Xcore
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Just making sure all the spammers that are posting non sense see this..
Please never post this again... you're doing nothing of value with that post... AT ALL... nor do you have the grasp or understanding that its more complex than a "HURR DURR, I DO THIS, GAME DOES THAT... FIX IT GUYZ"...
The devs know the issues, intricately so... what we can do to help is further discuss details in a manner of discussion, not outline as you put forth with that incredible gigantic coloured font.
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...So wait, you're saying you're going to leave no matter what happens? Interesting.
I think ultimately the problem comes down to different people having different definitions of what 'responsive' means.
leave no matter what if its not fixed 100% (I know you're joking... still, my correction)
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Works for me too...right up until the animations get horribly broken to give them false 'responsiveness'. Soon as I see my character twitching between animations like a hummingbird on speed, any sense of immersion is gone.
The game is so focused on actually being immersive that deliberately breaking it like that is a surer way to drive most of the playerbase off than anything you could do.
It seems that either the people complaining that it isn't responsive are going to leave, or the people that think it already is responsive and don't want the animations wrecked are going to leave.
Either way, a significant chunk of people leave (I still think the 'it's fine' people outnumber the 'it sucks!' people, however).
No matter how it turns out, it's going to be destructive.
The its fine people will stay, because it'll still be fine... its still Star Wars... tatooine still has sand... etc.
The "its sucks" people, will leave, no matter what. Just like they left every other MMO since WoW.
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XCore's whole thing is a stealth attempt to change the game design to the way he wants it to play, under a thin veil of altruism. His quest for absolutely instantaneous responsiveness to keypresses looks, for all the world, like nothing more than the monomania of a hyper-competitive player. Yes, responsiveness is important, but it's not important, in a game that's as much story-based as combat-based, for it to be of the type that he (and a few other hardcore players) wants: instant responsiveness to keypresses, overriding any sense that your character is a living being deriving from coherent animations.
Pfeh.
Green: 100% Accurate.... my plan has been uncovered, I am afraid the wheels are set in motion however, and there is nothing you can do to stop it!
muahahahahahaah muahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahha
SOON, there shall be nothing but hardcore players, everyone MUST Raid OR DIE! If you are unable to get the best gear, you will be camped and one shot, everywhere... at all times.
This game will be nothing but a domination of Hardcore MetaGamers over the RPer, the casual.... the over 30s crowd.... DUN DUN DAAAA
And since you have unveiled my true intentions, I will share with you my NEXT step!
ADDONS! and MACROS! to further confuse and dominate the "casual" the "RPer". Soon, you shall BOW beneath the dominion of Hardcore!
Sorry... have to end post here, mom is home and I didn't clean up my basement...
... hope she bought some pizza pockets an mountain dew, got a Dragon Soul raid tonight...
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No, it's not irrelevant. That's what you don't realize (that's the problem Cranberries has on all his threads). If you treat people nice, fair, and with respect, people will see how reasonable you act and will be more ready to support your cause.
You've already alienated a person who may have been convinced to support you, back you up on your posts (me) because I can see where you're coming from. You state things based in logic, and at the very least, even if you are wrong, your heart is somewhat in the right place. But by the way you treated me, now you've pretty much made it so I can only see you as a jerk, therefore making it so I really can't bring myself to support you.
Bottom line, it hurts your cause to treat people unfairly, just be civil and it will make the case you're trying to make a lot easier to get behind. The better you treat people, the more people will support you and the more likely it will be that this gets fixed. Surely you can see that it only benefits you to be civil and fair.
Apologies, after arguing with people telling me its my system, isp or 0.0 fixes it or the worst offenders "there is no problem"... I suppose I am not as calm as I used to be 4000+ replies ago.
Still, I am willing to do my best to see this through until fixed... if it means being loved or hated, I accept either.
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I'm talking about the countless threads claiming someone is going to unsub because of the games unresponsiveness, or the threads bashing BW for this being the worst launch in history. My question is, do you all think that without anyone screaming or bashing their heads against thier keyboard, would any of these fixes come as fast as they appear to be?
Yes actually... if there is enough of an uproar about something, and violently enough... it gets more attention. I'm not saying its a good thing, its just true...
Someone posting "I Quit because X" is a valid statement of displeasure... there is a reason why Bioware or Blizzard or Trion etc ask for detailed explanation as to "why" you unsubbed upon doing so.
Therefore, creating a "thread" with an explanation might as well be great feedback for the Developer.
I think you need to get off of the Bioware/SW:TOR loving, WoW Hating... its unhealthy and clouds your mind to logic and reality.
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I wouldn't ban you, and I don't disagree with you. I don't agree that this thread needs to continue, but I do agree with it's overall point. I'm a good player, and I realize the delay and I've been vocal about how I hope it gets fixed. But this thread has degenerated into a back and forth useless thread. You're not raising awareness anymore, if at all. People who haven't experienced it either don't care or don't agree with you, and people who have can only agree with you. So "raising awareness" as you call it does you nothing, and even if it did, you're actually hurting your cause by the way you act.
Again, so there's no mix up, I agree that this is a problem.
Well I believe that this thread continuing until the problem is resolved is a positive thing, I wouldn't be hurt if it doesn't... as long as this issue gets resolved I'm fine.
As to "how I act", is again completely irrelevant... all that matters, literally the only thing that is of any relevance, is this getting fixed.
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The basic problem is that the agreement on what the ability delay is, or if there even actually is one, isn't universal.
It doesn't help that the OP isn't anything like consistent with his descriptions of what the problem is anyway, and seems prone to hyperbole that just muddies the issue further.
Negative, in fact you appear to be the only one truly confused about anything recently. If people are confused, surely there would be more following and support for your position?
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Xcore. Ignore the baddies in this thread. Just ignore them.
DLing PTR as we speak to see if the ability delay is in any way resolved.
I doubt that anything would be tweaked to a noticeable point yet... but do tell.
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This isn't at the heart of MMO failure. Being a good game or a bad game is at the heart of MMO failure.
All those MMOs that came out since WoW and didn't do well failed because they sucked, and almost everyone that played it apparently thought so.
Take warhammer or age of conan for example. On mmodata.net, warhammer gets a 'C' for accuracy (basically all estimates), Conan gets a 'B' (Mix of Estimates and reliable data).
Both of them show massive spikes at release, that almost immediately drop off to small fraction of that initial spike.
Your sig says you played SWG. Were you around for the NGE? Do you remember what the forums were like before it happened?
10000 times worse than what we have here.
Based on what I've seen and what I've heard, there's a small group of people that are cranky because it doesn't cater to their outdated playstyle, and the majority of the playerbase is mostly satisfied, so long as the actual bugs get fixed.
Maybe this just isn't the game for you.
And of course, I'd like as many people to play it as possible. But when you start making it quite clear that you're not willing to stay unless the game is wrecked as far as I'm concerned, well... I'm not gonna be sad if you leave because they didn't wreck it for you. Just sayin'.
You're extremely casual... its remarkable really... your past few pages of arguments are nearly infantile contrasted to the truth of what makes an MMO successful.
If you don't believe in Gameplay > All, you are simply wrong.
Unless perhaps you're playing a turn-based game or some other gimmick.
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Yes because Bioware cares if this thread gets 100 pages. That certainly helps them think about an issue they're already thinking about. Like I said, talk about it all you want, it's simply not beneficial. If you're an experienced MMO player (like me) you know that once the Devs have put their attention onto something, they're going to do it eventually, talking about it not has no benefit.
That still does little to justify your straw man attack upon me that was completely baseless and rather insulting. Especially when all I did was voice my opinion on if this is still constructive or not. This thread has devolved into "Hey, the ability delay is a big deal!" and "No it isn't!". It is a problem regardless of how big it is, and it will be fixed (hopefully this month), so continuing the immature back and forth does nothing for anyone.
The longer this threadline continues, the more awareness it raises and the more support it garners the more attention the issue will receive from Bioware. Rightfully so as it is the single most important issue to address to attempt the Market Leader Position.
You could leave the thread, you've made it clear you're opposed to it and that you would actually prefer banning me from playing the game outright.
Thanks
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I for one, would rather that people like you who attack anyone who doesn't agree with them, did not play this game -- regardless of how it affects the game. I didn't even disagree with you, and you told me to "get out". So I'm going to have to agree with the guy you quoted, I at the very least, don't want you playing this game with me, and anyone else like you.
I should be offended? I'm sorry you don't want me playing this game with you... I'm still trying to raise awareness to an issue that "if solved" would make this game overall a greater game for everyone, including you.
SW:TOR having 20 Million Subs >> SW:TOR having 2 Million Subs
The above is a benefit to "everyone"
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Then answer me this: Why are there so many people in here saying that combat *IS* responsive then?
It either is or it isn't, and if a lot of people aren't seeing it... well... there's got to be a reason for that.
Any suggestions?
Because they're unable to tell the difference... low APM, slow reaction time. Very simple...
Notice how no proper high ranking players support the claim of "no delay here, herp derp"?
We have two Pro Gamers who have proven their claim of Professional Gamer come out with analysis on the obvious delay and sluggishness. We have yet to have one Pro Gamer or anything near that come out and say "nope, its all good... very smooth".
Pretend its a racetracK, a new one:
1) You go drive your Miata on it, "WoW, so amazing... love it"
2) Michael Schumacher comes around says, "This is garbage... nothing like Nuremburg Ring"... lol noobs loving this... huehuehue
3) You say: "Michael, get over yourself... its fine.. I don't have a problem with it"
4) Michael: "Yea, you have fun in this crapfest..."
5) Six months later, no-one cares to race on your new track with you, cause it appears something is wrong with it... no-one knows what, they're not good enough to notice whats really the issue, they just don't feel like racing there.
My point is, those claiming there is not issue, simply aren't perceptive enough. This is very hard to admit because we all think we're the best drivers, gamers etc...
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No, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
In constructive criticism threads I agree with most of what people say, I'm quite reasonable and am not a fanboy. If you took the time to think before typing, or at least research your baseless claims, you'd know I'm rather vocal about the issues that plague this game. I'm just intelligent enough to see that complaining about an issues that's been acknowledges literally has no benefit, unless you just want to whine.
Are you the guy who tells people to get out when they mention that complaining about an issue being addressed is somewhat useless? Yes, you are. Get out.
Yes, because awareness and pressure needs to be kept up on this topic. Just because the Devs say "oh yea, we're on it... thanks" does NOT mean "ok guys, close up shop... lets stop talking about this... this is "so" yesterday"...
Give up, this topic is at the heart of MMO failure, it should be pressed to Bioware until we have exact details or visible improvement.
Being quite does not help Bioware or the future of SW:TOR.
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some of them have been addressed? Like what? Nothing has changed, it's still terrible
Nothing has been addressed, it is being worked on... check back lat January/Mid Feb... until then go do Dragon Soul? I don't know...
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Please stop the Hardcore - Casual discussions... not the place.
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No, but everyone I know thinks the game is, in fact, quite excellent... and somehow everyone I hear complaining about it claims to have either been a top Raider or a top Arena player.
You'd think if there was a major responsiveness problem it'd be the casuals who'd be having trouble adapting to it, and yet it's not: it's the top end super hardcore people.
Which means either the 'top end' people are having more trouble adapting to the differences than the casuals or... they're nitpicking over something relatively insignificant.
Or trying to get everything that's different from WoW's system changed to be identical, because they're uncomfortable with all their old tricks and exploits not working.
Either way, I know this: The 'Top End' people ruined World of Warcraft for me. How? By pestering blizzard until they redesigned the game in a way that made it impossible to both play with my friends and be competitive. So I ended up bored out of my skull most of the time. Literally just standing around some major town spinning the camera in circles and chatting with people.
I don't want that to happen again. I don't want to end up being sick of this game after less than three years. I want it to be great and STAY great.
The top end people? Only a very small part of the overall equation, but frequently having a disproportionate voice in how the game develops.
If it comes down to a choice between wrecking one of the game's best features or having them leave, I'll choose having them leave every time. Better a good niche game than popular pap, but it isn't the super hardcore 1% that are gonna make or break it one way or the other.
No, some people just NOTICE it more, and other people don't care.
A small group of people is fixating on the fact that superficial effects don't always go off instantly(because it looks like crap when they do), and confusing that with 'responsiveness'.
And being very, very noisy about it.
This entire post is beyond belief... you should be ashamed... you have no grasp of the genre. I thought you were more intelligent and reflective than the above statements.
I can't even highlight sections... from your tirade against hardcore players all the way down to "confusing" ability delay for responsiveness.
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Hmmm...sounds more and more like the people that have a problem with it are the kind of people I'd really rather didn't play the game, so they couldn't ruin another one for me.
You should want "EVERY" single person on the planet to play "your" game because it means more money to Bioware, more success, more turnaround... BioCon 2013? etc.
I know you were half joking but still, I dislike when people believe that "Someone not playing" the game is a "good" thing... I'd love my worst enemy to play this game, as long as he pays for it.
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I think thanks should also go to you, Xcore, for the very fact you (and others, of course) have put so much effort into sticking it out and providing details in those threads for the devs to use. It is clearly a vital issue affecting a great number of people and, like you, I feel it's critical to the long-term success of the game.
While I absolutely applaud the developers for taking this issue as seriously as it warrants, I'd just like to extend some personal thanks to you and the others who have been most active on this topic for sticking it out - lord knows you've suffered a lot of abuse because of it and not everyone would have the resilience you've shown to push for this in the face of all that hostility.
So yeah, hope to see your hard work start to pay off in future patches
Hey, thanks for those kind words, its very much appreciated
I fully realize my own progression of "gently but firm argument" in my OP all the way down to "hostile animosity towards naysayers" of more recent threads. I have even been on the offensive against Bioware and the Developers, questioning their talent and competence. I hope its understood that after 5 Threads, reading over 5000+ replies, daily at work and in private life being engaged with this issue, here on the forums, can wear a person thin.
I am simply very passionate about MMO Gaming, and I believe this issue to be important enough to fight for. Again thanks for the kind words and I do hope Bioware takes it serious, while I also hope that the playerbase understands this issue is so multi-layered and so complex that it simply is unrealistic to be "fully" resolved within a month or two.
Give Bioware Time, BUT ONLY! as long as the trust in the relationship is maintained through open communication. Keep pressure on Bioware, while acknowledging their accomplishments. Otherwise "constant" BDF/BioDrone Fanboism will not get this potentially great game anywhere at all.
Below, some thoughts regarding this subject in general:
I think this topic is incredibly important, it is the reason "we" all leave WoW (because we want to get out), go into the "next new MMO" and then return to WoW within a few months. Its this certain, unidentifiable, uncomfortable feeling when we say
"Something feels weird... I can't put my finger on it, its just... clunky?".
This above phrase, should be the bane of all MMO Developers, it is the reason nothing touches WoW. WoW's triumph isn't the 7 years of Content (MC/BWL is meaningless now!), it isn't its great "graphics or sound", it isn't the LFD or even Addon Support (though its needed)... it isn't the fact that there are very few bugs, high polish...
None of the above "truly" matters.
What matters is the "feeling", WoW has cracked the nut. Blizzard has accomplished what no other MMO has yet accomplished (Western MMO) this well. It is the feeling of seamless connection between yourself (The Player) and your Avatar. This connection IS the single most important thing in the entire MMO Genre. if this is not right, NOTHING will keep your MMO afloat.
Full precision responsiveness, zero delay (even if its a Client/Server Illusion) is paramount to immersion, more than any story can ever be. In an RPG, you play a character... in an MMORPG you play yourself. The need for optimal immersion is that much greater, this goes for the Casual RP Soccer Mom as well as the 17 year old Extreme Gamer. We all must become our Avatar's, the movement, the response/feedback... Whether it be walking through an "inn", PvPing in 2800+ Arena, World First Killing a Boss. This connection is the pinnacle of immersion.
I believe this is the most valuable lesson to learn for a developer in the MMO Genre.
This is what I am trying to accomplish with this entire threadline, to finally break this barrier of sub-par MMOs that just fall short and no-one really knows why...
The only reason I devoted this much time, this much effort to this cause is my firm belief that SW:TOR "can" be the next Market Leader, can do amazing things, can break the 15mill mark etc. etc.
But this MUST be fixed, this is literally the difference between being Rift and being WoW+.
Thanks again for your kind words, apologies for this long reply in this sticky...
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Believe it or not, you CAN have both. Not having both is just the result of laziness.
And are we playing the same game? I seriously don't find it sluggish or clunky...
This entire thread is filled with people that are here for the sole reason of it feeling sluggish and clunky in contrast to WoW, if you at all read the OP, the entire point is that Rift/Warhammer etc etc were all undone by this very certain, unidentifiable "feeling" of "something is wrong, I can't put my finger on it... it just feels weird".
Thats how the the exodus happens, silently, snowballing... no-one knows why (especially devs).
Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree. if we can preserve nice animations AND pure precision/responsive combat... PERFECT! I love the animations so far in SW:TOR.
BUT
As soon as 1 single animation > gameplay function at all, its wrong. This is where the "disconnect" happens between Player and Avatar.
0.1 Delay in favor of Animation is un-acceptable...
if you can have pure performance and function AND preserve amazing looks, well WIN/WIN!
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...Delay the client how exactly, since can't I think of how you could do that without introducing massive input delays.
I'm not. I'm really, really not. I hate animation clip. It looks horrible.
The same way all clients are delayed in WoW, thus your frostbolt following you forever. Also Animation Clipping > Delay/Sluggish/Clunky Gameplay
Function > Appearance
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from an edit on my above post:
You hit charge
you get put into combat
the mob is also in combat, which means it responds
your stun goes off once the animation gets to the appropriate point.
This is what I believe is going on, and it'll happen consistently until:
A) They untie an ability's effects from its animation
B) NPCs don't get into combat until they're hit by the effect
Either of these solutions will fix it, but I'm willing to bet option A would also fix many - if not all - of the other problems people are seeing.
No, it will do nothing for the Cosmetic aspects, if you Untie the effect from the animation at some point in a continuous rotation you will get the effects so far ahead of the animation that its silly.
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The ability going off the first time it's hit with no delay I agree with you about. The animation going off instantly MUCH less so. The damage and effects are ALWAYS going to have a delay just a bit higher than your latency (because of processing time) no matter how it's set up.
Client needs to be delayed as in WoW to simulate the responsiveness, the "instant" effect feeling.
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The only problem with that being that in order for it to have an effect like that, it has to be delayed on the SERVER. Since everything's handled by the server, the mob aggroing on you has to be happening on the server as well. So the fact that the ability has been activated has been sent to the server: the mob wouldn't aggro from the activation if it hadn't been.
I can think of four ways this could happen, the second of which lines up with the way the grenade video plays out:
1.) The server's waiting on a message from the client about the anim before it activates the ability (would EXPONENTIALLY increase the amount of inbound bandwidth bioware has to pay for, because of the excess, unnecessary messages!)
2.) the server's running an additional timer the same, known length as the anim before it applies the effects.
3.) The server's somehow doing things out of order, as if the aggro and subsequent attack are overriding the stun happening
4.) The client is sending things to the server out of order
3 and 4 could be bugs, but 1 and 2 would be deliberate design decisions...really really poor ones.
The ability going off the first time it's hit with no delay I agree with you about. The animation going off instantly MUCH less so. The damage and effects are ALWAYS going to have a delay just a bit higher than your latency (because of processing time) no matter how it's set up.
Until Bioware confirms any of these details or their way of Client/Server Communications all of the above is pure speculation, this entire thread has turned into speculation. Which at least is evolution in the right direction.
Either way, if this is the case then Client/Server Sync sucks, needs to be re-adjusted to delay the Client just like in WoW...
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
In order of importance to understand this subject at full breadth:
1) Intellect -- Firm grasp of logic and comprehension, problem solving, critical thinking
2) Gaming Experience -- Pro Gaming, Competitive
3) MMO Gaming Expeirence -- Professional, Competitive
4) Programming/Coding -- C++
5) High attention to detail/perfectionism
6) Min Maxing (Part of #2, 3)
The above six I posses at decent levels, the below I do not:
1) API and Library Knowledge
2) Scripting Language Knowledge -- Lua etc.
3) Development Structure Knowledge
4) Network Coding Knowledge
5) Engine Design Knowledge/Engine Coding
i don't know if this makes you happy? Are you asking specifically programming/coding knowledge? If so I know a decent amount of C++ and Java... nothing at all regarding Lua or any other "scripting".
You know, most of this is simply observational intelligence and common sense/logic right? Coupled with high degree of familiarity in regards to MMO Gaming....
This is why any Pro Gamer can come into this topic and give incredibly detailed analysis of the issue at hand. Not how to fix it, but certainly determine the problem...