This is fascinating to read. Pretty sure the debate started when I suggested it's incumbent on players, not devs, to grow the GSF playerbase.

Yesterday, an ace pilot was demonstrating some things for my team and got "vote-kicked". There are matches when I have trouble scoring a hit -- I find EMP field (type one scout, type 3 bomber) to be a good way to avoid the "vote" kick. It does a slight amount of damage to nearby ships.

OP, sometimes my UI options randomly seem to change. I keep flytext and most of the HUD turned off for GSF but occasionally I have to turn it off again. Maybe your display settings changed?

I stand corrected. Thanks for that post... I never thought about the game (or games) that way.

OP: Excellent point about the need for experiential vs. instructive skill attainment in GSF. I agree, it is one of those things that is best learned by doing; admittedly, a trial by fire. But it's so much fun once you come out the other side! And surely you can understand why your first post seemed dismissive to me. Glad I was wrong. Cheers.

It's not up to the devs to bring people in, it's up to us players. GSF is beloved mode by a lot more people than two hands can count, and for good reason. You shouldn't be so dismissive of it. If you are interested in it, reaching out to the GSF community for advice or just moral support will avail you. The same people you mentioned with fully upgraded ships and years of experience under their belts are a resource for you, not adversaries. I can't link anything here because reasons but there is a general GSF discord and multiple up-to-date guides available. I'm sure someone else will link something(s) here or at least tell you what they are called. Right, guys? We'd love to have you. Come fly our deadly skies (tm). Edit: It would help an awful lot if the devs could fix a bug or two. Especially the blaster upgrade deselection bug.

It's fairly active on Star Forge. I'm told it's still a thing on Darth Malgus as well. Matches seem very rare on the other servers. Glad to have you!

We should remember that in GSF's heyday there were multiple guilds (and guildless) fielding multiple "premades" most of the time and matches when it was group vs group,, while typically oppressive for low-skill players, were some of the best fun ever had in gaming. The only reason "premades" (and SD'ers, and etc) have so much effect nowadays is the overall low number of pilots. I don't think grouping should be disabled. At its heart, GSF is designed for group play (if you've ever teamed up with a partner where one of you has ion weaps and the other has... other weaps... you know what I mean). When the population is large, all sorts of behaviors can be accommodated. But that was then, and this is now. Now, attracting new pilots and retaining existing pilots is the most important need for GSF. Perhaps separate queues for solo and grouped pilots is a good idea. I certainly think GSF should be consolidated somehow, e.g. having a single GSF server, because as it stands people who aren't on Star Forge (or, allegedly, Darth Malgus) don't even have an option to play GSF at all. I also think there should be incentive-based rewards, separate from any other game system; perhaps pilots get tech frags for medals or something. I also think CC costs for cosmetics should be lowered and/or unlocks should be legacy/account-wide. Bug fix for blaster upgrade deselection. Those are the best ideas I've heard/had for increasing or maintaining pilot population. ...I'd say the matchmaker needs work but it has been far more broken than this in the past (anyone remember when having a lot of ship or fleet requisition meant being skipped by most queue pops?). Some things just shouldn't be messed with anymore. Some day when I'm up to it I hope to capitalize on grouping to orchestrate other "modes" in GSF -- competitions other than TDM and domination. Things like races, 1v1's/2v2's, car shows in space, etc (these things used to happen occasionally back in the heyday). One competition mode I have in mind would be seeing how long a lone pilot can survive against a premade of 2-4 aces. Plenty of other ideas too. Some day!

I knew other people understand! In another thread I asserted that "premades" can contribute to player attrition in GSF. I don't think grouping needs to be completely avoided, I just think aces shouldn't always fly grouped. And I'm pretty sure my plea was actually heard because "premades" haven't been showing up all that much lately. Heard by players like you, maybe. Also, kudos to OP. I hadn't thought about it taking courage to put yourself out here like this. Cheers.

I do see your point -- it's a valid beef. But, I think it's an issue with game design rather than player behavior.

Not to be negative, but I think some of us do have a skill ceiling. Even before I got sick, I made my peace with being as good as I'm going to get. I'm above average and I am very good at staying alive but not so great at scoring kills. Sure, I could study and practice and drill. A larger monitor would probably help a lot. My ships aren't really built to be competitive (my favorite thing is to fly fast!). But I'm okay with where I'm at. Don't beat yourself up and don't give up!

So you DO care about fun in gameplay, and not just "efficiency". And if I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that premades are the primary cause of unfun in GSF and that SD'ing is the only appropriate solution. I just can't agree. Can't losing matches still be fun (example: I think it's a blast when I'm up against a premade and 4+ of them have to pay attention to me to take me down)? Doesn't SWTOR offer other (less efficient) ways of getting daily/weekly points or tech frags or whatever? Do you really think that creating more unfun is going to lead to anything good?

type 1 scout with max evasion and max speed. Zoom zoom. Your mileage may vary. But that's my counter for everything. Seriously though - like others have said the only thing you can really do about remote slicing is be cognizant of positioning and power management.

Agree -- lots of piledrivers and most of them are deadly. My preferred counters to it: -type 1 scout with max evasion (counters all primary weaps and railguns too!) -type 3 SF with max self-heals -any ship and avoid "jousting" - heavies and quads have punishing tracking penalties and so if you aren't letting them run straight at you they miss a lot

Never thought about that, but I can't argue with you. It is the "most efficient" way to do those missions. But it does create unfun -- this is also unarguable. Seems to me that repeatedly losing to premades or having SD'ers on your team both have the same effect on daily/weekly completion: it takes more matches. It's hard to say which is more unfun. I guess most SD'ers will stop queueing once dailies/weeklies are complete? So, ideally, their unfun is a temporary albeit a daily occurrence. On the other hand, if a premade is totally dominating the queue it can go on interminably (and as I've said before, being unable to play at all is the worst kind of unfun)... but unlike SD'ing this type of thing doesn't happen every day. Honestly it's been weeks since I've seen a premade dominating the queue like that. But I have been seeing more SD'ing shenanigans (including a multiboxer one night - very strange to witness). Presently, I'd have to say SD'ing is causing more unfun than premades. However, I've had more good matches than bad lately in terms of fun (e.g., pilot behavior has had less effect on fun than previously). Pretty sure it's because of the Galactic Season. Has me thinking: more than a consensus about premades or SD'ing or etc, what GSF needs is more pilots... and that with enough pilots, everyone could fly however they want and there would still be more fun than unfun.

I think our best bet to get GSF more attention is to work on improving some prevailing attitudes toward the radness that is GSF.. Many treat GSF as a chore. Others refer to such as "taters" and complain about bad players/matches. For these and other reasons, much of the (visible) communication about GSF is decidedly negative. If we can emphasize the FUN, maybe the type of attention GSF receives (or lack thereof) could change. Admittedly, I am an idealist. But I do not apologize for it and so I shall remain. Edit: Dunno if it means GSF is getting attention from devs, but the advent of this Galactic Season has resulted in more people flying, which has resulted in more variety in matches, which has resulted in more fun. Personally, the few experiences I've had in ground PvP were negative enough that I kind of hope GSF stays off PvP Seasons but stays on the Galactic Seasons. Not sure making GSF more competitive is a good idea -- the lack of rankings and substantial rewards/consequences with respect to SWTOR in general is part of GSF's appeal for me and many others.

GSF is what's keeping me here, too! And it's a little more than just fun for me... I had a brain injury last year and I'm still recovering, especially with regard to cognitive function. I think GSF is aiding my recovery. And as long as there's GSF I'll probably stay subscribed because I like the class stories and to play "Space Barbies" (collecting outfits and etc). Edit: to make my reply on-topic I will say that yes, queue times on Star Forge are usually less than 20 min. My gaming sessions can fall anywhere between 1000 MT and 1900 MT and I play at least a match or two most days. Almost never have a longer wait for queue pop. On weekends and on Tuesdays there are usually two matches going at any given time.

Now that I looked at the actual things and stuff in-game, I see that I totally misunderstood the patch note. There is an item called 'BR-06....' that unlocked who knows what before now and will now unlock the BR-05 paint job. There are two paint jobs that look identical but they aren't on bombers. Theyr'e FR-04 and FR-05. I wasn't even close! Oh well. Least we made the patch notes. Sort of... probably more related to GTN than to GSF but still...

From the patch notes: Um, what? Hopefully this means that those two paint jobs won't be the same anymore (e.g. we'll get to see what 'br-06' actually looks like). Cheers.

If there are guilds that pay credits for conquest points then I think it adds up. How sad.

Come join us on Star Forge?

Ah, I see. Makes sense. Combining queues or having a single GSF server are still great ideas though!

Players are motivated by different rewards, sure. Plenty of us just enjoy the dogfighting gameplay. We're the ones who queue GSF even when we don't have a daily/weekly in our mission log -- literally just for the fun of it. I assure you, we're out there. Edit: I want to clarify again: I am in no way calling for an end to premades. My point is and shall remain: more people will have more fun if there are times without a premade in the queue (including those who enjoy flying grouped/voiced) because the matches will be more varied. Personally, I like big chaotic unpredictable battles and I don't see many of them anymore. And it should go without saying, but I'm entirely opposed to SD'ers. I don't mention it here because I'm certain SD'ers don't use this forum. The current "vote-kick" system isn't optimal (my beef with it is, the "not contributing" often causes un-fun in the form of obligatory spawn camping) but I haven't been able to think of a better way to address it.

I'm confident SD'ers are far less of a deterrent to playing the game than being blown up over and over. SD'ers suck, no doubt -- but it's still possible to play even if they cost you the match. I want to clarify: many of us don't care about wins/losses or tech frags or conquest. We just want to play, even if we're not great pilots or we can't/won't use voice chat. That's the perspective I'm coming from.

For the past few weeks I've been spending time on Satele Shan and Darth Malgus at different times of day for at least an hour at a time. Not a single pop on either server. I'm wondering if Star Forge is actually the only server that still has GSF?