Just end premades for solo queing

[Warped]

Premades completely ruin this mode. if you queue solo, then you should be against people that only solo queue. Premades should only face other premades. More people will queue if they know they won't won't be steam-rolled by a full premade group match after match after match. it immediately makes people quit playing. 

[Levanchar]

There are pilots out there who are good enough to steam-roll most players even if they solo queue. What will you do then?

[SeedlesS]

You're gonna get premades to rookies not matter form of PvP you play in any game, either get better or don't play when they do. 

[Warped]

6 hours ago, SeedlesS said:

...either get better or don't play when they do. 

so a small group can hold the entire queue ransom? durr dee duur GeT beTTer

 

[Warped]

7 hours ago, Levanchar said:

There are pilots out there who are good enough to steam-roll most players even if they solo queue. What will you do then?

I fly with and against them all the time. those matches are fun. 

[sharpenedstick]

The reason to remove premades from solo queue isn't because it will guarantee that all games are good. But rather, it will reduce the factors that lead to increased bad games.

Premades are more likely to lead to lopsided matches. Lopsided matches are bad for the game. Therefore, premades are bad for the game. It is unfortunate that some people will lose out on the fun of playing with people they know, and the fun of getting easy wins, but it's better for the overall health of the game if premades are not in solo queue.

Instead, we should allow players to be in solo queue with one other person, and also create premade v premade queue. We all know premade v premade queue isn't going to pop, because the reality is premades don't want to play against other premades, but hey, it'll exist.

Also, inb4 "FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!!!!111!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!1"

Yes, it is also necessary to improve the matchmaker generally. But that is a much harder ask than simply removing premades from solo queue.

[Toraak]

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

The reason to remove premades from solo queue isn't because it will guarantee that all games are good. But rather, it will reduce the factors that lead to increased bad games.

Premades are more likely to lead to lopsided matches. Lopsided matches are bad for the game. Therefore, premades are bad for the game. It is unfortunate that some people will lose out on the fun of playing with people they know, and the fun of getting easy wins, but it's better for the overall health of the game if premades are not in solo queue.

Instead, we should allow players to be in solo queue with one other person, and also create premade v premade queue. We all know premade v premade queue isn't going to pop, because the reality is premades don't want to play against other premades, but hey, it'll exist.

Also, inb4 "FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!!!!111!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!1"

Yes, it is also necessary to improve the matchmaker generally. But that is a much harder ask than simply removing premades from solo queue.

There are also reason's why players group up. One of the main reason's now for people to make a premade is to make sure that you have at least a couple of players that want to win, and to counter all of the Self Destructor's and AFK'ers that infest GSF over the last 6-12 months.

 

I do make groups (smaller ones usually of 2-4), however we don't stomp the queu for a long period of time. If we see we're winning way to easily we either split up, or we logout. Most of the time If I see we're winning to easily I'll do 2-3 matches and go do something else. But this is just me personally.

 

To me the problem is with the people that just keep Curb stomping the queu, not specifically in Premades are the problem itself. It's the mentality of some of the premades which is the problem.

 

My personal suggestion (as much as I hate admitting it) is remove the 5-8 man premade option which was introduced in 7.2. Perhaps it is time to remove that 8 man premade from both PvP, and GSF. Perhaps making it a maximum of 4 should help fix much of the problem.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Toraak

[sharpenedstick]

36 minutes ago, Toraak said:

To me the problem is with the people that just keep Curb stomping the queu, not specifically in Premades are the problem itself. It's the mentality of some of the premades which is the problem.

The problem is lopsided games. There are many reasons for them, including, but not limited to griefers (afk/suiciding), matchmaker failures and yes, premades.

The goal is to reduce the number of lopsided games. This means addressing all of the above which, yes, includes premades.

I don't doubt that out there amongst the ranks of the curbstompers there's one or two decent people who just want to play with friends and are looking for truly epic competitive team experiences. But the needs of the many outweigh the needs of those unicorns.

[Warped]

i can not tell you how many times i get a queue pop and be the 1st or 2nd one in on my side, only have the other side be fully populated with the same exact premade group that i was against in the match i just got out of. it is CONSTANT and happens day after day after day

Edited December 4, 2023 by Warped

[Toraak]

2 hours ago, sharpenedstick said:

The problem is lopsided games. There are many reasons for them, including, but not limited to griefers (afk/suiciding), matchmaker failures and yes, premades.

The goal is to reduce the number of lopsided games. This means addressing all of the above which, yes, includes premades.

I don't doubt that out there amongst the ranks of the curbstompers there's one or two decent people who just want to play with friends and are looking for truly epic competitive team experiences. But the needs of the many outweigh the needs of those unicorns.

Lopsided games are going to happen regardless. I've solo queu'd so many times over the years, and I'm going to be perfectly blunt. Solo queu can just as easily have lopsided games as being in a premade. I've done 1000-0 matches when solo queu'd and I could tell my team had no premade in it.

 

As for Star Forge. Not many premades that I know of run that often, and grouping with friends for 2-3 matches isn't really the problem your speaking of. It's those that keep doing it for hours on end.

[sharpenedstick]

I said "the goal is to REDUCE lopsided games" (emphasis added since, you know, it wasn't comprehended). Premades are one of the factors that leads to an increase in lopsided game likelihood.

Fix the other factors? Definitely! But fix premades.

[Toraak]

I'd still make the point of not allowing people to fly with Friends in an MMO would cost Broadsword as well. People play MMO's to play with others, not solo queu. With that being said, there is no need to allow 8 man premades. Force those groups to a maximum of 4, and they may actually have to fight each other. I'd even be fine with only allowing people to do 2 man groups.

 

Edit: you also want to fix premades, then fix the Suicider/afk problem 1st. This will also get some people to solo queu more often.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Toraak

[sharpenedstick]

You're right that it will cost some people some fun. There's no denying that. No fix is a free lunch. Someone always loses out. The point is that the majority of players are not in premades, so this will improve the game for more people than it harms. Though also, I'm not saying remove premades from the game. Just from solo queue. If premades want to fight each other, they can all day in premade queue. Except we all know premades don't want to do that.

Again, "FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!!!!111!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!1" is not an argument with any validity. Fixing griefers and improving the matchmaker are also things that need to happen. But so is getting premades out of solo queue.

Edited December 4, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Warped]

26 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

You're right that it will cost some people some fun. There's no denying that. No fix is a free lunch. Someone always loses out. The point is that the majority of players are not in premades, so this will improve the game for more people than it harms. Though also, I'm not saying remove premades from the game. Just from solo queue. If premades want to fight each other, they can all day in premade queue. Except we all know premades don't want to do that.

Again, "FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!!!!111!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!1" is not an argument with any validity. Fixing griefers and improving the matchmaker are also things that need to happen. But so is getting premades out of solo queue.

perfectly stated. incase anyone can't read the title of this thread:

 "JUST END PREMADES FOR SOLO QUEING"

[DakhathKilrathi]

ain't even six months since the last thread like this i'm going to just quote my own quotes

yes i know you're claiming you aren't using the same logic against solo players but why not? it's literally the same argument anyway with that out of the way time to rehash my rehash: 

--------- 

As a solo player: lol what premades i know of like two 

Also as a solo player: https://i.imgur.com/y6cubaz.png

Here's me changing the outcome of a match. By myself. I end up making a good chunk of games lopsided too. If we follow the same logic used against premades, isn't allowing me to queue also unfair?

Also, if I pick up a few people who are less experienced so I can essentially tank for them, isn't that a good thing? 

And now since I feel like being lazy I'm just going to quote myself from one of the other threads I've wasted time in on this. Insert Broadsword instead of Bioware.

 

Quote

Here's a summary of my stance on the issue:

 

Groups are fine. There is a matchmaking problem where there aren't enough comparable groups or players of similar skill to put against the groups. This could be addressed with better matchmaking, since number of games played is a silly metric that doesn't tell you very much at all about how good a player is. Mastered vs not is even less useful, especially with requisition being so easy to come by.

 

Playing with your friends in an MMO is never wrong.

 

I agree that there is a matchmaking problem, but I see it as Bioware's problem to fix; it's not up to the players. Telling people not to group because it's too hard to beat them if they do is just like telling someone not to play because they're so much better than the randoms that it's not fair if they do.

 

Same argument, different application of it.

 

Your fun isn't the other team's responsibility. I don't like to solo queue against groups. So I... don't. It's a really easy solution.

 

Edited to add: There is a reason that matchmaker puts you into a group. It's because the game is intended to be played by a group. You just decide whether or not you want to pick who is part of that group.

And the all-important: 

 

Quote

GSF is a group game. You decide whether or not you want to choose who is in your group. You don't have to, but you will be in a group regardless. Matchmaking is essentially RNG, so even if what you are suggesting was reasonable (and it's not), it wouldn't work.

 

Games would still end up lopsided even if you somehow got the devs to implement this terrible idea. See above. I have other examples, too!
https://i.imgur.com/Rxz0nUD.png or 
https://i.imgur.com/NUymy3C.png
And my personal favorite: 
https://i.imgur.com/1prQOi1.png

I especially like this one for showing how lopsided a game can be with solo players. Removing premades does not solve your problem, and in fact removes one of the ways that less experienced players might be better able to deal with me or players like me. 


----

Okay rehash over but a point I want to repeat, I guess: I like to help people who are newer or inexperienced out by grouping with them. In doing so I'm effectively tanking for them as I draw attention away, and it makes it easier to learn. Groups are not always bad, and most groups you actually see in game now are just friends hanging out. 

Yes, even the ones that are better than you. Why not get some of your friends in a group to answer it when you think you're seeing it? 

Edited December 4, 2023 by DakhathKilrathi

[Warped]

with all due respect, a full premade against a bunch of solo queing players, is never fun. there will always be blow outs, but being up against full premades every single time makes people not want to play GSF.

 

also, if I solo queue, I get put up against a premade,

If i make a premade..... I GET PUT UP AGAIST A PREMADE

Edited December 4, 2023 by Warped

[DakhathKilrathi]

16 minutes ago, Warped said:

but being up against full premades every single time

Where does this happen? Because at least on Starforge premades are just not that common. Good premades are even more rare. There's like one and a half, and the one doesn't play all that often. 

[sharpenedstick]

27 minutes ago, Warped said:

with all due respect, a full premade against a bunch of solo queing players, is never fun. there will always be blow outs, but being up against full premades every single time makes people not want to play GSF.

 

also, if I solo queue, I get put up against a premade,

If i make a premade..... I GET PUT UP AGAIST A PREMADE

Honestly, it's best not to bother when someone is entrenched.

Premade defenses boil down to two tired mantras:

1. Make your own premade.

2. FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!!!!111!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!1

You'll notice they will never address the logical foundation of the argument that reducing factors that lead to lopsided games is good for the overall experience. Everyone knows removing premades from solo queue will decrease the number of curbstomps.

But not everyone wants to reduce the number of curbstomps.

[Warped]

Just now, sharpenedstick said:

Honestly, it's best not to bother when someone is entrenched.

Premade defenses boil down to two tired mantras:

1. Make your own premade.

2. FIX PREMADE NO FIX EVERYTHING NO FIX PREMADE!!!!!111!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!1

You'll notice they will never address the logical foundation of the argument that reducing factors that lead to lopsided games is good for the overall experience. Everyone knows removing premades from solo queue will decrease the number of curbstomps.

But not everyone wants to reduce the number of curbstomps.

agreed:

kick. premades. from. solo. queueing.

[philwil]

I know what you are thinking.

End premades would make the matches better.

TBH, if they banned that, there would likely be less pops.

As few and far between as some servers already are, it wouldnt be a good thing.

Solo queue is best, but if its between going against a premade or less or no pops.

I dont mind grouped people.  Its just, how long they continue to be grouped that is the issue.

Particularly, when they know they are crushing everything.

It is a group game after all.

As with slicing and all, its part of the game.

[sharpenedstick]

20 minutes ago, philwil said:

TBH, if they banned that, there would likely be less pops.

Doubtless being deprived of easy wins would cause some premaders to quit GSF entirely, and that is unfortunate.

But I'd rather have one close game than two curbstomps. People who defend premades (who are mostly premaders, but not all) are fine with it the other way around.

If queue times lengthen, but the games are better, ultimately that is more likely to lead to sustainable activity, and maybe even growth, than the current environment of premades and suiciders.

Saying "this is a group game" does not really help your cause. I also care about a group, except in my case, the group is the entire population of GSF users. I prioritize their experience over the small number of roflstompers.

Edited December 4, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Warped]

1 hour ago, philwil said:

TBH, if they banned that, there would likely be less pops.

there would be more people playing GSF because regular solo queers wouldn't be running up against premades constantly. 

[Toraak]

1 hour ago, Warped said:

there would be more people playing GSF because regular solo queers wouldn't be running up against premades constantly. 

Proof of this? A lot of people like doing PvP activities whether GSF or PvP grouped with friends. I happen to both queu grouped and solo often. If I see I need backup if I want to win I'm sure going to either Group up or stop queu'ing. 

 

If I could not group at all for GSF, I'd ignore it.

[Lord_Malganus]

In Warzones, Solo and SM players there solely for daily/weekly rewards have figured out the in an out, AFK way to offset PvP design focus being on Pre-mades.

Eventually GSF players will figure it out as well.

[philwil]

13 minutes ago, Lord_Malganus said:

In Warzones, Solo and SM players there solely for daily/weekly rewards have figured out the in an out, AFK way to offset PvP design focus being on Pre-mades.

Eventually GSF players will figure it out as well.

its called having less population