Planned Balance Changes for 7.1.1

[AdjeYo]

That's just your personal experience. People bring all classes to raids all the time. StarParse stats show 2 sages for each gunslinger, true, but that's hardly a monopoly. Btw, I frequently bring madness for progression and I can tell you it matches or beats lightning quite often while needing almost no healing. So I think I'm in the right mind

 

Fluff dps is irrelevant, have you checked actual boss dps? Lightning currently is just superior to Madness.

 

Yes, I remember those targets for dps balancing... You missed the point though. Those targets were for something like the training dummy, with the idea that across actual fights the dps of different specs, or damage groupings as they called them, should perform equally well. If you want spec segregation of dps in non-dummy fights, then we disagree on a fundamental level. I think in true balance each spec should shine on some bosses or at least be okay on all. So on average across all bosses they should all be about equal.

 

Yes some spec shine in some fights, some in others, but not by raw dps numbers. Burst specs have the advantage of doing more damage in short burst phases, where it actually matters. But if they also start getting more overall dps than sustained specs, we have a problem. Because there's no more point in bringing a spec with bad burst and less sustained.

 

And no, Madness' cleave doesn't make up for it. If you need some rotational AoE in your group, you could get a class with actually powerful cleave like vengeance, pyro or even engineering and let the rest play specs that actually help you beat enrages and burns.

[ZUHFB]

Fluff dps is irrelevant, have you checked actual boss dps? Lightning currently is just superior to Madness.

 

 

Yes some spec shine in some fights, some in others, but not by raw dps numbers. Burst specs have the advantage of doing more damage in short burst phases, where it actually matters. But if they also start getting more overall dps than sustained specs, we have a problem. Because there's no more point in bringing a spec with bad burst and less sustained.

 

And no, Madness' cleave doesn't make up for it. If you need some rotational AoE in your group, you could get a class with actually powerful cleave like vengeance, pyro or even engineering and let the rest play specs that actually help you beat enrages and burns.

 

Facts, and that is not even mentioning madness straight up stealing boss damage from the juggernaut when speading dots, if madness spreads DoTs that means less slams for the jug => less boss dps for the jug and, maybe, less shatter explosions that hit the boss.

 

The lightning change is not something bad, just wait for it to hit live and see how it goes. Stop theorycrafting the DPS loss or something, like nobody cares - if you would need DPS you wouldn't bring a sorc either way.

[Ergecrs]

Viru and Madness have pitiful rotational AoE, that doesn't even nearly make up for losing out on the single target dps and superior burst that Lightning offers. There's a reason there's more Lightning parses on parsley even for R4 final boss (which has quite a lot of AoE) than from Madness and Virulence combined.

 

Sure these classes can set up for AoE, but they'll be tanking their already worse than Lightning single target dps in the process. Currently on R4hm Lightning is the best performing ranged spec on every single boss.

 

And yet the top parses for R4 last boss are all madness ??? That is both SM and VM

[AdjeYo]

And yet the top parses for R4 last boss are all madness ??? That is both SM and VM

 

The top parses on R4 are all Vengeance. Check out the operations statistics on parsley. The median Vengeance dps is higher than the highest dps from any other spec.

 

Sure Madness will do a little more dps than Lightning. But as explained this is fluff dps at best, reducing group dps on boss (by shorting your Vengeance juggs single target dps) at worst. There's a reason more people play Lightning on that boss than Madness (again you can see it in parsely's operation statistics page). Lightning is a better pick than Madness, even there.

[Ergecrs]

The top parses on R4 are all Vengeance. Check out the operations statistics on parsley. The median Vengeance dps is higher than the highest dps from any other spec.

 

Sure Madness will do a little more dps than Lightning. But as explained this is fluff dps at best, reducing group dps on boss (by shorting your Vengeance juggs single target dps) at worst. There's a reason more people play Lightning on that boss than Madness (again you can see it in parsely's operation statistics page). Lightning is a better pick than Madness, even there.

 

It is by far not the best of the specs to use. Just because people play a spec doesnt mean its the best. I wasn't stating its the best damage overall i meant between the sage specs. A lot of the fights appear to leaning towards balance. Very few get out parsed by lightning sorcs. Maybe just not a lot of good ones play. Maybe i dont see a lot of good lightning sorcs. Not sure, But in all the groups I run with most sages either play balance, or they are mid pack dps.

[Monterone]

Chris, thanks for staying on top of this and for your replies. I came back to SWTOR and re-subbed after having played another mmo for a while, and I have to say it is refreshing to finally see more open communication from the devs here. Keep it up please.

 

I am going to bring up a QoL issue with Madness that could have, or should have been fixed ages ago. Virulence has always had a talent that says your DoTs don't affect any sleeping targets. Madness originally had Whirlwind in its tree and still has access to Whirlwind, but WW gets broken by sorc's own dots.

 

Would it be difficult to fix this issue finally and add that talent to madness tree as well? If madness does take the WW ability in the tree, can you make the tree not tick its dots on targets that are mezzed by you?

 

Much obliged, thanks!

 

 

p.s. Oh and thanks for modifying the new tactical. Demolish spread makes this interesting again. I would not have even bought the older design one.

[AdjeYo]

It is by far not the best of the specs to use. Just because people play a spec doesnt mean its the best. I wasn't stating its the best damage overall i meant between the sage specs. A lot of the fights appear to leaning towards balance. Very few get out parsed by lightning sorcs. Maybe just not a lot of good ones play. Maybe i dont see a lot of good lightning sorcs. Not sure, But in all the groups I run with most sages either play balance, or they are mid pack dps.

 

It really is. On the first three bosses of R4, there is no contest. Lightning does more overall dps, more boss dps and more burst. Only on the last boss does Madness slightly outparse Lightning, but that's just meaningless fluff. Let me dive into to fully explain:

 

Comparing the top two parses, Madness does about 2k dps more. But let's dig a little deeper into those parses. Madness does a whopping 5k dps less on the boss than Lightning. Is that worth it? Hell no. You bring Vengeance, Pyro or Engineering to do cleave (much better than Madness can) and something like Lightning to provide superior single target damage. Bringing Madness to any fight in R4 hm is suboptimal. Meanwhile Lightning is a solid pick for every single boss on R4 hm, assuming you got one or two good cleaving dps for last boss.

 

In R4 hm Lightning is just straight up better than Madness. Madness fluffing up it's numbers (slightly) on last boss doesn't change that.

[Battouuusi]

Please buff Arsenal and Gunnery Specs. It has been the bottom half (at least) since 3.0. It has gone down hill ever since the proc for unload/blazing bolts that gave a 25% dmg boost was taken away a while ago. It is near the very bottom of the dps charts now. No NIM and most HM groups won't allow a arsenal or gunnery spec into their team or raid. A great buff would be for superchage gas to last for eight seconds and for all abilities to crit during supercharged cell. Yeah the pvpers are going to complain that it is op but these specs have been near the bottom for far to long and the last "buff" did almost nothing to improve the spec. Been waiting for years so I don't expect anything but decided to post because why not. Edited September 11, 2022 by Battouuusi

[ZUHFB]

A great buff would be for superchage gas to last for eight seconds and for all abilities to crit during supercharged cell.

 

Please don't. Oh lord this would be so broken.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

A great buff would be for superchage gas to last for eight seconds and for all abilities to crit during supercharged cell.

 

1 - Yeah, that would be a great buff. No doubt about it.

 

2 - Are you out of your friggen mind?

Edited September 11, 2022 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[sithBracer]

No NIM and most HM groups won't allow a arsenal or gunnery spec into their team or raid.

 

All these years and you still don't know how to play another spec? My class was at the bottom for raids since the beginning of the game in anything but tank (and even then it was at the bottom at times), so I just learned to play different classes. I'm sure playing a different spec won't be so hard. Besides arsenal is one of the most braindead boring specs in the game. Maybe the problem is you?

Edited September 11, 2022 by sithBracer

[Deaconik]

Also plenty groups won't mind Arsenal if the player is good. While it's not the top notch spec, on many bosses it is viable. Yes, even Nim, because the hp boss nerf happened.

[WendaWenda]

Don't nerf PvE concealment damage.

The proposed nerfs to concealment will hurt it a lot in PvE and won't affect PvP.

In PvE Conc. is one of the least, if not the least played DPS. If anything it needs buffs not nerfs.

The only thing the class has is above average single target damage, which doesn't make it a desireable class for operations.

 

It needs buffs to its damage, so it can shine in at least something or it needs some utility for group. What it definitely doesn't need is nerfs to its PvE damage.

[CatrinTheWonk]

The reply to all of this is simply: "OK".

 

You're 10 years in, and you're still balancing classes. What crack are you smoking?

 

Fix your skill trees first. Fix the tacticals. Fix the design choices. Fix trying to make all things equal and all DPS equal and so on. Class X is better for raid Y? Yes, cool: make a raid Z where class Y is better. Don't attempt to balance your entire content for 10 years to flatten your psychotic Excel curve.

 

If you design a system where there is a single "meta" for a class... then nerf that meta, you're gonna have a bad time / lose subscribers. UO from 2002 says hello. Especially if you don't like, you know, do that creative thing the 6 figure salary suggests and make four new metas.

 

That's the bit you're missing.

 

Not going to lie, SWOTOR is a boring game atm - it doesn't know when to let players "off the reigns" and enjoy spanking the crap PvE and it, (shockingly) after 10 years doesn't even have functioning three tier skill forks for classes.*

 

 

That's like... first year training diapers stuff.

 

p..s

 

You totes frakked up 330 stuff, but hey. Under 2 months, you can max out 8 chars in 331. Good design choice

 

~

 

Full disclosure: I don't think the "dev" team actually have license to change the base game in any meaningful way btw - pretty sure this is a case of "Whale MMO preservation" territory. They simply don't have the exec pull to change the game anymore.

 

@Chris - prove me wrong, but it's true.

 

 

 

*This reminds me of the difference between Torchlight 2 and Torchlight 3 btw. Only... you've had 10 years to know this stuff.

Edited September 12, 2022 by CatrinTheWonk

[Exly]

All these years and you still don't know how to play another spec? My class was at the bottom for raids since the beginning of the game in anything but tank (and even then it was at the bottom at times), so I just learned to play different classes. I'm sure playing a different spec won't be so hard. Besides arsenal is one of the most braindead boring specs in the game. Maybe the problem is you?

 

This is a game. People play it for fun. If they want to play merc, then why shouldn't they. The only reason is because the devs hate the spec so much that they make it suck so people will avoid it.

 

Learning new specs, and playing them is fun, but still, always having to avoid certain specs because the devs refuse to make them viable is worth complaining about.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Exly

[DeannaVoyager]

This is a game. People play it for fun. If they want to play merc, then why shouldn't they. The only reason is because the devs hate the spec so much that they make it suck so people will avoid it.

 

Learning new specs, and playing them is fun, but still, always having to avoid certain specs because the devs refuse to make them viable is worth complaining about.

 

This^^. Everyone should be able to participate end game activities with whatever class they like to play. All specs should be good enough for all content and currently they are not. Also there is not much incentive to learn new classes anymore, when they get changed every patch (tacticals, rotation, set bonuses etc). I recently learned to play lightning because I was getting bored of virulence, and because it lost some fun stuff with 7.0 AND got nerfed in 7.1. Before that my favorite ranged was arsenal merc, but I pretty much had to stop playing it because all the previous nerfs. Now lighting gets nerfed, so I've practically wasted my time practising it. What spec should I learn next to be able to play the game? Oh wait, I know this one: PT and marauder. I've played both, don't like them and don't want to waste my time practising them.

 

This used to be a great game with all the class diversity, but it's turning into 1-2 meta class game, and that makes it boring. I've barely logged in for raiding this past couple of weeks. If I have to learn new specs to play, I might as well do it in another game completely. Can't wait til my current raid group also disbands so I will finally be free of this game.

[ZUHFB]

This is a game. People play it for fun. If they want to play merc, then why shouldn't they. The only reason is because the devs hate the spec so much that they make it suck so people will avoid it.

 

Learning new specs, and playing them is fun, but still, always having to avoid certain specs because the devs refuse to make them viable is worth complaining about.

 

Either you have easy content, or you have some class not used in progress because they aren't good.

 

There is no in between. I would rather have difficult content, in content that is supposed to be difficult, and just not play mercs in progression. I would not feel rewarded after clearing content that is only hard because someone plays merc, I would just think that person is stupid. I would feel rewarded after clearing hard content in a good setup, content hard enough that a setup actually matters!

 

They should buff SM ops to be harder. They are too easy.

[Exocor]

This^^. Everyone should be able to participate end game activities with whatever class they like to play. All specs should be good enough for all content and currently they are not.

 

We have to admit the truth here: Balancing of Operations and classes has been all over the place for years.

 

Even within 7.x, we saw (initially) an operations buff, with 330 max gear. Then we got 340 max gear, an all (except new) Operations got a nerf in Damage they do and HP they have.

 

I'm a Tank Main, so DPSing is usually not a strong feat of mine, but that allows me to sit back and see our DPS figure out the mess that was created. But on occasion, I played DPS when tanking became too boring. I obviously played IO Merc in late 3.x and 4.x, before it got nerfed. I changed to AP Powertech and could pretty much always fall back on that in case my damage wasn't sufficient. A while ago i stopped playing and when I came back a few weeks ago, I wanted to pull my Merc out of the box. After the first few raids, I looked at the numbers and decided to take out the PT again. AP is doing alright. Not great, not terrible - still good enough to Out-DPS people with much better Gear in the Revan Core-Challenge. But it's about to get nerfed. Pyro is about to get nerfed as well. As soon as I was looking into Hatred, someone told me that there's a nerf incoming as well (understably - you just have to smash the keyboard and you're doing more damage than some other specs with perfect rotations). Guess I'm taking out the Marauder again. Annihilation is not that hard to play.

However, over the years I've always loosely played other classes - Marauder, Sniper, Sin. Not well, but I know what buttons to press to do damage. Especially during the long wait between ToS/Ravagers and Gods there was enough time to level many characters, try them out in Raids and kill the "hardest" content. Playing only one class, only one character for all those years would've been really boring. Those players that were one-trick-wonders left when the nerf-hammer hit their classes.

 

So if you want to play this game, you have to adapt, with one exception. You can play Marauder. I can't remember a time when Maros were at the bottom of the DPS-chain. Great Raid utility, strongest Raid-buff and sufficient damage for everything. Sometimes a bit awkward to play (thinking Brontes-burn here), but in most cases they're doing fine.

And on the few bosses, where you need more range DPS (some Denova NiM 1st boss strategies for example), you can always play an easy range DPS-class. Virulence might not be the greatest spec right now, but it's doing the job.

 

To get back to the original quote:

 

No, it is not intended that you can kill every boss with every possible combination of classes and specs. You really don't wanna play an add-heavy boss encounter with 4 Concealment-Saboteurs. And playing Torque with 4 Engineering Snipers could also lead to some untimely Tank-deaths. Some classes just bring certain utility (Sin-Tanks taking spheres at Brontes' in the final phase for example), some bosses require a certain raid-coordination, some bosses have mechanics where adds need to die fast or have low HP and are far away. Some boss encounters require the use of kicks (Styrak, Revan...).

 

And a final thought on class balancing: There are classes that have a steep learning curve in order to do decent DPS, and those that have a very flat learning curve. Wouldn't it be fair and rewarding, that those classes that are hard to play and hard to learn do the most DPS? AP PT or Arsenal Merc are really easy to play. On an immobile target, where you can stand still the entire time, they should, in my opinion do less damage than, let's say, Annihilation. Annihilation will run into DPS-losses if it has to target switch, while AP and Arsenal can switch without problems. So the goal of the balance-team should be to balance this out correctly. Really good Annihilation players will now find ways to reduce DPS-losses when target switching. But that requires skill. Putting more work into your class should always be rewarding.

So, difficult classes should go to the top if played perfectly. 12345 classes should hit a limit below that. I agree with the quoted statement insofar, that every class should, with progress Gear (meaning: What you can have, at maximum, when you first enter a certain Operation) and a certain level of expertise in front of the computer screen, do sufficient single target DPS in order to beat the hard enrage (or any other damage-check) of any given boss fight. We shouldn't mix situational utility (raid buffs, DCD's...) into a discussion about damage-balancing in my opinion.

 

If you want to be a good DPS, you have to go with the times, Stagnation leads to regression. Those that only play one class, don't play for long.

[Exly]

Either you have easy content, or you have some class not used in progress because they aren't good.

 

There is no in between. I would rather have difficult content, in content that is supposed to be difficult, and just not play mercs in progression. I would not feel rewarded after clearing content that is only hard because someone plays merc, I would just think that person is stupid. I would feel rewarded after clearing hard content in a good setup, content hard enough that a setup actually matters!

 

They should buff SM ops to be harder. They are too easy.

 

So, you think that mercs are so bad that you actually call people who play them in harder content stupid.

 

No spec should be so bad that people like you call the people who play them stupid.

 

Devs, it's up to you. Fix the underperforming specs, or keep doing things the way you are, and continue to divide and anger people.

[DeannaVoyager]

We have to admit the truth here: Balancing of Operations and classes has been all over the place for years.

 

Even within 7.x, we saw (initially) an operations buff, with 330 max gear. Then we got 340 max gear, an all (except new) Operations got a nerf in Damage they do and HP they have.

 

<snip>

 

So if you want to play this game, you have to adapt, with one exception. You can play Marauder. I can't remember a time when Maros were at the bottom of the DPS-chain. Great Raid utility, strongest Raid-buff and sufficient damage for everything. Sometimes a bit awkward to play (thinking Brontes-burn here), but in most cases they're doing fine.

And on the few bosses, where you need more range DPS (some Denova NiM 1st boss strategies for example), you can always play an easy range DPS-class. Virulence might not be the greatest spec right now, but it's doing the job.

 

That's my problem right there: mara being OP patch after patch. Why is marauder so special that it's untouchable? Why should everyone play marauder? That's just boring.

 

We had better class balance in 6.0 and 5.0, now only few classes are good enough for most content. Of course different mechanics require certain types of classes (such as Styrak), that's not the issue. You only need 4 people come on alts with knockback, and snipers, sorcs, sins were all viable, even arsenal as a backup/panic pusher. My problem is that now everyone needs to run a mara or PT and if you play something else, the people who play PT and mara are going to be prioritized when forming raids. Mostly I don't care because I've been tanking more than dps'ing lately. But on the occasions where I have to dps, I want to pick a class I enjoy playing, not what devs want me to play.

 

If you want to be a good DPS, you have to go with the times, Stagnation leads to regression. Those that only play one class, don't play for long.

 

I'd call it stagnation when everyone only plays PT or marauder, or they are required to play only those two classes by their raid leaders which makes it even worse. How are those people ever going to learn other classes, when they can only raid on mara or PT?

 

And no, I'm not concerned how they will ever learn to play anything else, I couldn't care less. I just pointed out that the same thing can be seen from different PoV, and neither is necessarily wrong. I personally prefer class variety and making the most out of even weird combinations because IMO having more than one way to do things will make everyone a better player. Adapting to unpopular class choices makes the fights fresh again, because you'll have to think how to deal with certain mechanics with different class combinations. If there is only one way to do things, one class to use, it gets boring really fast and bored players don't play for long.

[ZUHFB]

So, you think that mercs are so bad that you actually call people who play them in harder content stupid.

 

No spec should be so bad that people like you call the people who play them stupid.

 

Devs, it's up to you. Fix the underperforming specs, or keep doing things the way you are, and continue to divide and anger people.

 

No, if someone straight up refuses to play something else and we wipe to not having enough damage there are two options: 1. He logs meta class, 2. I leave. It's just my right not to be held hostage by someone like this. Yes obviously you can bring merc dps to almost all fights, doesn't make it good. If you buff mercs, it is still not good AND they are really strong in PvP, because the only thing you can do is give them damage really. There is no solution to this, if you are a merc main you should also learn a 2nd meta spec for when you are progressing. Merc is just useless, it just brings nothing - that is not my opinion but the objective truth.

 

And no, mercs should not be buffed in any major way.

[AdjeYo]

No, if someone straight up refuses to play something else and we wipe to not having enough damage there are two options: 1. He logs meta class, 2. I leave. It's just my right not to be held hostage by someone like this. Yes obviously you can bring merc dps to almost all fights, doesn't make it good. If you buff mercs, it is still not good AND they are really strong in PvP, because the only thing you can do is give them damage really. There is no solution to this, if you are a merc main you should also learn a 2nd meta spec for when you are progressing. Merc is just useless, it just brings nothing - that is not my opinion but the objective truth.

 

And no, mercs should not be buffed in any major way.

 

You can give them raid utility. Make give Chaff Flare some raid buff. Something Rebounder-esque, or some defensive benefit for the group. Buff the Stealth Scan movement speed to actually include yourself too.

In addition to that buff their damage a bit to be more competetive with similar specs. And tadaa, Mercs will be much better in raids. Maybe not the top meta spec, but that's fine.

[Exly]

No, if someone straight up refuses to play something else and we wipe to not having enough damage there are two options: 1. He logs meta class, 2. I leave. It's just my right not to be held hostage by someone like this. Yes obviously you can bring merc dps to almost all fights, doesn't make it good. If you buff mercs, it is still not good AND they are really strong in PvP, because the only thing you can do is give them damage really. There is no solution to this, if you are a merc main you should also learn a 2nd meta spec for when you are progressing. Merc is just useless, it just brings nothing - that is not my opinion but the objective truth.

 

And no, mercs should not be buffed in any major way.

 

So, mercs suck and are somehow holding you hostage, but they should always suck. It's thinking like that that created the problem in the first place.

 

No spec should suck so bad that people react to them like the way that you have done in your recent posts.

 

Devs, please do something about this. Reasonable differences between specs keeps the game interesting, but those differences should not be designed to cause the slinging of insults like "I would just think that person is stupid" that are being directed towards people that play underperforming specs.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Exly

[ZUHFB]

So, mercs suck and are somehow holding you hostage, but they should always suck. It's thinking like that that created the problem in the first place.

 

No spec should suck so bad that people react to them like the way that you have done in your recent posts.

 

Devs, please do something about this. Reasonable differences between specs keeps the game interesting, but those differences should not be designed to cause the slinging of insults like "I would just think that person is stupid" that are being directed towards people that play underperforming specs.

 

That play underperforming specs WHEN THIS CAUSES WIPES. Then yes.

[Exly]

That play underperforming specs WHEN THIS CAUSES WIPES. Then yes.

 

If the devs fixed things, then there wouldn't be any under performing specs.