The new Queue Match System

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, Samcuu said:

Either that or they simply won't address it because it's an asinine idea. Their game is an mmo. Mmos are a thing because they create a community and bring ppl together to play the game. Making it harder for ppl who are social and want to group up with friends to get pops in the wz queue is the biggest non starter of all non starters, it contradicts the entire idea of an mmorpg. In fact they just did the opposite and expanded premade groups to 8 lol.

Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t make asinine. 

[Amunra-amunray]

19 hours ago, septru said:

To quote our lord and savor Eric Musco, "I get it." Premades create an inherently advantage. No one is denying this. But at the end of the day, you can have this same exact advantage. All it takes is a simple whisper: "hey you were really good in that warzone. Want to group up?" Maybe you have a crippling neurological disorder that prevents you from making friends. Maybe you have a game breaking bug where you can't use whispers. But none of these are good reasons to fundamentally change the game for the 90% of players who can and should make groups. Premades have a positive impact on the game and should be incentivized for all players. But because you don't want to bother making a group, you selfishly want to remove all the incentives for other players to group up. In fact, you want to disincentivize premades with long que times. All because you lost a game to a group of people who bothered to make friends. How incredibly selfish. 

This notion is fundamentally FLAWED...

I do not want to stop Groups from being able to group up... i have 0 issues with this... my issue is that they are not playing against other groups....

Groups should be fighting groups PERIOD... or else why was it created at the forefront of the game...

The only reason for its removal is they complain about queue match wait times.... and for this solo players must suffer at the hands of elites and or pro teams and maybe not always pro teams but then also teams that are really good working together...

I have no issues making friends... but I do that in the REAL world I don't come to a game to make friends... i come to game to escape the real and try to have fun... but apparently according to Musco only groups are allowed to have fun...

 

[septru]

10 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

BioWare can accommodate both types of play types if they are willing to try.

And they haven't already? After 7.2.1, 75% of the time I que in a premade I get against another premade. Solo players might feel like they are always going against premades, when in reality most of the time they have a premade on their team too. 

5 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Separating the queues doesn't prevent guildies from teaching the secrets of pvp to new players.

Except for the fact that separate ques both disincentivizes grouping up with extremely long que times and removes all incentives to group up. 

3 hours ago, Amunra-amunray said:

Solo players must suffer at the hands of elites and or pro teams and maybe not always pro teams but then also teams that are really good working together...

So because you aren't as good as the players in a group, you want to remove all groups? So incredibly self-centered. At the end of the day, you want everything spoon fed to you. They want to win every game, or at least have the chance of winning every game. When you goes up against a premade its suffering, the game mode is rigged against you. It's CHEATING..... except for the fact that you can group up too. 

 

 

[septru]

10 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

When Boiware ignore the majority in favour of the few, they alienate a large amount of players (doesn’t matter what part of the game it is).

I also wanted to address this point. Of course, BioWare should not ignore the vast majority of casuals in the game. However, the day that they start catering to these casuals at the expense of the few, is the day the game dies.

 

You saw this with ranked. Removing ranked pvp was the single biggest **** up BioWare ever made (and that's saying a lot), which has hurt the whole PvP community. Without ranked, there are no incentives to become a better player, and  as a result you're seeing this in the skill gap of the PvP community. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by septru

[DeannaVoyager]

29 minutes ago, septru said:

 

Except for the fact that separate ques both disincentivizes grouping up with extremely long que times and removes all incentives to group up. 

 

 

And putting solo players against premades disincentivizes solo players wanting to play pvp at all. That will lead up to extremely long queue times for ALL pvp players. But you guys don't care about that. It's all about what you guys personally want (free, effortless matches that pop fast and end fast), not what would be good for the community (bigger playerbase, balanced matches).

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, septru said:

I also wanted to address this point. Of course, BioWare should not ignore the vast majority of casuals in the game. However, the day that they start catering to these casuals at the expense of the few, is the day the game dies.

 

You saw this with ranked. Removing ranked pvp was the single biggest **** up BioWare ever made (and that's saying a lot), which has hurt the whole PvP community. Without ranked, there are no incentives to become a better player, and  as a result you're seeing this in the skill gap of the PvP community. 

You make good points & I 100% agree regarding ranked. I also don’t think BioWare should cater to “only” one group.

I’ve always been a firm advocate of not isolating & ignoring one part of the player base in favour of another.

That’s always been BioWares mistake & they have used it to pit parts of the community against each other.

They did it with the ranked community vs the reg community. And now they are doing the same with people in favour of premades vs solo queuers. 

There is a solution to the dilemma & I’m sure that if BioWare discussed it with the player base, there is a solution that accommodates both sides of this situation. 

[Prapcaster]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:49 AM, TrixxieTriss said:

You make good points & I 100% agree regarding ranked. I also don’t think BioWare should cater to “only” one group.

I’ve always been a firm advocate of not isolating & ignoring one part of the player base in favour of another.

That’s always been BioWares mistake & they have used it to pit parts of the community against each other.

They did it with the ranked community vs the reg community. And now they are doing the same with people in favour of premades vs solo queuers. 

There is a solution to the dilemma & I’m sure that if BioWare discussed it with the player base, there is a solution that accommodates both sides of this situation. 

I think it's fair to assume that with them not even addressing that 8 mans are even an issue is them saying they've more or less abandoned pvp. Adding a grind instead of actual competition was pretty much their way of saying shut up and deal with it. Pvp had a good run but it looks like the devs are just looking for ways to collect paychecks with as minimal work as possible now. Sucks to see because this game used to be genuinely amazing and could've been the best mmo to exist if they hired capable people to run it.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Prapcaster

[septru]

1 hour ago, Prapcaster said:

if they hired capable people to run it.

 

On 12/8/2022 at 2:24 PM, EricMusco said:

We get it.

[DarrelK]

Weird logic all around. Bad players/noobs/whatever should be losing. Good players should be stomping. That's how PvP works.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

2 minutes ago, DarrelK said:

Weird logic all around. Bad players/noobs/whatever should be losing. Good players should be stomping. That's how PvP works.

Only when bad/new players are matched against good players.

Proper matchmaking would put bad/new players against other bad/new players.  Good players against other Good players.

That's how well-designed PvP works.

[DarrelK]

This game barely has like 3-4 good players online at a time. They will farm the others.

[DaltarSpitfire]

On 4/14/2023 at 9:56 AM, septru said:

Premades are good for the game. Playing with other players helps players learn the game, explore other classes and roles, creates a desire to improve, and (from a BioWare perspective) keeps players engaged and interested in the game. 

I want you to say this to my face after you que all day saturday from 7 am till midnight. and you get run over, rolled through, train wrecked, and straight up ganked and or graped by every pre-made team on  SF that ques. 

i'm sorry but 30-40 straight losses due to being put on team of undergeared noobs against a 4 man pre-made will change your mindset. 

 

I am not the greatest pvper. and i will never claim anything close. but i have pvped in this game since Launch, and Wow for 16+ years before coming here. so i know and understand what to do and how to do it.  

[Samcuu]

1 hour ago, DaltarSpitfire said:

i'm sorry but 30-40 straight losses due to being put on team of undergeared noobs against a 4 man pre-made will change your mindset. 

I question if this is true. Has to be hyperbole. Nobody can lose 30 - 40 matches in a row. Law of averages is that you'd get on a premades team at least half the time and win a few. 

Regardless yes losing sucks especially if you are chasing after weekly/daily objectives and the requirement is to win. However you as a player have options. You really don't have to keep queuing into a match at a disadvantage if you choose not to, we all know the definition of insanity. It all comes down to what your motivation is. Do u just want to grind out a pvp season for the cheevos/rewards if you don't actually enjoy playing? Be constructive and ask some questions of yourself.

How can I win more often? My recommendation is focusing on a toon/class that you feel most comfortable with and are confident in ur abilities on, and dedicating that toon to a pvp guild. The ppl who are beating you are using all the advantages that you aren't. Grouping with like minded players for one, using voice comms, working better as a team. Organizing with your guild to have a pvp night(s). I can guarantee that you'll not only win more, but you'll have more fun, and with an open line of communication you'll learn more about your own class and other classes, which will lead to you becoming a better pvper. 

Again, this course of action takes some dedication to pvp. If you don't really like doing it, and are just there for the rewards then I don't see you or anyone like minded actually putting in the work to get better and improve their chances of winning. Like I said before the ppl you are losing to probably just have more fun/passion for the game mode.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Samcuu

[Prapcaster]

6 hours ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

Only when bad/new players are matched against good players.

Proper matchmaking would put bad/new players against other bad/new players.  Good players against other Good players.

That's how well-designed PvP works.

If only there was a rating system that seperated higher skilled players.

[krackcommando]

12 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

I question if this is true. Has to be hyperbole. Nobody can lose 30 - 40 matches in a row. Law of averages is that you'd get on a premades team at least half the time and win a few.

I agree. but I did run into a buzz saw when my win percentage was in the 70s. I got it back up to mid 60s now (on one toon). I assume the hidden ratings are per toon? b/c my other toons are in the 50s at this point. what's funny is the toon now in the mid 60s actually had a losing record coming into 80s while the other two had 80% plus records when they entered 80s, and all but the first one were wearing 332 the second they dinged.

talking about arenas. I generally ignore WZ ratios as I'm just as likely to screw around in them as try to win (gotta go with the flow when you're solo).

[DaltarSpitfire]

23 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

I question if this is true. Has to be hyperbole. Nobody can lose 30 - 40 matches in a row. Law of averages is that you'd get on a premades team at least half the time and win a few. 

 

30 - 40 matches lost in a row is true. has happened to me twice since December.  The only info that you don't know is it was not on the same toon. as I rotate through my toons when i finish a weekly. 

Yes my toons all have 332+ gear. most of them have purple augs. Yes i understand how to play each class and most of the specs.

only specs i don't play are Jugg dps, and PT Dps. 

i do play all three tank specs just fine. and i'm fairly decent at Sin/ Op.

[Samcuu]

39 minutes ago, DaltarSpitfire said:

30 - 40 matches lost in a row is true. has happened to me twice since December.  The only info that you don't know is it was not on the same toon. as I rotate through my toons when i finish a weekly. 

Yes my toons all have 332+ gear. most of them have purple augs. Yes i understand how to play each class and most of the specs.

only specs i don't play are Jugg dps, and PT Dps. 

i do play all three tank specs just fine. and i'm fairly decent at Sin/ Op.

Great come play with me and guard me and I'll carry u to a lot of wins 👍👍

In all seriousness tho, join a group of pvpers and use ur skill set to help the team win. Guarantee you won't lose that many in a row queueing with other competent players. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Samcuu

[remylion]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:39 AM, septru said:

Just because you say it twice, does not make it any less dumb. 

 

A separate que is a terrible greate idea. 

queue

Having at least three people on your team that know how to play objectives can greatly increase a teams chance to win pug vs pug. Having six to eight players that know what to do, can communicate over voice, synchronize their builds, and work together in every match sharing the same goal not only guarantees a win but the premade will slaughter the pug team which probably can't even figure out how to throw a ball to a team mate.

People defending their need to group against pugs is about protecting their fun above giving pugs a fair game.

I have read a few things in this argument.

1. "There aren't many premades anyway so it isn't a big deal"
2. "If you separate us premades your queue times will increase drastically because we make up the majority of players!!"

so... which is it? Are premades such a minority it isn't a really an issue or are premades so numerous it will have a negative impact on PUG queues if they are separated?

It's a bit sad players are defending premade teams against pugs because they are afraid of losing an overwhelming advantage in PvP.

Edited April 17, 2023 by remylion

[Ramalina]

From a game design standpoint there isn't a problem.

 

Warzones and Arenas for solo players do not exist.  Period.  End of story.   The fundamental design of WZs and Arenas is for team play.   The pre-mades aren't invading the solo-noobs' garden of paradise and cheat-stomping them into the dust; the clueless and lazy are being allowed into a team format PvP content without being forced to show the competence or teamwork that are prerequisites for success.    Solo-WZ tears are just as illogical as Solo Vet-ops tears.   If you want to succeed in group activity reward tracks that are oriented towards high skilled cooperative play, you need to show up with skill, and that includes skill at operating as part of a team.

 

Solo PvP by design DOES exist in SWTOR.   You walk up to another player, mouse over their portrait, right click, and challenge them to a duel.  Unlike solo PvE, there is no reward of any sort for solo PvP, other than perhaps personal enjoyment.    I suppose you could ague that world PvP in a PvP instance or on Tatooine is potentially Solo PvP, and potentially has rewards, but it's also potentially 40 vs 40 or 40 vs 1, so I'm not sure that really counts.

 

If you want content designed for solo PvP with a rewards track, you need to ask Bioware to create that content, because currently it does not exist in SWTOR.

 

If they stuck to consistency in design principles, which would be admittedly very odd for the SWTOR team, then you'd expect Solo PvP to be a role neutral 4 v 4 groupfinder format that rewarded green gear up to 336 with the same itemization budget per piece as Veteran FP gear.     Arenas would then be a role balance required groupfinder mixed group or solo queue with rewards equivalent to MM FPs, and WZs would be the equivalent of Vet ops, meaning 336 blue gear with improved stat budgets and no groupfinder option for queuing, basically evicting solo players from high end group PvP reward tracks.  

WZs at present allow people to get gear at itemization levels that they don't "deserve" based on the teamwork and skill requirements of the content, at least if you're taking PvE rewards as a baseline.

 

SWTOR has failed generally to do a good job at ground PvP content.  So creating content that's meant to be solo-PvP oriented with an accompanying reward track might actually be really good for PvP in SWTOR.   The problems are, the rewards are going to be inferior to what PvP currently gives, and there's going to be a wait because Bioware will have to make an attempt at figuring out how to do solo friendly PvP content that's role, gear, and skill neutral.   Not entirely sure what the point of skill neutral PvP is supposed to be, but this thread is full of people asking for it, so it's worth a try?  I mean, if they can make it FUN, then it should work.   That would probably mean much better incentives for cooperation and politeness in the game design for solo PvP content.   Honestly, if they could figure out good solo PvP content, they could probably take lessons from that to improve the existing group PvP content.

 

Edit:  One place to start might be a hybrid PvE / PvP style of content.   For example build  a wall or tower or some other indirect competition where players can build score on their own, but benefit from teamwork (blatantly obvious noob-friendly teamwork), with interludes of either indirect PvP  (attack their turret, heal or tank for your turrets), or direct PvP, cycling through these phases several times per game.   So  there's competition, but some avenue for success for those people totally incompetent at direct PvP.   There's a spectrum here that can range from mostly competitive PvE to almost pure PvP.   Well designed, you could have a progression from less PvP to more as skill grows, with a bit of RNG in what pops just to keep things from getting stale.   Sort of a PvP - Lite family of content, for those that want competition stiffer and less predictable than NPC scripts, but aren't really interested in advanced team based PvP content.

Not gonna hold my breath for any of that though.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Ramalina

[AwesomeTacoCat]

33 minutes ago, Ramalina said:

From a game design standpoint there isn't a problem.

 

Warzones and Arenas for solo players do not exist.  Period.  End of story.   The fundamental design of WZs and Arenas is for team play.   The pre-mades aren't invading the solo-noobs' garden of paradise and cheat-stomping them into the dust; the clueless and lazy are being allowed into a team format PvP content without being forced to show the competence or teamwork that are prerequisites for success.    Solo-WZ tears are just as illogical as Solo Vet-ops tears.   If you want to succeed in group activity reward tracks that are oriented towards high skilled cooperative play, you need to show up with skill, and that includes skill at operating as part of a team.

“High skilled cooperative play?” They removed ranked buddy, we have regs now. It’s populated mostly by undergeared 3k dps node clickers. High skilled cooperative play? Get out of town lol. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by AwesomeTacoCat

[septru]

 

3 hours ago, remylion said:

I have read a few things in this argument.

Obviously you didn't read, because those were not any of my 3 arguments.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by septru

[TrixxieTriss]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:57 PM, septru said:

And they haven't already? After 7.2.1, 75% of the time I que in a premade I get against another premade. Solo players might feel like they are always going against premades, when in reality most of the time they have a premade on their team too. 

Not properly. It’s a half baked system that doesn’t accommodate either play style properly. But its even more heavily tilted towards always giving pre-made players an advantage now than at any time in the game’s history. 

Bioware can & should make the system better so it doesn’t alienate solo players or premades. The only solution is splitting the queue AND at the same time build up PvP player numbers so that pops aren’t affected (which they are already trying to do with these new seasons).

The one thing we both agree on is 8 man premades in a pug queue is too much. And as much as I’d like to see premades have their own seperate queue, the compromise is to reduce the pre-made size limit back to 4 man 🤷🏻‍♀️

Unless BioWare does that & adjusts the times premades have to wait till they are put against solo players, then seasons won’t work to bring in enough pvpers to build a healthy community & possibly allow for a split in the queues.

This is the main problem as I see it. BioWare are trying to increase pvper player numbers with seasons ✅. But at the same time making it a miserable experience for many of those players ❌. They are literally sabotaging their own plan by adding 5-8 man premades to the pug queue ❌.

Not only that, but having premades vs solo pugs in arena is 100% stupid. We know for a fact that if they’d tried that with ranked it would have died as a format within a few seasons. We already saw that group ranked wasn’t popular. So why did they thing that premades vs solo’s was every going to work 🤦‍♀️

BioWare is chasing its own tail as usual instead of building a system that works properly 😞

Edited April 18, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, remylion said:

 

I have read a few things in this argument.

1. "There aren't many premades anyway so it isn't a big deal"
2. "If you separate us premades your queue times will increase drastically because we make up the majority of players!!"

so... which is it?

This is what annoys me about this discussion. A few people advocating for premades keep both siding the argument.

They need to make up their minds because it only makes them look ridiculous & ingenuous to anyone reading their arguments. 

It’s no wonder premaders are being accused of not wanting to give up the advantage in PvP against solo players because those arguing for premades aren’t being genuine. 

As much as I firmly believe that premades should have a seperate queue. I also believe there are legitimate reasons to have them in the game, they bring lots of positives too.

But all the positives they bring is being derided by a few people with this asinine way of arguing that they are both the minority & the majority of the player base. Pick a position & stick to it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Edited April 18, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Sappharan]

18 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

The one thing we both agree on is 8 man premades in a pug queue is too much. And as much as I’d like to see premades have their own seperate queue, the compromise is to reduce the pre-made size limit back to 4 man 🤷🏻‍♀️

This could happen yesterday and it would not be fast enough.  Presently they have given us chicken 💩 while trying to tell us we're getting chicken salad. 

[TrixxieTriss]

2 minutes ago, Sappharan said:

This could happen yesterday and it would not be fast enough. 

Agreed, it cannot happen fast enough. And who ever thought this was a good idea in the first place needs a serious talking to 🤦🏻‍♀️