Why is there a delay on restoring Advance Reputation conquest points?

[Saeten]

Why is there a delay on restoring Advance Reputation conquest points? This should have been fixed already. At least restored to 50% of the original amount imho, but I'd prefer the original amount. The offset added objectives don't make up for it and the grind is horrible for the rewards. I understand their intention of making us play longer for the same old grindy rewards as a business decision. It's intentional, It's not what they should do as they need to make the game more enjoyable for end game. At least they should communicate what is happening.

-Frustrated Founder and long time subscriber.

[DawnAskham]

They aren't going to come out and admit the change was to reduce CC from seasons in the hope it drives additional revenue to meet their financial targets even though anyone with a clue knows this is why the change was made.

If they planned ahead of time (most likely) to make the change and have baked in the changes to revenue from the change and sent that up the line to management, they probably can't just revert without a plan to get that revenue from somewhere else.

They probably also are having to explain why some number of us cancelled our subscriptions as it seems to have caught them off guard, and which again negatively affects their revenue plan.

Basically, they painted themselves into a corner.

If they revert the change, some players will keep farming CC across servers and they may lose some amount of revenue due to lower CC sales, if they keep the change, some players cancel their subscriptions and they lose some amount of revenue.

Either way, this is not going to be a win for them.

So get ready for even more CM items, FOMO sales, or some new in-game unlocks that cost CC, along with increasing cost to unlock items such as seasons items (from 10 to 80), and even more recolored junk categorized as 'platinum' (versus bronze / silver which cost significantly less in CC to unlock) so they can charge more to unlock.

Maybe now would be the time to push for adding more in-game items to collection (and unlock-able with CC) -- more potential revenue from them, more availability and accessibility of items for us.

 

Edited March 23 by DawnAskham

[VegaMist]

18 minutes ago, DawnAskham said:

If they planned ahead of time (most likely) to make the change

The way it was implemented, it doesn't feel like it was planned ahead of time - feels more like a last minute change, with Blue Prints essentially acting as reputation drops and ending up in our inventory. It is possible though that the order to increase revenue came somewhere from above, and this was a knee-jerk response which backfired big time.

[Toraak]

44 minutes ago, DawnAskham said:

They aren't going to come out and admit the change was to reduce CC from seasons in the hope it drives additional revenue to meet their financial targets even though anyone with a clue knows this is why the change was made.

If they planned ahead of time (most likely) to make the change and have baked in the changes to revenue from the change and sent that up the line to management, they probably can't just revert without a plan to get that revenue from somewhere else.

They probably also are having to explain why some number of us cancelled our subscriptions as it seems to have caught them off guard, and which again negatively affects their revenue plan.

Basically, they painted themselves into a corner.

If they revert the change, some players will keep farming CC across servers and they may lose some amount of revenue due to lower CC sales, if they keep the change, some players cancel their subscriptions and they lose some amount of revenue.

Either way, this is not going to be a win for them.

So get ready for even more CM items, FOMO sales, or some new in-game unlocks that cost CC, along with increasing cost to unlock items such as seasons items (from 10 to 80), and even more recolored junk categorized as 'platinum' (versus bronze / silver which cost significantly less in CC to unlock) so they can charge more to unlock.

Maybe now would be the time to push for adding more in-game items to collection (and unlock-able with CC) -- more potential revenue from them, more availability and accessibility of items for us.

 

This is a false narrative. Doing the reputation token once per day, 7 days a week for all 20 weeks will only get you 280 Galactic Season points, plus the 160 for logging in for 4 days per week (a total of 440). With that few points you wouldn't really get much of any CC's from Galactic season's if that is all your doing. Most of the CC's were moved to the end of the track a few season's ago. You'd still have to put in the work with Seasonal Objectives for those CC's.

 

Without actually doing anything else for GS (meaning 0 objectives) you would only get 400 CC's per server, out of the possible 2k.

 

Edit: Not to mention even those that do Season's on Multiple servers are usually doing it during the first 10-15 weeks, and being finished with it. I know when I did it in the past on multiple servers I was done by weeks 9-11 and went back to my main server. I wasn't wasting all of those additional days/weeks popping tokens for 2 points. It was get seasons done, so I can relax again after a week or 2 off of game.

Edited March 23 by Toraak

[DawnAskham]

15 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

The way it was implemented, it doesn't feel like it was planned ahead of time - feels more like a last minute change, with Blue Prints essentially acting as reputation drops and ending up in our inventory. It is possible though that the order to increase revenue came somewhere from above, and this was a knee-jerk response which backfired big time.

It very well could be - it seems clear they pushed out this season half baked and incomplete, but I still have a suspicion they have had someone looking at how players are capping CC across servers for some time, and trying to make adjustments to discourage all but those with a lot of excess time and determination.

Whether they just decided last minute to make the specific change made or whether they knew ahead of time they were going to make the change, and just waited until seasons launched to prevent the backlash from occurring before players subbed back up for seasons is uncertain.

 

[DawnAskham]

10 minutes ago, Toraak said:

This is a false narrative. Doing the reputation token once per day, 7 days a week for all 20 weeks will only get you 280 Galactic Season points, plus the 160 for logging in for 4 days per week (a total of 440). With that few points you wouldn't really get much of any CC's from Galactic season's if that is all your doing. Most of the CC's were moved to the end of the track a few season's ago. You'd still have to put in the work with Seasonal Objectives for those CC's.

 

Without actually doing anything else for GS (meaning 0 objectives) you would only get 400 CC's per server, out of the possible 2k.

It's not a false narrative that reducing the CQ from that one objective WILL reduce the number of players completing Seasons across servers, nor is it a false narrative that the change WAS made to reduce the ease of completing seasons and gain CC in general and across servers.

Sure, that objective alone was not enough to complete a season - but that alone was enough to get quite a ways into a season without doing much of anything, even further when adding in things like gifting and ranking up a companion, moving decos, crafting, crew skill missions, etc, as well as picking off weekly objectives like the one this week to visit a stronghold.

Edited March 23 by DawnAskham

[Toraak]

2 hours ago, DawnAskham said:

It's not a false narrative that reducing the CQ from that one objective WILL reduce the number of players completing Seasons across servers, nor is it a false narrative that the change WAS made to reduce the ease of completing seasons and gain CC in general and across servers.

Sure, that objective alone was not enough to complete a season - but that alone was enough to get quite a ways into a season without doing much of anything, even further when adding in things like gifting and ranking up a companion, moving decos, crafting, crew skill missions, etc, as well as picking off weekly objectives like the one this week to visit a stronghold.

It most definitely is a false narrative. People may use some reputation tokens for that, but not to the point of it mattering for collecting of CC's per server. 

 

Big deal if you can get 440 points into seasons (which is 400 CC's per server) (280 from daily, +160 from 4 days login per week). That is roughly level 55. Most of the CC's are beyond that point and have been for many seasons. If you've paid attention to the track over the last 3 seasons or so, you'd have noticed 1,200 of the CC's are from the mid 80's until rank 100. That means you still have to put in a decent amount of work to get them, and most people aren't going to be doing 20 weeks of popping a rep token every day. They are actually going to be doing the weekly objectives which will complete seasons long before week 20. Most would be done by week 11-13 if they are taking time and not pushing on each server to maximize points over the first 9 or 10 weeks.

 

Not to mention getting the 25k can be done within 5 minutes or less even without that, even unguilded. Raise a comp level, do 1 heroic, kill 25 mobs. Done. So if BS did it for the CC reason, then honestly that's foolish, because it won't stop those that intend to do it on all 6 servers anyway.

Edited March 23 by Toraak

[Saeten]

2 hours ago, Toraak said:

Not to mention even those that do Season's on Multiple servers are usually doing it during the first 10-15 weeks, and being finished with it. I know when I did it in the past on multiple servers I was done by weeks 9-11 and went back to my main server. I wasn't wasting all of those additional days/weeks popping tokens for 2 points. It was get seasons done, so I can relax again after a week or 2 off of game.

Exactly how I play. finish up GS on other servers and then concentrate on my main server for the 100 weeklies for cheevo.

[TahliahCOH]

We don't really know why they changed it in the first place, so it's hard to guess why they haven't acted quickly to restore it. It is a puzzle, though, because it's clearly a deal breaker for a number of players (including me, and I about just over 30 days left to await their decision . . . in order to make mine).

If it had ANYTHING to do with Seasons, it needs to be restored asap. If it had anything to do with anything not Seasons related, it needs to be restored asap. This is not negotiable for me at this point of have our QOL sucked out of the game and our powers so gimped we can't even complete timed cheevos anymore. There is NO good reason for nerfing the rep cq and the cascade of effects for solo PVEers, smaller guilds, and the eventual and predictable flood of PVEers who hate and don't care to learn PVP or GSF into those areas just to get the easy cq they lost (it's not hard to crash a ship or get killed a bunch).

The rep cq only mattered if you had your SH bonus up to the 150% cap, or (to be fair) at about 100%. So it didn't even help anyone who didn't invest the time to earn multi-tens of millions to EARN that bonus in the first place. It's just a stupid move that has not been explained in any way that makes sense and needs to be rolled back. It's certainly NOT making anyone play more, longer, or harder, so whatever its goal, the result seems to be the opposite.

[Kilekrn]

Actually, it is making me play more . . . Elder Scrolls Online.

[ThanderSnB]

1 hour ago, Toraak said:

It most definitely is a false narrative. People may use some reputation tokens for that, but not to the point of it mattering for collecting of CC's per server. 

 

Big deal if you can get 440 points into seasons (which is 400 CC's per server) (280 from daily, +160 from 4 days login per week). That is roughly level 55. Most of the CC's are beyond that point and have been for many seasons. If you've paid attention to the track over the last 3 seasons or so, you'd have noticed 1,200 of the CC's are from the mid 80's until rank 100. That means you still have to put in a decent amount of work to get them, and most people aren't going to be doing 20 weeks of popping a rep token every day. They are actually going to be doing the weekly objectives which will complete seasons long before week 20. Most would be done by week 11-13 if they are taking time and not pushing on each server to maximize points over the first 9 or 10 weeks.

 

Not to mention getting the 25k can be done within 5 minutes or less even without that, even unguilded. Raise a comp level, do 1 heroic, kill 25 mobs. Done. So if BS did it for the CC reason, then honestly that's foolish, because it won't stop those that intend to do it on all 6 servers anyway.

They will probably nerf Companion: Influencer next.

[Toraak]

7 minutes ago, ThanderSnB said:

They will probably nerf Companion: Influencer next.

possible. but we'll all find other stuff to make it quick either way. However, since it can be a credit sink, they may not want to.

Edited March 24 by Toraak

[Darev]

5 hours ago, Toraak said:

It most definitely is a false narrative. People may use some reputation tokens for that, but not to the point of it mattering for collecting of CC's per server. 

 

Big deal if you can get 440 points into seasons (which is 400 CC's per server) (280 from daily, +160 from 4 days login per week). That is roughly level 55. Most of the CC's are beyond that point and have been for many seasons. If you've paid attention to the track over the last 3 seasons or so, you'd have noticed 1,200 of the CC's are from the mid 80's until rank 100. That means you still have to put in a decent amount of work to get them, and most people aren't going to be doing 20 weeks of popping a rep token every day. They are actually going to be doing the weekly objectives which will complete seasons long before week 20. Most would be done by week 11-13 if they are taking time and not pushing on each server to maximize points over the first 9 or 10 weeks.

 

Not to mention getting the 25k can be done within 5 minutes or less even without that, even unguilded. Raise a comp level, do 1 heroic, kill 25 mobs. Done. So if BS did it for the CC reason, then honestly that's foolish, because it won't stop those that intend to do it on all 6 servers anyway.

This is absolutely why I did it on both of my subscription accounts.

I'd log into each of the 5 servers, every day, pop the rep token, the raise the companion gift level, strong hold deco, 5 crew skill missions (tier 1) and that'd be well over 50k conquest points.  If there were quick and easy GS objectives, I'd do those too.  But the bottom line is that rep token sped things up VERY dramatically especially considering the real life time it took to do 5 servers.

Since the change with the current GS, it takes FAR longer to do the same thing (even discounting the fact that there's a new server).

As a matter of fact, I haven't even got to GS 5 on a couple of the servers (French/German) because I see it taking far more time this time around and my interest in it is waning quite quickly.

[captainbladejk]

Considering how big of a disparity there is between possible points in pvp and pve already they don't need to be nerfing anything. pvp already has a massive advantage in terms of point generation potential each week. If they want people doing more grind they need to give people objectives worth doing and not try to just pigeonhole people into seasons, GSF and pvp. Don't usually care for seasons personally most of the time but to each their own. Far as GSF and PVP go the universe will die of heat death before I ever do those. That said, if they're serious about wanting a "variety of objectives" they need to add new stuff for people to do. As pointed out in another thread they could take some of the level caps/requirements off some already existing stuff and make a few things repeatable to take advantage of some already existing stuff, then just add in some extras as we go. Not everyone plays the game the same way or cares for the same content and they need to realize that. No amount of them trying to force people into content they hate is going to work as people will just quit the game. 

For the rep token itself they forget that they don't just magically appear in people's inventory. You actually have to go out and do something to generate them. Sometimes it's quick, sometimes it takes longer. If their concern was not enough being done for the payout it was giving, they should've made rep tokens harder to get instead of nerfing the payout and punishing players for a problem they as devs created. They've had years to fix it if they thought it was an issue, so clearly they didn't until recently for some reason until they needed a justification to nerf it. If I do 10 flashpoints, heroics or what have you to get those tokens, I've put in the work the game itself demanded of me. Whether I pop those tokens all at once or over the course of 10 days, or 10 years, I still did the work to earn them. 

If the concern was people using that objective and others to farm cartel coins on multiple servers then that's got several really simple solutions.

-1: don't give out cartel coins as a reward to start with

-2: limit it to only once per account. Such as if you're on the Star Forge server and you've claimed it, you can't go over to Satele and claim it again. To make up for the cartel coins not being there on that server they could give you some of the season currency or a season token instead that way folks still feel like they're getting something.

-3: make those cartel coins valid only for the server they're claimed on. This one might be a little more annoying to implement but if for example you claim coins on the Star Forge server, they would only be valid for the Star Forge server. You can't transfer them to Satele Shan or one of the other servers. 

Those are just a few of the solutions I could think of off the top of my head. I've created quite a few maps and mods for older games, and one or two newer ones. Whether you're developing content at the small time modder level or AAA studio level, the core concepts are the same just different in scale. One of the things I learned early on is I can't make players do what they don't want to do. I can make a map and think it's the best I've ever done, but if players don't want to play it or go through the map the way I intended, they're not going to and I can't force them to. If I try to force them they're just going to tell me where to go and not play it. I have to give them reasons to want to do it that way, such as access to a stronger weapon, extra health packs, a vantage point to pick off foes, something. If I don't want people doing something, I don't give them the option to start with. Them nerfing the rep token is like them telling people to pick between options A B and C then throwing a hissy fit because people picked C. 

What's even worse about the nerf is them trying to stealth it in like people wouldn't notice then trying to claim "oopsie we just forgot to list it". Like dude, I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night. If they really believed their mantra of "everything effecting the player needs to be communicated" they would've made sure something that important was listed in the notes and double or even triple checked before putting it out. Simply put they tried to stealth it in hoping people wouldn't notice, then got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Then when people called them on it they came on and tried to condescendingly dev-splain to us about why we're all wrong and they're right and basically saying "yeah we nerfed it, deal with it." Like no dude, just admit you got it wrong and fix it. 

I'm convince part of the reason they're dragging it out is they're hoping people will forget about it and move on if they just wait awhile. Then they can can bring it back up to maybe 15k or something as a "compromise" and pretend they've done us a favor, even though they've still stolen a ton of points from us. And if they wait long enough some of the people who have said they're going to cancel will be gone and they can try to pull the "see everyone agrees it was too much" junk like they tried to pull with with combat style changes and junk. That post of Eric's was one of the most condescending and insulting posts towards the community I've ever read. Until they give me reason to trust that they're actually listening, I have zero trust in any of these devs to keep their word about listening to people. If they're really listening this would've already been reverted and they would be telling us how they're going to close the gap between pvp and pve points without nerfing either side. 

[AFadedMemory]

1 hour ago, captainbladejk said:

Then when people called them on it they came on and tried to condescendingly dev-splain to us about why we're all wrong and they're right

I’ve seen similar comments in a few of the post I’ve read but not the actual dev-splaining. Can some quote the developer remarks on the situation?

[captainbladejk]

1 hour ago, AFadedMemory said:

I’ve seen similar comments in a few of the post I’ve read but not the actual dev-splaining. Can some quote the developer remarks on the situation?

scroll down to Eric's post in this thread: https://forums.swtor.com/topic/934145-upcoming-patch-schedule/

[Foxfirerose]

13 hours ago, Saeten said:

Why is there a delay on restoring Advance Reputation conquest points? This should have been fixed already. At least restored to 50% of the original amount imho, but I'd prefer the original amount. The offset added objectives don't make up for it and the grind is horrible for the rewards. I understand their intention of making us play longer for the same old grindy rewards as a business decision. It's intentional, It's not what they should do as they need to make the game more enjoyable for end game. At least they should communicate what is happening.

-Frustrated Founder and long time subscriber.

Devs, please just put it back the way it was.  Any other solution will not be good enough.  You can't push ;most people to play more, because we already play as much as we can.  It's not like we don't want to play .  But this change has had a bad effect on me, unfortunately.  I don't want to play now  

Another Frustrated Founder and long time subscriber

[AFadedMemory]

So, I’m not gonna lie, based on the actions of the devs for the past few months, they kinda resemble chickens running around with their heads cut off. (not trying to be gruesome but trying to express the sheer chaos of the situation ) With the decision not to have the life day unlock sale, (thank you for changing that) the bumpy server launch, and now this disconnect with the patch notes, a picture of distress has kinda been painted. I imagine the expectation the developers were use to having placed on them changed when they moved to broadsword, and now they are scrambling to hit those expectations.

Is this change an excuse for their poor performance, no. If it continues they will be out of the job. However as a player base if you nit pick everything the developer do they won’t want to work on the projects you’re involved with. This means the game will die or there will be a high dev turn over rate, which typically causes issues in the transition phase. If the transition phase never ends… I think you get the picture. At this point i don’t think they can hit those expectations without our help (truthfully that is technically always the case) 

I have two suggestions 

1.) we should stop grilling the devs for non game performance issues. I’m not saying do this forever, but give them time to mentally recover. Stress can negatively impact performance and I’m sure their actions, bosses, and player base is generating more than a healthy amount.

2.) instead of changing game mechanics to manipulate our behavior, create a goal or expectation you can share with us, then reward us for helping you hit It. This could be similar to the “if we get such and such amount of downloads we will give you these” campaigns many mobile apps do. Here’s a suggestion:

Create a 60 day subscription bundle but instead of giving cartel coins give a high quality armor set. Set a sales goal you want to hit for that item (in 60 days) then if it’s hit give the community a redeem code for an exclusive item(s) related to that armor (weapons, mount, reusable dye pack etc)

Edited March 24 by AFadedMemory

[VegaMist]

2 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

However as a player base if you nit pick everything the developer do they won’t want to work on the projects you’re involved with.

I'm just going to reference that @fabsus posted recently - it's worth reading.

------------

On getting criticism – Raph's Website (raphkoster.com)

For devs and players. Old but Gold.

 

[captainbladejk]

4 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

I have two suggestions 

1.) we should stop grilling the devs for non game performance issues. I’m not saying do this forever, but give them time to mentally recover. Stress can negatively impact performance and I’m sure their actions, bosses, and player base is generating more than a healthy amount.

2.) instead of changing game mechanics to manipulate our behavior, create a goal or expectation you can share with us, then reward us for helping you hit It. This could be similar to the “if we get such and such amount of downloads we will give you these” campaigns many mobile apps do. Here’s a suggestion:

Create a 60 day subscription bundle but instead of giving cartel coins give a high quality armor set. Set a sales goal you want to hit for that item (in 60 days) then if it’s hit give the community a redeem code for an exclusive item(s) related to that armor (weapons, mount, reusable dye pack etc)

Pulled this section out as it's the relevant section I'll be basing my response on. First though I'm glad you see the chaos and the disconnect they've had with the playerbase of late. Now to your individual suggestions. 

For suggestion 2, I've been saying this the entire time. If they want me to play more then give me things that I'll want to do. In the case of the conquest and rep token nerf, that doesn't make me want to play more, that makes me want to quit entirely and take most of my guild with me. Prior to this I was conquesting 25 toons a week by doing a few each day because my time permits currently. However now I've barely touched the game aside from helping out one or two people in the guild. If they want me to do more or do something else, they need to give me more to do and something else that I would actually like to do. Because like I said above you can't force people to play how they don't want to play. It's also not my responsibility to meet their metric quotas for them. If they want my help making a specific metric look good, then they need to earn that support. Far as I'm concerned the last going on close to 5 weeks of objectives have been absolute hot bantha droppings that either tries to force everyone into pvp, force everyone to do the gree event, or force everyone into seasons. I'm not a big fan of most of the events in game and rarely do them. If/when I do it's purely because I was helping a guildy somehow. I also don't care for seasons most of the time unless there's something that's just "OMG I must have it" on the rewards track. As for pvp, the universe will die of heat death before I ever step foot into pvp or GSF. If it came down to me doing pvp and GSF or the game shutting down, the game dies with me. I got enough of the pvp scene to last a lifetime from my WoW days and similar. 

If they want me to do more stuff and are serious about wanting a wider variety of objectives, then they can keep the pvp and season/event objectives in play for the folks who like those, but for folks like myself they can unlock certain pve objectives like rampage, story missions, and other objectives and remove the level cap/requirement from them to take advantage of some already existing objectives. Then add in some extra ones to close the gap between pvp and pve. You do not create more gameplay by taking away parts of the game. And if they're concerned about certain farming metas, you don't nerf the metas, you buff the other stuff that's not competitive. Those other things aren't competitive for a reason and you're not going to suddenly force me to do it by nerfing the thing I enjoy doing. Personally I like the idea of a special reusable dye pack. 

 

Now for suggestion 1, respectfully this is where there is a bit of disconnect on your end. I get that changing companies can be stressful, and I'm not going to go out of my way to be a jerk to the dev team. Simultaneously though, they're not the only ones who have stressful jobs, not even close. One of my guildmates is a state prison guard, and several of my other guildmates were military or police. In their jobs disorganization and making mistakes can get someone killed. I also did some volunteer work with youth groups and some missionary work for a number of years and saw some of the more screwed up side of humanity in that myself that gave me PTSD. So respectfully, do something like any of that stuff for awhile then get back to me about stress. Now I say that not to try and crap all over the team or something like that, but to demonstrate they are not the only ones who experience stress. If they're getting that stressed out then I would suggest they find different employment for their own sanity because work should never be one's life exclusively. 

With that in mind I it's not my job to walk on eggshells around their mistakes. This is a business arrangement between us and them and they are not owed support purely for existing. When a change they make negatively effects my ability or desire to play the game, they're going to hear about it and they're going to fix it to my satisfaction. If they don't then I will withdraw my support from the product and they can miss out on my cash. I can forgive honest mistakes so long as the person owns the mistake and fixes the issue. What I won't tolerate is someone trying to dump a bucket of water over me and tell me it's raining. In this instance they tried to stealth nerf a bunch of things to an incredibly huge degree hoping people wouldn't notice, got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and called out on it, then tried to say "oppsie we forgot" and then dev-splain to us why we're wrong and they're right and essentially say "yeah we nerfed it, deal with it." That's not a mistake, that's a direct slap in the face to the playerbase and our intelligence. Like no, if they weren't trying to stealth nerf things and be sneaky about it they would've made sure something like that was in the patch notes and double or even triple checked it. Eric's statements do not line up with their actions. And the blowback they've been getting is very much deserved and earned in this instance. Quite simply put that post was one of the most insulting and condescending pieces of corporate double speak I've read in a long long time. Like no you don't pull underhanded junk with your customers then double down on why you're right and they're wrong and disrespect the customers that way and not expect blowback. That's not how that works. 

Now despite my having ripped into them, I'm willing to give them a chance to make things right because when they do good, the work is spectacular and they hit it out of the park. Likewise on the opposite side of the coin man oh man when they drop the ball, they don't just drop the ball, it bounces back up and slaps them in the face. The fact that I've had many fun times playing this game with friends and guildies is why I haven't just up and left yet and I'm giving them a chance to undo their mistake and make things right. If not for that I would already be gone. I don't want to see the game tank anymore than anyone else does. But I also have to think of myself too and value my own time and effort and know when to walk away when the game demands too much of my time, effort, and money for too little return. If a game gives me equal or greater value back in entertainment I'll stick around, if it doesn't then I walk. Simple as that, this is a business arrangement. Right now as part of that arrangement I'm telling them if they don't make changes I will be withdrawing my financial support as are many others. It's not my job to think from their perspective, their job is to think from mine as they're the ones asking for my money. 

 

EDIT: Also something I forgot to add. When I was making my most successful mod for Space Engineers to date, I never intended to create anything to do with solar panels or railgun turrets or a few of the items in there. However some of the people using it wanted those items. So I swallowed my pride and added railgun turrets and more efficient solar panels. Took awhile to get them done but it was worth it to get people using the mod. As a dev, whether it's small time modder level or AAA studio level, you have to know when to swallow your pride and do something for the sake of your users/customers. You are not always right and if they're taking the time to tell you something is wrong or they don't like it, LISTEN TO THEM and be grateful for it. You're not going to agree with everything they say all the time and you're free to clarify why you did something, but just know you're not always right. And if you want people to use your stuff, you have to play to what they want. That dude telling you something is wrong could've just left silently like dude that asked me for the Solar Panels and Railgun turrets, but instead he rolled the dice and it worked out for both sides. Now I can make virtually any weapon in that game I could want from having learned how to do custom turrets. 

Edited March 24 by captainbladejk

[AFadedMemory]

17 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

So respectfully, do something like any of that stuff for awhile then get back to me about stress.

Expecting people to function at the same level as a person in a different field is unrealistic. Especially because some people pick the jobs they have because of the kind/level of stress they want or can endure. You also have to understand what causes distress for one person does not equal distress for another.  (I've worked in residential treatment where therapeutic holds had to be utilized, done missionary work, and have had several other jobs/experiences that reveal the dark and manipulating side of humanity. I know the damage stress can cause and the level of stress required to cause that damage is not the same for every person.)

17 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

With that in mind I it's not my job to walk on eggshells around their mistakes

It is my personal believe that the devs are more invested in the success and continuation of this game then most if not all the player base. If things go bad they lose their jobs and lively hoods. If things go bad players go to a different game. Swtor was produced to make money. The people who own the rights or have high investments in this game dictate what metrics the devs need to hit for this game to be run by them. Based on their chaotic behavior I imagine they are not currently hitting the expectation placed on them. It doesn't really matter what the players say if their bosses have conflicting expectations. I don't know what the metrics are. I do believe they can hit them without modify game mechanics, but only if reasonable goals are set, those goals are communicated with the community, and the community is rewarded for helping them hit those goals. The devs have said they would modify their negative behavior/working process. I'm asking the player base to give them a reprieve so they can invest more time an energy into doing that.

17 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

Now despite my having ripped into them, I'm willing to give them a chance to make things right because when they do good, the work is spectacular and they hit it out of the park

I don't have anything negative to say about this statement. However as a realist it is important to note that the change made was most likely done to affect their metrics. Therefore the devs most likely have to make a different change before they can set things "right". Unless they tell us what metric they are trying to work on and ask for our help that different change would probably produce a similar result. 

Edited March 25 by AFadedMemory

[captainbladejk]

2 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

Expecting people to function at the same level as a person in a different field is unrealistic. Especially because some people pick the jobs they have because of the kind/level of stress they want or can endure. You also have to understand what causes distress for one person does not equal distress for another.  (I've worked in residential treatment where therapeutic holds had to be utilized, done missionary work, and have had several other jobs/experiences that reveal the dark and manipulating side of humanity. I now the damage stress can cause and the level of stress required to cause that damage is not the same for every person.)

Unrealistic is thinking the devs are the only ones who can have or have ever had a stressful time. You may not have intended for you post to come off that way, but that's how your tone sounded to me. The whole reason I said what I did on that point was to demonstrate they are not the only ones to ever experience stress at their workplace, be it paid or volunteer work. Was it a little snarky or tongue in cheek how I said it, certainly. At the end of the day though, stress or not, there is work that needs to be done. Being stressed may explain some of the "why" behind a thing happening, but doesn't grant a free pass for poor performance or excuse those mistakes. There is still work that needs to be done and mistakes that need to be corrected. If an individual is so stressed out it's effecting their performance then they either need to take a break, or find a different job that's not as stressful to them. Point being, they are not the only ones who experience stress, not even close. Stress doesn't entitle one to a pass against criticism either. As said before I can forgive honest mistakes so long as the person owns them and fixes it. What I won't tolerate is someone dumping a bucket of water over my head and trying to tell me it's raining. 

2 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

It is my personal believe that the devs are more invested in the success and continuation of this game then most if not all the player base. If things go bad they lose their jobs and lively hoods. If things go bad players go to a different game. Swtor was produced to make money. The people who own the rights or have high investments in this game dictate what metrics the devs need to hit for this game to be run by them. Based on their chaotic behavior I imagine they are not currently hitting the expectation placed on them. It doesn't really matter what the players say if their bosses have conflicting expectations. I don't know what the metrics are. I do believe they can hit them without modify game mechanics, but only if reasonable goals are set, those goals are communicated with the community, and the community is rewarded for helping them hit those goals. The devs have said they would modify their negative behavior/working process. I'm asking the player base to give them a reprieve so they can invest more time an energy into doing that.

I would hope they're invested in the success of the game considering it's their job to produce it. Being invested in something doesn't magically confer correctness on someone. You can be the most invested person in the room and still be wrong. Bosses certainly have the right to set expectations for their employees, that's never been in debate here. Now where you are objectively in the wrong is the line in bold. This game, and the gaming industry as a whole are luxuries that exist purely on the grace of their customers. If the vast majority of their customers are telling them "this is wrong and this sucks" then it doesn't matter what their bosses say, their bosses are wrong. I am not their employee and it's not my job to make their metrics for them. 

Angering your customers and then doubling down on the thing that made them mad to start with is not a smart thing to do. That's a sure fire way to turn people off of your product and lose money. If they value their customers as they say then they will revert the nerf and add in additional objectives they've talked about wanting to add. Whether you're at the small time level like what I do, or AAA studio level, it doesn't matter how good you personally think you did as a dev, it matters how good your audience/customers think you did. I could produce a mod for a game and it doesn't matter how good I think I did with that mod, if my audience doesn't like it then it's not as good as I thought it was. I'm free to disagree with their criticisms, but if I want them to use the thing I have to cater to what they want. I can't make them use any of my mods, play any of my levels or so on. Same thing goes for the devs here. 

Another you don't do in content development is you don't insult your audience/customers and expect not to get blowback. Had they actually listed the nerfs in the patch notes, they would still be getting flack only alot less. All the flack they've been getting over this is earned because they tried to sneak the nerfs in, then tried to dev-splain why they're right and we're wrong when they got called out on it. Like no dude, admit you got it wrong and fix it, then we can talk about a "reprieve". They say they want more variety in objectives and they listen to their customers, I'm asking them to prove it by adding more variety of objectives and undoing the nerf. So far their actions don't match their words. 

What you need to understand is that this is a business arrangement between us and them that we are free to withdraw from at any time for any reason we wish. They are not owed our support purely for existing. They are the ones that want me to invest my time and money into their product. If they want me to invest my time and money into their product, they need to provide me with an equal or greater value in entertainment as exchange. If they don't, then I'm not going to invest my time and money. That's how the business exchange works in this instance. If an instance arises where I feel I'm not getting equal or greater entertainment value for my investment of time and money, I'm going to say "hey you need to do (insert thing or things here) if you want me to keep investing with you." From there they have a chance to change things and make things right. If they don't, then I will withdraw my investment of time and money. All the people you see speaking up and telling them they screwed up when they nerfed the rep token objective out of nowhere and need to revert the nerf, are telling them what it's going to take for them to keep their time and money invested. If they don't, they will walk. That's how business works.

3 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

I don't have anything negative to say about this statement. However as a realist it is important to note that the change made was most likely done to affect their metrics. Therefore the devs most likely have to make a different change before they can set things "right". Unless they tell us what metric they are trying to work on and ask for our help that different change would probably produce a similar result. 

See above, I'm not their employee and it's not my job to make their metrics for them. I don't care if it was metrics or if it wasn't, it's a mistake that needs to be reverted and undone. If they want me to do more grinding or spend more time doing things, they need to give me things that I want to do. No amount of them trying to strongarm me will ever make me do GSF or pvp, nor will they force me to do events or seasons if I don't want to do them. If they want more of my time than they're getting now, they need to give me things I want to spend time on. My time and money aren't free. No amount of them trying to pigeonhole or strong arm me will ever make me do GSF or pvp, or make me do seasons or events if I don't want to. You need to remember, we can survive without them, they can't survive without us. They want the criticism to stop, fix the issue to our satisfaction and it will. 

Lastly on this point, unless they have some screwed up spaghetti code, it's either a formula or a static database entry. All they have to do is change the number in the entry or update the formula to be what it was before. It's not hard and is a 5 minute fix, 10 at most. There is ZERO legitimate reason for it to be dragging on this long save them trying to be stubborn about it and double down. 

[AFadedMemory]

2 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

The whole reason I said what I did on that point was to demonstrate they are not the only ones to ever experience stress at their workplace, be it paid or volunteer work. Was it a little snarky or tongue in cheek how I said it, certainly. At the end of the day though, stress or not, there is work that needs to be done. Being stressed may explain some of the "why" behind a thing happening, but doesn't grant a free pass for poor performance or excuse those mistakes.

What is right in once situation does not equal right in every situation. This is especially true when more than one party of interest are involved. I’m not saying that the devs don’t need to modify their behavior. I’m not saying you can’t criticize what they do. I do believe that their performance would improve if they had a bit more breathing room. (From the player base and their bosses. I believe the player base would be more reasonable than their employers.) 

2 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

Now where you are objectively in the wrong is the line in bold. This game, and the gaming industry as a whole are luxuries that exist purely on the grace of their customers. If the vast majority of their customers are telling them "this is wrong and this sucks" then it doesn't matter what their bosses say, their bosses are wrong. I am not their employee and it's not my job to make their metrics for them. 

Some intellectual property rights can be lost if they’re not used. Some rights are bought and not used so others can’t compete. It is a very real possibility that EA doesn’t care about SWTOR’s performance but maintains the game to hold Star Wars MMO rights. If this is the case they won’t care about the player’s voice as long as they have the rights and other cash cows. I don’t recall EA winning any customer support or satisfaction rewards recently, yet they still make upward trending profits. The only realistic way to change their greedy behavior is to stop playing their games. I don’t think enough people would do that, myself included. I don’t want swtor to die. it’s kinda of the only video game I play. (I think most of the changes players hate have been implemented because of corporate expectation rather then devs expectations)

2 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

See above, I'm not their employee and it's not my job to make their metrics for them. I don't care if it was metrics or if it wasn't, it's a mistake that needs to be reverted and undone.

Wether it was or was not a bad business decision will depend on the metrics and the impact that change will have on the long term. Though I believe they can be more successful taking a different route. In simplicity I think peeps are getting mad at the go between instead of the actual offending party. Granted the middle man should be mindful of the impact their words and actions can have on the people keeping their project afloat. (If it’s the situation mentioned above it is not the player base. Hopefully it’s a combination of both though.)

[captainbladejk]

2 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

What is right in once situation does not equal right in every situation. This is especially true when more than one party of interest are involved. I’m not saying that the devs don’t need to modify their behavior. I’m not saying you can’t criticize what they do. I do believe that their performance would improve if they had a bit more breathing room. (From the player base and their bosses. I believe the player base would be more reasonable than their employers.) 

Define what you mean by "breathing room" and how much of it you want people to give. Because that's such a broad open ended statement that it's not even funny. To go along with this statement previously you had said the following below. 

On 3/24/2024 at 3:54 AM, AFadedMemory said:

1.) we should stop grilling the devs for non game performance issues. I’m not saying do this forever, but give them time to mentally recover. Stress can negatively impact performance and I’m sure their actions, bosses, and player base is generating more than a healthy amount.

So yes you are saying not to criticize the dev team even if only temporarily. I also find it awfully convenient you phrase it in a way that would basically tell everyone to shut up and eat the rep nerf like good little players and not question anything because it might stress the team out. As said before, sorry but stress doesn't grant you a blanket shield against criticism. "stop grilling" isn't going to get issues fixed and if anything it gives the false impression certain things are no longer an issue when they actually are. They themselves said they are listening to feedback and invited people to keep giving it to them, so your argument doesn't work here. As said prior, stress or not work still needs to be done and things need to be fixed. No one here with a brain expects them to go 24/7, but we do at least expect progress and proper fixes to issues to come in a timely manor. Once again as said before, this is a business arrangement between us and them. Per that arrangement if they wish me or anyone else to invest our time and money into their product, there are certain expectations that come along with that. One of those expectations is an equal or greater value of entertainment in return. If that doesn't happen then it means they are no longer meeting that expectation and are going to hear about it so as to give them a chance to remedy the situation. If they don't, the investment will cease. People have a right to know what is going on with their investment and how issues are going to be addressed. Again our investment of time and money is not free and if they want to keep that investment they will meet those expectations or people walk. It's as simple as that. No amount of "breathing room" will change that. 

Further if they didn't want to worry about certain criticisms, they shouldn't have disrespected their customers with that condescending post of corporate double speak and trying to tell everyone they're wrong about what they really want. In this instance the blowback they've gotten is earned. 

2 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

Some intellectual property rights can be lost if they’re not used. Some rights are bought and not used so others can’t compete. It is a very real possibility that EA doesn’t care about SWTOR’s performance but maintains the game to hold Star Wars MMO rights. If this is the case they won’t care about the player’s voice as long as they have the rights and other cash cows. I don’t recall EA winning any customer support or satisfaction rewards recently, yet they still make upward trending profits. The only realistic way to change their greedy behavior is to stop playing their games. I don’t think enough people would do that, myself included. I don’t want swtor to die. it’s kinda of the only video game I play. (I think most of the changes players hate have been implemented because of corporate expectation rather then devs expectations)

The fact that the game is still operating and there seems to be at least some bit of development or maintenance going on means the rights are being used, so what exactly was the point of bringing that up? I've been here since beta so of course I don't want to see the game die, no one here does. However simultaneously I also have to value my time and money and if my time and money aren't being respected and too much is being demanded of them for too little in return, I have to walk away. If the company doubles and even triples down and pull a Star Wars Galaxies and cause enough folks to leave and the game tanks, that's entirely on them and not us. In that scenario had they listened to the players about what they wanted they would still be in business. 

The time and money investments of customers are a privilege, not a right, something too many companies today forget. Maybe alot of folks will walk as a result of this, maybe they won't, time will tell the tale. Point being why do you think people are telling the devs to reverse course? First you say "hey you need to fix this or we're out." Then they will either fix it and everything continues on as normal. Or they'll decide not to listen and lose out on money. Welcome to business 101. 

3 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

Wether it was or was not a bad business decision will depend on the metrics and the impact that change will have on the long term. Though I believe they can be more successful taking a different route. In simplicity I think peeps are getting mad at the go between instead of the actual offending party. Granted the middle man should be mindful of the impact their words and actions can have on the people keeping their project afloat. (If it’s the situation mentioned above it is not the player base. Hopefully it’s a combination of both though.)

The most important metric is the customers and what they're telling you, everything else is secondary. If the customers like what you're doing they will bring money with them. If they don't like what you're doing, you won't get their money. If you have the vast majority of people telling you "hey this is bad" then that's the metric you need to be focusing on because that's the only one that matters. 

You're absolutely right that the words of certain people have impact, which is part of why the blowback has been as extreme as it has in some instances. They sent someone out there who basically blew everyone off and tried to say "oopsie we forgot" and then dev-splain why we know nothing compared to them, and saying one thing but doing another. Like I've said several times, don't dump a bucket of water over my head and try to tell me it's raining. Insulting your customers like that post did is a sure fire way to get some earned blowback. Had they not tried to stealth nerf it in then pull the bogus "oopsie" excuse and then doubled down on it afterwards, they wouldn't be catching as much flak as they are. This is purely their own fault dude. You can call out crappy behavior and attention to things that need to be fixed without wishing ill on the person which is what people here have done. 

[Traceguy]

There's no delay, because the nerf wasn't a bug. It was intentional. They've made several posts now all basically saying the same thing "We didn't like that, so we nerfed it"

 

Edited March 25 by Traceguy