Just end premades for solo queing

[Traceguy]

On 12/4/2023 at 8:28 PM, philwil said:

Which means, dont accept the pop they have just taken.

Wait for the next one.

On SS there is only ever 1 pop. You either play against premades and collect your conquest points, or you don't play GSF at all and give up 300,000CQP.

Edited February 12 by Traceguy

[Warped]

On 2/9/2024 at 10:59 PM, Ymris said:

I wonder what number of individual players comprises the "entire queue" for GSF.  ...

... I'd estimate that a premade group of 4 players is 10%-20% of the entire queue during "primetime" hours.  ...

Full premade groups are 8, not 4. the queues are small and there is usually only one match going on at any time. If you don't believe me, type /who in game and search for the GSF maps. The majority of the matches are 8 vs 8 or 12 vs 12. so that's either half or a third of the queue.

 

On 2/10/2024 at 4:42 PM, Toraak said:

The better question is "When is Broadsword going to take these Self Destructor's seriously and Ban them?" These types of people will get players to stop queu'ing for GSF more then premades do...

I see the same things and it's annoying, but i see a massive amount of SDing in matches against premades. people see the same players over and over and over again, and just immediately start chain SDing. when that's their competition in every single match, they see no point in playing the game. less people queue because and more people just give up on GSF because they're bound to be against a full premade and on a team of SDers. 

Edited February 13 by Warped

[Toraak]

13 minutes ago, Warped said:

Full premade groups are 8, not 4. the queues are small and there is usually only one match going on at any time. If you don't believe me, type /who in game and search for the GSF maps. The majority of the matches are 8 vs 8 or 12 vs 12. so that's either half or a third of the queue.

 

I see the same things and it's annoying, but i see a massive amount of SDing in matches against premades. people see the same players over and over and over again, and just immediately start chain SDing. when that's their competition in every single match, they see no point in playing the game. less people queue because and more people just give up on GSF because they're bound to be against a full premade and on a team of SDers. 

I see it in every match, even if there is no premade. It's not just people raging against premades. It's at least 1 individual that is simply trying to ruin the game mode for everyone else that wants to play it.

 

Also that is no excuse for Self Destructing and sabotaging matches. If your tired of going against the same people, I get it. Take a break, and don't ruin other peoples fun.

Edited February 13 by Toraak

[Anhkriva]

21 minutes ago, Warped said:

Full premade groups are 8, not 4. the queues are small and there is usually only one match going on at any time. If you don't believe me, type /who in game and search for the GSF maps. The majority of the matches are 8 vs 8 or 12 vs 12. so that's either half or a third of the queue.

 

I see the same things and it's annoying, but i see a massive amount of SDing in matches against premades. people see the same players over and over and over again, and just immediately start chain SDing. when that's their competition in every single match, they see no point in playing the game. less people queue because and more people just give up on GSF because they're bound to be against a full premade and on a team of SDers. 

May I ask what server you play on? I play on Malgus, doing daily/weekly GSF on 3 characters, and I rarely see intentional self-destruction. If it does happen, it will only happen at the very end of the match with a huge advantage of 40-5 or similar, so that the match ends faster. I don't remember a single case where people started crashing from the beginning of the match.

[Toraak]

20 minutes ago, Anhkriva said:

May I ask what server you play on? I play on Malgus, doing daily/weekly GSF on 3 characters, and I rarely see intentional self-destruction. If it does happen, it will only happen at the very end of the match with a huge advantage of 40-5 or similar, so that the match ends faster. I don't remember a single case where people started crashing from the beginning of the match.

It's been bad on Star Forge for the last week or 2.

[Darkestmonty]

On 2/9/2024 at 10:59 PM, Ymris said:

I wonder what number of individual players comprises the "entire queue" for GSF.  It isn't like "other games" or "other PvP modes" because really the only people playing GSF are those who really want to fly Star Wars ships around in dogfighting in SWTOR.  Which sounds niche, right?

I'd estimate that a premade group of 4 players is 10%-20% of the entire queue during "primetime" hours.  I base this on the number of times I see the same names repeatedly in a 3-ish hour session of solo queueing.  Personally I love solo queueing because even if I get shredded by premades I'm still flying purple freaking tie fighters shooting purple freaking lasers which is purple freaking cool.

So, whether or not that "small group" can "hold the entire queue ransom" is actually debatable.

I'm not on either side, I'm merely pointing out relevant facts for all of us to consider.  Pretty much my MO in life.  Cheers.

a premade team of 3-4 of the better pilots can easily dominate GSF on any server all night long considering how low skill most players are.

If you want semi-fair games for GSF or any PvP you have to have separate queues for solo and premade.

 

Edited February 17 by Darkestmonty

[StrixHiraeth]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:00 AM, sharpenedstick said:

GSF has a high barrier to entry, so it is particularly sensitive to player attrition. MMOs, as a rule, also trend towards decreasing players as they age. These two factors combined are already not great.

But compounding the issue is the GSF experience right now is being heavily impacted by the overall low quality of games, thanks in large part to premades, afker/suiciders and the poor matchmaker. It's also a dead-end system that hasn't been integrated into the rest of the game very well, doesn't receive any content updates (aside from incredibly infrequent stat tweaks) and hasn't had any new rewards in years.

This says it all.  I've put some thought into this lately and I have spent time solo queueing on each server during that server's peak hours.  Only SF and DM have reliable pops.

My conclusion is that premades are causing player attrition, and I think that is the main point to consider.  Other factors contribute to this attrition, but our own behavior is the only one we can really influence.

When a premade is queueing, many players who prefer solo queueing aren't having fun -- because they can't play at all, not because of stats of any sort.  The most unfun thing that can happen in a game is being unable to play.

It's highly unlikely that any players are going to put in the time and effort to "git gud" and challenge the existing cliques.  It's also unlikely that many players are going to join said cliques.

So, to those who enjoy flying grouped:  please, please, spend some time queueing solo or in smaller groups.  Most of us don't care about stats, we just want a chance to play too.

Edited February 18 by Ymris

[StrixHiraeth]

I dunno if anyone heard my plea, but I didn't see nearly as many (4-man or larger) premades last week and I believe there was more fun all around as a result.

Note, I am not opposed to premades or discord in GSF.  But it is true that sometimes these things make it unfun for those who would prefer (for whatever reason) not to play that way.

So, thanks!

[Darkestmonty]

On 2/26/2024 at 10:59 AM, StrixHiraeth said:

I dunno if anyone heard my plea, but I didn't see nearly as many (4-man or larger) premades last week and I believe there was more fun all around as a result.

Note, I am not opposed to premades or discord in GSF.  But it is true that sometimes these things make it unfun for those who would prefer (for whatever reason) not to play that way.

So, thanks!

probably just PvP season starting up. They are busy playing in warzones rather than GSF.

[Toraak]

On 2/18/2024 at 2:44 PM, StrixHiraeth said:

This says it all.  I've put some thought into this lately and I have spent time solo queueing on each server during that server's peak hours.  Only SF and DM have reliable pops.

My conclusion is that premades are causing player attrition, and I think that is the main point to consider.  Other factors contribute to this attrition, but our own behavior is the only one we can really influence.

When a premade is queueing, many players who prefer solo queueing aren't having fun -- because they can't play at all, not because of stats of any sort.  The most unfun thing that can happen in a game is being unable to play.

It's highly unlikely that any players are going to put in the time and effort to "git gud" and challenge the existing cliques.  It's also unlikely that many players are going to join said cliques.

So, to those who enjoy flying grouped:  please, please, spend some time queueing solo or in smaller groups.  Most of us don't care about stats, we just want a chance to play too.

I think your mistaken. It's the bad behavior of the Self Destructors that are chasing people away from the game. Why play when you look at the names at the beginning of the match and already know your team mate is going to Sabotage your chances of winning. 

 

I have flown less in the last 2 weeks because every time I do I get stuck with such players. The only way I'd even consider flying now is if I am in a premade, so I have a chance to counter such players.

 

I've done a lot of solo queu'ing in the last few months, and it is very common now to have such people sabotaging matches every day all day long. For me personally as someone that has done plenty of Solo queu's (and group queu's) over the years, such bad behavior is what is driving me away from GSF or driving me to group far more often.

Edited March 5 by Toraak

[Anhkriva]

8 minutes ago, Toraak said:

I think your mistaken. It's the bad behavior of the Self Destructors that are chasing people away from the game.

If what discourages players from GSF were Self Destructors, then on Malgus we would have match after match without any waiting, at any hour, because I only know the self destructors people write about from the forum. The last few points with TDM happen, but that's it.

20 minutes ago, Toraak said:

Why play when you look at the names at the beginning of the match and already know your team mate is going to Sabotage your chances of winning. 

There are players who can win TDM matches alone, they regularly score 25-30:1 K/D. Why play when I see someone's name and I already know that I will win if he is with me or I will lose if he is with my opponents? If anything, such ace pilots or groups of just good players who completely dominate discourage casual players or provoke them to rage quit and not come back.

I play 50/50 for tech frags and for fun, so I will play anyway, but a casual player who just wants to fly or a new player who wants to try for the first time will be immediately discouraged.

[StrixHiraeth]

I'm confident SD'ers are far less of a deterrent to playing the game than being blown up over and over.  SD'ers suck, no doubt -- but it's still possible to play even if they cost you the match.

I want to clarify:  many of us don't care about wins/losses or tech frags or conquest.  We just want to play, even if we're not great pilots or we can't/won't use voice chat.  That's the perspective I'm coming from.

Edited March 5 by StrixHiraeth

[Toraak]

25 minutes ago, StrixHiraeth said:

I want to clarify:  many of us don't care about wins/losses or tech frags or conquest.  We just want to play, even if we're not great pilots or we can't/won't use voice chat.  That's the perspective I'm coming from.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Some players like yourself might feel this way, but from my experience people mainly fly either because of the rewards, conquest, or they actually do want to win matches. Even for Conquest or frags Wins are better then losing because Wins x2.

[Darkestmonty]

On 3/5/2024 at 12:55 PM, Toraak said:

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Some players like yourself might feel this way, but from my experience people mainly fly either because of the rewards, conquest, or they actually do want to win matches. Even for Conquest or frags Wins are better then losing because Wins x2.

self destructing in deathmatch can end the game in about than 2-5 minutes.

Dragging out a game for 10-15 minutes and losing is not faster. Dragging out a game for 10-15 minutes even if you win is not faster.

There is zero chance at winning against a premade team of ace pilots that have been dominating GSF all night long which leaves self destructing as the fastest way, by far, to end a game quickly for the 1 point in dailies and weeklies.

Edited March 6 by Darkestmonty

[StrixHiraeth]

On 3/5/2024 at 10:55 AM, Toraak said:

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Some players like yourself might feel this way, but from my experience people mainly fly either because of the rewards, conquest, or they actually do want to win matches. Even for Conquest or frags Wins are better then losing because Wins x2.

Players are motivated by different rewards, sure.  Plenty of us just enjoy the dogfighting gameplay.  We're the ones who queue GSF even when we don't have a daily/weekly in our mission log -- literally just for the fun of it.

I assure you, we're out there.

Edit:  I want to clarify again:  I am in no way calling for an end to premades.  My point is and shall remain: more people will have more fun if there are times without a premade in the queue (including those who enjoy flying grouped/voiced) because the matches will be more varied.  Personally, I like big chaotic unpredictable battles and I don't see many of them anymore.

And it should go without saying, but I'm entirely opposed to SD'ers.  I don't mention it here because I'm certain SD'ers don't use this forum.  The current "vote-kick" system isn't optimal (my beef with it is, the "not contributing" often causes un-fun in the form of obligatory spawn camping) but I haven't been able to think of a better way to address it.

Edited March 6 by StrixHiraeth

[Traceguy]

On 2/13/2024 at 9:35 AM, Anhkriva said:

May I ask what server you play on? I play on Malgus, doing daily/weekly GSF on 3 characters, and I rarely see intentional self-destruction.

If I am lucky, I get in 5 GSF matches per week on Satele Shan, and I too have never seen intentional self-destructions. Either way, I'm just happy to be there. I play GSF for the rewards (which requires a minimum of 5 matches...wins not required)

[Deadria]

anybody who self destructs to end matches faster should just stop playing.......if you are too bad at video games that you cant learn to get good than this isnt the game for you....go play pac-man or pong.....

 

[DakhathKilrathi]

On 3/6/2024 at 2:25 PM, StrixHiraeth said:

I don't mention it here because I'm certain SD'ers don't use this forum. 

at least one of them does and he makes sure to suggest it in even unrelated threads. see the post above yours.

Edited March 15 by DakhathKilrathi

[Darkestmonty]

21 hours ago, DakhathKilrathi said:

at least one of them does and he makes sure to suggest it in even unrelated threads. see the post above yours.

I promote self destructing because it is the most efficient way to finish dailies and weeklies and that needs to change.

Dailies and weeklies in all pvp should be merit based with a slight bonus on win or loss, not completely based on win or loss.

Because of the current structure of win or loss only, if you notice the same players or premade group that gets 15-20 kills a game every game on the opposing side, it's faster to self destruct and end the game immediately or ignore capturing any satellites.

Nothing against the rules against self destructing and sometimes players need to do this just to stay in the game because they aren't hitting enemies enough to reset the auto-kick AFK timer.

What imbalances games more than premades, especially in GSF, and what does that imbalance do for those grinding dailies and weeklies?

Edited March 16 by Darkestmonty

[Deadria]

how about you actually get good instead of being a loser that needs his "dailies"....nobody gives a crap about your dailies....we wanna have fun in a game we have played for years to get good at....either stop being bad at video games or find something else to play instead of being toxic and being one of the people that everyone hates.  nobody complains about premades nearly as much as they do SDers. And it does actually violate the rules....which is why so many people have gotten accounts banned. I personally have gotten at least 5 ppl banned for SDing and multiboxing

[Toraak]

2 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

I promote self destructing because it is the most efficient way to finish dailies and weeklies and that needs to change.

Dailies and weeklies in all pvp should be merit based with a slight bonus on win or loss, not completely based on win or loss.

Because of the current structure of win or loss only, if you notice the same players or premade group that gets 15-20 kills a game every game on the opposing side, it's faster to self destruct and end the game immediately or ignore capturing any satellites.

Nothing against the rules against self destructing and sometimes players need to do this just to stay in the game because they aren't hitting enemies enough to reset the auto-kick AFK timer.

What imbalances games more than premades, especially in GSF, and what does that imbalance do for those grinding dailies and weeklies?

Harassing other players is definitely against the ToS, and SD'ing and sabotaging matches is definitely harassing your other team mates.

 

So yes Intentionally SD'ing and sabotaging GSF matches is 100% against the Terms of Service.

[Darkestmonty]

17 hours ago, Toraak said:

Harassing other players is definitely against the ToS, and SD'ing and sabotaging matches is definitely harassing your other team mates.

 

So yes Intentionally SD'ing and sabotaging GSF matches is 100% against the Terms of Service.

if we want to go the route of "playing the way I don't like is tantamount to harassment", lets include DPS farming while ignoring objectives as harassment.

Until the devs take action against self destruction or changes the game so it benefits players to play and participate even in losing games, self destructing isn't harassment.

Edited March 17 by Darkestmonty

[StrixHiraeth]

23 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

I promote self destructing because it is the most efficient way to finish dailies and weeklies and that needs to change.

Dailies and weeklies in all pvp should be merit based with a slight bonus on win or loss, not completely based on win or loss.

Never thought about that, but I can't argue with you.  It is the "most efficient" way to do those missions.

But it does create unfun -- this is also unarguable.  

23 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

What imbalances games more than premades, especially in GSF, and what does that imbalance do for those grinding dailies and weeklies?

Seems to me that repeatedly losing to premades or having SD'ers on your team both have the same effect on daily/weekly completion:  it takes more matches.

It's hard to say which is more unfun.  I guess most SD'ers will stop queueing once dailies/weeklies are complete?  So, ideally, their unfun is a temporary albeit a daily occurrence.  On the other hand, if a premade is totally dominating the queue it can go on interminably (and as I've said before, being unable to play at all is the worst kind of unfun)... but unlike SD'ing this type of thing doesn't happen every day.

Honestly it's been weeks since I've seen a premade dominating the queue like that.  But I have been seeing more SD'ing shenanigans (including a multiboxer one night - very strange to witness).  Presently, I'd have to say SD'ing is causing more unfun than premades.

However, I've had more good matches than bad lately in terms of fun (e.g., pilot behavior has had less effect on fun than previously).  Pretty sure it's because of the Galactic Season.  Has me thinking:  more than a consensus about premades or SD'ing or etc, what GSF needs is more pilots... and that with enough pilots, everyone could fly however they want and there would still be more fun than unfun.

Edited March 17 by StrixHiraeth

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, StrixHiraeth said:

Never thought about that, but I can't argue with you.  It is the "most efficient" way to do those missions.

But it does create unfun -- this is also unarguable.  

Seems to me that repeatedly losing to premades or having SD'ers on your team both have the same effect on daily/weekly completion:  it takes more matches.

It's hard to say which is more unfun.  I guess most SD'ers will stop queueing once dailies/weeklies are complete?  So, ideally, their unfun is a temporary albeit a daily occurrence.  On the other hand, if a premade is totally dominating the queue it can go on interminably (and as I've said before, being unable to play at all is the worst kind of unfun)... but unlike SD'ing this type of thing doesn't happen every day.

Honestly it's been weeks since I've seen a premade dominating the queue like that.  But I have been seeing more SD'ing shenanigans (including a multiboxer one night - very strange to witness).  Presently, I'd have to say SD'ing is causing more unfun than premades.

However, I've had more good matches than bad lately in terms of fun (e.g., pilot behavior has had less effect on fun than previously).  Pretty sure it's because of the Galactic Season.  Has me thinking:  more than a consensus about premades or SD'ing or etc, what GSF needs is more pilots... and that with enough pilots, everyone could fly however they want and there would still be more fun than unfun.

 

A normal Deathmatch can last 14 minutes and the first team to hit 50 points wins.

A player can SD every 15 seconds; 11 seconds to respawn with about 4 seconds to load.

That's 4 deaths every minute.

One SDer can end a game in 12.5 minutes if no one else on their team dies. Two SDers can end the game in 6.25 minutes, and three can end the game in a little over 4 minutes.... if no one else on your team is dying.

What really happens is 1-2 SDers will cut a game time down to about 4-5 minutes with all the deaths from the premade group/elite pilots who swear they aren't on a premade team but happen to keep getting on the same team over and over and over again.

We can all drag out a losing game for 14 minutes or end the losing game in 5 minutes or less.

My choice is either 1 weekly point every 14 minutes of game play or about 3 weekly points in that same amount of game play.

Counting win or loss as the only measure for earning daily or weekly points makes drawing out a game when you know you are going to lose pointless.

Edited March 17 by Darkestmonty

[Toraak]

59 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

 

A normal Deathmatch can last 14 minutes and the first team to hit 50 points wins.

A player can SD every 15 seconds; 11 seconds to respawn with about 4 seconds to load.

That's 4 deaths every minute.

One SDer can end a game in 12.5 minutes if no one else on their team dies. Two SDers can end the game in 6.25 minutes, and three can end the game in a little over 4 minutes.... if no one else on your team is dying.

What really happens is 1-2 SDers will cut a game time down to about 4-5 minutes with all the deaths from the premade group/elite pilots who swear they aren't on a premade team but happen to keep getting on the same team over and over and over again.

We can all drag out a losing game for 14 minutes or end the losing game in 5 minutes or less.

My choice is either 1 weekly point every 14 minutes of game play or about 3 weekly points in that same amount of game play.

Counting win or loss as the only measure for earning daily or weekly points makes drawing out a game when you know you are going to lose pointless.

For all your complaining about Premades, it's people like you that get people to want to group up. People are tired of solo queu'ing and getting stuck with people like YOU on the same team making it harder for them to win, because your SD'ing is losing them matches. They group up to counter your ability to sabotage the matches they're in.

 

People like you are exactly the reason many people may group up MORE. I know when I solo queu and get stuck with people like you, all it does is frustrate me, until I've had enough. Then look for experienced pilots to join me. Then finally I can have some fun, because I don't have to worry about your kind sabotaging matches on me.