Really Bioware?

[Marcuspasnicus]

Actually, classes with high skill cap have less tools to work with which requires more skill because of the lack of tools at their disposal.. But I understand what you guys are complaining about. The thing that bothers me is the fact people are crying like Jugg is just unusable and completely broken. It's just harder. I understand that juggs have less utiliity. But my entire point is that they are being used in hard modes having no problems holding single target / multiple mob aggro having no problems what so ever so they ARE viable. Just harder.

 

Canoftuna could not have said it any better:

 

"Tanking on a Juggernaut is like trying to dig a 3 foot hole in the mud with your hands. Sure you can do it, but it's messy, it'll take you longer and requires more effort. Or you can go get yourself a nice shovel (Bounty Hunter) and get it dug faster and more efficiently."

 

I should make that my sig.

 

No one is saying we arent viable just that why should we be gimped, it makes no sense. Why would you make a class that the only encouragement to play is "Well it doesnt have all the benefits the other tank classes have so its harder".

 

Yes there are plenty of vids and people are doing it but "you can drive a car with your feet if u wanted to, that dont make it a good idea" -CR

[Noth]

Actually, classes with high skill cap have less tools to work with which requires more skill because of the lack of tools at their disposal.. But I understand what you guys are complaining about. The thing that bothers me is the fact people are crying like Jugg is just unusable and completely broken. It's just harder. I understand that juggs have less utiliity. But my entire point is that they are being used in hard modes having no problems holding single target / multiple mob aggro having no problems what so ever so they ARE viable. Just harder.

 

Canoftuna could not have said it any better:

 

"Tanking on a Juggernaut is like trying to dig a 3 foot hole in the mud with your hands. Sure you can do it, but it's messy, it'll take you longer and requires more effort. Or you can go get yourself a nice shovel (Bounty Hunter) and get it dug faster and more efficiently."

 

I should make that my sig.

 

You have a wierd definition of high skill cap. Perfect example of a high skill cap is Ezreal in League of legends. Has lots and lots of tools but is utterly useless in the hands of a poor player, but magnificent and nearly unstoppable in the hands of a skilled player. Every high skill cap class I have played has had more tools than a faceroll class.

 

Essentially a a class that is hard to play but lacks the tools of the easier to play class will be beaten by the easier to play class if both players skills are equal. That is imbalance. It's never been an issue of the jugg not being able to do content. It's about the fact that the jugg is worse (even by a small margin) that pretty much every class that does it's roles (I do think assassins need a boost as well). Hard to play with no payoff.

[Aniliss]

You have a wierd definition of high skill cap. Perfect example of a high skill cap is Ezreal in League of legends. Has lots and lots of tools but is utterly useless in the hands of a poor player, but magnificent and nearly unstoppable in the hands of a skilled player. Every high skill cap class I have played has had more tools than a faceroll class.

 

Essentially a a class that is hard to play but lacks the tools of the easier to play class will be beaten by the easier to play class if both players skills are equal. That is imbalance. It's never been an issue of the jugg not being able to do content. It's about the fact that the jugg is worse (even by a small margin) that pretty much every class that does it's roles (I do think assassins need a boost as well). Hard to play with no payoff.

 

The more tools you have the easier it is to succeed. Ex: WoW's frost mage: Most tools / utility. Very easy to play. It doesn't require a high skill cap because because of all tools / utility at its disposal. WoW Warrior: Least amount of tools, not alot of utility thus its harder to succeed. How can the class with more tools require a higher skill cap? It's easier because of all the tools at its disposal. Less tools = harder to play = higher skill cap to become successful at the class.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Aniliss

[Tfranco]

Lol unkiteable? there is a perk you can get in vengance tree (idk where or if its deep) that makes u IMMUNE to cc after force charge AND reduces all dmg done by __%. Not to mention chilling scream or w/e its called that does a 50% slow and other forms off CC. Idk how much BH/Trooper need a pull i havent played them enough to know, but Sith warriors are fin with out it.

[Aniliss]

No one is saying we arent viable just that why should we be gimped, it makes no sense. Why would you make a class that the only encouragement to play is "Well it doesnt have all the benefits the other tank classes have so its harder".

 

Yes there are plenty of vids and people are doing it but "you can drive a car with your feet if u wanted to, that dont make it a good idea" -CR

 

My entire and ONLY point is that it's not as bad as people are making it seem as if the class is so broken it can't be useful at all. That's my only point. As far encouragement, it depends on the player. I rolled a BH 1st and it was face roll easy imo. Very fun, but easy. I rerolled a sith jugg even with all the talk about how broke they are. As far as your analogy, it's not a bad idea to roll a sith jugg at all. A better and more accurate analogy would be: You can drive a car on cruise control ( Bounty Hunter) on a clear road or you could drive a car manually in traffic. (Sith Jugg) Good drivers won't crash. Neither is a bad idea. But again, to my point, Jugg is viable and not as bad as everyone makes it seems. They could use some tweaking, but they can still get the job done if played right.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Aniliss

[steinsgate]

The more tools you have the easier it is to succeed. Ex: WoW's frost mage: Most tools / utility. Very easy to play. It doesn't require a high skill cap because because of all tools / utility at its disposal. WoW Warrior: Least amount of tools, not alot of utility thus its harder to succeed. How can the class with more tools require a higher skill cap? It's easier because of all the tools at its disposal. Less tools = harder to play = higher skill cap to become successful at the class.

 

Number of tools has little, if anything, to do with skill cap. I.E. warcraft warriors. Any rank 1 warrior will easily have 1.5x the number of keybinds as another class. More tools. Higher skill cap. At least, they used to be, before the spell reflect etc. nerfs.

[Noth]

The more tools you have the easier it is to succeed. Ex: WoW's frost mage: Most tools / utility. Very easy to play. It doesn't require a high skill cap because because of all tools / utility at its disposal. WoW Warrior: Least amount of tools, not alot of utility thus its harder to succeed. How can the class with more tools require a higher skill cap? It's easier because of all the tools at its disposal. Less tools = harder to play = higher skill cap to become successful at the class.

 

Warrior actually has a ton of tools as well, 3 charges (well 2 now), spammable snare, stuns, knockdowns (they can pretty much stun lock you), spell reflects, heal debuff. Just required more effort to use those tools than what a frost mage needed.

 

Fost mages were easy to play not because of the tools but because of the ease of the tools. Basically they could use 3 skills and CC while doing crap loads of damage. At one point you only needed 1 skill to beat people in pvp.

 

A high skill cap class that has legitimate difficulty has all the tools yet take finesse and timing to use those tools. Jugg the most timing you really need is your interrupt. Otherwise it doesn't take much skill. More skill than a merc or BH yes, but those also perform better with equal skilled players. Having a class gimped just for the sake of difficulty is a very poor design.

[Banivisa]

I rarely heal myself, am using lower quality armor, and have no dps talents. My companion rarely holds threat on anything. I.E., I am tanking most mobs. I am killing mobs far, far faster than I was on my warrior at the same level.

 

I know you're trying to be cute, but you'll have to try a little harder.

 

 

BS so you don't heal yourself have crap gear, no dps and manage to tank and kill faster the a warrior.

 

You know you could have left Hutt by level 9 being level 30 on Hutt isn't something to be proud of.

[Aniliss]

Warrior actually has a ton of tools as well, 3 charges (well 2 now), spammable snare, stuns, knockdowns (they can pretty much stun lock you), spell reflects, heal debuff. Just required more effort to use those tools than what a frost mage needed.

 

Fost mages were easy to play not because of the tools but because of the ease of the tools. Basically they could use 3 skills and CC while doing crap loads of damage. At one point you only needed 1 skill to beat people in pvp.

 

A high skill cap class that has legitimate difficulty has all the tools yet take finesse and timing to use those tools. Jugg the most timing you really need is your interrupt. Otherwise it doesn't take much skill. More skill than a merc or BH yes, but those also perform better with equal skilled players. Having a class gimped just for the sake of difficulty is a very poor design.

 

I don't quite understand your logic.. You say that with Juggs the most timing you need is your interrupt.. so they dont take much skill (given the fact that's wrong, Fear, Force Choke, Force push act as interrupts as well: lets just pretend that was right) Wouldn't you think because they ONLY have that 1 skill to manage it would be more difficult to use effectively because of the lack of tools? Anyways, this is getting no where. You keep bringing up that the class is gimped which is poor design etc.. which I understand. All im saying that it is still viable and it works if played right. There are sith juggs in end game hard mode playing the class effectively with no trouble. They may need fixing, but still viable.

[lussien]

I don't see the problem with Sith Juggs. I rolled a Sith Assassin the first time when it got first released and I didn't like how it's playstyle was like, though the DoT lifesteal was nice, I didn't like where I had to take more damage (I was madness specced ).

 

When I rolled a Sith Juggernaut, there's where I fell in love. I felt like I had enough tools to hold aggro, anymore and I might not have enough slots or remember the keys to press them. Backhand, Smash, Sweeping Slash, Force Scream and Taunt are already enough for me do my role as a -tank-. Yeah I can't kill things as fast and it takes more thought when running a flashpoint or heroic but that's why you're playing with other players. I'd rather mark those that need to be CC'd and charge into the fray, holding aggro while the rest of the team beats the content to dust and that lovely healer keeping you alive while you keep the rest of your team alive.

 

I like the immortal spec, shields, barriers and damage reduction for a few seconds and some of those buffs are stackable (+% defense, reduction in rage costs). I guess it'll take time to manage rage but after going in deeper into the Immortal tree, I nearly ever run out of rage, unless I spam my vicious strike. Lol.

 

In PvP, I had trouble at first, but once you've gotten more skilled, with reasonable gear, armor, defense rating etc etc. Immortal spec can be a beast and you're doing everyone a favor if more or half the enemy team is focusing on you, it lets your other team mates run with the ball and score in Huttball.

 

Now I never played beta and I might get flamed for being ignorant because I don't know the class as much, but so far being a Juggernaut with the current skills and tree, I am enjoying what I have and my role. I don't see why this class is weak at all. >.<

[Aniliss]

Number of tools has little, if anything, to do with skill cap. I.E. warcraft warriors. Any rank 1 warrior will easily have 1.5x the number of keybinds as another class. More tools. Higher skill cap. At least, they used to be, before the spell reflect etc. nerfs.

 

Okay, let me clarify. Not just overall abilities (some classes have an over abundance of useless ones), utility abilities. CC, Interrupts, Stuns etc.

[Bullsith]

Of course some forum pros come with the L2P routine, dunno why, I mean, does it make you feel big and strong? Takes you out of your little sad shell?

 

Fact is, this is a much needed tool for tanking, one we are missing. You think having minuses makes you more skilled? Wake up. It makes no difference, it just shortens your tactics list and it makes you inferior to other tanks. So no one is going to give a **** about how skilled you are because you lack abilities when the time comes to pick a tank that needs those abilities.

[Aniliss]

Of course some forum pros come with the L2P routine, dunno why, I mean, does it make you feel big and strong? Takes you out of your little sad shell?

 

Fact is, this is a much needed tool for tanking, one we are missing. You think having minuses makes you more skilled? Wake up. It makes no difference, it just shortens your tactics list and it makes you inferior to other tanks. So no one is going to give a **** about how skilled you are because you lack abilities when the time comes to pick a tank that needs those abilities.

 

Plan and simple. The class doesn't need force pull. In every MMO, there is always a class that does a role better then the rest during some point in time between patches. We just happen to be on the short end of the stick ability wise. But like i said, sith juggs are tanking hard modes without problems so that's proof this class doesn't "need" force pull. The class is still playable without force pull. Force pull doesn't make / break this class.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Aniliss

[TerraFirmaGuild]

Plan and simple. The class doesn't need force pull. In every MMO, there is always a class that does a role better then the rest during some point in time between patches. We just happen to be on the short end of the stick. The class is still playable without force pull. Force pull doesn't make / break this class.

 

Comment removed - No point.

Edited January 5, 2012 by TerraFirmaGuild

[steinsgate]

 

BS so you don't heal yourself have crap gear, no dps and manage to tank and kill faster the a warrior.

 

You know you could have left Hutt by level 9 being level 30 on Hutt isn't something to be proud of.

 

I didn't say I don't heal myself. I said that everything about leveling as an operative is faster, easier, and less painful than leveling a warrior.

[Revanmug]

The more tools you have the easier it is to succeed. Ex: WoW's frost mage: Most tools / utility. Very easy to play. It doesn't require a high skill cap because because of all tools / utility at its disposal. WoW Warrior: Least amount of tools, not alot of utility thus its harder to succeed. How can the class with more tools require a higher skill cap? It's easier because of all the tools at its disposal. Less tools = harder to play = higher skill cap to become successful at the class.

 

That is the most retard exemple I have ever heard and you know what is worse? It is totally wrong...

You just compare a completly awful range dps spec only awesome in some world pvp, some bgs and 2s because of it's multiple snare, slow and root (dispell say hi?), to a class that:

 

DPS wise: can **** anything in pvp with a healer because of his 2 charges, 1 leap, slow, stun, SW, spell reflect, once upon a time needed mortal strike and holy burst.

 

Tanking wise: be the tank with the most tool(see above). Be incredible in pvp but not exactly the best except on some gimmick mechanic and adds for pve...

 

more tool = easier?! wat? arcane mage say hi!

 

 

I wouldn't call the end of the world yet on the JG/JK class yet but...

Wake the **** up from that lovely dream of yours.

[Bullsith]

Plan and simple. The class doesn't need force pull. In every MMO, there is always a class that does a role better then the rest during some point in time between patches. We just happen to be on the short end of the stick ability wise. But like i said, sith juggs are tanking hard modes without problems so that's proof this class doesn't "need" force pull. The class is still playable without force pull. Force pull doesn't make / break this class.

 

Here's something plain and simple. Class uderperforms next to other tanks. But that's ok right? It takes more skill to play, something no one is gonna give a **** about when the time comes to pick a tank. But hey, someone has to bite the turd, right might as well be jugs.

 

But yeah, grats for trying to cover the obvious problem with pride. We need more people like you if this class is gonna be pulled out of the bottom.

[Aniliss]

Here's something plain and simple. Class uderperforms next to other tanks. But that's ok right? It takes more skill to play, something no one is gonna give a **** about when the time comes to pick a tank. But hey, someone has to bite the turd, right might as well be jugs.

 

But yeah, grats for trying to cover the obvious problem with pride. We need more people like you if this class is gonna be pulled out of the bottom.

 

Who ever said the class under performs? The class is harder because it doesn't abilities that other tank classes do but that has nothing to do with the performance / effectiveness of the tank. They are tanking hard modes just fine. For the last time: All I am saying is that they class is still viable and are effective tanks regardless of the difficulty. This probably wasn't biowares design but people are making it work. They aren't useless and aren't broken to the point to where you cant tank effectively because it's being done. People are complaining about how low Jugg tanking "dps" is compared to Power techs. Dps doesn't matter as long as you hold aggro.

[Bullsith]

Who ever said the class under performs? The class is harder because it doesn't abilities that other tank classes do but that has nothing to do with the performance / effectiveness of the tank. They are tanking hard modes just fine. For the last time: All I am saying is that they class is still viable and are effective tanks regardless of the difficulty. This probably wasn't biowares design but people are making it work. They aren't useless and aren't broken to the point to where you cant tank effectively because it's being done. People are complaining about how low Jugg tanking "dps" is compared to Power techs. Dps doesn't matter as long as you hold aggro.

 

I said it, after enough hardmodes and raid attempts. So yeah, I don't want to play the melee tank with less gap closers than ranged tanks. I want to play a proper melee tank that at least has the same amount of tools given to me.

 

You on the other hand, are going on about how it takes more skill to play. Like I said, no one in ther right mind will care, but yeah, you can wait till that reality comes and kicks your ***.

 

And LMAO at the frost mage vs warrior example. I played a warrior in WoW, in fact I played every tanking class there, but that's not the point, you know what? Warriors were BY NO MEANS hard to play, they were just preffered by poor players, but they had the tools, they just didn't need to use all to win. As far as warrior tanking goes, don't get me started. You just had to pretty much sit there and take it. A skill-cap tank was the blood DK. That was fun active tanking.

[Farisx]

What a load of crap. DK tanking was doable with 2 buttons. Everything else was over the top.

There was nothing that needed skill about DK Tanking.

 

Warrior tanking was somewhat more difficult in classic when there werent AE abilities apart from a useless shout and thunderclap, so you had to tab-sunder and guesstimate how much agro you had on each mob.

 

Otherwise it had alot of situational buttons, but again that was somewhat over the top and maxing out that class. Sitting there and tanking could/can be done with crashing your face on the keyboard somewhere near slam, devastate and HS.

[Farisx]

As for Juggernaut it's somewhat like classic WoW warrior. With the exeption that 70% of the mobs you tank are range and "vastly" spreaded. That can be a problem sometimes.

 

One keypart is to "ignore" normal mobs and don't get too nervous about loosing silver mobs.

Otherwise you have to tab alot and drop 1-2 abilites on mobs too keep agro against heals and occasional AEs.

What you basically can not do, and dont *********** tell me otherwise, is keep agro against AE damage from the start. 2 DDs shoot full damage on different mobs - you loose at least one. That has nothing to do with skill or something - the class simply wont give you that atm. PT and SA might be able to, don't know. Jugger won't.

 

In WoW at least, you traded this for having the best mitigation. Most of the lifetime of WoW other tank classes could not compete with warrior mitigation. You were better at avoiding peaks and less overall damage intake on most mobs, there were exeptions ofc.

For me that was the trade I wanted in WoW and it would be know. I expect it to be somewhat the same, alas there is not enough data yet for me at least to judge, how max level raid equipped tanks perform.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Farisx

[Sointu]

Really, when would force pull be so useful that it actually would be godsend lifesaver? If you think that is the biggest problem.. Well, good for you. Cone effect threat in addition to single target damage on force scream would be much more suitable addition to our arsenal, and it wouldn't be as game breaking in pvp as pull would be.

 

But yes, current hard modes can be cleared with ease as juggernaut, despite what you say. On some packs of trash your group will most likely need to use cc, same with any other tank because even if you get threat from all mobs you're going to take insane amount of damage, even if you pop all your defensive CD's.

[Gruntcruncher]

You want another ability? when our class already is overbloated with abilites its making lfe hard as it is. Not sure how clickers can play the class actualy as they must have to stare constantly at there action bars, baring in mind it is impossible to place all your abilities as a lvl 50 on just the 2 bottom bars. Its bad enough keybinding with this class, i swear i have developed arthritus since playing this class.

 

Although sure, if you like haing to wear out your keyboard and having to hit keys faster than a proffesional pianist, go for it.

 

How about you ask bio nicely if they will change the Ui to be a tad easier to keep an eye on, or maybe combine or drop an ability or two. Better yet ask them to make the retarded useless ones actualy be useful, I'm looking at assault, your ever freindly rage builder but use for damage and threat = slaping your enemy with wet noodles, for one.

 

If you got force pull, you going to sacrifice force leap? You honestly think they would let you have both?

 

Ok, maybe they would, if they did then there going to have to make it so if you force pull your force leap gets put on cd and locked for x time. What you gain with one hand you lose with the other.

[Noth]

If you got force pull, you going to sacrifice force leap? You honestly think they would let you have both?

 

Ok, maybe they would, if they did then there going to have to make it so if you force pull your force leap gets put on cd and locked for x time. What you gain with one hand you lose with the other.

 

They let powertech have both along with ample ranges attacks and better AoE so I fail to see why they wouldn't let us have it and whyit would have to put charge on cooldown on use. It may have to share a cooldown with push, but I'm pretty sure most people would be fine with that.

[Bullsith]

What a load of crap. DK tanking was doable with 2 buttons. Everything else was over the top.

There was nothing that needed skill about DK Tanking.

 

How about you get some info before opening your mouth. Or maybe try one and tank a few bosses in firelands, well that was the hardest raid when I gave up. It was the most skill-based tank seeing how one mistake would screw you over, cause without bloodshield you are prone to two-shotting.