[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

I guess it is now safe to assume that no developer other than Blizzard fully understands how to make good mmos. First, you get the gameplay and combat right. Then, you give your game an identity with lore, quests and all these voice over stuff. Bioware has chosen the opposite path which will probably be the number one reason behind the future failure of Swtor. Hate to say it but they should have learned from Blizzard seriously. Those guys now say that their next mmo - Titan - is internally playable but they have nothing to show because it is just a shell. This is how you develop games. First, the gameplay then all other stuff.

 

The awesome thing is that even after Blizzard's complete terrible direction (imo) with WoW to the point that I cannot stand playing WoW... at all. I STILL believe that "whatever" they come up with for their new MMO will be "awesome" and successful.

 

On the other hand, While I absolutely "LOVE" ALL Bioware games (until SW:TOR), I already know with 100% certainty that "no matter" what IP, how much money, how much development time they throw at their "new MMO" (if they made one) that it will be **** compared to whatever Blizzard makes.

 

Isn't that hillarious, I love Bioware games, hate what Blizz has done to WoW... yet I still believe in Blizzard more than Bioware...

 

 

So anyways yea, every new developer attempting to get a stable cashcow (like WoW) is doing it wrong. In order for a AAA successful MMO (millions of subs) you don't need LFG Support, You don't need more than 1 battleground, You don't need more than 5 total instances and you don't even need 1 raid at endgame.

 

Can you believe that? Its true....

 

All you need, is an amazing, stable and incredible responsive, immersive, smooth like silk combat system. Features have nothing to do with long term success, only short term. As proven by Warhammer Online, Rift and incoming SW:TOR (now 2-3 mill subs, 6 months later... less than a mill/or around a mill).

 

Publishers and Developers are so out of touch with the actual MMO Community. You know, likely over 70% of WoW Players would jump ship at the first sight of a decent new MMO... trick is just keeping them... and its not by features.

 

Then within your first 2 years, you do the above features one by one, over time nice and polished.

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Its related to latency, one latency is not limited to ping, you can have 30 ping and still have high latency via packetloss.

 

 

 

It's cause by two issues,

One the ability queue mechanic (disable it)

The other cheap (as designed to be cheap on server overhead) netcoding. Most of aspects of the game are client side with no server side checks, This results in alot of odd game preformance (it also makes the game vary vulnerable to memory editing)

No... go read up on the issue you're commenting on... this has been discussed almost two weeks ago.

 

Yes, this is ONE of a slew of contributing factors... it has already been established...

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

I'm going to assume ( I know its not always safe to assume ) hes doing this because the HMS failboat World of Warcraft has been sinking on autopilot and taken an Ice Berg to the lower starboard bow.

 

Tor represented "A New Hope" to so many people who ( myself included ) were really tired of the direction the game was taking, rehashed content, stat inflation, dumbing down, ect..ect.. as well as alot of people who may have never liked the whole campy cheesy atmosphere of the game or maby wizzardz and elves in general.

 

Now fast forward to ToR, THE GAME "LOOKS" AMAZING! there are so many awesome (in theory) mechanics and fresh concepts ( sprint being active OOC without having to be coolddown stingy ). The combat the charactors the equipment ( well mostly ) the array of abilities ALL BLOW PREVIOUS TITLES OUT OF THE WATER!! However...

 

When you arrive to find that the GCD system is broken and all this eye-candy takes presence over gameplay this SICKLY BITTERSWEET feeling of depression follows. Its like being trapped in a gamers HELL where all you ever wanted, all your hopes and dreams are right there in front of you yet, alas, just out of reach.

 

-Sloat, 3rd class hunter of <KiithSa Hunter>

 

Pretty much, add to that the feeling of the people in charge of this potential "dream-come-true" being completely indifferent and out of touch with what a "Gamer" wants and you get pretty much "me"...

 

I should note that its in Bioware's and "any" developers best interest to seriously address this issue of "why" do people go back to WoW? Because if you can solve that riddle you'll have yourself a goldmine as WoW is (even to those who play it) dreadful.... everyone is looking for a way out.

 

And it is my firm belief that WoW's success and continued success in the face of ALL competition is simply "Gamplay and Responsiveness", this connection between YOU and VIRTUAL YOU. No other game does it like WoW, you can have all the features and more than WoW, but if you cannot match the "feeling" of connection and control... its all for nothing.

 

Thus this frustration, all this potential, all this "story" and additions ALL for nothing... because of 0.5 seconds...

 

 

ZERO POINT FIVE SECONDS (<-- Metaphor for this feeling of disconnect) eliminate "years" of work by "hundreds" of people, instantly. Every new and cool feature made completely meaningless by the lack of attention to detail in the gameplay department.

 

(Its just about the only "true" instant in SW:TOR)

 

 

 

P.S.: You wanna know the funniest part about all of this? Once the exodus happens, nothing else matters. Even if its all fixed (AND) made better... "nobody" is coming back because an MMO is a continuous time investment, once trust in the product is lost, its over.

 

My honest prediction based on everything I've seen from Bioware, 1 (2 max) year until free to play. This being pushed by the exodus to come, EAs lack of sensibility and perhaps most important GW2 --> Titan.

 

Next EA MMO, I'm not sure what it could be... but it'll have failure written all over it already today... until they learn that you cannot polish a turd and sell it.

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

not to get into a semantic debate (i edit film for a living)... but they are still transitions from one scene to the next. so yes, they are transitions. regardless of how they were created.

 

IMO it was a waste of your CPU cycles rendering it and probably increased you editing time 10 fold.

 

now with my editing critique aside...

 

i eagerly look forward to the final product. i always felt something was slightly "off" with this game from the beta forward and your original post made me feel like i wasn't actually going insane. i hope the final product illustrates this in such a way that people CANNOT ignore the issue.

 

keep fighting the good fight!

 

I know its technically a transition of course, going from clip to clip etc. I just wanted to point out it isn't one of those "presets" etc...

 

I'm having some fun with the preview, the actual video I'm working on is more focused on the issues at hand and displaying those etc...

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

i appreciate all the extensive work you've done OP on this issue that many players felt but couldn't exactly put words to.

 

the transitions in your video are very distracting though. pulls away from the actual content being displayed. i would advise removing that nonsense from the final product and doing more work highlighting the actual ability lag (maybe add timers, etc).

 

They're not exactly transitions and cut-aways, its actually all in 3D space.

 

But no, none of those shenanigans are in the actual video I am working on... as I said, this was supposed to be a fun/cinematic little preview. The actual project is more analytical/steam-lined etc.

 

I agree, a video in that presentation couldn't actually properly showcase any issues.

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Hey Xcore ..

Thanks for the preview.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

I see how much time you are putting into this

and I look forward to the final cut.

 

Thanks

 

Yea, give me a little bit more time and the full, final video should be good. I hope you like it and I hope it showcases to Bioware more clearly what we are discussing.

 

Although, I don't really know if Bioware gives a **** anymore....

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Nice preview. ETA on final cut?

 

Can't give ETA sadly but what I can say is that the preview video does not represent the layout or format of the final. What I'm saying is thought some footage was in the preview vid, the final will not be a "floating/jumping" around cinematic such as the preview

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Song is Heart of Courage by Two Steps from Hell, if anyone's interested.

Edit: Might be wrong there, can't quite pin down which one it is. Army of Justice?

 

On topic: Nice preview so far. Looking forward to the full thing

 

Protectors of the Earth by Two Steps from Hell

 

You can hear it here:

 

 

The full thing will be out asap of course but I want to make sure that I nail it well enough to really properly showcase this entire topic. I'll keep you guys updated of course whenever you wish, I'm still in this thread every day

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Update: Ability Delay & Character Responsiveness

 

The video is in the works and I am dedicating as much time as I can to it, the reason for the lengthy delay is simply that it will not be 1-2min video but a real analysis of the problems and ramifications.

 

So until then, I'd like to release a little preview video, just to prove that I am on it and because it was fun to make. I hope you enjoy it for what its worth.

 

Preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

 

 

 

 

Also, here you can see the actual work in progress (for those who care):

 

Ability Delay & Avatar Responsiveness

 

1) Short Introduction to Threadline and topic of discussion

2) Start with Positives -- SW:TOR Instants/No GCD Success!

 

Sequence: (1) -- Showcasing examples of failure to trigger as well as delay

 

Ability failures to trigger even though it is "not" on CD, GCD is "not" in effect, there is "no" other ability being channeled or cast and all ability requirements are met.

 

Showcase smooth (instant) WoW ability executions under any circumstances.

 

Sequence: (2) -- Ultimate effect of delay in PvP

 

SW:TOR Warzone footage, showcase ability delay/execution delay and how it affects fluidity in PvP.

 

WoW BG Footage, showcase effect of instant ability executions without delay and distinguish differences in fluid/seamless gameplay.

 

Sequence: (3) -- Ultimate effect of delay in PvE

 

WoW competitive footage, showcase necessity of perfect responsiveness and its effect on tuning a goo endgame (PvE and PvP Interactions).

 

SW:TOR Rotation, showcase visual and feedback sluggishness, feeling of "lag in response", feeling of disconnect from Avatar.

 

WoW "The Dummy Movement Test", showcase (Emphasize Importance of) full movement with target swapping and ability exections.

 

WoW "Caster and Hunter" rotations, showcase smoothness of rotation chaining "Casted and Instants" as well as "Procs". (Emphasize Importance)

 

Sequence: (4) -- Ultimate effect on Healing

 

WoW Healing footage, emphasize on the "need" for responsiveness to healers for movement and chaining of "Casted" abilities with "Instant" abilities

 

Sequence: (5) -- Animations, clipping, aesthetics, importance of "perfect" visual feedback

 

WoW animations example, showcase "ugly"/simple/quick animations in rogue/melee rotation.

 

WoW animation example, showcase "procs" and "instant execution" of non GCD/Instants in animation.

 

SW:TOR animation example, showcase "nice"/elaborate/long animations

 

SW:TOR animation example, showcase "procs" and success as well as failure due to size of animation.

 

Sequence: (6) -- Importance of Perfection, attention to detail in feedback - Animation/Sound Sync

 

WoW flying mount example, showcase incredible precision of acoustic feedback

 

WoW animation sync, showcase incredible precision of visual stimulation/feedback

 

SW:TOR animation sync, showcase lack of precision, lack of attention to detail of stimulation/feedback

 

Emphasize importance these contribute to the feeling of "being" the Avatar and not "playing" the Avatar. SRPGs you "play" a character/story, MMORPGs you "ARE" the character -- Must feel perfect for longevity and to eliminate feeling of disconnect.

 

Sequence: (7)

 

WoW UI Response and accuracy, showcase buttonpress (UI Response) accuracy to animation/sound/effect of ability.

 

SW:TORs UI creates feeling of disconnect, showcase unreliability, lack of accuracy.

 

Sequence: (8)

 

SW:TOR Warzone combat footage and frustration

 

WoW BG footage of perfect responsiveness and fun combat

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

I'm going to assume notes aren't up to date, lying in an interview is pretty inexcusable - unless an outstanding explanation is provided not long after...

 

I don't believe in hunting down developers interviews across the net... if they have something to say to the community "here" is the place... "these forums" you know.

 

Pretty appalled by Bioware's handling of not only this issue but general communication.

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Hey guys, Bioware Is being silent on this now (again) but I'll upload my little preview of the project that I am working on which is essentially a full length detailed analysis of this entire problem.

 

When I post the preview in a little bit I will also post the details of the content (scenes) in this project. Stay tuned!

 

 

P.S.: I wanted to upload it last night but fell asleep watching Voyager/TNG on the couch while some parts were rendering.... apologies!

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

I'm finalizing a little preview, it showcase a bit of the topics that will be covered, hope you like it and I hope you are patient for the full thing coming soon

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Responses in this thread amaze me sometimes, but then I thought of a real life example after watching an episode of Top Gear that may shed light to why so many state they don't have this issue.

 

So, lets compare SWTOR to a new automobile, say the BMW M3. During testing of the M3, the reviewer notices that the gearbox is annoyingly slow to change up and down gears. People may or not agree with this, because they have a different view of how automobiles should operate, just as gamers have different levels of experience and expectations with games.

 

The soccer mom, who's only ever driven a clunky SUV or minivan, wouldn't notice the problem with the transmission, and claim that everything is fine.

 

The weekend track racer or enthusiast would feel that the vehicle doesn't quite accelerate right, but may not be able to precisely place what they don't like about the performance.

 

The professional racing driver would immediately notice the terrible gearbox and would hate the current state of the automobile because of it.

 

 

Everybody get the comparison, let me know as we continue to bump the thread

 

This, I have been making analogies like this for the past 700 or so pages but rest assured that in the next 200 pages there will be several who say:

 

1) What delay?!

2) It's a feature, l2p noob

3) Go back to WoW!

4) Bioware said they're looking into It, stop posting about It!

5) Addons ruin the game, I'm against them! <-- ?!

6) 0.0 fixes it! <-- The worst!!

[A quick update on Ability Delay]

Perhaps Bioware believes that all the hype regarding this has died down now and they can get on with it. perhaps make a little note in a patch saying "fixed some ability delay"...

 

Very disappointed once more in Bioware, I think that my time with SW:TOR is concluded once my video is released. No communication at all since the 6th on the hottest topic these forums have yet seen.

 

Not impressed with the direction Bioware is taking with the continued development of their MMO.

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Is there a reason the Ability Delay Sticky is gone?

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

The vid will no on the first page with the rest of the accumulated info right?

 

Yes of course

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Update

 

Preview!

 

I'll be uploading a preview tomorrow (Friday) evening after work etc.

 

 

It'll be about 3-4min in length so not an el-cheapo preview, but the video in its entirety still requires editing which I hope to complete over the weekend...

 

 

Edit: Also with the preview I'll include full write-up of content and sequence draft/details.

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

BUT the developers need to create the content around this. "Instant" certainly isn't instant. Seem like every ability has a ramp up, and timing can become iffy in hectic situations.

 

This is a very great danger, in this current system it is impossible to have challenging and meaningful as well as super tightly tuned PvE Raid Content. The encounter naturally has to be more forgiving to imperfect and sub-optimal play currently, even at the highest level. So, the less perfect the character responsiveness is through perfect UI Sync, Animation/Sound Sync with ability effect to player input, the higher the potential for over or under tuning gets....

 

PvP is currently completely unplayable at competitive levels, I am not even anything near professional but I am fast enough and fully keybound (fully... Every ability including 1h buff and mounting etc) to notice it. I can only imagine the very competitive PvP scene or professional level players find this PvP unplayable.

 

PvP cannot be competitive at very high levels as the gap between, very bad/bad/average/good/great and professional is non-existent... It isn't rewarding, skill cap is Unbeliveably low...

 

 

The above are the real reason this overarching and extensive problem will "make or break" SW:TOR. I just wish all these deniers would be able to grasp the importance of this... If you love SW:TOR or want it to succeed at the highest levels, how can you not support this?

 

Even if you dont yourself experience this problem of responsiveness or disconnect from your avatar, look at how many do... I think It is established through analyzing the past 6 threads on this that the faster, more twitch, more competitive, higher APM and faster reflexes you have, the easier it Is to notice.

 

It's fine not to notice it but to let that be a reason to deny this is very ignorant, why not simply accept that perhaps you aren't playing t that level where one pereives it? It's like accepting that you aren't as good a driver as Michael Schumacher, painter as Da Vinci, Writer as Shakespeare etc....

 

I would urge all who don't necessarily experience this problem to not let their pride, love for SW:TOR or hate for WoW stand In the way of improving this game.

 

I would urge all who believe this to be intended and we all need to adapt, realize that it is in your own best interest to have SW:TOR take market leadership from WoW but in order to do so, it needs to be equal better in certain key areas. You need the WoW population to jump ship amd stay here... This is not a bad thing... Relax, WoW community is fine, I'm part of It... A lot of people you play with every day in SW:TOR are/were... It's not so bad.

 

Please stop the White Knighting, BioDroning for SW:TOR and Bioware or High Horsing on WoW.

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Update

 

Hey, just wanted to give another update. I actually was able to spend some time on it today and the video is looking good. I'm trying to make it a little fun and exciting too through the intro as well as let my creativity go a bit with the editing.

 

In any case, we're getting there and I'm excited to release it soon. It will be my "homage" to this entire issue and 6 Thread Topic. I am hoping to release a "preview' asap if anyone is interested as well as Sequence/Content Draft.

 

 

I do take this very seriously still and the amount of support this has garnered really does show the absolute importance that should be placed on studying it as well as make it a key focus for development in an MMO.

 

I think developers have forgotten the "Gameplay" aspect of creating their game as they were blinded by WoW's "Features" (Which essentially are meaningless to actual gamers). Features can be implemented over time, core gameplay flaws leave a bad taste...

 

 

 

P.S.: Still reading every post in this thread as well as the Sticky Note on this subject! Until this has been resolved or my faith in Bioware has been shattered, I'll be on this

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Rating.

 

Also, any update on that vid you're making Xcore?

 

Yea, actually working on it as we speak, I hope to have all the "video" stuff done by Friday Evening (based on how much time I'll have tomorrow and thursday)... currently in Adobe After Effects.

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Please continue to rate and show your support for this sixth thread...

[A quick update on Ability Delay]

The fact that they dont mention any even minimal fix to this in the 1.1 its not a good sign..

 

even if you think that this problem was present even in beta.

 

Give it time, its not simple...I would rather they study the problem for a few weeks and brainstorm/analyze before starting the fixes. PLease understand that a multitude of issues large and small contribute to this "clunky" feeling.

 

This is not realistically fixable within a month. however, what Bioware must do better is communication...

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

i've said several times that some animations are not in sync with casting bars but that the abilities' effects are, in fact, in sync with the animations. these animations have no bearing on other abilities. go play wow.

 

Unbeliveable....

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

Messing around on my JK a lot and it seems to me that skill stuttering only happens when you repeatedly hit the same skill button.

 

I changed my skill queue time to "1" (in the first option in the options menu) and it resulted in much smoother gameplay, as you can have your next skill queued up before the GCD. You just have to train yourself to not mash the key until you see the skill go off

 

This is not acceptable in higher level (read: competitive) play, please... this statements from you newer people have been discussed treads ago... Go read...

[Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)]

well, it's just that the part of the animation that coincides with the effect happens after the casting bar has filled, giving the impression that the effect is delayed. for some reason, it doesn't happen when you spam the ability. the same thing happens with charged burst and underworld medicine but it's not a hindrance as the animation doesn't prevent you from using other abilities. i find it really hard to believe that this is what's causing all the uproar on the forum.

 

Supertouch, I have been reading your posts for quite some time now and your absolute Ignorance to this subject is now at the point that it is offensive.

Firstly, it is absolutely and completely unacceptable that animations and/or are not in perfect sync with the ability effect as well as UI. When the effect hits or ability triggers is simply not the only point of contention nor contribution to the feeling of disconnect.

 

Secondly, this Is a real, now definable, concerning issue with SW:TOR as well as the MMO Genre as a whole. Your continued mockery of this subject is both confusing newer people who are not quite able to pinpoint the source of the disconnect as well as shroud the danger that this really is for SW:TORs success as an MMO.

 

Lastly, if you are unable to notice any delay and you have NO issue at all playing the game and love it. Please stop posting here OR accept the fact that it is not an easy topic and certainly not easy to define. Quite a lot of people who are not as "competitive" will likely not notice the issue or accept it without seeing the flaw In it.