Broken match making

[StrikePrice]

Arena round #1: 3-1
Arena round #2: 3-4
Arena round #3: 3-4

Why isn't the PvP match maker like the GF? It should show the invites and who has accepted and declined and not pop until it's at least 4 on 4. Come on BS. Fix the failures of the last administration. 

[Zunayson]

The answer is pvp is uncompetitive and a second class mini game mode. A partial, unbalanced match is better than no pvp at all. This isn't the olympics

[StrikePrice]

13 minutes ago, Zunayson said:

The answer is pvp is uncompetitive and a second class mini game mode. A partial, unbalanced match is better than no pvp at all. This isn't the olympics

😭

Can't find the lie. 

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Zunayson said:

The answer is pvp is uncompetitive and a second class mini game mode. A partial, unbalanced match is better than no pvp at all. This isn't the olympics

if you see who is on your team you can cherry pick and quit. same for who is on the other team.

there's a quite easy solution: don't allow the pop until everyone has accepted. but coding too hard BW (I guess?).

they never even did this for rated pops. like they would populate the match BEFORE everyone accepted.

which reminds me: there would also need to be a penalty for refusing a pop (as there was in rated). that, I agree, is too "hardcore" for the uncompetitve nature of generic BW pvp (formerly regs)

[Samcuu]

Sounds to me like ppl are declining the pops. Wzs aren't popping without enough ppl in queue. 

[TrixxieTriss]

7 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

Arena round #1: 3-1
Arena round #2: 3-4
Arena round #3: 3-4

Why isn't the PvP match maker like the GF? It should show the invites and who has accepted and declined and not pop until it's at least 4 on 4. Come on BS. Fix the failures of the last administration. 

Was there a pre-made in the queue? Maybe people were queue dodging?

If it was just not enough people in the queue, then the devs should change the matchmaker so it makes 3v3 matches or even 2v2 during low population times. This is something I’ve suggested for years. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[StrikePrice]

16 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Was there a pre-made in the queue? Maybe people were queue dodging?

If it was just not enough people in the queue, then the devs should change the matchmaker so it makes 3v3 matches or even 2v2 during low population times. This is something I’ve suggested for years. 

Today it was a premade of 2+1 against me. So, 3-1 with a 2 premade on the other side. Match making didn't even have the courtesy to balance it 2 v 2. It's just flat out broken. 

[TrixxieTriss]

14 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

Today it was a premade of 2+1 against me. So, 3-1 with a 2 premade on the other side. Match making didn't even have the courtesy to balance it 2 v 2. It's just flat out broken. 

100%

Ive had many situations like that over the last several years. It becomes especially bad when there aren’t enough people queuing. And proves the matchmaking in the game is severely broken. 

[Lord_Malganus]

Solo Q only.  No Groups. Remove all objectives from all maps. Every game is a Team Death Match.

 

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Lord_Malganus said:

Solo Q only.  No Groups. Remove all objectives from all maps. Every game is a Team Death Match.

 

How would you determine who wins? What mechanics would you use for 16 man WZ maps so that it didn’t become stale?

[Lord_Malganus]

I was joking. Even setting up a simple team death match (The side with the most kills win), would be blundered. As far as stale, you mean like Pvp has become stale?

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[kjarnage]

I agree match making is broken when a team in 8x8 gets over 400 kills to zero of the other team.  Only reason it was not worse is at least the losing team had 2 healers. 

[Samcuu]

54 minutes ago, kjarnage said:

I agree match making is broken when a team in 8x8 gets over 400 kills to zero of the other team.  Only reason it was not worse is at least the losing team had 2 healers. 

Tbh the match making isn't broken. The queue is a very long wait for a full 8 man team. It makes those groups wait a long time searching for another big premade to match them together. Issue is that big premades are rare so it will eventually match them against a pug side when there isn't another premade in queue. 

[DeannaVoyager]

12 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Tbh the match making isn't broken. The queue is a very long wait for a full 8 man team. It makes those groups wait a long time searching for another big premade to match them together. Issue is that big premades are rare so it will eventually match them against a pug side when there isn't another premade in queue. 

That's not a proof that it isn't broken. It's actually a proof that it really is broken.

Premades shouldn't be matched against pugs at all, or at least it shouldn't be called pvp when it happens. 

[TrixxieTriss]

12 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Issue is that big premades are rare so it will eventually match them against a pug side when there isn't another premade in queue

If it doesn’t pop for full 8 man teams, then it should give them the option to break the teams up in those situations or give them the option to wait longer if they don’t want to. The matchmaking should never place premades against solo players. 

[Samcuu]

It's not broken it works exactly as intended. You might not like the intent that's another subject. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Samcuu

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Samcuu said:

It's not broken it works exactly as intended. You might not like the intent that's another subject. 

correct. also, I'd like to be able to leave such matches,both when I'm on the 6-7m team and against them, but then I'm penalized with a deserter debuff. i really don't understand the deserter debuff. it's the same as the /stuck issue (in arenas): does anyone think the player who would use /stuck or leave the match is going to do anything remotely constructive?

back fill sucks arse, and I think it should be a box that you tick when you queue that you will back fill if something opens up, but wouldn't you rather take the chance that a back fill will join and try to fight than have someone afk or kill himself?

iunno. there's no leaving. there's no choice of map. there's no way to enforce that teams try to win and don't prolong matches to kill more fish in a barrel.

I get that the ideal is ppl should group up. I'm all for grouping up. but I also just cannot fathom how these premades (and it's really only a fraction of the premades that I run into on SF) even find any enjoyment whatsoever in annihilating players that could do more dps just mashing auto attack than w/e it is they're doing when they leave spawn.

but I do concur with samcuu that the MM is working as intended. prum and cease report similar wait times (even as solos) because of high winning %. the rated arena and WZ queues are the only evidence for splitting grp and solo, and they suggest that grps will be left out to dry if that were to happen, and I think it's pretty clear at this point (and with the "all in" move to allow 8m premades) that BW wants ppl to grp up. and since the ppl running the game at BS are basically the same as those from BW (albeit fewer in number), I don't see that attitude changing. then again, these are the same ppl who made that 8m decision in the same patch that they unleashed a hoard of space barbies and story mode players into pvp with little chance of doing anything but getting wiped and running to the forums to decry how unfair it is that they have to pvp for their samurai bounty hunter fetish.

[Samcuu]

12 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

but I also just cannot fathom how these premades (and it's really only a fraction of the premades that I run into on SF) even find any enjoyment whatsoever in annihilating players that could do more dps just mashing auto attack than w/e it is they're doing when they leave spawn.

I can give u some insight into this particular type of pvper. They aren't looking to face pug groups. They are looking to face stiff competition. Their intent when forming a big group is to find another big group and face a challenge. If they happen to get matched against a pug group the mentality doesn't change. If it's red it's dead. Nobody on either side enjoys those matches they are extremely boring for the big premade. In fact when that happens I don't even dps I just start doing objectives. 

 

16 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

but I do concur with samcuu that the MM is working as intended. prum and cease report similar wait times (even as solos) because of high winning %.

There's actually another factor at play here which sucks. It's very possible to be in a big premade and still queue dodge any premade that's in queue if you don't want the smoke. I don't see it often but I was in maybe a 5 or 6 man premade a week back and we knew there was another premade in queue. Never saw them in a match, so I assume they were dodging us. If they weren't and I'm wrong (which very well could be the case) then matchmaking is definitely broken. For the most part tho if another premade is in queue we normally will get matched against them. 

[Lord_Malganus]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

but I do concur with samcuu that the MM is working as intended.

Then get rid of Solo Q and make Pvp a mandatory Pre-made group requirement .

That way pre-made vs pre-made is the only option to even Q up .

[Samcuu]

55 minutes ago, Lord_Malganus said:

Then get rid of Solo Q and make Pvp a mandatory Pre-made group requirement .

That way pre-made vs pre-made is the only option to even Q up .

The devs have stated their reasoning for how the queues work in the past. Their priority is faster pops so ppl aren't waiting around in queues all day/night. Honestly the last tweak they made is doing a lot to deter big premades because the pops don't happen fast enough. I've been in big groups where the consensus is just to split up so the pops are faster. Your suggestion would only make the queue times even longer. 

I dont think the matchmaking is the issue in pvp right now. The issue is more what lies in ppls motivations to play the mode. Imo the biggest improvement for everyone's experience would be reducing the 8 man premade max back to 4 man max. A 4 man premade can still dominate enough to make grouping worthwhile, but not overly dominant to ruin a more inexperienced players time. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Samcuu

[Lord_Malganus]

Everything always points back to the singular fact that contradictory ineptness of Pvp design is why it will never get any better. 

Samcuu, thank you for that explanation.

[Samcuu]

Don't be shy @JoeStramaglia what's your opinion on all of this? 😁👍

(He was lurking in the thread so I assume the devs know about the concerns we have on the issue hopefully they will address them soon). 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Samcuu

[TrixxieTriss]

5 hours ago, Samcuu said:

It's not broken it works exactly as intended. You might not like the intent that's another subject. 

It might be working as the devs intended. But it’s a broken type setup & shouldn’t be setup like that if they want players to keep pvping in this game. 

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, Samcuu said:

There's actually another factor at play here which sucks. It's very possible to be in a big premade and still queue dodge any premade that's in queue if you don't want the smoke. I don't see it often but I was in maybe a 5 or 6 man premade a week back and we knew there was another premade in queue. Never saw them in a match, so I assume they were dodging us. If they weren't and I'm wrong (which very well could be the case) then matchmaking is definitely broken. For the most part tho if another premade is in queue we normally will get matched against them. 

I’ve seen this too. But it’s not just restricted to happening now. It’s been happening like this for years. I first started reporting on this when we had low population numbers in the queue during off hours. You know, before the last mergers & before we had mixed rep/emp teams to help with the pops. 

This has been a gripe I’ve had for many years.

From what I can tell. If you only have 2 groups or only a few odd number groups. The queue doesn’t recognise those already in matches, 

Even with matchmaking trying to slow down pops for groups, if the other premades aren’t available & if the 2nd group is in match already & the first group has been waiting 8 mins, the matchmaking pops them into the first game it can make instead of waiting for the other premade to finish its game.

And considering a WZ can go for up to 15 mins, both premades can consistently miss each other because the matchmaking doesn’t recognise there is another premade playing.

Even if you have 3 premades, because the queue doesn’t identify those already in games as potential matches, those 3 premades can still miss each other due to forcing a pop before the others finish their games. 

This is something I’ve been asking BW to fix since Harbinger days. I proved it was happening back then during off hours & BW’s solution wasn’t to fix the broken matchmaking. Instead they gave us mixed teams so it was harder to track. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Lord_Malganus said:

Then get rid of Solo Q and make Pvp a mandatory Pre-made group requirement .

That way pre-made vs pre-made is the only option to even Q up .

PvP would die over night if they did that.  Especially in a game the devs have been making more & more solo oriented over the last 7 years.

The majority of players are casual story players because BW drove away most of the truely dedicated MMO players with their stupid solo oriented design choices from 5.0 onwards.

The reason the game is dominated by solo Barbie players is because of stupid decisions that were made for short sighted monetisation.

And because of that, the overwhelming majority of swtor players are now solo oriented Space Barbies. 

The removal of ranked drove the majority of the remaining dedicated skill based pvpers from the game. 

That’s why this whole 8 man premade situation is a debacle. Their whole approach has been backwards.