The Expertise stat has to go...

[theadjectivenoun]

there is no warzones in here just good ol huttball, i have yet to see any other warzone besides huttball, can we please have cross server pvp or have retardball removed.

[Greennunu]

To me the main difference is more than just gear and I think expertise should stay. In PvE you raid to get gear to down bosses, you find the guild that fits you and your level of play. Once you beat him you feel accomplished, then maybe you want to set a new record by beaating him fast and thus farm him. Or just get totally geared out to be ready for the next patch/expansion.

 

In PvP, we have no boss, we only have each other to compete for, our goals is to get to the top of everyone. This is more than just a 1v1 mentality, this is a gorup effort and thus the guild you are in is also important. We get gear and continually hone our team play just as the PvEers rehears their strategy. To new players the old players is their "challenge" their goal is to take the top spot. Without the barrier the challenge isn't as challenging.

 

Look at the state od MMOs, raids getting too easy and people quit, sure it gives you that instant gratification for winning the game, but after that it becomes stale. There is nothing to work towards, no new gear to look forward to getting. Refining teamwork is fine, but I need more than a victory screen and **** talking in vent to keep me motivated.

 

Maybe Raids in SWTOR is simply too easy if people can down them and have time to grind out PvP gear, but if thats the case then BW needs to raise the bar, not lower them. Just as a raider don't want newbs entering their playgorund and kick their accomplishments into nothing, PvPers don't want PvEers to walk into their playground and do as they please.

 

I enjoy PvP, and I can say I am fairly skilled, I can recognize the people who are constantly PvPing and those who are in there a few times. Due to switching of servers I haven't gotten a 50 yet, and when I fight them I know which ones have the expertise gear and which ones don't. Though I get frustrated sometimes when I get steam rolled by them, I look forward to the day I get my own set and see, how they fair.

[zPeanutz]

the fair part was going towards raiders. raiders put, in general, much more effort into raiding than most people do in BG'ing. arenas are a different story and not even existent in swtor as of right now. i have shared my pain of raiding for months and not getting the piece of gear i wanted. and thats what made me stop raiding. on the other hand, when i bg, i simply do it to have fun and alot of times either half assing it or even if im trying my hardest and ready to break my keyboard i guarantee that the 15-20 mins in a bg isnt the same as the 4-6 weeks learning raid bosses and strats. if youre unhappy that you're rolling on people who arent level 50 and arent geared as you, i say its not the competition that you're having a problem with.

 

its the fact that you grinded the fkn **** out of a brand new game. i have been literally losing hours of sleep since this game has come out and am still not 50. close, but not. i work, and play swtor as of recently. i havent even gone out with friends to a bar in the last 2 weeks because of this game. sorry bro, you used up your play time too quickly.

 

I completely understand what your saying about time and effort in raids vs warzones. I did raid pretty hardcore in vanilla wow and organizing 40 people and waiting for those 40 people to learn the strat and all get it right at the same time is far more difficult than grinding warzones (rated, and arenas excluded like you mentioned). Maybe someone can come up with a way to make the investment equal, maybe they cant. But my opinion of a PvP stat will remain the same. It's unnecessary to me. Most PvPers seem to be proud of their skill, so get rid of the stat that gives you an edge over those who don't pvp much. You pvp often, they don't, so you should have the experience to win.

 

But im not unhappy, and haven't used up my play time. Im not upset about killing lower level players too easily. When I'm calling the PvP stat a crutch, that's coming from my general experience with all MMO's, I'm not really speaking specifically of SWTOR. I will play it either way. I will continue to be PvP focused either way. Until a more PvP focused MMO comes out. I'm praying for AoC's combat system to be in a future game.

 

Edit: I honestly think, (you may not be included) most people who like the PvP stat, like it because once they acquire a bit of it they can easily roll a majority of people they run into in open world.

Edited January 6, 2012 by zPeanutz

[Abanoth]

I don't want to have to spend 16 hours a day farming just to lose by someone who only plays for forty-five minutes every other day! Keep the stats, how else will I know I'm better than others?

[TrollBerzerker]

I dont understand though why would you expect to be better at a activity then the people who have spent their entire time practicing and getting better at that activity? Say if you were a Basketball player and I was a Football player.. Why would you expect to be on par or better then me in Football just because you decided you enjoyed playing it? Sure you should be allowed to play it but NO sir you are not entitled to be the best in everything without putting the time into becoming the best at said thing.

 

Let me just start this off again by saying I understand the need for PVP stats, just to hopefully avoid having people put words in my mouth again that I think I should be the best at everything and that I think expertise should be removed.

 

The difference between what you just described and MMO gameplay is that it doesn't matter how good I am, I'm still going to suck if I don't have the gear to be competitive. I did not suck at my class in WoW, and I did decently despite not having the best resilience gear available, or even a crew who enjoyed PVP to run with.

 

But I'll use the same analogy. Let's say I really enjoy football and basketball. This isn't me deciding to go from being a major basketball player to a major football player, I'm just a basketball player who enjoys football as well. In real life, I would not go immediately into the major leagues just because I want to play a game of football.

 

This is essentially what happens in MMOs. People who put the time in to get the best gear are people I will unavoidably come into contact with, just because they'll be running the warzones same as me. So I have to sacrifice more of my free time to keep an up-to-date set of gear to be able to enjoy both aspects of the game.

 

Furthermore, like I said, not being able to take my PVE gear into PVP cheapens PVE for me as well. I get a new piece of gear in a raid, oh boy! What can I use it for? Well... running the same damn content again only slightly more efficiently. Yay... that's totally more fun than using it to fight other players.

 

But I also understand that some players don't like raiding and don't want to have to raid just to enjoy the aspect of the game they like more. See? I can dislike something while understanding why it has to exist.

Edited January 6, 2012 by TrollBerzerker

[zPeanutz]

PvP stats not only remove raiders from facerolling PvP, but also safeguards the inevitable spikes in damage, by simply increases damage reduction as time goes along. It ensures classes can competently perform roles like healing, and utilizing their skills efficiently so it doesn't devolve into a Call of Duty style "I saw you first, you're dead" gameplay style.

 

The key to making this successful is by lowering the barrier to entry by allowing players to purchase gear early. So no, I don't think removing PvP stats is a viable solution.

 

Now you make a point that I had not considered. I do like PvP fights to last longer rather than instant death, having no chance to react or counter what your opponent is doing is not much fun.

 

So that's one point in the Expertise is good column for me.

 

I'm too tired to try and think of a counter argument right now or a way to solve that problem without having a PvP stat giving PvPers an edge when they find raiders out in the world (this is coming from a PvPer), im off to bed but you did give me something to think about.

[Condiments]

Now you make a point that I had not considered. I do like PvP fights to last longer rather than instant death, having no chance to react or counter what your opponent is doing is not much fun.

 

So that's one point in the Expertise is good column for me.

 

I'm too tired to try and think of a counter argument right now or a way to solve that problem without having a PvP stat giving PvPers an edge when they find raiders out in the world (this is coming from a PvPer), im off to bed but you did give me something to think about.

 

Anyone who played WoW's endgame understands what I'm talking about. Damage got so ridiculous towards the end that PvP hardly required much forethought beyond unloading your cooldowns to instantly destroy 1-3 people. This was the original reason behind the introduction behind the idea of resilience, besides creating the PvE/PvP division. Take a look at this video of a level 60 warrior from vanilla WoW decked out in crazy gear(PvP gear WITHOUT damage reduction, which is what you guys are suggesting. These players have 3000-5000 hp max):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6jd2tE4pdw

 

The PvE endgame is all about stat and damage escalation. This is to instill a sense of progression, but it will inevitably destroy any decent PvP endgame there is by its design with each update. The solution is to make the PvP "grind" not so ridiculous to create a level playing field. You can also introduce non gameplay effecting perks for top PvP players by giving cool titles/appearance modifications.

[ArchonGamer]

I don't think expertise has to go I think they need to change what it does.

 

In Rift they have a PvP stat it's called Valor and all it does is reduce PvP damage. That is what expertise should do, it would be a help to get a damage reduction but not a game breaker the way it is now.

[Rogmar]

It's dumb, but it's typical of an MMO like SWTOR. If they honestly cared about a truly competitive PvP scene, they would have went a route similar to Guild Wars.

[depth_mil]

Anyone who played WoW's endgame understands what I'm talking about. Damage got so ridiculous towards the end that PvP hardly required much forethought beyond unloading your cooldowns to instantly destroy 1-3 people. This was the original reason behind the introduction behind the idea of resilience, besides creating the PvE/PvP division. Take a look at this video of a level 60 warrior from vanilla WoW decked out in crazy gear(PvP gear WITHOUT damage reduction, which is what you guys are suggesting. These players have 3000-5000 hp max):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6jd2tE4pdw

 

The PvE endgame is all about stat and damage escalation. This is to instill a sense of progression, but it will inevitably destroy any decent PvP endgame there is by its design with each update. The solution is to make the PvP "grind" not so ridiculous to create a level playing field. You can also introduce non gameplay effecting perks for top PvP players by giving cool titles/appearance modifications.

 

You're linking maydie's video as a showcase of what wow pvp was "like" in classic? Recklessness had a 30 minute cd fyi and it's up practically every fight in this video. Oh, and he's obliterating undergeared players in rank 14 gear - you know, the usual.

Edited January 6, 2012 by depth_mil

[bountywookies]

Cry elsewhere, come back when your level 50 and grind some warzones till you get good gear.

[Almghty_gir]

with pvp stats, the problem is always going to be this:

 

the people with the most of it, will win most of the time, and get more of it quicker.

the same people will not want to let go of that advantage regardless of the cost to the overall pvp scene.

new players will play a few matches and give up when they realise their opposition have almost a 50% advantage (20% damage dealt/less damage recieved/healing dealt).

 

the biggest problem here, is the absolute vehemance of the majority of pvp players who think they actually NEED this stat. they really don't. good pvp players will beat raiders all day every day regardless of the "additional damage" that hardcore raiders will gain through stats.

 

top pvp gear

 

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/hmj1VJX

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/1fFlaGV

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/33CcXT6

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/3JBmeAL

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/1KJbt7s

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/dPdvP04

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/a5bJpP5

 

 

 

total stats:

 

• strength:527
  
• endurance:638
  
• expertise:350
  
• absorption:143
  
• defence:200
  
• accuracy:153
  
• surge:102
  

 

 

top pve/crafted gear

 

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/9vBHQmR

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/b9x13Pu

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/dApsFf7

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/b83dTQn

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/gubAvml

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/2mVYd2Y

[*]http://www.torhead.com/item/PIS7Tb

 

 

 

total stats:

 

• strength:649
  
• endurance:796
  
• expertise:0
  
• absorption:143
  
• defence:200
  
• accuracy:153
  
• surge:102
  

 

 

stat inflation on a per-stat basis:

strength:122 (23% stat increase on pve/crafted) = 24.4 base damage increase for pve/crafted gear.

endurance:158 (25% stat increase on pve/crafted) = 1580 extra health on pve/crafted gear.

expertise:350 more on pvp gear.

 

but what is expertise actually doing? well, at level 50:

8 expertise = 0.23% bonus

46 expertise = 1.27% bonus

54 expertise = 1.48% bonus

 

well... expertise has a diminishing return, it's actually quite a harsh one. at rank 50, 350 expertise grants a 9.72% bonus.

 

except that pvp sabers, earpieces, and implants all have expertise on them. around 50 each in fact, which puts total expertise on 500, and total bonus at 13.88%

 

now, you might think that doesn't make up for the base damage increase, or the health increase, but that's where you'd be going wrong. let's take two jedi guardians, they meet in a game of hutball, one is wearing full pvp gear and the other is in full pve gear, they decide to start the fight by throwing their lightsabers at each other!

 

using the formula found here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=63362 and the values here: http://www.torhead.com/ability/gtfIIEV

we can calculate exactly how much each player will hit each other for.

 

the pvp player has a total of 777 strength

the pve player has a total of 899 strength

 

if expertise weren't involved at all:

the pvp player hits for (with this saber http://www.torhead.com/item/appFRKf ):

Min = ( 0.131 + 1 ) * 306 + ( 0.01 + 1 ) + 1.51 * 155.4 + 0.131 * 7085 = 1509.89

Max = ( 0.171 + 1 ) * 459 + ( 0.01 + 1 ) + 1.51 * 155.4 + 0.171 * 7085 = 1984.69

 

the pve player hits for (with this saber http://www.torhead.com/item/aFh56S4 ):

Min = ( 0.131 + 1 ) * 306 + ( 0.01 + 1 ) + 1.51 * 179.8 + 0.131 * 7085 = 1546.73

Max = ( 0.171 + 1 ) * 459 + ( 0.01 + 1 ) + 1.51 * 179.8 + 0.171 * 7085 = 2021.53

 

OMG SUCH AN ADVANTAGE TO THE PVE PLAYERS!

[Condiments]

You're linking maydie's video as a showcase of what wow pvp was "like" in classic? Recklessness had a 30 minute cd fyi and it's up practicaly every fight in this video. Oh, and he's obliterating undergeared players in rank 14 gear - you know, the usual.

 

Only vanilla pvp video that stuck out in my mind, and still illustrates my point(albeit on the extreme end). I hated having three fourths of my mage's health disappearing in seconds to an ambush+backstab opener, blowing up when a warrior came in my vicinity, or eating an arcane powered pyroblast+fireblast for the majority of health. I can easily do the same to others, but it made the game rather boring and one dimensional. Vanilla PvP in WoW was an absolute mess for a multitude of reasons, and the crazy damage escalation with each new raid was chief among them.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Condiments

[Skaarrj]

For once, just get rid of the "pvp stat". See where the game goes. Sometimes you have to take risks. This is a good risk to take.

[Knifewrench]

Wait a minute. A stat that makes both aspects of an MMO separate but equal? Call the President!

[Almghty_gir]

Wait a minute. A stat that makes both aspects of an MMO separate but equal? Call the President!

 

it doesn't, lol.

[TrollBerzerker]

Extremely interesting post by almighty gir. I wish I could uprate forum posts just to do so to that.

[Fooolking]

I agree completely with the original poster.

 

I'm actually refusing to wear expertise gear on my level 50 Bounty Hunter(I only have three champion pieces anyways...) Until they put in a level 50 bracket. (Something they needed to do one week ago.)

 

I noticed a rather large difference when wearing the expertise gear I do own.

 

Getting matched up against a bunch of 30s and 40s while having a huge advantage isn't my idea of fun.

 

There is no sport in it.

 

I think the level 50 players queuing up (on Ven Zallow anyways) in pre-mades with expertise gear are taking advantage of a noted issue in the current game. It's a pretty sad state of affairs.

[Almghty_gir]

Extremely interesting post by almighty gir. I wish I could uprate forum posts just to do so to that.

 

interestingly, the difference in stats between my level 10 sentinel, and my level 50 guardian in warzones is only ~150 strength and ~300 endurance.

 

which means if they took out expertise they wouldn't even need to bracket off level 50's, as the bolster system would work.

[ChokeForce]

FINALLY, people are starting to realise that pvp stats on gear is massively stupid and hurts pvp and does nothing what so ever to promote it.

 

Maybe in 4 or so years after 3 - 5 more mmo's are released developers might catch on and pvp will actually become fun again.

[TrollBerzerker]

interestingly, the difference in stats between my level 10 sentinel, and my level 50 guardian in warzones is only ~150 strength and ~300 endurance.

 

which means if they took out expertise they wouldn't even need to bracket off level 50's, as the bolster system would work.

 

Well the 50s would still have an advantage in the form of having all of their abilities and all of their skill points, so I think the 50s-only bracket would still be a good idea.

[Smoky_the_Bear]

They could simply reward the same gear, whether you pvp or raid. Your WoW example doesn't really prove that expertise (or resilience) is not an unnecessary stat. WoW doing it doesn't make it the best option. You were right about the raiders dominating but it doesn't disprove the OPs point.

 

If you could achieve the same gear in warzones / world pvp and raids then its a completely even playing field. Is that not what you want as a PvPer? A challenge, and a chance to prove your better? The PvP stat is a bit of a crutch and that's coming from someone who has focused on PvP in every MMO I have played.

 

Same gear means its a battle of skill. Why require 2 sets of gear for those that do both PvP and PvE (other than the time sink)? You should not feel proud of a kill if you happened upon someone in the open world who currently has his raid gear on.

 

Now with all that said... the game is in motion, it launched this way, and likely wont be changed. Very likely.

 

Im seeing a lot of people say "why not just have equal gear awarded for both PvP and PvE" and they are all missing a huge point, and the reason for a PvP stat in the first place.

 

When wow added resilience because raiders were steamrolling in PvP they chose that option over equal gear rewards for both, the reason for this is simple. When a new content patch is released there is a massive arms race to gear up as fast as possible, whether you pvp or pve, if pve and pvp drop the same gear that means that to be competetive at the top end you MUST do both, this is what the PvP stat eliminates.

 

If PvE and PvP drop equal gear then people who dont enjoy one form of gameplay or the other are put at a disadvantage, people who have less time are put at a disadvantage (even more so than is the case now), essentially people know that when a new patch comes out ALL their time will be spent grinding new gear as opposed to enjoying the game, this sucks to have to do and would cause massive complaints.

 

Im not saying a pvp stat is perfect but it does a good job of completely separating out the two different forms of gameplay when it comes to the gear grind.

[Almghty_gir]

Well the 50s would still have an advantage in the form of having all of their abilities and all of their skill points, so I think the 50s-only bracket would still be a good idea.

 

and the level 49's don't have that same advantage?

[Smoky_the_Bear]

People misunderstand that stats like resilience serve multiple functions beside simply segregating the PvP and PvE endgame. Anyone who played WoW from its humblest beginnings can attest to that. At the beginning with epic gear being scarce, and high level guilds slowly chipping away at fight, PvP was dominated by raiders, but mostly balanced. However, the gear based nature of the game created another problem altogether. As new tiers of gear were introduced and damage ceilings removed, people were dying before they could react.

 

This is known as, "damage escalation".

 

PvP stats not only remove raiders from facerolling PvP, but also safeguards the inevitable spikes in damage, by simply increases damage reduction as time goes along. It ensures classes can competently perform roles like healing, and utilizing their skills efficiently so it doesn't devolve into a Call of Duty style "I saw you first, you're dead" gameplay style.

 

The key to making this successful is by lowering the barrier to entry by allowing players to purchase gear early. So no, I don't think removing PvP stats is a viable solution.

 

Excellent points, pacing is the key to the PvP gearing process, if its too quick then the people who want to work at getting the best gear feel little sense of reward as anyone can start PvPing and have equal gear straight away (anyone that has grinded wow arenas remembers the sense of accomplishment at hitting a rating threshold and getting an upgrade).

 

On the other side of the coin requiring 100 hours of warzone time to achieve a full set of pvp gear is daunting and results in a small number of new players. I didnt hit 50 yet but it sounds like expertise is capped so achieving equal expertise to other players should be pretty easy, and then they can simply tweak the expertise cap upwards as gear levels increase.

[Almghty_gir]

one of the biggest problems with expertise, is that it increases damage. if it was a damage reduction and a negation to the trauma debuff, that would be MORE than enough.