Please Run a Player Survey about Premades vs Solo

[DeannaVoyager]

2 hours ago, black_pyros said:

You don't need to run a survey if people want to pay taxes or not. The outcome is obvious - both for the survey and for the society that would follow such a survey results.

Now, you don't need to run a survey about premades vs solo in a game full of recluses, loners, or hermits that absolutely refuse to interact and socialize with other players even if their life depended on it, either.

Most players will likely say they don't PvP, don't care about PvP, and quickly return to their solo-instanced activities, SH decorating, and space barbie-ing in their own galaxies as far away as possible from others, as usual.

Just because most people want something, it doesn't make it automatically beneficial to them or the whole playerbase in the long run. Often, people's wishes are their worst enemies.

Prime example of this is the OP, that is too shortsighted to see that if BW really based game decisions on what the majority wants, there would be no more premades in PvP - because there would be no PvP at all.

 

Funny. All that you said applies to the people who insist on keeping their meta class premades to guarantee easy win "pvp" instead real pvp. People who need advantage over others to be able to "compete" in a video game. People who are unable or lack imagination on how to play the game without needing to be surrounded by other people 24/7. To me it sounds like the premades need solo players more than solo players needs premades. Now where does that leave you guys, after you get rid of all the solo players? It certainly won't be beneficial for the premades or the whole playerbase in the long run when solo players quit playing. 

If you'd truly care about pvp, you'd care why people don't want to play it in it's current state and maybe think of making it more appealing for everyone, instead of trying to force majority of the players to "enjoy" getting farmed in unbalanced matches. 

 

I find it interesting that so many people are against running a SURVEY. Are you afraid of the outcome?

[black_pyros]

38 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

I find it interesting that so many people are against running a SURVEY. Are you afraid of the outcome?

Be careful in your holy crusade against premades to ask the actual majority what it wants. You may not like it.

I think surveys like this are pointless and total waste of resources but I am not against it. I am all for it, so the majority of players will tell you the bitter truth they don't PvP at all and BW should remove it. Again - not to remove premades but to remove PvP as a whole.

Also, I am not afraid that BW are crazy enough to make significant game decisions based on surveys and shortsighted players opinions.

Edited February 22, 2023 by black_pyros

[TrixxieTriss]

7 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

Be careful in your holy crusade against premades to ask the actual majority what it wants. You may not like it.

I think surveys like this are pointless and total waste of resources but I am not against it. I am all for it, so the majority of players will tell you the bitter truth they don't PvP at all and BW should remove it. Again - not to remove premades but to remove PvP as a whole.

Also, I am not afraid that BW are crazy enough to make significant game decisions based on surveys and shortsighted players opinions.

Why would BioWare add a question about removing pvp 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

 

[black_pyros]

2 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Why would BioWare add a question about removing pvp 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

 

And why would they ask any question in the first place? Just because you want it?

[TrixxieTriss]

10 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

And why would they ask any question in the first place? Just because you want it?

🤦‍♀️ do you not understand how surveys work. They ask set questions. 

[black_pyros]

6 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

🤦‍♀️ do you not understand how surveys work. They ask set questions. 

No, it's you that don't understand that if BW ever run a survey (and most likely they won't), they will ask their own questions, not those you dictate them.

You want this all to support your current narrative, that changes over time based on your personal needs. Back in then, when you had enough friends in game to form a premade, you weren't advocating the needs of soloers. However, that conveniently changed after your friends fled from the game leaving only you and your wife to play together.

Sudenly, premades were that bad big monster and you started to fight for 2-man only premades - to conveniently fill the needs of you and your wife. But that narrative is also no longer valid - one can only guess why. Probably it's because you no longer have even a single person to queue with.

However, pointing out one's hypocrisy is not enough to validate my argument either and it's not the key issue, here. The key point is, you wan't to separate queues and that would hurt the premades in the long run. Team ranked "popularity" against the solo one is the prime example.

To support your current narrative, you want BW to run a survey with a question that only suits your needs; argumenting that majority doesn't like to fight premades and we should all care about well-being of the majority - thus punish premades and justify all of this with your survey.

Conveniently, you don't truly care what an actual majority wants. You are only using the term 'majority' to support your needs. Actual majority probably doesn't want to touch PvP with a ten-foot pole and if BW truly listened to your crazy agenda and base the game decisions on a survey about what an actual majority (and not yours dreamed one) wants, they would actually have to remove PvP.

[black_pyros]

Also I will say nothing new when I say that an experience of a player is based on a personal skill first and foremost. Of course, teaming-up with other skilled players you can trust and rely on will lead to a better experience overall. That's the point of premading in the first place, if not the social aspect of playing with friends.

However, existence of premades has nothing common with an individual skill of each and every player. That means, player lacking the skill will continue to have a miserable experience against better skilled opponents no matter if the opponents are in premade or not. Removing premades will not change that. I am sorry, but it truly won't.

If all you care about is a win-rate, then join or form a premade. If all you care about is fun, then improve your own skill and stop blaming premades.

Skilled players already have over 50% win rate when queueing solo. They have a fun experience in PvP, because they are skilled. Unlike bad players, they will continue to have a fun experience even when premades are removed, while bad players will continue to have a miserable experience no matter what, unless they practice and improve their own skill. However, premades will simply have no more experience, if you remove them. It hurts them while it doesn't help bad players.

 

[DeannaVoyager]

3 hours ago, black_pyros said:

Be careful in your holy crusade against premades to ask the actual majority what it wants. You may not like it.

 

 Be careful in your holy crusade to get rid of solo players. You may not like it.

 

18 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

Of course, teaming-up with other skilled players you can trust and rely on will lead to a better experience overall.

For premade players. In voice chat. With meta classes and roles.

Of course having advantage over other group is a better experience for them.  Duh! I don't mind premades playing against premades. You both would have advantage over each other... oh wait... that would mean a fair playground  😟and you all would actually have to work for it. Yes, I can see why someone would see that problematic.

 

26 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

Skilled players already have over 50% win rate when queueing solo.

50% is average, not skilled.

[black_pyros]

13 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

 Be careful in your holy crusade to get rid of solo players. You may not like it.

I have absolutely nothing against solo players, I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.

16 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

For premade players. In voice chat. With meta classes and roles.

Of course having advantage over other group is a better experience for them.  Duh! I don't mind premades playing against premades. You both would have advantage over each other... oh wait... that would mean a fair playground  😟and you all would actually have to work for it. Yes, I can see why someone would see that problematic.

PvP is never fair. Skilled players will always have advantage over less skilled players, no matter what. However, I prefer premades to face premades as well, just not in separate queue. Separate queue will kill premades. You know it, I know it, BW knows it, everyone does.

16 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

50% is average, not skilled.

I said over 50%. Please, re-read my post.

[ZUHFB]

2 hours ago, black_pyros said:

If all you care about is a win-rate, then join or form a premade. If all you care about is fun, then improve your own skill and stop blaming premades.

Skilled players already have over 50% win rate when queueing solo. They have a fun experience in PvP, because they are skilled. Unlike bad players, they will continue to have a fun experience even when premades are removed, while bad players will continue to have a miserable experience no matter what, unless they practice and improve their own skill.

I have 65%+ winrate completely solo, that doesn't mean that I even consider playing against a premade. Sure I won vs. some premades because they are horrible but in arena, when I'm against something MVPs or Q-Sync with a 321 sorc healer I'm stucking and my time is wasted, its a terrible experience, there is nothing anybody could learn from this game, there is no point in playing it at all. Premades simply shouldn't be allowed to play arenas, while they still can my experience (even with a good winrate) will be miserable. Without premades my winrate would be 15% higher, and that is true for everybody - no matter the skill.

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, black_pyros said:

PvP is never fair. Skilled players will always have advantage over less skilled players, no matter what. However, I prefer premades to face premades as well, just not in separate queue. Separate queue will kill premades. You know it, I know it, BW knows it, everyone does.

 

Skill has nothing to do with even playground and fair game.  Fair game is when no-one has advantage over others, such as meta classes and roles and voice chat. There is a reason why we won't put handicapped people in the same series with people who have all their limbs intact when talking about sports. It has nothing to do with skill, but everything to do with unfair game. 

 

 

1 hour ago, black_pyros said:

said over 50%. Please, re-read my post.

 

Sure. 51% is above average. Above average is still not skilled. 

 

[Chryptyk]

8 hours ago, black_pyros said:

Prime example of this is the OP, that is too shortsighted to see that if BW really based game decisions on what the majority wants, there would be no more premades in PvP - because there would be no PvP at all.

i don't get the logic of that.  How does not having premades lead to no pvp at all?  If everyone was solo, then the queue should always pop as long as there are 16ish or 8ish people in the queue.  There should be plenty enough people around to make that happen.

[Samcuu]

@black_pyroscookin this thread 👍👍😂😂

[black_pyros]

11 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

I have 65%+ winrate completely solo, that doesn't mean that I even consider playing against a premade. Sure I won vs. some premades because they are horrible but in arena, when I'm against something MVPs or Q-Sync with a 321 sorc healer I'm stucking and my time is wasted, its a terrible experience, there is nothing anybody could learn from this game, there is no point in playing it at all. Premades simply shouldn't be allowed to play arenas, while they still can my experience (even with a good winrate) will be miserable.

I believe premades in arenas are just fine, but matchmaker should really prioritize placing them against each other. Perhaps improve the queue system to allow players to see, how many premades are in queue, and make a single premade in queue to wait reaaaaally long before they actually put them against soloers. Like at least 20 minutes long.

18 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

Without premades my winrate would be 15% higher, and that is true for everybody - no matter the skill.

But do you absolutely desire to have that 15% higher win rate? If it's really that important to you, you have always the option to queue in premade. Otherwise, with 65% win rate while queueing solo you are already skilled player and have likely a positive experience in general. At least I know I never saw you to cry on forums blaming others for loses and I respect that.

[black_pyros]

37 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Sure. 51% is above average. Above average is still not skilled.

51% is certainly not a stellar win rate but I consider every solo player that manages to have more wins than loses especially against premades a skilled player. If having more wins than losses in a system designed to 50% of players to lose by default is not considered a skill, I don't know what is.

[black_pyros]

34 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

@black_pyroscookin this thread 👍👍😂😂

Well, it's certainly a Sisyphean task trying to open up eyes of players blaming match-making, skill, class balance and all the various issues on simple existence of premades. I can only endure this for few days max once per like 2 years. 😅

[Exly]

2 hours ago, black_pyros said:

I have absolutely nothing against solo players, I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.

PvP is never fair. Skilled players will always have advantage over less skilled players, no matter what. However, I prefer premades to face premades as well, just not in separate queue. Separate queue will kill premades. You know it, I know it, BW knows it, everyone does.

I said over 50%. Please, re-read my post.

As things stand, queue times are prioritized over placing premades in matches with other premades.  So, that reduces the chances that those matches will happen, and increases the chance that there will be more premade vs pug matches.

The assumption is that there are not enough premade teams to support a separate queue.  I think that could be true but, it true, that means that the queues are now currently supported by solo players.

So, why is the view of the majority being ignored in favor of allowing the few to have an advantage over them?

On the other hand.  If there are enough premade groups to support a queue, then why not place them in a separate queue?

Someone said earlier in this thread that you can't please everyone, and that's why there should be only one queue.  I say that when trying to decide who to please, maybe you should try to please as many people as possible.

[black_pyros]

52 minutes ago, Chryptyk said:

i don't get the logic of that.  How does not having premades lead to no pvp at all?  If everyone was solo, then the queue should always pop as long as there are 16ish or 8ish people in the queue.  There should be plenty enough people around to make that happen.

Nah, of course I am not saying that not having premades leads to no pvp at all, although it would certainly be bad for the general skill level of playerbase and would lead to worse quality of matches.

What I am saying is, that following the actual majority may lead to terminating the PvP, as such a majority likely wants the developers to spend resources on story and other single-instanced content, and not waste it on PvP.

[ZUHFB]

3 hours ago, black_pyros said:

I believe premades in arenas are just fine, but matchmaker should really prioritize placing them against each other.

any improvement is welcome honestly, i don't mind it in warzones at all - but arenas... nah.

2 hours ago, SoontirMorillo said:

hihihi... i love this bit... he is not against premades, he is just against good players

ok this is probably language barrier since we're both german I'll just explain it in other words, the against isn't referring to being against "good" players, it's being against premades of good players

2 hours ago, SoontirMorillo said:

people hate to play against better players, people hate losing. nothing has anything to do with premades per se. "losing is a terrible experience"... you don't say???!!

Who. I hate being matched against a group of players who are all hardstuck silver with maybe someone like Kyu in their premade carrying them. I would love a game against Kyu, I'd probably lose since he is better than me and I have no problem admitting that, but I can never get a fair game against him because he is "hiding" inside of his premade. I don't mind losing, I do mind losing just because there is a premade in the enemy team, if matchmaker would have made these exact teams I'd have no problem playing, but the fact that they are a premade pulls down my mental so hard I give up, realistically the best option anyway. They aren't playing better, they have no cool strategy, they BM the entire game (BM as in breaking first stuns, they could flag me all day long breaking first stun is more bad manner than actually flaming). 

And let's be real, with the game in the sad state it is, with every ranked player quitting, who could I (realistically in this time period) face? Kyu and who else? 

Ezmode? Quit
Cerasi? Quit
Rams? sold account and scammed back apparently, but quit
Bry? Quit i guess
Alim? sold account(s) and quit
Burning? Quit too
Aqrius? Quit PvP
Aezur? FFXIV
Mr. Will? Sold account
Valek? Quit
Quanny? Quit for Valo
Shalom? Quit for Valo
Asana? Quit and probably drunk
Figlak? Quit

(list only includes people who got multiple top3 in the last ~2/3 seasons, or high rep people, I left out 1500s like Fire heater etc. who also sold his account btw) 

if I hate to play against better players, please name them (EU only)

Edited February 22, 2023 by ZUHFB

[LD_Little_Dragon]

3 hours ago, black_pyros said:

I believe premades in arenas are just fine, but matchmaker should really prioritize placing them against each other. Perhaps improve the queue system to allow players to see, how many premades are in queue, and make a single premade in queue to wait reaaaaally long before they actually put them against soloers. Like at least 20 minutes long.

Am I missing something here?  How is that different then just ... having a separate solo and group queue? 

Although 4 man premades vs 4 pugs was never fun, and was part of the reason I wanted a separate arena and warzone queue years ago.  That and bioware's prioritizing pops over proper matchmaking means that matchmaking is never going to be great.

[ilubebi]

6 hours ago, black_pyros said:

I believe premades in arenas are just fine, but matchmaker should really prioritize placing them against each other. Perhaps improve the queue system to allow players to see, how many premades are in queue, and make a single premade in queue to wait reaaaaally long before they actually put them against soloers. Like at least 20 minutes long.

This is a lot of words to just say "premades should have their own queue."

[TrixxieTriss]

7 hours ago, black_pyros said:

Nah, of course I am not saying that not having premades leads to no pvp at all, although it would certainly be bad for the general skill level of playerbase and would lead to worse quality of matches.

What I am saying is, that following the actual majority may lead to terminating the PvP, as such a majority likely wants the developers to spend resources on story and other single-instanced content, and not waste it on PvP.

Explain then why group ranked was never that popular & solo ranked was? 
Your logic is flawed 😉

[Samcuu]

2 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Explain then why group ranked was never that popular & solo ranked was? 
Your logic is flawed 😉

Because it required a lot of planning. And most of the time you wanted the same 4 ppl playing to gain a team synergy/learn how to play together. If you didn't play with the same ppl you'd risk losing elo. Solo's you could just jump on and play not having to rely on 3 other ppl and navigate their schedules. 

 

[ZUHFB]

53 minutes ago, SoontirMorillo said:

but you fail to make the last logical step every single time in your own train of thought. the difference between a "premade of bad players" and a "premade of good players" is not the premade. it's the "good".

yes a good players is a good player and I'd like to play against each one of them individually, with random teams to add a factor or RNG that can swing it either way, so the winrate isn't 80/20 but 60/40 which is more fun for both sides. That is what I loved about solo ranked, team ranked never had this aspect. 

A premade of bad players is just as much of an issue, even though it's a winable match, it's still not freaking fun which kinda is why I am playing the game, imagine that.

Also I don't know what this "gotcha" stuff is all about, if you'd understand what I said it would make sense but you try to twist my words. 

1 hour ago, SoontirMorillo said:

"you hate to play against better players, you hate losing"

1. Who, name someone, anyone, please. 

2. I don't care if I lose or not, I lost around 1.8k ranked games in s14 alone, why would I care that I lose a warzone or just an arena. I play for fun not to win, I have all rewards I don't need them, I only play for fun and being against a premade is not fun and there isn't anything more that needs to be said

clearly it's an issue or we wouldn't talk about it, people feel strongly about this and this is why it has traction on the forums and thee devs should acknowledge and change something

[ZUHFB]

4 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

If you didn't play with the same ppl you'd risk losing elo

nobody in teamranked ever was at risk of losing anything, just queue dodge the only other team with hands on the server, get someone from SMW to leak their events and just snipe the mat farmers - 75% of teamranked games were like this, that is why the gamemode was bad, because it has no RNG element, you knew who you're up against - if you were to win you stay in queue and if you were to lose just drop out of queue, wait until they're gone

it was a terrible gamemode all around and now its even worse because those teams actually do get pops now, against people who never signed up to be against a full team. It's just not fun.