Broken match making

[Beyrahl]

5 hours ago, krackcommando said:

both when I'm on the 6-7m team and against them, but then I'm penalized with a deserter debuff.

The main reasons I leave games if I ever do, along with backfills. It feels so lame to deal with one or two of these happening in quick succession.

[krackcommando]

10 minutes ago, Beyrahl said:

The main reasons I leave games if I ever do, along with backfills. It feels so lame to deal with one or two of these happening in quick succession.

right? it's like, "do I wanna get quad tunneled by a team that also has a guard swap and dedicated healer while 4 of my team are standing on our one controlled node?" or "do I follow around the 6m kill squad and do wholly meaningless dps b/c everyone dies inside of 3 gcds?"

[Lord_Malganus]

55 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

PvP would die over night if they did that. 

The removal of ranked drove the majority of the remaining dedicated skill based pvpers from the game. 

That’s why this whole 8 man premade situation is a debacle. Their whole approach has been backwards. 

Exactly and the hypocritical ineptness of the game design is why it will never get better.

[TrixxieTriss]

One option they could add to the queue system & matchmaking is to show how many premades & solo players are in the queue & in matches. 

This system would then only match premades with other premades. It would estimate how long the wait time is for games to be matched against other premades.

If there aren’t any other premades or the wait time is going to be too long because there aren’t enough, the system could give them the option of splitting up the group for faster pop times. 

Of course you still have the issue of different premade sizes because they have zero structure requirements. And if they don’t add some way to overcome that, you could have multiple premades waiting for matches because they have different sizes or odd numbers. 

There are 2 ways to over come that issue.

The first is you allow solo queuing players to toggle wether they want to be placed with or against premades. But the problem could still arise if all solo players choose not toggle to be with premades. 

The second is to place some structure requirements on premades. This could be done so that premades can only be formed as even numbers like 2, 4, 6, 8 Or a simpler solution is just making it so premades must be 4 or 8 man. It would then be up to those forming the group to organise it like that (which is what MMO’s are usually about).

This sort of structured premade setup still gives the players agency & options to play the way they want. And if pop times are going to be too long because there aren’t enough premades, it lets the players know & gives them the option to split up the group or form groups for faster pop times or maybe move to the Arena queue. 

Once it’s setup & working (with no bugs), if the devs really want people to play in more premade groups or even play solo, they can add incentives for queuing as a group or solo. They could even make it part of the seasons track to play & win “x” amount of group & solo matches to get “y” & “z” shinnies. 

This system accommodates all players then & allows the community to grow more organically instead of alienating parts of it. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[DeannaVoyager]

17 hours ago, Samcuu said:

The devs have stated their reasoning for how the queues work in the past. Their priority is faster pops so ppl aren't waiting around in queues all day/night. Honestly the last tweak they made is doing a lot to deter big premades because the pops don't happen fast enough. I've been in big groups where the consensus is just to split up so the pops are faster. Your suggestion would only make the queue times even longer. 

I dont think the matchmaking is the issue in pvp right now. The issue is more what lies in ppls motivations to play the mode. Imo the biggest improvement for everyone's experience would be reducing the 8 man premade max back to 4 man max. A 4 man premade can still dominate enough to make grouping worthwhile, but not overly dominant to ruin a more inexperienced players time. 

To prevent people from having to wait around in q's all day/night can easily be solved by breaking up the premades. WIth solo queue the matchmaker will have a chance to work and pops will be faster. 

[septru]

14 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

If the devs really want people to play in more premade groups or even play solo, they can add incentives for queuing as a group or solo. They could even make it part of the seasons track to play & win “x” amount of group & solo matches to get “y” & “z” shinnies. 

This is actually not a bad idea. Given how the only solution to premades, is making your own premade. It would be great if BioWare incentivized casuals to join a group rather than come here to QQ about it. 

 

If only the devs had any willingness to incentivize anything other than AFKing and /stuck. 

 

2 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

To prevent people from having to wait around in q's all day/night can easily be solved by breaking up the premades. WIth solo queue the matchmaker will have a chance to work and pops will be faster. 

This, on the other hand, is a terrible idea. What happens to 2man or 3man premades? They can't play with their friends? 

[Prapcaster]

21 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Don't be shy @JoeStramaglia what's your opinion on all of this? 😁👍

(He was lurking in the thread so I assume the devs know about the concerns we have on the issue hopefully they will address them soon). 

That feature on the new forums has really shot them in the foot lmao. I've seen them lurk on quite a few threads so at this point they're just blatantly ignoring the criticism. Pretty sure they only even come on the pvp area of the forums to delete "rude" comments.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Prapcaster

[krackcommando]

33 minutes ago, Prapcaster said:

That feature on the new forums has really shot them in the foot lmao. I've seen them lurk on quite a few threads so at this point they're just blatantly ignoring the criticism. Pretty sure they only even come on the pvp area of the forums to delete "rude" comments.

I prolly shouldn't mention that you can hide your status if you want. it's kind of invasive that the default setting is to announce to the world who is reading a thread.

[Beyrahl]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

I prolly shouldn't mention that you can hide your status if you want. it's kind of invasive that the default setting is to announce to the world who is reading a thread.

Darn... But we all wanted to know if they read it, even if they didn't reply. I can't imagine the restrictions of them being able to communicate with us or not. I am sure it's not as simple as we might think due to (crappy imo) policies. 

[krackcommando]

43 minutes ago, Beyrahl said:

Darn... But we all wanted to know if they read it, even if they didn't reply. I can't imagine the restrictions of them being able to communicate with us or not. I am sure it's not as simple as we might think due to (crappy imo) policies. 

invision and phpp boards are not exactly new, so I have been well aware of what board admins can see about  you. but it is kinda creepy if you crawl around your profile to see the data they log on you. fwiw, the (new) invision board gives you the option to erase IP history. prolly something they installed b/c of privacy laws that are such a big issue recently in EU and US.

[DeannaVoyager]

On 8/31/2023 at 5:14 PM, septru said:

This, on the other hand, is a terrible idea. What happens to 2man or 3man premades? They can't play with their friends? 

Of course they can play with their friends. They just might not be in the same team, which brings pvp to a completely new level. When I was still playing pvp with a group of 5, we always split up and when we ended up to different sides, it was much more fun when you could taunt them in voice chat at the same time.

[Samcuu]

6 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

it was much more fun when you could taunt them in voice chat at the same time.

And here I was under the impression that the issue was toxic ranked players 😂😂

[DeannaVoyager]

13 hours ago, Samcuu said:

And here I was under the impression that the issue was toxic ranked players 😂😂

The issue was septru complaining not being able to play with friends if premades are broken. But I guess you don't want to respond to that because you know I'm right and then you can't argue.

Or if you seriously don't understand the difference between toxic ranked players and banter in voice chat between friends, let me help you with that: when you taunt a friend, it's friendly banter. It's mutual and consensual. When you taunt someone else in order to aggrevate them, it's being toxic. 

[VegaMist]

21 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Of course they can play with their friends. They just might not be in the same team, which brings pvp to a completely new level. When I was still playing pvp with a group of 5, we always split up and when we ended up to different sides, it was much more fun when you could taunt them in voice chat at the same time.

Playing "with" your friends and playing "against" your friends are two different things. In fact, they are opposites. I'm glad you enjoyed playing against your friends - not everyone does.

[septru]

On 9/2/2023 at 4:47 AM, DeannaVoyager said:

Of course they can play with their friends. They just might not be in the same team, which brings pvp to a completely new level. When I was still playing pvp with a group of 5, we always split up and when we ended up to different sides, it was much more fun when you could taunt them in voice chat at the same time.

We must be living in different realities if "splitting up groups" is going to somehow get more new players into PvP. I can already imagine the poor PvE healer that tries PvP for the first time with his 2 dps friends, only to get split up from them, tunneled, chased, and eventually "taunted" by them. 

 

The lengths that you anti-premade QQers will go to, just so that you don't have to group up with anyone in an MMO. 🤣 First it was "solo only que." Now it's "split up premades." What's next, removing grouping all together? 

Edited September 3, 2023 by septru

[DeannaVoyager]

13 hours ago, septru said:

We must be living in different realities if "splitting up groups" is going to somehow get more new players into PvP. I can already imagine the poor PvE healer that tries PvP for the first time with his 2 dps friends, only to get split up from them, tunneled, chased, and eventually "taunted" by them. 

 

The lengths that you anti-premade QQers will go to, just so that you don't have to group up with anyone in an MMO. 🤣 First it was "solo only que." Now it's "split up premades." What's next, removing grouping all together? 

We are definitely living in different realities. I don't go around finding ways to deliberately misinterpret and twist everything you say just to get an argument, like you do. I prefer sticking to the topic, you seem to result into trolling and personal attacks when everyone doesn't agree with you. 

 

23 hours ago, VegaMist said:

Playing "with" your friends and playing "against" your friends are two different things. In fact, they are opposites. I'm glad you enjoyed playing against your friends - not everyone does.

Only if it's taken too seriously. We had a lot of fun doing that, but you're right, it's not for everyone. 

We also did that on the era where pvp weeklies required less matches, and it was 1 point for loss, 2 for win. Pvp was chilled and casual. Now if you happen to be in a losing team and you get unlucky with the queue, completing a weekly takes way too long. When people only want to be done with it for whatever rewards they are playing it, it's bound to get more serious and with that: toxic. 

[septru]

8 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

I prefer sticking to the topic, you seem to result into trolling and personal attacks when everyone doesn't agree with you.

I'm sorry you feel personally injured, but it is not a personal attack to point out the flaws of your argument. 

 

But since you seem to want to stick to the topic... you still haven't explained why you can't simply create your own group.

Edited September 4, 2023 by septru

[Lord_Malganus]

On 9/3/2023 at 12:13 PM, septru said:

The lengths that you anti-premade QQers will go to, just so that you don't have to group up with anyone in an MMO. 🤣 First it was "solo only que." Now it's "split up premades." What's next, removing grouping all together? 

So why is it, the dev's do not support their own design once and for all, by solving the problem by leveling the playing field for everyone?.

Make Pvp pre-made against pre-made. Remove the fish in a barrel (No solo Q'ing) by making PvP a group required type of game play.

Of course those complaining about Solo Q players (pre-made dependents) don't want Solo Q removed either, as they will be along in this thread or another to explain why, when we all know they don't want to lose easy kills and wins while complaining about them.

 

 

 

[Jettsett]

3 hours ago, Lord_Malganus said:

So why is it, the dev's do not support their own design once and for all, by solving the problem by leveling the playing field for everyone?.

Make Pvp pre-made against pre-made. Remove the fish in a barrel (No solo Q'ing) by making PvP a group required type of game play.

Of course those complaining about Solo Q players (pre-made dependents) don't want Solo Q removed either, as they will be along in this thread or another to explain why, when we all know they don't want to lose easy kills and wins while complaining about them.

 

 

 

I can't tell if this is a troll take or not. The game is already dying rapidly. Why would you want to make PVP a group only activity when at some times of the day there's only enough players for one game at a time, if any? If you can't catch your friends online you think people should be forced to either not play, or beg to group with a bunch of random players?

[septru]

4 hours ago, Lord_Malganus said:

Make Pvp pre-made against pre-made. Remove the fish in a barrel (No solo Q'ing) by making PvP a group required type of game play.

 

I don't want solo removed anymore than I want group removed. 

[TrixxieTriss]

9 hours ago, Lord_Malganus said:

Of course those complaining about Solo Q players (pre-made dependents) don't want Solo Q removed either, as they will be along in this thread or another to explain why, when we all know they don't want to lose easy kills and wins while complaining about them.

By removing the solo option queuing, it would remove more people from the queue than if they just enforced matchmaking so premades only play premades. 

Pop times would go through the roof & there would be large portions of the day that PvP wouldn’t be played because there wouldn’t be enough groups to form matches. 

Wether the Devs or the premade only advocates like it or not, people who only queue solo, out number those who only want premades. 

That’s because BW drove away most of this games MMO population during the 5.x-7.x era with mostly solo story options.

This was especially true during KOTET/KOTFE when you couldn’t play the story in a group & have everyone complete it. Only the leader of the group  got recognition. 

If they hadn’t done that, then maybe the idea of pushing premades in PvP would be valid. But after driving most of the group oriented players from the game for several years, this development idea is nonsensical in the extreme. The game is mostly solo Barbie players.

Wether people agree or not is irrelevant. Because logically, when you have a majority solo player base that is being negatively affect by the small minority (premades), it’s best to cater to the majority so that they keep paying money & don’t abandon the game.

It would be bad enough if this half baked attempt was trying to cater to everyone fairly, but it’s not even trying to do that. It is catering more to premades ahead of solo players by adding 5-8man premades into the mix.

If they’d wanted to really cater to both play styles equally, they wouldn’t have added 5-8man premades into seasons. And at the end of the day, that is why solo people are abandoning PvP because the devs refuse to cater to both play styles so solo people pvping can have fun too.

Edited September 5, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[septru]

9 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Wether the Devs or the premade only advocates like it or not, people who only queue solo, out number those who only want premades. 

That’s because BW drove away most of this games MMO population during the 5.x-7.x era with mostly solo story options.

This was especially true during KOTET/KOTFE when you couldn’t play the story in a group & have everyone complete it. Only the leader of the group  got recognition. 

If they hadn’t done that, then maybe the idea of pushing premades in PvP would be valid. But after driving most of the group oriented players from the game for several years, this development idea is nonsensical in the extreme. The game is mostly solo Barbie players.

Wether people agree or not is irrelevant. Because logically, when you have a majority solo player base that is being negatively affect by the small minority (premades), it’s best to cater to the majority so that they keep paying money & don’t abandon the game.

It would be bad enough if this half baked attempt was trying to cater to everyone fairly, but it’s not even trying to do that. It is catering more to premades ahead of solo players by adding 5-8man premades into the mix.

If they’d wanted to really cater to both play styles equally, they wouldn’t have added 5-8man premades into seasons. And at the end of the day, that is why solo people are abandoning PvP because the devs refuse to cater to both play styles so solo people pvping can have fun too.

I'm not sure PvP is completely gone yet. 

 

I played some PvP last night in premades of various sizes and almost always got against different premades of similar sizes. I think in general during primetime, you have a 70/30 solo/premade split. BioSword has the exact numbers. 

 

Your argument is actually pretty reasonable, if it was true. I just don't agree that solo players outnumber premades that badly. It may seem like it, because they disproportionately come here to the forums to complain. But again, BioSword has the exact numbers. If it was closer to a 90/10 solo/premade split I might agree with you. 

 

But honestly, IMO, if it ever got to the point where it was justified to remove the ability to group up... this game should just shut down. I know we all love the game. But if the devs literally cant get any money from group players to justify keeping the ability to group, the game would literally be beyond hope. It would already be dead. 

[krackcommando]

58 minutes ago, septru said:

Your argument is actually pretty reasonable, if it was true. I just don't agree that solo players outnumber premades that badly. It may seem like it, because they disproportionately come here to the forums to complain. But again, BioSword has the exact numbers. If it was closer to a 90/10 solo/premade split I might agree with you. 

there's generally a premade in every single match I play in WZs, and that's been true (at max level) since day 1. I don't know how someone with trixxie's experience both in and outside of premades as well as with (presumably) good and (certainly) bad (e.g., wifey) players would recognize the 1-3m grps of pve players (who clearly don't have a clue about the various map metas). I do understand how these small, innocuous groups slip under the radar of the average yolo hero who rages against premades.

fwiw, when I first began to pvp, I was on a crusade against premades and argued for solo everything. Search the forums for foxmob.* I made most of deannavoyager's and trixxie's arguments. the funny thing? those were days when I was more likely to group up than I am now. in fact, I believe I was on RWZ teams at the time (not sure about that last bit though; it's been a while).  my pov changed as I got a feel for what pvp is/was, how solo-only adversely affected game play, and just the inverse logic of eliminating grps in a grp game. this game's pvp, of all games' pvp, should have premades as it is the best way to encourage trinity comps, and trinity was always the best innovation I have experienced in this type of MMORPG (gen 2?). look over the history of this game. how many times did you see solo tanks? solo healers? then when were they in groups? hands down, healers and tanks have always queued more in grps than solo. it was more exacerbated with tanks.

at the end of the day, even if the ratio is something like 80:20 or 70:30 (solo : grp), the fact of the matter is that the innocuous, generic premade in pvp is ~90:10 (nobodies : death squads). and I think it's absolutely asinine to punish that 90% of that smaller 20-30% overall at the expense of doing what solo arenas started: destroying the trinity pvp game. not to mention the ability to play a few matches with friends (on the same team!*) before going off to a raid or back to real life.

and again, if you actually take the time to look over the teams, there's at least one premade grp in the WZ. and no, that doesn't mean the ratio is 50:50 or something. it's still prolly 70-80:30-20. but let's please at least dispel this idea that nobody groups up,  and groups are destroying pvp. large groups and groups of certain players from certain guilds do regularly ruin the WZ experience and, to a lesser extent, arenas. they're the ones that stick out. they are actually the fewest in number of premades, in my experience. I don't know what you can do with them except limit their size and maybe strictly limit their pops via some sort of ELO (ironically not based on wins b/c they ignore win conditions).

*I wasn't banned or anything. the account is dead b/c I rage quit near the end of 5.x and went through a rather long and annoying phone tree to cancel my account which (comically) meant losing all of my EA games. derp!

*yeah. I made that argument back in the day too: playing against friends can be as much fun as with them. and it was...for drunken pick-em nights in an empty RWZs queue. but really, dude: just because that's "just as fun" for you does not make it "just as fun" for everyone else. it's not a compromise of any kind. it's bending everyone else's will to your own.

[DeannaVoyager]

On 9/4/2023 at 4:50 PM, septru said:

But since you seem to want to stick to the topic... you still haven't explained why you can't simply create your own group.

Yes I have. If you didn't see it, that's your problem.

I'm not gonna waste my time writing the same thing over and over again just because some random troll wants to have an argument.

[Lord_Malganus]

11 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Wether the Devs or the premade only advocates like it or not, people who only queue solo, out number those who only want premades. 

I'm glad someone else finally said it!