Xcore
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I'd be willing to bet at least half the people in this thread don't know there's an option to set your Ability Action Queue Window.
Hey Nanotech,
I've so far read every post in this thread and will do my best to continue doing so. This means that I've read all of yours as well and I am fine with your point on my ridiculous prediction. Yes, you're absolutely right that me saying that it will "Make or Break" SW:TOR is an assumption based on my own experiences but I feel "very" confident about this, so much so that I am willing to label it a fact. This is largely due to historic repetition of other MMOs that have displayed this exact issue.
Now again, I am fine with you pointing out your critique in this regard but I would like you to understand that there is in fact a problem and that fixing/solving this problem only benefits you and your gameplay experience (assuming you prefer responsive/fast gameplay).
There is no doubt about it, there are 28 Pages of positive feedback and agreeing responses, this is an issue... help us fix it even if it doesn't appear to bother you because no ill will come of it being fixed.
Lets not nit-pick on wording, lets realize there is a problem, lets discuss it (as so many have done so amazingly) and lets bring it to Biowares attention so that we may enjoy SW:TOR for years and years and years to come.
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Hope they never dont even matter the reason add an arena to this game.
Different discussion, I am not trying to nag at anyone but I would really like to keep it focused on this subject because I think after 27 Pages of largely positive feedback and general agreement... a Bioware response is absolutely required.
Thank you though, I know you support the thread and cause
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I guess this is the reason that somehow makes me tend towards sage although I always wanted to play a trooper.
I couldn't grasp it before, it just feels smoother.
Edit for noob-question: How can I rate a thread?
When you reply (and you're at the window where you type the response post), scroll down there is a drop down menu option in the center that says "Rate Thread"...
Thank You for your support.
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Ok since people seems to be mostly complaining about spamming abilities and that causing problems then those are prolly fixable but the rest of the feel most likely wont get fixed.
Kind of reminds me of some hunter combat in wow. O.o
I remember you had to weave in aimed shot between autoattacks and basically use skills between autoattacks...
Have you guys tried thinkin of it that way? Ill try spamming abilities in the morning to try and get the buggy attacks so we can yknoe... Put up a proper bug report with the easiedt way to reproduce it! Spamming seems easy enough though... If its just spam they should be able to fix it easilly.
As i said earlier i dont spam and when i do cast underworld medicine and pugnacity in quick succession i dont get problems with it. Even if its just underworld medicine being cast repeatedly. Or medicine -> back blast for that matter o.o
Edit -> i think the problem wih spamming is the effect on the queue. I bet if we could disable the skill queue for people who spam skills, there would be an improvement. If not then its with how the gcd works when skills are spammed and that should be fixable.
Of again the delay with somethigike back blast taking a while to fire off after activatingthe skill and the damage coming when your char animates the actual shooting will most likely not get changed.
Its most prevalent when "spamming" a tight rotation of abilities that include Casted abilties and instant abilities. If you have every played WoW (its ok if not, I apologize for reference) I would picture a very spastic rogue style... spamming sinister strike and eviscerates etc.
Or perhaps a rotation that involves casted abilities as we all as instant abilities and some Cooldowns in between etc.
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It's not a balance issue. It's a gameplay issue.
Especially for gamers that play a lot of FPS games or who played WoW at a competitive level, playing any game where ability execution has built in delays is too maddening to even consider. It feels like driving a performance automobile that has a loose steering wheel.
That is a great analogy and I need to quote you for emphasis... this post is very well defining.
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PvP as a Sniper is pretty much unplayable with the current ability delay.
All my moves have cast timers, so I have to wait until the animation goes off before i use my next move or it gets cancelled.
Its kind of stupid to have to sit and wait, even though your cast bar just finished, because you have to make sure the animation goes off or it doesent cast.
I rerolled today because I cant PvP as a sniper anymore, the ability delay is just too much for me to bear.
I'm a Gunslinger and I know exactly what you're talking about.... its absurd.
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Since I purchased the game the night before traveling for the holidays, I didn't get a chance to play yet. If what you're saying is what I think you're saying, I'm feeling a little disheartened about starting.
I'll try to explain what I think you're talking about, correct me if I'm wrong:
You hit button "1" to cast something that takes 2 seconds to cast. However, due to this issue, the target actually receives the damage or healing 2.5 or 3.0 seconds after you started casting (due to damage/healing not applying until a certain point in the animation). During that 0.5 or 1.0 second "extra time", your buddy who was being healed could be killed by the mob, or the boss you were fighting could have killed you, even though your heal/damage would have been enough to save/kill the target if it would have applied at the 2.0 second mark instead of the 2.5 second mark.
Sorry if this is confusing, but I am trying to understand. If this is the case, it's a game breaker for me. Coming from raiding in WoW, things need to happen very specifically and precisely as you activate them. Actions advertised as "this effect happens after 3 seconds of cast time" should never actually mean "this effect happens after 3.5 or 4.0 seconds of cast time."
First of all yes, coming from a raiding background I know exactly what you are asking and yes... the scenario and your fear is correct in that, this is what happens. However, having said that... you need to still try the game itself as it is very good in a lot of ways (Check my Review on the OP -- there is a link).
Secondly though and this is an even bigger issue imo, its not just that as you describe due to animation length the time from when you "hit" the button to when the ability actually takes effect on the target is delayed BUT --
Here is the important BUT: The whole thing is buggy/can bug itself out VERY easily if played at a "fast" pace and "twitchy" level as you would WoW.
For example a Rogue.... you stand behind your target and as your energy is ticking up slowly (not enough to use sinister strike yet!) you don't just stand there (though you can, its ok) waiting for the energy to get to 35 to use Sinister Strike... no... you SPAM Sinister Strike already so that the SPLIT second that it gets to 35, it happens.
This you cannot do in SW:TOR, perhaps you can do it once, perhaps it'll work for two abilities in a row... but more often than not it'll completely bug it all out in the sense that the ability will happen, no animation... or the ability will trigger its CD and use its resource (as if it happened) but it didn't happen... or it'll happen .5 sec or 1 sec late... etc.
So all in all, you should still try to play and hold out on a response from Bioware, perhaps this is indeed fixable but be ready for no fix or response as that is also possible if this is a Core Coding or Engine problem.
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Good post. This seems to primarily be an issue with abilities with cast times, or long animations. It almost seems like the engine times when abilities fire based on when the animation ends, rather than your inputs or the casting bar. It doesn't seem to be nearly as much of an issue with most melee abilities, and I can only assume that's why.
I noticed it on my Jedi Knight as well, especially with Riposte (Warrior's Revenge Ability) but I agree, casted abilities make it much more obvious.
I think it is most prevalent when you chain multiple abilities as efficiently as possible, as if you're basically going through a DPS rotation. Basically it seems like the engine or mechanics don't support "quick" playing and "spamming" of abilities... it appears to bug out.
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Would someone answer/confirm my post? Cause I'm not sure I'm getting many points raised in this thread.
I'm personally having no problem; not sure what I'm missing?
I guess one of the simplest ways for me to explain it is, when you try to have a super tight rotation of abilities which include cast time followed instantly by instant ability then into casted ability etc...
at some point you'll have the bug happen, it'll just mess up, as in one of the abilities will trigger its CD but not the animation (or happen at all) or the ability will happen .5-1 second after its supposed to due to animation lag etc.
Its a bit hard to define but the point is that its not as "responsive", its not fast enough, when contrasted to WoW a solid quick and crisp rotation of abilities is just not smooth and in fact "stumbles" upon itself seemingly.
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Good post,but have you guys tried 0.0 delay? It fixes alot of the combat problems,and makes combat feel more natural.
The issue is mostly (if not completely) the execution of the ability not the queuing of it. This has nothing to do with it sadly...
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Damage being tied to the animation isn't what the OP is about. Not directly anyways, it's been guessed that it might be a fault of that implementation.
BTW riposte is an excellent example of this problem, despite being off the GCD, it very often will not activate during other skills because of the aforementioned problem.
Absolutely correct about Riposte Seismax, I had a Jedi Knight Guardian at lvl23... it drove me crazy as its basically "Revenge Ability" and very much required for the Tank to be smooth.
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Eh...id have to say that the subconsciously feeling whats more fun depends on what you find fun. I liked wowa control but i also liked how city of heroes played. I actually liked city of heroes queue system and how using abilities worked more than wows fps - like system.
So i find swtors system better than wows because of that.
Like monster hunter vs devil may cry kinda thing.
If you want wows combat done better go try champions online. I found that to take the best qualities of wow comba and make it better @_@
Now if swtor had champions onlines combat system... That i would say go right ahead and put it in! @_@
The problem is that SW:TOR is not trying to play differently than WoW... its just buggy. Like an ability happening without is animation. Like an ability's CD going off without the ability actually triggering...
All this is very apparent when trying to chain a tight rotation of 5-6 abilities.
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I feel like if we never get a response to this it's something that's wrong with the game and BioWare will probably pretend like it doesnt exist in order to get as much profit as possible. I have seen this issue be brought time and time again.
Yep, that is why I pulled the prediction of March-June (not fixed) = No Hope for SW:TOR... because basically, once we leave... (gamers) and go back to WoW or wherever we have our attachments its over. Even if it is fixed, no-one will come back to a dead game with a bad reputation.
My point is, I created this thread in the hopes that Bioware and EA/LucasArts really care and have invested enough resources to take this seriously and want to fix it, not just milk the subscriptions for 6-12 months then F2P.
In any case, a response is required... there is no other way of putting it. Be it positive or negative response, it is at this point required for the evolution and future of this game.
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I totally agree. Thank you for making this post, hopefully someone important will take notice and inform the Devs so we can see this fixed! I so love this game, it is unique for me but this is killing me. It's killing my enjoyment. Keep this in Page 1!
Thanks, what we need to do is really make them aware. Keep this on Page 1 until we get a response from a Bioware Dev. Regardless of what the response is... our job is to bring it to their attention, what they do with it... is out of our hands.
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I support this post.
Thank You, please rate
When you reply, scroll down you can rate the thread. I'm not sure if it will help to bring to Bioware's Attention but who knows.
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But I actually don't think bioware can do anything about it at this point. Its a bit too late for that since the problem is actually at the implementation of the code (not a lag or fps issue etc) The whole game is based on it. As a computer engineer, I think you shouldn't keep your hopes up about bioware doing something about this. I've never seen a game which actually did something about this issue (And its way too common)
Sadly I agree, once it has been in a game it has never been "fixed". As I recall, WoW largely played smooth (although it had so many other issues) when it launched...
My fear as well is coding/engine...
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I see, I wonder if throwing in an auto attack animation would make those abilities at least look more smoothly when transitioning.
I have not considered this but there might be something to it... then again, how does WoW handle Monk Class (it has no Auto Attack). But I think this is worth contemplating... the whole auto-attack thing...
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Thanks for posting this, this is something that has been bothering me for some time. I just hope that this post is kept alive for when the BioWare staff return from the holiday.
+1 to you sir for explaining it so well.
Please rate the thread if you want it to stay afloat and perhaps this will raise Bioware's awareness to this topic.
Tyvm
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It isn't so much start up time that I've felt is lagging, rather the finishing window on everything.
It's not that first attack that lags, it's that abilities don't smoothly transition into each other, as if the gcd and the attacks themselves are having a disconnect.
Well, it's hard to describe but that's been my impression.
I agree, I feel it most in a "Rotation"... like when I try to chain several abilities and cooldowns.
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I play a smuggler and it's especially bad and frustrating at times.
I can play PVE with it, but pvp is just too much of a hassle. Please fix this asap!
Yep, I play Gunslinger (lots of cast time) and PvE you get by because its easy enough/forgiving (at these levels anyways) but PvP its very noticable... perhaps also because there is some other underlying optimization issues in Warzones but either way it is more pronounced in PvP.
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This is an amazing post, I was expecting a hate post but this post is pretty good and constructive.
It's already too damn difficult to explain what this is, I think majority of people will not understand what exactly OP means but as a gamer who played most of the MMOs, I totally get it and I couldn't have explained it any better.
It's a FEELING which prevents me commit too much to any other game than wow. WoW is awesome about this. this feeling will be less disturbing as we get used to gameplay by playing a lot (again speaking with my MMO experience) however at the end of the day we will realize wow just feels more right. But I will try not to quit swtor because of this since this is an amazing game and I will try to get used to it as much as I can.
Exactly, and this Feeling that is so hard to describe is essentially the connection (real time connection) to your Avatar which is "how he/she/it responds to your commands" in real time. If there is any weirdness about it (ability delay... animation incorrectness etc.) you feel immediate disconnect and frustration.
WoW connects us to the Avatar the best, that is the secret to WoWs success.... "I believe"
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What timing do you have your Ability Action Queue Window? I believe that defaults to 0.5 seconds.
Yes default is 0.5 but it is important to understand that it is not the Queuing of Abilities that is the issue, it is the execution of an ability.
It has nothing to do with this sadly, for example... I cast "Aimed Shot"... about 0.5 seconds after I hit my button it starts to cast (at 40-50 FPS and 20ms Latency). Also, my "next ability" that I am spamming already before the Aimed Shot Cast Time is completed (as to not miss any time between) never goes off and no animation ever happens...
I mean, the whole system is just messed up, not smooth... not responsive.
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Xcore, for what it is worth, thank you for eloquently wording what many of us are struggling to find the words for. I agree with you completely, and have been feeling the exact same way you do. I look forward to any other responses you may have.
Thanks and the funny thing is, I completely sympathize with all the people who have no idea what we're talking about here or who don't see a problem etc.
I would just like to strap them into the chair and play WoW for 1 week straight (yes even if you hate it!) just to see the difference in Responsiveness that is being mentioned.
As for being eloquent, I try but at the same time I feel that people who have something inherently against WoW etc. go into Defensive Mode so quickly that the topic/subject and issue at hand is irrelevant and lost... thus they can never understand it in the first place.
In any case, I really am trying to sound the least possible condescending and arrogant and all I would like is some dialogue with a Bioware Developer, I really feel they need to communicate with us on this topic to put us at ease and to give a feeling of "We understand exactly what you're talking about, we'll try to fix it... here is what the problem is".
If Bioware, would just respond with anything. I am fine with them even saying "Yes guys, we know its a problem... we don't have a timeframe for the solution yet but we're on it"
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I updated my graphics card drivers, tweaked my NVidia settings and I have none of the issues you stated above.
... no... I'm not sure if I should indulge and attempt to clarify that this has "NOTHING" to do with hardware AT ALL or if you're trolling me.
Please, instead of me poking around trying to close the gap to your understanding of this subject... why don't you ask me what you're misunderstanding and I will answer and perhaps we will be on the same page.
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
Hey great question and response,
Its very simple to determine that it isn't lag or fps issues. I am standing around in the middle of nowhere and have about 50+ FPS with my ms being about 20-50 (less than WoW apparently where I am around 150-200)
Yet, the issues persist.
Now you make a very good analysis regarding the Character Responsiveness of several MMOs and their success. I would have to say yes, its not the "whole" story but stress also "yes" it is the #1 most important part. Resoundingly "yes" it is the reason WoW is so successful, perhaps now 6 years later... there are many other reasons WoW is staying where it is but this #1 criteria is still there.
Hope this helps and I was on topic of your question! I just woke up!