.... It's starting to get really quiet out there

[krackcommando]

27 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

When I'm the carrier, I do appreciate a person in the EZ. The time for them to get there if I'm already by the pit is often too long. And if I'm the stealth in the end zone, often all I need is one player on my team who knows how to grab the spawn and bring it over, so they can either pass, or use me as a bridge to score (can't always count on the enemy to be clueless enough to provide that bridge instead). But having more than one stealth in the EZ is an over-kill except in very rare situations. It seems, many players don't use the overlay map in PVP (or can't read it for some reason). These days, it always makes me smile when I join a wz and see familiar names since it tells me that at least few people will know what they are doing. And it makes me chuckle when sometimes some smug noob starts giving instructions to a known vet in chat.

if you're a stealth class, you can just teleport to an enemy in the EZ. or a sorc can force speed there. drop a pw, and get there long before the ball carrier does. a sniper can sit on the platform, catch a ball in entrench and then roll to the EZ. there are so many simple ways to get to the EZ without handicapping your team by camping there the whole game, I think I'd give myself carpal tunnel just typing them all out.

the only reason to ever camp there is if your team is so dominant that they can get the ball and reach you every time, which makes you camping there rather redundant in the first place.

I ran a little experiment today. one of them is the generic hutball experience. It was more about showing how insignificant the "premade issue" really is, but I might as well post it here for the crappy WZ experience as well...

The Pit: https://youtu.be/oHRQZX5uwBk

the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5C7Lpj-uR6gyb0hXCdGUJh47WeFNzvtD

Edited April 23, 2023 by krackcommando

[VegaMist]

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

if you're a stealth class, you can just teleport to an enemy in the EZ.

That requires a clueless enemy in the EZ which you don't always get (unless of course few of them are running around EZ looking for a stealth).

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

or a sorc can force speed there. drop a pw, and get there long before the ball carrier does.

Again, requires a competent Sorc which is not a guarantee unless you queue with one.

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

a sniper can sit on the platform, catch a ball in entrench and then roll to the EZ

Depends on the map and the enemy. Sniper is often better off rolling to the spawn and then passing, though again requires a competent sniper.

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

there are so many simple ways to get to the EZ without handicapping your team by camping there the whole game, I think I'd give myself carpal tunnel just typing them all out.

Though none of them as reliable as having a friendly in the EZ. Yes, if you have good teammates - there is a lot you can do. Most of the time these days, you don't get that luxury (especially if you queue solo).

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

the only reason to ever camp there is if your team is so dominant that they can get the ball and reach you every time, which makes you camping there rather redundant in the first place.

If your team is dominant, camping is not required - it can speed things up, but you're winning regardless (unless your team starts ignoring the spawn point).

 

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

The Pit: https://youtu.be/oHRQZX5uwBk

In your sample video, one team (Rs) is clearly knowing what they are doing while the other has no clue. So, in this case, the match was predetermined before it started. Plus, it's an original map which I believe is the best one and allows for the widest variety of strategy. If 2-3 players on the Fs team knew how to play it, Rs would have had much tougher time. But that's match-making isn't it - sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

Edited April 24, 2023 by VegaMist
Typo

[TrixxieTriss]

12 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

Plus, it's an original map which I believe is the best one and allows for the widest variety of strategy.

It’s also the least buggy of all HB maps. I think if both teams are closely matched in skill, that map is by far the most fun. So many of my best matches have come to the last 15 secs to see who wins. Even when you lose matches like that, it can still be fun & highly rewarding. The way PvP should be. Sadly, most people don’t know the tactics or strategy these days 😞

Edited April 24, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Sappharan]

5 hours ago, VegaMist said:

And it makes me chuckle when sometimes some smug noob starts giving instructions to a known vet in chat.

You caught me.  I confess...it was me.  😝

[krackcommando]

3 hours ago, VegaMist said:

That requires a clueless enemy in the EZ which you don't always get (unless of course few of them are running around EZ looking for a stealth).

if you're stealth you can teleport to friend or foe. foe respawns. you're in stealth, you teleport to them. giving stealth classes teleport is ridiculously broken for any HB map. but disabling leap in quesh straight up destroys warrior classes. teleport shouldn't even exist. what a crazy add that was all those years ago. and to do it to friendlies as well. just...yeah. iunno.

3 hours ago, VegaMist said:

Again, requires a competent Sorc which is not a guarantee unless you queue with one.

literally any class can get ahead somehow. my actual POINT is above. that as a stealth class, you don't have to CAMP the EZ to be IN the EZ when your ball carrier needs you there.

in my example, we didn't need the stealther on the T at all. the other team was ignoring the game, which is par for the course in HB since at least 6.0.

3 hours ago, VegaMist said:

Though none of them as reliable as having a friendly in the EZ. Yes, if you have good teammates - there is a lot you can do. Most of the time these days, you don't get that luxury (especially if you queue solo).

people really need to get this out of their head that a person needs to CAMP the EZ to be in the EZ when it matters.

 

3 hours ago, VegaMist said:

In your sample video, one team (Rs) is clearly knowing what they are doing while the other has no clue. So, in this case, the match was predetermined before it started. Plus, it's an original map which I believe is the best one and allows for the widest variety of strategy. If 2-3 players on the Fs team knew how to play it, Rs would have had much tougher time. But that's match-making isn't it - sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

in my example one team is trying to win and the other is not. and it's only 3 ppl trying to win. it's legit a waste of time. but god forbid you leave w/o getting slapped with a debuff. it would've been even worse if you wanted to win on the other team. I see more ppl straight up leave HB than any other WZ (all HB maps but more Vandin and Quesh).

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by krackcommando
leeaving tacked on

[VegaMist]

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

if you're stealth you can teleport to friend or foe. foe respawns. you're in stealth, you teleport to them.

Not every stealth can teleport to friend. Plus, in order to do that, a friend has to be there. And getting ahead totally depends on who you are playing against - not every enemy team is completely incompetent like the one in the video you listed. And yes, in your example, all you had to do is remember to control the spawn.

I'm talking about a) balanced matches, or b) matches when enemy team is overpowering yours.

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

people really need to get this out of their head that a person needs to CAMP the EZ to be in the EZ when it matters.

I was in multiple games where we managed to win against far better teams (anyone who tried to "get ahead" so to say was melted) by having friendly at the spawn and friendly in the EZ (usually stealth, but not always). And no we were not a group - just enough people knew what to do. Is it the only possible strategy? Of course not. But is it viable? Absolutely.

Edited April 24, 2023 by VegaMist

[Whykara]

I'm on Tulak Hord and PvP is alive and well. Warzones pop all the time in the evening, Arenas are a little slower but not significantly. My subjective feeling is that PvP participation is actually on a high since PvP seasons have started.

[septru]

16 hours ago, imaplainbagel said:

I have no issue getting pops on Satele Shan any day of the week for regs or arenas. 

4 hours ago, Whykara said:

I'm on Tulak Hord and PvP is alive and well. Warzones pop all the time in the evening, Arenas are a little slower but not significantly. My subjective feeling is that PvP participation is actually on a high since PvP seasons have started.

 

My comments are less about the overall population. I'm sure that PvP Seasons grind has convinced a lot of casual and otherwise non-PvPers to dip their toe into PvP. 

I'm more commenting on the declining population of traditional PvPers; the non-casuals; the people who PvPed for the fun of it before PvP Seasons ever existed. I'm seeing far less familiar faces than before, including some of the big premades. At least on Star Forge where I play, a lot of longtime PvPers seem to be quitting the game or at least playing less frequently. I'm just guessing... but it might be because the meaningless Season grind is getting boring for PvPers. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by septru

[Whykara]

35 minutes ago, septru said:

I'm more commenting on the declining population of traditional PvPers; the non-casuals; the people who PvPed for the fun of it before PvP Seasons ever existed.

Oh ok I can't comment much on that, since I am one of the people who only really started playing PvP in 7.x when the seasons started. But what I can say is that there is definitely a new core of PvPers, I see familiar faces everytime and I'm quite certain that I myself have become a familiar face for some. So yes, maybe the old elite is now playing less frequently. But the good thing about seasons is, that people who started as casuals only for the grind have become quite good at PvP and are now part of the new core. Change is not always bad

[Headstylez]

The thing about casuals is they often find something else to be casual at relatively quickly once they feel they’ve seen everything to be seen.  Ranked play was at least another level to aspire towards. I’m sure many casuals would at least have some fantasy in the back of their mind about one day getting top 3 in the leaderboards.  
 

There is no next level now.  Just 25 levels rinse and repeat, season in season out.  Doesn’t matter what you do or how well you play, just how long you can grind.

[StrikePrice]

18 minutes ago, Headstylez said:

The thing about casuals is they often find something else to be casual at relatively quickly once they feel they’ve seen everything to be seen.  Ranked play was at least another level to aspire towards. I’m sure many casuals would at least have some fantasy in the back of their mind about one day getting top 3 in the leaderboards.  
 

There is no next level now.  Just 25 levels rinse and repeat, season in season out.  Doesn’t matter what you do or how well you play, just how long you can grind.

Yup, there's no skill to get weeklies or season goals. At the end of the season, the person who got 7000 points and lost every game gets equal rewards as the person who won every game. 

I realize you have to feed the sheep otherwise the wolves eat all the sheep and there are no sheep left and only a few wolves, then the wolves die. But at some point, losses have to *stop* giving any points or credit. Handing out so many participation trophies is just dumb. But, I suppose the dev team is most likely made up of people raised in the participation trophy era. 

[septru]

2 hours ago, Whykara said:

But the good thing about seasons is, that people who started as casuals only for the grind have become quite good at PvP and are now part of the new core. Change is not always bad

Oh for sure. I don't mean to be rude or demeaning to new PvPers. New PvPers are important to keeping the game alive. 

 

But there is a pretty noticeable difference in skill in new PvPers. New PvPers are just not as skilled as longtime PvPers. Everyone starts somewhere, and perhaps new players can eventually become as skilled. I'm just saying that the longtime PvPers seem to be getting bored with PvP because there are no rewards for being skilled. @Headstylez kind of hit it on the head: 

1 hour ago, Headstylez said:

There is no next level now.  Just 25 levels rinse and repeat, season in season out.  Doesn’t matter what you do or how well you play, just how long you can grind.

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by septru

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, Headstylez said:

The thing about casuals is they often find something else to be casual at relatively quickly once they feel they’ve seen everything to be seen.  Ranked play was at least another level to aspire towards. I’m sure many casuals would at least have some fantasy in the back of their mind about one day getting top 3 in the leaderboards.  
 

There is no next level now.  Just 25 levels rinse and repeat, season in season out.  Doesn’t matter what you do or how well you play, just how long you can grind.

removing rated in the same patch that they created a dedicated arena queue that would allow players to learn the ins and outs of arenas (i.e., practice them) is just kind of staggering. as many have said, the removal of content - any content - in a game that struggles to deploy new content on a regular basis is just a head scratcher.

I used to queue rated every night, and while I can't be bothered or stressed to do it anymore, it's just flabbergasting to think that they ditched it when they did. look at what has become of WZs when the really good players don't queue or queue and don't play to win anymore. 3 in 5 matches are a complete embarrassment. 

[omeru]

It will be even worse these are good days. As long as this terrible dev and community team continues ignore what comminity wants and adds their terrible ideas we will see pops only on prime hours. But it is not easy to spend months and change lots of stuff and make things worse. 

[Headstylez]

I don’t think they’re terrible.  However, I suspect there’s a lot of groupthink, punching in and punching out, and an overall lack of passion and understanding for the games potential at work at multiple levels

[TrixxieTriss]

5 hours ago, septru said:

Oh for sure. I don't mean to be rude or demeaning to new PvPers. New PvPers are important to keeping the game alive. 

 

But there is a pretty noticeable difference in skill in new PvPers. New PvPers are just not as skilled as longtime PvPers. Everyone starts somewhere, and perhaps new players can eventually become as skilled. I'm just saying that the longtime PvPers seem to be getting bored with PvP because there are no rewards for being skilled. @Headstylez kind of hit it on the head: 

 

Pretty sure most of those players left after ranked was dropped from the game. Some obviously came back, but many have left again after season 1 because of the reasons you suggest. But I know of at least 4 ranked players who’ve had enough of group vs solo in the Arena queue. If BioWare had kept Arena solo or made separate queues, I’m sure more would have stayed. 
 

[Sappharan]

Subscription finally ran out.  Preferred for me until they undo deserter debuff and 8mans.  So, to be clear, I want 4man premades and a revocation of the deserter debuff.

[drspookz]

14 hours ago, septru said:

 

My comments are less about the overall population. I'm sure that PvP Seasons grind has convinced a lot of casual and otherwise non-PvPers to dip their toe into PvP. 

I'm more commenting on the declining population of traditional PvPers; the non-casuals; the people who PvPed for the fun of it before PvP Seasons ever existed. I'm seeing far less familiar faces than before, including some of the big premades. At least on Star Forge where I play, a lot of longtime PvPers seem to be quitting the game or at least playing less frequently. I'm just guessing... but it might be because the meaningless Season grind is getting boring for PvPers. 

u literally keep talking in circles dude, every time someone points out u blatantly contradicting urself it’s always “oh that wasn’t what I meant” as u proceed to say essentially the same thing. we get it, swtor was ur game for years and ranked pvp was the biggest part of it for u, and they took that away from u. anyone can empathize with that, i for one certainly can, but ur so obviously passive aggressive about it that it gets annoying to read. u keep trying to bait people into arguments but when u can’t defend urself and keep beating around the bush, it’s not a good look

im well aware of your prior efforts on these forums to explain why ranked should be brought back and ofc i agree with all of it, but it’s very clearly just not going to happen and it completely sucks that ur game is just gone. as much as I feel bad for u and the other ranked players, the passive aggressive baiting just gets annoying after a while, and u are much less likely to get anyone new on your side. just calling out to the void atp

[Tasaas]

On 4/23/2023 at 12:51 PM, StrikePrice said:

The natural progression is small group of people playing against each other. PvP will descend to that. BW will say "not enough people to continue to support". I mean, how many people would quit if PvP went away? <100?

If PVP was gone, I would disappear forever.   I would go back to FPS games.

[StrikePrice]

2 hours ago, Tasaas said:

If PVP was gone, I would disappear forever.   I would go back to FPS games.

You, me and about 98 other people. 

[septru]

11 hours ago, drspookz said:

just gets annoying after a while

buddy this is the forums. if something is annoying... just stop reading. shocking ikr. 

 

 

[Sappharan]

4 hours ago, Tasaas said:

If PVP was gone, I would disappear forever.

Not into fps at all, i like rtt/rts games, but I agree with you.  Even though I am not playing PvP right now, I hope things that I hate (deserter debuff and 8mans) will go away (not all premades, just 8mans) and I will PvP again.  If there were no hope, I would not have much interest in the game anymore.

Now, I MAY go into PvP prior to those things, but paying for it before the staggering issues are corrected is unwise.  But, it will make finishing my hearing either difficult or impossible.  I had no idea what you do not get when on preferred status.  First time in 11 years I allowed my subscription to lapse.

 

edited to add:  maybe 8 man premades are not as bad as I thought…but it is still a ludicrous idea.

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Sappharan

[steveerkcanjerk]

Idk i get queue pops pretty quickly and regularly of both arena and warzones. Maybe i am on at the right time. But I don't think removal of ranked would hurt a queue full of players that never even touched the mode. Also its been a bit since season started, pop is gonna go up and down just kinda how that works. Other games come out, people do other activities in the game itself. Jedi Survivor is about to drop this weekend i imagine that will effect the games pop. 

[Fynnlagh]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:15 AM, VegaMist said:

And it makes me chuckle when sometimes some smug noob starts giving instructions to a known vet in chat.

It's only you knowing someone is a vet and based on my experience 60% of the vets haven't improved in years and are still completely clueless or have been running premades and were carried by their team vs randoms.

It's not that easy.

[Tharianus]

They removed ranked long time ago (8vs8) not just recently (arenas) with 7.x

Original rated was 8v8.

Arena ranked never filled that gap ever in those 8 years (Player participation) - and yes i played 8vs8 AND Arena ranked.

Now arenastars witness the same situation 8v8 ranked players/guilds witnessed 8 years before. Their favourite game Mode is removed and we have a decline in pvp participation- what a surprise 😅