visually cool) would be pointless and detrimental to the team. A lot of bosses have melee abilities or are purely melee, completely negating the range advantage. Bosses with Targeted AoE abilities will also have a chance of hitting your squishier ranged teammates (i.e. your healer), unless you position yourself away from your ranged teammates, something that is automatically done if and when you engage in melee.

 

Furthermore, the Vanguard isn't a melee class that has some ranged abilities. It is a class that is able to operate efficiently at any distance up to 30 metres and is a class with no dead zone. The Vanguard cannot be kited. The Vanguard is not in trouble when a Sith Marauder gets in his face. A Vanguard is a class that has no weaknesses.

 

im sorry but each tree has heavy benefits from stock strike, and there is no way to go up the talent tree with out picking them up and still be viable. while you are correct and you can sit at range and still do damage, the player that gets up in your face in melee range will do much more. thus playing a purely ranged vanguard is not viable.