Sith Emperor vs Darth Sidious

[Wolfninjajedi]

Hmm... a big mega-thread? I like that idea.

 

Even if done, might not change anything...though certainly would be interesting.

[Aurbere]

Even if done, might not change anything...though certainly would be interesting.

 

If anything, it will be something fun.

[Wolfninjajedi]

If anything, it will be something fun.

 

Quite.

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

Um, how is this even an argument? Vitiate would slaughter sidious with the utmost ease:D

[Beniboybling]

Um, how is this even an argument? Vitiate would slaughter sidious with the utmost ease:D

Keep dreaming pal, keep dreaming.

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

sidious would destroy vitiate, yes I know that. But the idea that the Sith Emperor is but a mediocre combatant is what boggles my mind. He is probably one of the top 5 most powerful jedi/sith, and is probably the 2nd (1st?) greatest master of sith sorcery in the mythos.

[Xakthul]

Its a different immortality, complicated though.

 

Palp's immortality is similar to the immortality of the Emperor's Voice. The consciousness would just pass to another body when the last one was killed.

[khayyinx]

I think it's funny how the Vitiate haters (interestingly also revan haters...) try to impose their OPINION about this matter every time someone post in favor of Vitiate.

 

Well, i believe that if you consider Post ep6 sidious - which is not supported by George Lucas (He said that luke doesn't get married and sidious don't get the clones, the story should end on ep.6) and you guys who looks like the G-Canon inquisition support - then sidious would PROBABLY defeat Vitiate, though not an easy fight.

 

But, considering Sidious Pre ep.6 and mainly in the movies, it's ridiculous to say that sidious would kill vitiate or even survive for that long as a REAL SITH EMPERIRE's emperor as vitiate did. The old guy just got trhown in a pit and died, if he's all powerfull why didn't he flyed or hang on somewhere?

 

The fact is, if you see the movies, it's clear that he wasn't supposed to be powerfull like EU sidious. Sure, he is the more powerfull of all movies, but not that force god the Eu autors made him.

 

So,

Post ep.6 Sidious >= Vitiate

Movie Sidous <<< Vitiate

[Wolfninjajedi]

I think it's funny how the Vitiate haters (interestingly also revan haters...) try to impose their OPINION about this matter every time someone post in favor of Vitiate.

 

Well, i believe that if you consider Post ep6 sidious - which is not supported by George Lucas (He said that luke doesn't get married and sidious don't get the clones, the story should end on ep.6) and you guys who looks like the G-Canon inquisition support - then sidious would PROBABLY defeat Vitiate, though not an easy fight.

 

But, considering Sidious Pre ep.6 and mainly in the movies, it's ridiculous to say that sidious would kill vitiate or even survive for that long as a REAL SITH EMPERIRE's emperor as vitiate did. The old guy just got trhown in a pit and died, if he's all powerfull why didn't he flyed or hang on somewhere?

 

The fact is, if you see the movies, it's clear that he wasn't supposed to be powerfull like EU sidious. Sure, he is the more powerfull of all movies, but not that force god the Eu autors made him.

 

So,

Post ep.6 Sidious >= Vitiate

Movie Sidous <<< Vitiate

 

Except actually Movie Sidious is still superior to Vitiate. You don't even need to take into account post 6 material, taking into account that...that is just complete overkill. Also GL is fine with the EU, it's just not what he himself would have written it is still apart of the Star Wars Universe(until further notice).

[Aurbere]

I think it's funny how the Vitiate haters (interestingly also revan haters...) try to impose their OPINION about this matter every time someone post in favor of Vitiate.

 

Well, i believe that if you consider Post ep6 sidious - which is not supported by George Lucas (He said that luke doesn't get married and sidious don't get the clones, the story should end on ep.6) and you guys who looks like the G-Canon inquisition support - then sidious would PROBABLY defeat Vitiate, though not an easy fight.

 

But, considering Sidious Pre ep.6 and mainly in the movies, it's ridiculous to say that sidious would kill vitiate or even survive for that long as a REAL SITH EMPERIRE's emperor as vitiate did. The old guy just got trhown in a pit and died, if he's all powerfull why didn't he flyed or hang on somewhere?

 

The fact is, if you see the movies, it's clear that he wasn't supposed to be powerfull like EU sidious. Sure, he is the more powerfull of all movies, but not that force god the Eu autors made him.

 

So,

Post ep.6 Sidious >= Vitiate

Movie Sidous <<< Vitiate

 

I find it amusing that people keep pointing out Sidious' first death as if that is something against him.

 

Check this out for some much needed enlightenment.

[LadyKulvax]

There are two universes at work according to Leland Chee, the Saga + the Clone Wars & The Saga + the Clone Wars + the Expanded Universe.

 

You are taking Lucas' statement completely out of context, what he meant to say was in the original ideas he had for beyond Return of the Jedi, none of what is stated happened, in his original treatments, they aren't a part of his original plan for the universe.

He did however create the idea to bring the Emperor back instead of Vader which was the plan of the authors for the Dark Empire series, Lucas replied with the idea that instead of bringing Vader back, they should bring back Emperor Palpatine, he personally sanctioned that idea himself.

 

The Post-ROTJ era is as canon as any other C-canon until one of the big boys either retcons it or something, most likely the Sequel Trilogy completely re-writes the entire era, until then your use of that statement is invalid.

 

But just to humour your idea that Vitiate flat-out defeats the original Palpatine, I will go right ahead and analyse that for you.

 

Movie Sidious:

• Mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and could switch in mid-battle to any other form ambidextrously with complete ease.
  
• Can mask his presence in the Force even in-front of the most powerful Jedi Order in Galactic history, one at 15,000 strong.
  
• Has Force Lightning so powerful that it can bend back the blade of a lightsaber and totally destroy dozens of enemies without harming his own men in the process.
  
• Can use telekinesis easily to launch multiple pods about.
  
• Can raise Force Barriers to defend easily against massive explosions of Force energy as seen when he battles Starkiller.
  
• Can use Battle Meditation that spanned the entire Galactic Empire.
  
• Can mind wipe the entire of Coruscant, over a trillion people, with little effort on his part.
  
• Was a Nexus of Dark Side energy, the only thing that ever came close to this was Darth Nihilus and I say close because whilst a Nexus and a Wound in the Force share similarities they are not the same thing.
  
• Could easily overcome Grand Master Yoda(the canonically most powerful Jedi and warrior of light ever seen until Grand Master Skywalker) in a direct confrontation(confirmed in the ROTS novel).
  
• Had Force Speed so exceptional Darth Maul could not even see him and so fast that Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, two powerful Jedi and talented swordsmasters died before even being able to acknowledge Sidious' attack, Fisto lasted barely seconds longer than they did and he was a complete master of Shii-Cho.
  
• Can use the Force Maelstrom which is basically a way of saying, 'I am a complete master of the Dark Side, come at me bro.' it simultaneously summons a Force Barrier to protect it's user, a Barrier which randomly spits out forks of Force Lightning which are attracted to other Force Users in the area whilst also uses telekinesis to launch any and all objects at the attacking opponent, it's brutally efficient.
  

 

 

And on and on and on..... you get the point.

 

This is not even mentioning the fact that multiple sources state that he is the most powerful Sith of all time, no exceptions, no arguing, simple canonical fact, something George Lucas himself has stated.

 

Now whilst the Sith Emperor is very powerful this is only within one sense, he was the greatest master of Dark Side sorcery and magics ever seen by the Treaty of Coruscant and as stated in the SWTOR Encyclopedia he was the center of the most complex Sith ritual ever devised, however, this was not alone, he had to use the power of 8,000 other Sith Lords and the ritual itself to achieve the power he gained, he could not pull it off with his own power, Sidious however has never needed such help or trinkets.

 

Let us also bring up a comparison of the Sith Emperor:

• Completed the most complex Sith ritual ever(with a LOT of help)
  
• Was the most powerful master of Dark Side magic seen up until the Cold War(Post-GGW).
  
• Had Force Lightning a lot more powerful than Darth Nyriss, according to Jedi Master Revan, whom could not use Tutaminis for long against the Emperor's lightning blasts, his lightning barrages also incapacitated the Hero of Tython accompanied by a team of Jedi Masters.
  
• He could summon illusions to confuse his opponent in combat.
  
• Has been stated to be no warrior and had nothing beyond basic lightsaber skills, he was a scholar not a fighter.
  
• Had mind domination, which however was not permanent and could be resisted and even broken forever, the likes of Revan, Malak, Kira Carsen and more have all done so.
  

 

 

I think both of these characters are pretty boring in my opinion, they both end up being the OMGWTFBQQ levels of power that hold absolutely no interest for me, Palpatine is the only one that did entertain me up until becoming Emperor, then he was just boring up until he became Darth Cthulhu, the Sith Emperor to me is basically just Sidious 2.0 but with an almost comic book level amount of stupid-evil background to him, killing Sith Lords as a teen and god knows what other stupidly Mary Sue stuff to hype him up even more.

 

I will always prefer the more down-to-earth characters, both Sidious and Vitiate have frankly bored the hell out of me, but it is plain as day to me looking at them both that in a fight, the original Palpatine could kill Vitiate probably before Vitiate even saw him move.

 

In a lightsaber duel, it's a ROFLStomp until Vitiate is a sticky mess on the floor.

 

In a Force battle, Palpatine's Force Lightning was so powerful it bent the energy blade of a Lightsaber, that might not sound like very much to a lot of people but that is frankly insane pressure applied there.

 

But that itself was merely signifying the fact that even against Mace Windu the sole master of the ultimate anti-Dark Sider lightsaber form in Vaapad, Sidious was still just too powerful, even a Windu using Sidious' own power against him, Windu still couldn't win.

 

Mind domination? Sidious has a pure cold will that Vitiate is just not going to conquer, his willpower is frankly astonishing.

 

Illusions? Sidious sees right through them and even laughed at them at one point.

 

Sidious would kill Vitiate easily in combat, because Vitiate is just not geared towards combat.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Just to note on that bit Ray, Sidious never fought Galen. All that happened(which Aurbere can clear up if I am mistaken seeing as he has TFU novel, right Aurbere?) was that he was knocked over and then played his "I am weak strike me down!" card to goad him. Aside from that pretty spot on.

[khayyinx]

Well, and there's the inquisition. A bunch of gamers saying something again and again on internet don't make it true.

 

Considering only pre ep.6 sidious, we can only see that he really is powerfull. A lot powerfull, actually, probably the most powerfull force user of his time, since he could handle yoda. But this doesn't mean anything if you compare him to old republic characters. In this game, you can see jedi and sith do stuff a lot more impressive than sidious in the movies.

 

Say it's a overkill is ridiculous. We're talking about a guy that could destroy the entire galaxy(no one else could), live for more than a thousand years ruling a sith empire full of powerfull backstabbing siths and kill members of the dark council like they were ants. No it's not an overkill. I would say sidious is a better lightsaber duelist, but vitiate is clearly more force powerfull.

 

Aurbere, the thread you posted was an failed attempt to prove that sidious' first death was something inevitable even for someone with the power you guys claim him to have. You just stated what we see in the movie, but you failed to explain why someone so powerfull couldn't just: foresee or feel such a strong emotion and react before being caught, force push vader, fly or grab at something (obi wan did this in ep.1).

 

LadyKulvax, most things you posted about sidious could be done by powerfull force users(plagueis?). And i may be wrong, but i think that is things of EU sidious... I agree with you that sidious would probably kill vitiate on lightsaber duel (not a stomp), but in a force duel i don't know.

 

You guys don't even consider the fight. It's a stomp, he lost and there's no way vitiate could win. Posts like this take all your credibility.

[Kawabonga]

Mind rape: What if Sidious IS Vitiate?

[Beniboybling]

I think it's funny how the Vitiate haters (interestingly also revan haters...) try to impose their OPINION about this matter every time someone post in favor of Vitiate.

I was expecting you to come out with something interesting and intelligent that might give us reason for pause, how foolish of me, instead what I'm confronted with is hypocrisy so blatant it makes my eyes bleed.

 

What exactly is contained in the ramblings lumps of text that follow from this? Unsupported opinion. At least the so called "Vitiate hater" are capable of bringing substantial evidence to the table whereas you have none.

[Beniboybling]

Well, and there's the inquisition. A bunch of gamers saying something again and again on internet don't make it true.

Tell me about it, you won't believe the number of people who have come out saying that the Sith Emperor is "obviously more powerful" without a scrap of evidence to support it.

 

Wait what, your talking about us? Oh dear. More hypocrisy.

[Aurbere]

Aurbere, the thread you posted was an failed attempt to prove that sidious' first death was something inevitable even for someone with the power you guys claim him to have. You just stated what we see in the movie, but you failed to explain why someone so powerfull couldn't just: foresee or feel such a strong emotion and react before being caught, force push vader, fly or grab at something (obi wan did this in ep.1).

 

Then you didn't truly understand it.

[Aurbere]

Just to note on that bit Ray, Sidious never fought Galen. All that happened(which Aurbere can clear up if I am mistaken seeing as he has TFU novel, right Aurbere?) was that he was knocked over and then played his "I am weak strike me down!" card to goad him. Aside from that pretty spot on.

 

Yeah.

[sell-dog]

LadyKulvax, most things you posted about sidious could be done by powerfull force users(plagueis?)

 

Plagueis has no real lightsaber feats at the moment so anything she said about Sidious being a saber master and warrior cannot be done by Plagueis. More than half of the things she said could not be done by Plagueis for a couple reasons:

 

1. Sidious is more powerful

2. Sidious had more access to Sith sources/information than anyone else in Galactic History. Think of how many times you've heard the phrase "The Jedi looted Sith artifacts from . . .". When Sidious became Emperor and the Jedi essentially destroyed and no one to guard the Jedi Temple Archives, all that knowledge became Sidious'. Think of how many forgotten techniques and rituals he's learned. Aurbree's signature of Sidious' quote "There is nothing I do not know" is a reference to this unprecedented access. Also, since he's the Emperor, he can seek out any information anywhere at anytime and not in secret because he's the Emperor and he can do whatever he wants. As he is so powerful, anything that he finds, he is able to master. Plagueis had no such advantages for him.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Mind rape: What if Sidious IS Vitiate?

 

He isn't.

[Beniboybling]

You guys don't even consider the fight. It's a stomp, he lost and there's no way vitiate could win. Posts like this take all your credibility.

Actually a fairly solid argument can be made for that.

 

Essentially Sidious is very much geared to 'speed blitzing' is opponent. Just look at what happened to the Jedi Council. Indeed we should consider the following factors:

 

 

1. Sidious can induce a haze of confusion on even powerful opponents and master telepaths such as Tiin.
   
2. Sidious is incredibly skilled at augmenting his attack style with Force speed.
   
3. Sidious can mask his Force presence from even the most powerful of Jedi.
   
4. Sidious is an excellent and dominating lightsaber duelists, while the Sith Emperor's skills are lacking.
   

 

Combined and its more than likely that Sidious temporarily distract the Sith Emperor with a confusion haze, mask himself with the Force making him difficult/impossible to predict and rush the Emperor at blinding speeds. The Sith Emperor will barely have enough time to ignite his lightsaber before Sidious is on top of him attacking in full fury, he won't hold back against an opponent that can possibly kill him, he'll go all out.

 

Now the Sith Emperor likely isn't a very skilled duelist, he was defeated by a lesser Force user in lightsaber combat and didn't even seem to possess a lightsaber when confronted by Revan. I certainly wouldn't say he's more skilled than Kit Fisto, who was overwhelmed by Sidious' attack within seconds. All he's got going for him is raw power, but that will only get him so far against Sidious incredible lightsaber skill. Remembering that when Luke was caught off guard by Sidious he was disarmed within seconds, despite being almost as powerful as him and almost as powerful as the Sith Emperor, heck perhaps more powerful than him.

 

Yet Luke was an absolute master of Djem So and went on to be widely considered the best lightsaber duelist in galactic history, bar none. So who's to say that the Sith Emperor simply won't just be overwhelmed and defeated before he can bring his powers to bare, effectively stomped? I can only think of a few tenuous reasons.

[Kaedusz]

Except actually Movie Sidious is still superior to Vitiate.

 

Yes.

IF you are Sidious' fanboy/movie chars fanboy.

OR you want Sidious to be most powerful because you want your precious little Luke and Anakin's achievements to be worth more.

[Aurbere]

Yes.

IF you are Sidious' fanboy/movie chars fanboy.

OR you want Sidious to be most powerful because you want your precious little Luke and Anakin's achievements to be worth more.

 

Well, there's the "F" word folks. We've seen the "H" word, now we have the "F" word.

 

Curiously, both were posted by Vitiate supporters.

 

Coincidence?

[Kaedusz]

Vitiate supporters is a very liquid term.In terms of real support ,i don't like Vitiate at all.At all.And have mixed feelings toward Sidious.

Now... claiming Vitiate is more powerful is just stating the obvious.Vitiate supporters is too strong a term to be used for these people.

Sidious supporters are not actually Sidious supporters imo.They are old SW concepts and old fixed views supporters on SW things vs the concepts brought by the Bioware part of the SW franchise.Same goes for Revan.

For these people SW will always be about the movies and the Skywalker story.The other stories are just an add on.For me Vader and movies story is just one of many and far from the best one.Imo that's the point of the matter.

[Beniboybling]

Now... claiming Vitiate is more powerful is just stating the obvious.Vitiate supporters is too strong a term to be used for these people.

I'd encourage you to read this thread, and I'd encourage you read all of it - you are in need of some enlightening...