Please Run a Player Survey about Premades vs Solo

[TrixxieTriss]

BioWare, please run a survey across the whole player population to ask us if we want premade vs solo pvp as the default Or would we prefer premades & solo players to have seperate queues. Then we’ll all know where the community stands on this issue & you can develop accordingly.

The current situation where you have premades of 4-8 members playing against solo players is intolerable to many solo players. We’ve been asking you to address this & you won’t even respond to anyone regarding this topic. 

So instead of us players arguing the pitfalls or benefits between ourselves. Can you please do a public survey to ask everyone what they want & publish the results. So that you aren’t forcing another one of “your visions” on players that many don’t like and making us quit pvp & possibly the game. 

There have been many suggestions on how you can handle the premade vs solo situation. From splitting the queue to making premades only pop against other premades. But I think the only one I trust to work would be splitting the queue. Why? Because you’ve been saying for several years the current queue should “only” put premades vs premades & that just doesn’t happen consistently because you prioritise pop speed over matching.

My suggestion that’s been supported by many other players is you create 2 queues each for objective pvp & arena pvp.

Objective PVP setup :

1. Solo queue, no premades allowed

2. Premade queue, which requires people to queue as 2, 4, 6 or 8 man. No odd numbers as to make team building easier. Matchmaking should always try & put 8v8 together before putting smaller mixed premades against 8 man teams. 

Arena PVP setup :

1. Solo queue, no premades allowed 

2. Premade queue, which requires people to queue as 2 or 4 man. Matchmaking should always try & put 4v4 or 2x2v2x2, before putting 4v2x2 together.

Doing it this way allows solo players a more competitive & fair environment, while also providing an outlet for people to group with friends or have competitive team pvp. 
 

No one loses out from this type of system except the people who form premade teams so they specifically have an advantage over solo players. 

It also has a side benefit of taking the pressure off the matchmaking system which really doesn’t seem to work properly with solo & premade players in the same queue together. This would allow the matchmaking algorithms to be differently tweaked for each queue & should result in better matched games that are more fun. 

So I’m imploring @JackieKo @EricMusco & @Shabir_Dhillonto please run a survey asking ALL players what they want. Otherwise you’re going to lose many of us & I don’t think your pvp seasons rewards will be enough to refill or keep enough players if your aim is to rebuild the pvp community in a less toxic environment.

Edited February 16, 2023 by TrixxieTriss
Spelling

[Yusta]

i realy hope they do something, this evening i got put against the same premade (with 3 jug) FOUR time over 8 warzones, in the end my thoughts was that a hour and half like that it's just throw away without providing much fun.

since this is basicaly a reccurence now, pvp as solo player it's becoming a no option.

a clear statment if they want to push in the diretion of group pvp it's needed, dev can go any direction they want but i want to know to decide if to stick o just leave.

[VegaMist]

I personally would prefer a size-limit on premades (4-max in warzones as it was prior to 7.2, and possibly 2-max in arenas) instead of separate queues since a) we don't have the population to support separate queues, b) at half-group-max, premades are manageable (4-person one may force you to play smarter which benefits you in the long run), and c) a 2-person premade is probably the most common one (a person playing with a friend which btw creates no issues for solo players) and pitching them exclusively against other premades (especially larger ones which will for sure happen under your proposed scenario) would be a major turn-off and may send them looking for another more friendly to "playing with a friend" game.

Edited February 16, 2023 by VegaMist

[_Miriya_]

This would be nice to adress.

A detail tho,  I'd say that the small 2 man groups should be allowed into 8 as "solo" queue.  

[TrixxieTriss]

5 hours ago, Whiteprince said:

They did try separate q. Didnt work.

That is NOT true. Please stop spreading false information. I already corrected you on this in another thread on this specific topic. BioWare did not try something like this before. 

They originally had 8v8 ranked where players needed to form 8 man groups. This was popular across many servers. The problem was there were too many servers & BioWare dragged out the preseason for so long that many left. But many were ready to come back when the season started. BioWare then decided to switch rank format to Arena & never gave 8 man ranked a season to see if it worked.

Having a seperate premade queue as I’ve suggested is not the same had having to form a group of 8 players to queue up.

At the same time, BioWare have never tried to have a solo queue for objective pvp. This has never been tried. 

Bioware did try a solo and 4v4 queue for ranked. The solo queue was the most popular, the 4v4 queue was not as popular after the first couple of seasons. But BioWare never tried having 2+2v2+2 in the group queue. Plus the ranked community shrank a lot over the years. 

So to sum up, in case people think I’m just attack you & not showing your posting incorrect information, BioWare have not tried to do seperate queues of mixed Premades or a Solo queue for objective pvp. And the most successful ranked format was solo pvp queue because it was the most fair & competitive format. 


 

Edited February 17, 2023 by TrixxieTriss
Add more context & formating

[Eastiano]

If you get a premade as solo q, just farm them, normally they are gash anyway, I tend to get my best numbers when farming them and win because they mostly won’t go for objectives.

In short, just play, don’t cry and make sure to type “ez” in say when you win 😊

[VegaMist]

10 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

That is blatantly NOT true. Stop spreading false information.

That is blatantly your personal opinion - calling something "false information" doesn't make it false. I find it disconcerting that you make a post and then attack people who respond. That makes it harder to take you seriously.

[Eastiano]

Btw, are there still pvp records here?

[TrixxieTriss]

15 minutes ago, Eastiano said:

Btw, are there still pvp records here?

Yes, you just have to search for them. 

[TrixxieTriss]

22 minutes ago, Eastiano said:

If you get a premade as solo q, just farm them, normally they are gash anyway, I tend to get my best numbers when farming them and win because they mostly won’t go for objectives.

In short, just play, don’t cry and make sure to type “ez” in say when you win 😊

And when they are ranked players in an 8 man premade against solo players 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Nee-Elder]

9 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Yes, you just have to search for them. 

hmm,  But where exactly ?   cuz the official link seems to be *broken* --> https://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, _Miriya_ said:

This would be nice to adress.

A detail tho,  I'd say that the small 2 man groups should be allowed into 8 as "solo" queue.  

While I understand your point, having them included makes it harder for the Matchmaking algorithm to work properly. Plus you need to draw the line somewhere. It’s easier to just make a clean split & have a solo queue & a mixed premade queue. 

Of course, that’s just my opinion & yours is just as valid. It’s why I’m asking BioWare to do a survey & ask these sorts of questions of the community. Then they can see what the players actually want or think is fair. And that includes if players want 8, 6, 4 or even 2 squads against solo players. Let them collect the player feed back & then decide.

Then BioWare can develop pvp for the players wants & needs instead of forcing their vision on players. Because forcing their vision always works out so great 🤷🏻‍♀️

Edited February 17, 2023 by TrixxieTriss
Formating

[TrixxieTriss]

6 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

hmm,  But where exactly ?   cuz the official link seems to be *broken* --> https://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought they wanted to search forum records, not leaderboards 🤷🏻‍♀️

[AwesomeTacoCat]

54 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

That is blatantly your personal opinion - calling something "false information" doesn't make it false. I find it disconcerting that you make a post and then attack people who respond. That makes it harder to take you seriously.

Uhh it is objectively false that SWTOR has ever had a pvp que system such as the one Trixxie is suggesting. It is not an opinion. 

[Beyrahl]

The worst part is definitely the fact in a larger group I end up facing far more pugs than I do solo queued.
I more than often run into one or even two groups on one team while solo queued way more often.
Though, when only 4 matchmaking seems to work a lot better about pitting groups against each other, even if the other group is larger.
A limit back to 4 would be more than welcome.


If the solo queues for these modes were to exist I only worry about healers and their want to play. They're already incredibly rare and even rare in actual solo queue matches where no one is grouped. This will likely become way worse than what it is currently and probably will not change for many reasons.
Along with that, nothing prevents someone experienced from queuing into this mode, and I mean most will greatly enjoy it. 
However, some players will need to find new excuses which will probably result in even more teammate harassment. Which is already at an incredible high right now. 

Either way, I would enjoy it but also I think the 4-man max is a must-change. 
 

[VegaMist]

2 hours ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

Uhh it is objectively false that SWTOR has ever had a pvp que system such as the one Trixxie is suggesting. It is not an opinion. 

We had separate queues which is what Trixxie was responding to (perhaps, read the full thread to see what was said and in response to what). The system she proposes would result in yet another exodus of players which I hope is not the aim here.

[TrixxieTriss]

6 hours ago, VegaMist said:

The system she proposes would result in yet another exodus of players which I hope is not the aim here.

What is your reasoning behind this statement. If you’re going to disparage my idea, at least support your own hypothesis instead just making blind statements. 

[DeannaVoyager]

7 hours ago, VegaMist said:

We had separate queues which is what Trixxie was responding to (perhaps, read the full thread to see what was said and in response to what). The system she proposes would result in yet another exodus of players which I hope is not the aim here.

 

More likely it will attract more people to play pvp when it's a fair playground. 

Besides, if by mass exodus you mean all the people who need advantage over others would leave, is it really a loss? 

[AwesomeTacoCat]

10 hours ago, VegaMist said:

We had separate queues which is what Trixxie was responding to (perhaps, read the full thread to see what was said and in response to what). The system she proposes would result in yet another exodus of players which I hope is not the aim here.

If there are massive numbers of people who want to play in groups like you all say there are then there should be no problem populating a dedicated que of premades. 
 

Pick a side. Are there tons of players who want to just play in groups? If so, separate ques for solos vs premades will be totally fine and no one will leave. Or are there are a small minority of people wanting to play in groups? Then the premade que won’t populate but if those players leave it’s not a big deal because there aren’t many of them (or they can just play solo que). 
 

We all know that the only reason people want to play in groups is to have an unfair advantage over solo players. Let’s stop pretending it’s not. 

[VegaMist]

7 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

What is your reasoning behind this statement. If you’re going to disparage my idea, at least support your own hypothesis instead just making blind statements. 

Because you took into account only one type of player - solo, which is your preferred way of playing. When designing a system, you need to take into account every type of player, including the ones you see as a problem, and offer a satisfactory experience to every different type. "Satisfactory experience" doesn't mean give everyone exactly what they want since the goals will be often conflicting between the types - it means making the experience enjoyable enough for as many different play-styles as possible so they continue engaging (in this case, PVP-ing). In order to do that, you need to understand what those different groups want from the game - ideally, by emerging yourself in each different type of play-style (which can be really hard for a single individual to do), or alternatively by talking to players who engaged in those various play-styles for a prolonged period of time and asking them questions (never arguing back regardless of your personal feelings regarding their chosen style - just listening and taking note). In addition, you need to take into account how many total players we have regularly engaging - in our case, PVP-ers are not a large base, so we may not have the numbers to support all different types of ques (huge reason behind ranked being removed) - and the limited resources Bioware/EA has to work on any new system.

 

6 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

 

More likely it will attract more people to play pvp when it's a fair playground. 

Besides, if by mass exodus you mean all the people who need advantage over others would leave, is it really a loss? 

There is no such thing as "fair" - we all come with different skill sets, and players who engaged for a prolonged time, spent time on gearing themselves, worked on ironing their skills, learned every map and the rules of every game will always have an advantage over someone who only engaged a few times. There is a limit though. For example, to stand against an organized, max-geared, well-trained, voice-coordinated 8-person group would required a similarly sized team (probably at least 6 + 2, or 4 + 4), also skilled, and at least well-coordinated (minus voice). But to completely disregard players with that kind of investment into the game - "if by mass exodus you mean all the people who need advantage over others would leave, is it really a loss?" - would be a mistake to say the least, and it absolutely would be a loss (including loss of money for Bioware/EA since those people usually have active subscriptions). If we had a ton of players constantly pvp-ing - sure you could separate such teams into separate ques. But we don't, so when proposing any system changes, we need to remember that.

 

3 hours ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

If there are massive numbers of people who want to play in groups like you all say there are then there should be no problem populating a dedicated que of premades. 

There are no "massive numbers" - there is a percentage. As I stated above, in it's current state SWTOR doesn't have the numbers to support multiple separate ques hence huge (possibly main) reason ranked was removed.

 

3 hours ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

Pick a side. Are there tons of players who want to just play in groups? If so, separate ques for solos vs premades will be totally fine and no one will leave. Or are there are a small minority of people wanting to play in groups? Then the premade que won’t populate but if those players leave it’s not a big deal because there aren’t many of them (or they can just play solo que). 

You can't design a system by "picking a side" - this right here is the biggest flaw of this entire thread.

 

3 hours ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

We all know that the only reason people want to play in groups is to have an unfair advantage over solo players. Let’s stop pretending it’s not. 

Playing in groups is enjoyable by itself regardless of what part of the game you engage with - PVP, PVE, just randomly running around exploring open-world areas, etc. - most of these activities don't even interact with solo players. So, to think what solo players are the main focus of grouping up is delusional to say the least. Having an advantage over solo players is a side-effect of grouping up - not the goal.

Edited February 17, 2023 by VegaMist

[Nee-Elder]

3 hours ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

We all know that the only reason people want to play in groups is to have an unfair advantage over solo players.

How exactly is grouping with friends/guildmates in a MMO now considered to be "unfair" ?

Annoying & unfun maybe to be on the losing side, sure,  but i'd hardly call it "unfair"  since technically premades aren't doing anything exploitive nor special that anyone else can't also do too. ( i personally haven't been able to commit to premades cuz of my random play schedule, but if i could i totally would since i enjoy winning more than getting steamrickrolled   )

*FYI:  i've solo-queue'd 99% of my matches in 7.2 era ... and...  i agree with the general sentiment that something should be done to balance out the matchmaking better, to help reduce the sheer lopsided'ness of premades vs. solos ---- To which BioWare also agrees, potentially, since they did at least tweak the algorithm slightly? --> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/927607-pvp-medals-and-matchmaking-feedback-thread/ 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: upcoming 7.2.1 update tweaks just might help a bit ( hopefully )

[Ramalina]

So the easiest solution to implement is to stop caring about individual PvP match outcomes and about overall win rate.   I have done this.  It works great.

 

In GSF there was a compromise approach that capped group size at 4.

 

In theory this should cap team imbalance for groups at +4 if there are an odd number of groups of 4 in the queue, and balance things nicely if there are an even number.

Or at least it would if the initial matchmaker selection weren't terrible at balancing, and the second sanity check step after the pool of players is selected weren't non-existent.

In practice, with bad initial matchmaking, and no step for going back and reviewing team balance after teams have been selected from the queue, it would routinely generate 4+ 4 vs all solo teams.  Yay, Bioware.   There was at least a chance that it might be 4+ solos vs 4+ solos, though.   Small, but it was slightly better than nothing.

[VegaMist]

26 minutes ago, Ramalina said:

So the easiest solution to implement is to stop caring about individual PvP match outcomes and about overall win rate.   I have done this.  It works great.

 

In GSF there was a compromise approach that capped group size at 4.

 

In theory this should cap team imbalance for groups at +4 if there are an odd number of groups of 4 in the queue, and balance things nicely if there are an even number.

Or at least it would if the initial matchmaker selection weren't terrible at balancing, and the second sanity check step after the pool of players is selected weren't non-existent.

In practice, with bad initial matchmaking, and no step for going back and reviewing team balance after teams have been selected from the queue, it would routinely generate 4+ 4 vs all solo teams.  Yay, Bioware.   There was at least a chance that it might be 4+ solos vs 4+ solos, though.   Small, but it was slightly better than nothing.

Yes, that does seem like an easiest solution. They might be reluctant to do it since that's what we had before ranked was removed, so going back right away would be admitting they made a mistake. If they do go back and simultaneously update the matchmaking to balance 4-person teams on two sides (so we don't get 4 + 4 on one side and 2+2+1+1+1+1/or 3+1+1+1+1+1 on the other), it would go a long way to help the current situation.

Edited February 17, 2023 by VegaMist

[darksidenerd]

38 minutes ago, Ramalina said:

So the easiest solution to implement is to stop caring about individual PvP match outcomes and about overall win rate.   I have done this.  It works great.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Eastiano said:

If you get a premade as solo q, just farm them, normally they are gash anyway, I tend to get my best numbers when farming them and win because they mostly won’t go for objectives.

In short, just play, don’t cry and make sure to type “ez” in say when you win 😊

Exactly. I've said it in previous posts.  I think the competitive nature of folks not having a group to que with makes 'em all salty when they get into a pug group who doesn't communicate /low gear. mindset is everything. If you keep dwelling on this this whole "premade ruining my life notion" notion, then you'll have a horrible time in pvp. You might un-subscribe or even stop playing all together, which is sad. End of day it's a personal problem. I, myself, CHOOSE not to let it bother me. Some folks in here CHOOSE to let it bother them and flood forums about how much it's ruined their life. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Devs stay silent and don't change it. 

[TrixxieTriss]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:40 AM, VegaMist said:

Because you took into account only one type of player - solo, which is your preferred way of playing. When designing a system, you need to take into account every type of player, including the ones you see as a problem, and offer a satisfactory experience to every different type. "Satisfactory experience" doesn't mean give everyone exactly what they want since the goals will be often conflicting between the types - it means making the experience enjoyable enough for as many different play-styles as possible so they continue engaging (in this case, PVP-ing). In order to do that, you need to understand what those different groups want from the game - ideally, by emerging yourself in each different type of play-style (which can be really hard for a single individual to do), or alternatively by talking to players who engaged in those various play-styles for a prolonged period of time and asking them questions (never arguing back regardless of your personal feelings regarding their chosen style - just listening and taking note). In addition, you need to take into account how many total players we have regularly engaging - in our case, PVP-ers are not a large base, so we may not have the numbers to support all different types of ques (huge reason behind ranked being removed) - and the limited resources Bioware/EA has to work on any new system.

 

There is no such thing as "fair" - we all come with different skill sets, and players who engaged for a prolonged time, spent time on gearing themselves, worked on ironing their skills, learned every map and the rules of every game will always have an advantage over someone who only engaged a few times. There is a limit though. For example, to stand against an organized, max-geared, well-trained, voice-coordinated 8-person group would required a similarly sized team (probably at least 6 + 2, or 4 + 4), also skilled, and at least well-coordinated (minus voice). But to completely disregard players with that kind of investment into the game - "if by mass exodus you mean all the people who need advantage over others would leave, is it really a loss?" - would be a mistake to say the least, and it absolutely would be a loss (including loss of money for Bioware/EA since those people usually have active subscriptions). If we had a ton of players constantly pvp-ing - sure you could separate such teams into separate ques. But we don't, so when proposing any system changes, we need to remember that.

 

There are no "massive numbers" - there is a percentage. As I stated above, in it's current state SWTOR doesn't have the numbers to support multiple separate ques hence huge (possibly main) reason ranked was removed.

 

You can't design a system by "picking a side" - this right here is the biggest flaw of this entire thread.

 

Playing in groups is enjoyable by itself regardless of what part of the game you engage with - PVP, PVE, just randomly running around exploring open-world areas, etc. - most of these activities don't even interact with solo players. So, to think what solo players are the main focus of grouping up is delusional to say the least. Having an advantage over solo players is a side-effect of grouping up - not the goal.

I did not just look at this from a solo player’s perspective. But please tell me again how I did 🤷🏻‍♀️.

 I’ve been playing this game for 11 years & have enjoyed all different parts of pvp in those years, including playing in 8 man ranked premades & training new people to pvp in groups.

 But thats not what the core problem is with your post. It’s that you’ve not once supported your hypothesis logically. 

I spent a lot of time consulting with premade players & solo players to come up with my idea. I listened to both sides & I looked for the best solution so that it would not negatively affect anyone. But would encourage more competitive & less toxic game play that would help build up pvp player numbers. Not drive players from the game like the current system is.

You don’t have to agree with my system or me. But if you’re going to criticise it, at least do it logically and actually point out the pitfalls instead of saying “I picked a side”. Did you never learn to reason or debate at school? Show an example how my system would drive players from the game. 

Please show us how my system is bad for premades or degraded them in anyway? Explain how my system will be less beneficial to premades or to yourself?

Legitimate premades who group up for competitive pvp or those who group to be with friends will not be impacted by my suggestions.

The only people that will be affected are those who “only premade” to have an advantage over solo players. If youre arguing that it’s your right to have that unfair advantage, then say so, don’t be shy about it. Tell us your point of view. I’m sure we’d love to hear about it.

Edited February 20, 2023 by TrixxieTriss