Creating Balance in PVP

[kjarnage]

Recently was in an 8v8 match where the kill ratio was about 320 to 0. This is the worst example of imbalance I have seen. 

The question is how do you improve the balance? 

Here are a few suggestions but please include your own.

1. In GSF a group of 4 are each counts as the ability of the top of the four. This should be applied to PVP. This creates some balance to the advantage of being in a group. 

2. Create two arenas one for groups of 4 and other limiting the group size to 2.

3. Limit 8v8 to one group of 4 on each side.

4. If a game is not reasonably close, not only should the personnel be changed but the general board type. Here I would treat similar types like the Hutt Ball be treat as one type.  If the scores are close a rematch on the same board type. Again this could be applied to GSF.

5. One would hope that the designers can look at graphs of scores and other stats to see how well he games are balanced and look at the best and worst to see what works and what does not. 

6. While we do not know how the games are balanced one would hope that win-lose is not a factor but might be a more of a goal, nor is games played. except you might want to not put too many new players on the same team.

7. While the hutt ball etc. notes the selection are random it also notes cheating and cannibalism is allowed. We expect that too is just for show.   

8. I see a lot less cheating over the years, so thank you for addressing those!

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[Wilsu_Addar]

They will never balance PvP.  They don't have the engine structure, ability, nor desire to balance it. 

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Wilsu_Addar said:

They will never balance PvP.  They don't have the engine structure, ability, nor desire to balance it. 

I disagree that the game engine can’t do it. The engine has nothing to do with balance. It comes down to how well the dev team understands classes & their abilities properly. 

Now wether they have that capability or desire is another matter. I think part of the problem is they don’t understand their own game or classes properly. If they don’t know that, how can they be expected to code the abilities & stats properly. 

[krackcommando]

32 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

disagree that the game engine can’t do it. The engine has nothing to do with balance. It comes down to how well the dev team understands classes & their abilities properly. 

I do play at 4k, but I play with all other settings toned down. there are matches where I eat serious "lag" even though there's nothing wrong with my ping. it lasts the whole match. I swear a do a double take to make sure I'm not inadvertently recording the match, rendering something in another screen, or downloading something with my server. none of that is going on. so I'm just miffed. this often happens on quesh and VS. not all the time, but those seem to be the usually places when it does happen.

honestly, it feels just like Ilum in 1.0 where the game would slow down with more than 5 players in the same general area. it's not THAT bad, but it's a similar kind of frame drop.

edit: it's possible that I'm watching a streaming show plus someone in the other room is, but yo. I have a gigabit line. and like I said...I'm not seeing bad pings. i really think the engine is hot garbage.

Edited June 3, 2023 by krackcommando

[TrixxieTriss]

56 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

I do play at 4k, but I play with all other settings toned down. there are matches where I eat serious "lag" even though there's nothing wrong with my ping. it lasts the whole match. I swear a do a double take to make sure I'm not inadvertently recording the match, rendering something in another screen, or downloading something with my server. none of that is going on. so I'm just miffed. this often happens on quesh and VS. not all the time, but those seem to be the usually places when it does happen.

honestly, it feels just like Ilum in 1.0 where the game would slow down with more than 5 players in the same general area. it's not THAT bad, but it's a similar kind of frame drop.

edit: it's possible that I'm watching a streaming show plus someone in the other room is, but yo. I have a gigabit line. and like I said...I'm not seeing bad pings. i really think the engine is hot garbage.

Yeah, that’s obviously partly an engine issue. But I was referring to the devs being able to create balance as far as classes, stat’s & possibly matchmaking. But engine lag is definitely an issue. 

You might be able to alleviate part of your lag issues if your Router is advanced enough to setup QOS properly. Even with a gig connection, streaming can affect the performance if packets are not prioritised. Ie, my ASUS router allows me to individually setup certain devices as gaming, streaming, web surfing, office, etc. Gaming obviously needs priority over streaming so it doesn’t lag. So maybe check out your router to setup QOS to see if it helps.

Unfortunately, not all Routers have good software/firmware or are as simple to setup like the ASUS one I use. Ie, my old Netgear was a pain to setup QOS & even then I think it was mostly gimmicky due to bad coding, so I hardly noticed a difference until I got my ASUS router. Then I saw a massive improvement. 

The other 4 things that I’ve found that can cause engine lag at 4K or multiple monitors in swtor is too many background processors running, not enough graphics power, buggy drivers & lastly, the cable connecting the monitor to the PC (I know that last one seems weird). But if you have a cheapish DP or HDMI cable, they can have issues. Sometimes fixing it is as simple as making sure the cable is pushed in properly or isn’t kinked. Sometimes it’s just the cable quality inside. Even though it might be rated to work, it doesn’t. I usually read reviews if I need a new cable to see if anyone running 4K/8K gaming is having any issues. 

 

[DeannaVoyager]

7 hours ago, kjarnage said:

Recently was in an 8v8 match where the kill ratio was about 320 to 0. This is the worst example of imbalance I have seen. 

The question is how do you improve the balance? 

Here are a few suggestions but please include your own.

1. In GSF a group of 4 are each counts as the ability of the top of the four. This should be applied to PVP. This creates some balance to the advantage of being in a group. 

2. Create two arenas one for groups of 4 and other limiting the group size to 2.

3. Limit 8v8 to one group of 4 on each side.

4. If a game is not reasonably close, not only should the personnel be changed but the general board type. Here I would treat similar types like the Hutt Ball be treat as one type.  If the scores are close a rematch on the same board type. Again this could be applied to GSF.

5. One would hope that the designers can look at graphs of scores and other stats to see how well he games are balanced and look at the best and worst to see what works and what does not. 

6. While we do not know how the games are balanced one would hope that win-lose is not a factor but might be a more of a goal, nor is games played. except you might want to not put too many new players on the same team.

7. While the hutt ball etc. notes the selection are random it also notes cheating and cannibalism is allowed. We expect that too is just for show.   

8. I see a lot less cheating over the years, so thank you for addressing those!

  

There is supposed to be matchmaking to prevent this from happening, but if there are premades in the queue, it breaks the matchmaking, and this is the result.

[Dayshadow]

Some of the imbalance is so over the top that it has to be intentional. They aren't fixing anything because they broke PvP on purpose.

[Sappharan]

7 hours ago, Dayshadow said:

Some of the imbalance is so over the top that it has to be intentional. They aren't fixing anything because they broke PvP on purpose.

They have abandoned the game.  BioWare signed a letter of intent to give/sell/whatever the game to Broadsword, another development company.  They're done with the game.  That is why no one has been posting.  There is literally no reason to post about development problems unless one enjoys barking at the moon.  I do not.

[Samcuu]

I've played probably about 50 to 60 matches the last few weekends, I've been solo, in small groups, and in big groups. I think the matchmaking is doing really well. When I was solo I probably saw a big premade once or twice. In a small group I was getting matched against the other small groups in the queue consistently. And when in a large group the queue pop took way longer and it was against full premades every time. The update they did to matchmaking is working. 

There are issues with balance in pvp. Most of it comes from an individuals play level, lack of gear, not being geared properly stats wise, lack of tactical ect. There are a lot of new ppl playing who don't have a clue on any of this stuff and it creates pretty big gulfs against veteran players. The gearing isn't intuitive as far as min maxing stats is concerned. It's up to vets to teach more inexperienced players all that stuff. If they want to learn it's a different story. The players who enjoy pvp will reach out for help, many have to me personally and I always help. The ppl that just queue for the rewards will continue to be fodder unfortunately as they don't really care imho.

I do agree groups should be scaled down to 4, but I have seen a big improvement since they changed the matchmaking algorithm. In a perfect world the matchmaking system would also account for gear rating and try to make sure each team has the same amount of undergeared players. Not sure it does that tho. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Samcuu

[Samcuu]

8 hours ago, Sappharan said:

They have abandoned the game.  BioWare signed a letter of intent to give/sell/whatever the game to Broadsword, another development company.  They're done with the game.  That is why no one has been posting.  There is literally no reason to post about development problems unless one enjoys barking at the moon.  I do not.

It's not Biowares decision from all accounts I've read so this post is a little disingenuous EA is making this decision. From what I've read the Broadsword team has actually improved the DAOC pvp (a game famous for its engaging pvp). They have a small team and class balancing ect, along with other pvp updates is relatively easy to do. So if ur a pvp'er in swtor life actually might get better after the game switches hands. If you are a pve'er I'd have a lot of concern tho. 

[krackcommando]

9 hours ago, Sappharan said:

There is literally no reason to post about development problems unless one enjoys barking at the moon.  I do not.

I'm not sure if it's funny or sad, but what do you think this forum is and has always been? BW posts when they want to announce something. otherwise, it's a place CS sends you when they don't want to deal with you so that players have the illusion of power/voice. honestly, that's the impression I get from test servers as well, given the number of bugs and balance issues pointed out on PTS forums but brought into live game patches. 😄

Edited June 11, 2023 by krackcommando

[krackcommando]

59 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

It's not Biowares decision from all accounts I've read so this post is a little disingenuous EA is making this decision. From what I've read the Broadsword team has actually improved the DAOC pvp (a game famous for its engaging pvp). They have a small team and class balancing ect, along with other pvp updates is relatively easy to do. So if ur a pvp'er in swtor life actually might get better after the game switches hands. If you are a pve'er I'd have a lot of concern tho. 

is it though? b/c I recall a dev commenting on reports from a user who made claims about BW struggling with EA over game design and dev team assigments (iirc). the "dev" (it was a BW poster) said the person making the claims clearly didn't work on the game because there was no difference between BW and EA (other than a paper entity that could be separated and sold off. lul)

Edited June 11, 2023 by krackcommando

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Samcuu said:

I've played probably about 50 to 60 matches the last few weekends, I've been solo, in small groups, and in big groups. I think the matchmaking is doing really well. When I was solo I probably saw a big premade once or twice. In a small group I was getting matched against the other small groups in the queue consistently. And when in a large group the queue pop took way longer and it was against full premades every time. The update they did to matchmaking is working. 

played about 30 games (3x WZ and arena weeklies + extra arenas on one toon, 3x arena weeklies + 1 or 2 WZ weeklies on another, and working on 2nd arena weekly on third toon - since tues reset, so lot of recent game time) in the past few days. pops are steady. WZs are populated with every possible combination of player. tons of premades (fwiw), tons of whiners. tons of ppl ignoring objectives. I just played to complete a daily and hopped back into arenas. arena pops remain strong. more grps than I'm accustomed to seeing. the same couple guilds have been more active recently. they're not particularly good guilds. but still, a 3m or a 2m H/T gets annoying - especially the latter b/c the other team often doesn't have both support roles. in general, there has been more unbalanced matches (by role) recently. so if there's a population dip after the Broadsword announcement, the only visible evidence I've noticed in SF pvp is maybe seeing more grps and fewer role balanced matches b/c fewer overall population in arenas (let's face it, WZs have always been as described above).

Edited June 11, 2023 by krackcommando

[Sappharan]

6 hours ago, krackcommando said:

I'm not sure if it's funny or sad, but what do you think this forum is and has always been? BW posts when they want to announce something. otherwise, it's a place CS sends you when they don't want to deal with you so that players have the illusion of power/voice. honestly, that's the impression I get from test servers as well, given the number of bugs and balance issues pointed out on PTS forums but brought into live game patches. 😄

Mostly, I think you're right.  But it feels even more pronounced now that they have (or whomever has) abandoned the game.  I'm not suggesting I am good with the illusion of agency, but occasionally (very rarely actually..but still) they did address our concerns, albeit probably only when it was A) convenient for them or B) they had already made the decision to do so.  Now posting is merely for socializing and barking at the moon. 

[transferancecure]

They apparently don't want to work on the game and create balance.  Just throw in some artificial universally despised lockout timers instead.  Right, Devs? 

Edited June 18, 2023 by transferancecure

[TrixxieTriss]

On 6/12/2023 at 12:21 AM, Samcuu said:

From what I've read the Broadsword team has actually improved the DAOC pvp

I also decided to look at their user forums to see what the players think. From what I can tell, they have zero moderation for people cheating or hacking, which has actually driven participation down because legitimate players got sick & tired of Broadsword ignoring it. Those still playing PvP in that game felt the only way to level the playing field is to also cheat. And it would seem that Broadsword are ok with that philosophy. I can’t see that sitting to well with swtor players if they apply a similar philosophy here. Guess we’ll have to wait & see. But for me, any positive feelings I had about the change have quickly been extinguished reading those players accounts.  

[TrixxieTriss]

On 6/12/2023 at 1:27 AM, krackcommando said:

so if there's a population dip after the Broadsword announcement

Just looking at the Steam numbers (which are a representation of what’s happening), the Steam numbers have dropped 15.80% this month. Mostly in the last week since the news. There is a definite downward trend in player numbers on Steam. I guess the next few weeks will show if that continues in a downward spiral or wether it levels out. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[StrikePrice]

The word "balance" is meaningless. You don't define it, you just say it. What do you mean by balance? That 1v1 players of equal skill in any two specs will duel to a draw? Do you mean 2v2 balance? Do you mean 4v4? 8v8? That in every situation every spec is as useful as ever other?

I would say swtor is fairly "balanced" in a 4v4 T/H/Dx2 of teams of equal skill. Some specs definitely lag in this format, but that can be made up with in skill. But, if you change everything to balance 1v1, you throw 4v4 out of balance. And, likewise, if you believe "balance" is a group of 4, 5 or 6 skilled players in voice comms not destroying a PUG, that will never happen. 

That said, there are many, many things out of balance. One easy example is that Operatives are outsized valuable in Huttball.  That's just one example.  IMHO, guard is out of balance, skank tanks are out of balance for most games etc etc.  But, you will never have a game where 4 skilled players in working together don't dominate a PUG.