Make the game harder during class stories

[Spikanor]

1 minute ago, juliushorst said:

No, this would be fine. They just "adjusted" level sync so lvl 80 geared character was synched to be weaker than a character on planet-appropriate level in story gear.

i still think its much better there level sync the special rooms you enter back to there orginal level and not scale it to the planets level like its now since fighting a level 10 end boss has become a compleet joke when its original level is lvl 50 same go's for the other place's that there restore it to there original level since fighting with your favoriete companion has become easyer since you can set your companion to any mode you wane nowaday's and not have to use medic packs anymore since you can use any companion for healing you.

[denavin]

Solo Story Mode Missions should be easy. They should be scaled to the lowest level player allowed to do that mission that is wearing the lowest UN-enhanced green gear for that level. Not scaled to the highest level player with the best gear in the game with every enhancement applied to that gear.

A solo player on a Story Mode mission should not be swarmed by 8 to 10 mobs that do 10x more damage than the play can do and be immune to every crowd control and stun skill the player has, which is now very few to none.

A solo player on a Story Mode mission should never have to fight for their life in every single combat with NPC trash mobs.

A solo Story Mode mission should never be put inside a Heroic Zone like "Iron Beast" is on Runnik.

A solo player on a Story Mode Missions should ALWAYS be able to complete the Story Mode mission without constantly dying.

 

Being DEAD all the time....
Is NOT fun!

[Rujopetteri]

16 hours ago, denavin said:

Solo Story Mode Missions should be easy. They should be scaled to the lowest level player allowed to do that mission that is wearing the lowest UN-enhanced green gear for that level. Not scaled to the highest level player with the best gear in the game with every enhancement applied to that gear.

A solo player on a Story Mode mission should not be swarmed by 8 to 10 mobs that do 10x more damage than the play can do and be immune to every crowd control and stun skill the player has, which is now very few to none.

A solo player on a Story Mode mission should never have to fight for their life in every single combat with NPC trash mobs.

A solo Story Mode mission should never be put inside a Heroic Zone like "Iron Beast" is on Runnik.

A solo player on a Story Mode Missions should ALWAYS be able to complete the Story Mode mission without constantly dying.

 

Being DEAD all the time....
Is NOT fun!

I agree fully.

I won't object the OPTION to have a harder difficulty available though. That would be great. (Unless said difficulty increase is done the lazy way by increasing trash HP and damage output which doesn't make it harder or challenging, it just makes it take more time).

[Otowi]

An option or toggle for mission difficulty would be a good thing as long as the devs don't go crazy with the difficulty levels.

I would not want it to be like the highest difficulty level they have in Jedi Fallen Order or Survivor wich is very punishing and frustrating.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Otowi

[OlBuzzard]

53 minutes ago, Otowi said:

An option or toggle for mission difficulty would be a good thing as long as the devs don't go crazy with the difficulty levels.

I would not want it to be like the highest difficulty level they have in Jedi Fallen order or Survivor wich is very punishing and frustrating.

I suggested something like this a little over two years ago (IIRC)...  but in greater detail.  With the size of the team greatly reduced I moved to the idea of the wagon wheel concept for a varied level of difficulty in game play.  This would require less "instanced" type engagements for the different areas.  It would also allow for a more open area engagement of mobs.  This would allow for the possibility of meeting additional players making it possible to complete said areas more efficiently if needed.

The greater the variety in available mobs / levels of interactive activities the better off SWTOR will be.

[DWho]

1 hour ago, OlBuzzard said:

With the size of the team greatly reduced I moved to the idea of the wagon wheel concept for a varied level of difficulty in game play. 

This is sort of what it is like now. As you advance through the story (move toward the outer edge of the wheel), the mobs get tougher (at least for people not running around in BIS gear and max level on low level planets). In theory, the combat AI of the NPCs could be tiered based on the level of the PC(s) to include extra abilities and better utilization of stuns and knockbacks - instead of just using them immediately. You might even be able to adjust those tiers based on the character they are attacking (use combat routine A against a low level opponent and combat routine B when attacking a higher level opponent) that way mixed groups of levels could fight the same mobs together and all be "challenged".

It requires more effort from the Dev team but would, in the end, be a much more satisfying "harder" content and would not make the game difficult (or tedious) for the players that haven't been around for ages and collected all the boosts in the world. Alternatively, you could adjust level sync's stat reduction based on character level vs planet level or gear level vs planet level. Putting in the effort to improve mobs is a lot better than just turning them into "bullet sponges" and making them immune to player abilities.

The problem arises in how much effort to expend on making the game "harder" vs providing new content. It seems like most people would choose new content over reworking the vanilla game (7.0 was a major rework of the game with little new content and was rightly panned for it). Broadsword is not going to have more resources to devote to the game, EA is still paying them to maintain the game and the Devs are from Bioware (and fewer of them than are "currently" available).

[OlBuzzard]

5 minutes ago, DWho said:

This is sort of what it is like now. As you advance through the story (move toward the outer edge of the wheel), the mobs get tougher (at least for people not running around in BIS gear and max level on low level planets). In theory, the combat AI of the NPCs could be tiered based on the level of the PC(s) to include extra abilities and better utilization of stuns and knockbacks - instead of just using them immediately. You might even be able to adjust those tiers based on the character they are attacking (use combat routine A against a low level opponent and combat routine B when attacking a higher level opponent) that way mixed groups of levels could fight the same mobs together and all be "challenged".

It requires more effort from the Dev team but would, in the end, be a much more satisfying "harder" content and would not make the game difficult (or tedious) for the players that haven't been around for ages and collected all the boosts in the world. Alternatively, you could adjust level sync's stat reduction based on character level vs planet level or gear level vs planet level. Putting in the effort to improve mobs is a lot better than just turning them into "bullet sponges" and making them immune to player abilities.

The problem arises in how much effort to expend on making the game "harder" vs providing new content. It seems like most people would choose new content over reworking the vanilla game (7.0 was a major rework of the game with little new content and was rightly panned for it). Broadsword is not going to have more resources to devote to the game, EA is still paying them to maintain the game and the Devs are from Bioware (and fewer of them than are "currently" available).

Agreed!  Well said!

[Devolvio]

On 5/21/2023 at 9:16 AM, Leland_SmokeZz said:

People love to return to swtor and play these stories on occasion, making this content more fun and challenging would like reward the dev's with a more interested and committed fanbase who are more likely to continue playing. It is SO easy rn that even the most casual of players could not possibly struggle at any point, ever. You can auto attack everything to death.

 Thank you so much for posting this! 👍

I do only use the most basic attack now for most of my story scenes or there's just no sense of being in the moment.

I've been trying to think of all the ways I can milk the most out of those story-based combat scenes with my higher level characters, because  I *don't* want a repeat of the anti-climactic mess I made of the class (now origin) story on my 60+ Jedi Knight.

Most of the class story fights felt ridiculously quick and easy, but the worst moment was the encounter with a very-significant-person in a very-significant-temple that ended in less than 3 seconds when I accidentally killed them before anything really interesting happened.. 😭 All those hours of thrilling anticipation and preparing our crew's ensembles for our stealthy and daring attack, then I blinked.. and it was all over! 😭 ^^

I intend to trawl this thread for ideas of how I can nerf my higher level characters to make any remaining class stories feel like I matter in them. The story fights just end up feeling so antithetical to the tension of the stories when everyone crumbles if I tap them lightly, even when my companion is on passive. 😭

Edit: Lots of good ideas of how to nerf a high level character to make the class (now origin) story fights feel appropriately thumpy:

• Wear only grey gear.
• No active stims, no weapon crystals, no class or guildship buffs.
• No companion, or companion on passive.  (This is somewhat of a stumper in some scenes because quite often in the story I like them weighing in and being fighty and fabulous.)
• Replicate character exactly and play through the story with the mimic and then don't get distracted by PvP and Conquest and take them to level 80 before finishing Chapter 3 of the Class Story. (Speaking from rueful experience.) Almost like the real thing. 😑
• Enable Cybertechs to craft dodgy implants that impair your character's attributes.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Devolvio
Added list of how-to-nerf for story. =D

[Devolvio]

On 5/21/2023 at 11:19 AM, Goreshaga said:

What's fun for someone may not be fun at all for someone else.

I personally don't play this game to bang my head against walls over it being super difficult, and when enemies take to long to kill it becomes physically painful for me, so nope, I'm against raising the difficulty for everyone.

I'm all for people asking to have an OPTION to make it more difficult for themselves without affecting the ones who want the game to be easy though.

This! This would be absolutely amazing if it could be engineered!

I wonder if it could be at least made possible within class-story instances, even if it can't be effected in shared areas. Having that option to have a proper good set-to with each of the class-story bosses - that would be marvellous! 🤩

Edited August 7, 2023 by Devolvio

[Devolvio]

On 5/21/2023 at 5:20 PM, ThanderSnB said:

Yeah, it shouldn't be one difficulty for everyone. There should be different options.

It would be a debuff on the player. It wouldn't change the mobs, so that players that want it easier could keep it that way.

On 5/21/2023 at 5:36 PM, Goreshaga said:

There are several ways they could do that, some could even be combined :

• One or several items that would work in a similar fashion to the WAM and debuff the player so that their companions are less effective, they do less damage and take more damage in return (could be one that give a 25% debuff, one that gives a 50% and one that gives a 75% one for instance, so that people can adapt the game to the level of difficulty they want).
• Various instances of different difficulties on each planets, these would work in a similar way to the PvP instances, ennemies would be more difficult to beat in these instances.
• They could allow players to set different lvl syncs for themselves, so that the lower you set it the less forgiving it becomes by scaling the player to a lower level, so that some enemies would actually be of a higher lvl than the player, by scaling the player permanently to the planet's lowest lvl for instance.

This is genius.

Even if it couldn't be implemented in the game on its own, perhaps we could obtain an item or items, that could apply debuffs to our characters and simultaneously to our companions. Either in the form of an equippable item, or perhaps a consumable. (Preferrably something that doesn't run out at a crucial moment in your story cinematic. ^^)

A universal attribute debuff may be the simplest way to provide it, but I suppose you could have attribute-specific ones too. And like you say, provide a range of options for differing degrees of debuff. And with no level requirements, so that you can use them on any character you like. That would leave people free to test themselves to the limits of their class within their own story.

Self-applied debuffs seem a simpler solution than programming difficulty options into the game.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Devolvio
Added quote.

[SteveTheCynic]

2 hours ago, Devolvio said:

Enable Cybertechs to craft dodgy implants that impair your character's attributes.

That would be Biochemists, who craft all the other implants, but yes.

1 hour ago, Devolvio said:

A universal attribute debuff may be the simplest way to provide it, but I suppose you could have attribute-specific ones too. And like you say, provide a range of options for differing degrees of debuff. And with no level requirements, so that you can use them on any character you like. That would leave people free to test themselves to the limits of their class within their own story.

And make it available on every medical service vendor droid everywhere (especially the first one you meet as you exit the starter instance on the starter world) so that it's easy to obtain.

[Devolvio]

6 minutes ago, SteveTheCynic said:

That would be Biochemists, who craft all the other implants, but yes.

What's the things that go in ears again then? 🫠 ^^

[SteveTheCynic]

5 hours ago, Devolvio said:

What's the things that go in ears again then? 🫠 ^^

The game calls them "Ear".  So you can ...  No.  I mustn't do this.   No.  No.

Bah.  Can't stop myself.  (I'm not a big droid.)

Yo dawg!  I put an ear in your ear so you can hear while you hear.

[Ardrossan]

10 hours ago, Devolvio said:

I intend to trawl this thread for ideas of how I can nerf my higher level characters to make any remaining class stories feel like I matter in them. The story fights just end up feeling so antithetical to the tension of the stories when everyone crumbles if I tap them lightly, even when my companion is on passive. 😭

Edit: Lots of good ideas of how to nerf a high level character to make the class (now origin) story fights feel appropriately

You don't need to set your comp to passive, dps or tank works fine as a gimp. Avoid using high influence comps, instead use [story] comps that you haven't leveled much and switch them out when they get beyond influence rank 10. I specify story as you mentioned wanting comps that will comment on the story or provide ambient dialogue. An alternative approach would be to dismiss comps for most of the combat and only summon them when you hit the boss or the end of the instance so they can chime in. 

This won't be helpful for high level chars but if you make a new toon, use the WAM as others mentioned but also pay close attention to the planet max ranges on the galaxy map screen. Try to leave or finish up your business on planet when you hit the max. This isn't very effective for Act I planets but it does make encounters more difficult from Act 2 on.

tbh I think it's more likely that we'll get better balance once it moves over to broadsword because it should be fairly easy to make a wearable debuff and they seem okay with that part of game development. Whereas with Bioware I always felt that the WAM's alternative use was unintended and if we commented too loudly on it, they would notice and nerf it. 

[RebelJedaii]

Just saw this thread but haven't read all of it. But I thought I'd make an observation:
I have no idea how it works but the whole 'let the player choose difficulty' thing has just been implemented in Lord of the Rings Online.  Given that the game is older, you'd think SWTOR could do it too.  It seems to me that game has in some ways been given a lot more dev love than SWTOR....or maybe, it's the company that refused to reinvest its earnings back into it that didn't give it the love.  Says something that an older game has figured it out.

[Stradlin]

2 hours ago, RebelJedaii said:

Just saw this thread but haven't read all of it. But I thought I'd make an observation:
I have no idea how it works but the whole 'let the player choose difficulty' thing has just been implemented in Lord of the Rings Online.  Given that the game is older, you'd think SWTOR could do it too.  It seems to me that game has in some ways been given a lot more dev love than SWTOR....or maybe, it's the company that refused to reinvest its earnings back into it that didn't give it the love.  Says something that an older game has figured it out.

LOTRO is very impressive for sure. Game world is huge by now. I wish UI and character models weren't so obsolete. Besides those, the game  looks  beautiful even today.

Put it this way though..

In LOTRO,  New content patch drops! Entire patch consists solely of   Player character meeting with  Elrond and saying  "sup dude." Elrond responds with "sup". That's it. That's the patch.  In order to make this patch happen, some dev needs  to write a quest log including those three words.  ie narrative aspect of new patches is  relatively cheap to produce.

In SWTOR,  New content patch drops! Entire patch consists solely of  Player character meeting with Malgus and saying "sup dude." Malgus  responds  with "sup." That's it. That's the patch. In order to make this patch happen, just for this three word  dialogue between  two characters,  Broadsword needs work from 51 (fifty one) different voice actors.  That's not very cost efficient.  ie narrative aspects of a new patch are extremely costly to produce.

Significant portion of SWTOR playerbase gets...suspicious and annoyed if there are story-driven  content patches that don't include VA from playerchar. So that is where the money must go I guess.

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Stradlin

[Guyverarmor]

LOTRO difficulty slider has been a godsend honestly! Makes playing more fun knowing that if I take a group of two mobs there is a good chance I can die if I am not paying attention, using a consumable, etc. Couple that with the "Stone of Tortoise" to halt XP so I don't over level and enjoy the journey is epic. I am honestly upset SWTOR hasn't implemented this cause it seems like something that could be done in this game.

 

Secondly, a lot of the new content patches have more than just "Sup" for quests. Hell, next content patch update we are getting a new race (River Hobbits), Stat crunch along with additional quests and deeds updates AND class updates (Each class has been getting a decent rework each patch). And new expansion this year bringing in a new class (Mariner) more class fixes, and usually a good 150 or new quests and deeds along with the usual housing, PvP update. And SSG is def smaller than Broadsword for sure. But hey... people want voice acting for every single line has to deal with the fact that they will get very little and takes forever.

 

I'd rather have it how LOTRO and FFXIV does it: Some VO with huge updates.

[Stradlin]

 

39 minutes ago, Guyverarmor said:

 

 

Secondly, a lot of the new content patches have more than just "Sup" for quests. 

 

I'd rather have it how LOTRO and FFXIV does it: Some VO with huge updates.

 

Hey now, my example was about underlining how cost efficient it is to pour narrative content to LOTRO, I didn't mean it as a criticism of what is there. There is much in  writing in LOTRO that I like well. Last I played  was right around the time russia had started its attack on Ukraine. In that moment, discovering the mission about beauty of sunflowers hit me right in the feels.  In general, I like it that there is an MMO out there with a big, lenghty mission chain that is just about finding a pretty flower for the sake of its prettyness:3

[juliushorst]

On 8/7/2023 at 9:07 PM, Ardrossan said:

tbh I think it's more likely that we'll get better balance once it moves over to broadsword because it should be fairly easy to make a wearable debuff and they seem okay with that part of game development. Whereas with Bioware I always felt that the WAM's alternative use was unintended and if we commented too loudly on it, they would notice and nerf it. 

6.0 already had a buff based on your item rating so the solution is already in the game, it's just a matter of implementing it back.

Edited August 11, 2023 by juliushorst

[Shirvington]

As others have said, allow players to select how many levels down from the current level sync they want to be on any given planet.

Planet syncs you to 34? Allow players to select up to (some arbitrary number) 8 levels down from 34, and the game will reduce your stats to that level. Players would also get more experience from quests and mobs if they complete them at nerfed levels.

I would love the opportunity to play the class stories and have the end bosses give me a significant challenge, like the vibe from 1.0.

[Guyverarmor]

10 hours ago, Shirvington said:

As others have said, allow players to select how many levels down from the current level sync they want to be on any given planet.

Planet syncs you to 34? Allow players to select up to (some arbitrary number) 8 levels down from 34, and the game will reduce your stats to that level. Players would also get more experience from quests and mobs if they complete them at nerfed levels.

I would love the opportunity to play the class stories and have the end bosses give me a significant challenge, like the vibe from 1.0.

Honestly if they gave a NG+ mode of being able to replay Story missions, difficulty slider and ability to freeze xp so not feeling overleveld (Level sync does not cover this, I'm sorry but it doesn't) like LOTRO does with the "Stone of Tortoise" and it would def breathe life into the game I think. Hell, even through the XP disable on the CC like LOTRO does and you spur people into buying coins. It's a win-win and I see ZERO downside on this at all. If a 15year old game on possibly worse coding than SWTOR can do this, along with enabling a difficulty slider then the SWTOR devs are either lazy or just do not care.

 

I agree with ya, give me 1.0 difficulty. Don't have to force it on people but make it optional. You know...make your playerbase happy. It's wild when you actually do that you know... instead of staying silent like they do now.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Guyverarmor

[OlBuzzard]

As long as some see the increase of the difficulty level dramatically increased ... others might also wish to see the return of companions to pre 6.0 (or there abouts).

[Guyverarmor]

13 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

As long as some see the increase of the difficulty level dramatically increased ... others might also wish to see the return of companions to pre 6.0 (or there abouts).

Companions are another one I would love to see revert back! These days they are just too...bland I guess? I love having to gear companions, using certain ones for certain situations, and not as OP.

 

I know it's made the game easier these days for people who just want to faceroll everything but I do miss it.

[DWho]

11 hours ago, Shirvington said:

Planet syncs you to 34? Allow players to select up to (some arbitrary number) 8 levels down from 34, and the game will reduce your stats to that level. Players would also get more experience from quests and mobs if they complete them at nerfed levels.

The problem is that level sync is no longer a hard cap and better gear and more levels will always make the content easier. How do you define what is "hard" enough to qualify for increased rewards. Reducing a level 80 character 8 levels while they are wearing 336 gear might still be easier content than reducing a level 40 character 2 levels while wearing 226 gear in the same content. Since 7.0 your gear matters.

You would have to base it on the actual stats themselves (which aren't gong to be consistent based on the level sync "level") plus an adjustment for the abilities the character has (levels) in order to make it equal and that is probably beyond the ability of any player to determine (or even Bioware/Broadsword to determine as even the class you are using can impact the difficulty - stealthers for example) what actually constitutes "hard" enough for the xp/reward bonus.

[Spikanor]

36 minutes ago, DWho said:

The problem is that level sync is no longer a hard cap and better gear and more levels will always make the content easier. How do you define what is "hard" enough to qualify for increased rewards.

i think what you define what is hard if it give's you somewhat a challance to beat it.

before and after there added planet level sync the diffrend from battle the same boss fight shows how weaker and easyer the fight not has become.

for exepmple take the chapter 3 last boss fight from the sith worrier class.

when you look on youtube some old clips from it you see its a hard boss fight and the player is also around the same level as the boss fight and you needed a healer companion for sure to compleet it without it you are death for sure.

and if you look at it now with the planet sync system you not need a healer companion at all since its to easy since the boss level is level 10 and not 50 anymore.

so yea the planet sync has make the class story's and i think also other story line missions much weaker and easyer then it was before it.