Planned Balance Changes for 7.1.1

[sithBracer]

If the devs fixed things, then there wouldn't be any under performing specs.

 

Seriously, where were you for the last 10 years when sin dps was trash tier in raids? Where were you in 3.X when people mostly brought mercs and 1 mara into raids? This is what you get when you play an MMO. One day your class is on top, the next it is on the bottom. This is not a BW thing, this is something that happens when we have different classes who specialize in different things. This happens in WoW, this happens in ff14, this happens in gw2, this happens in LoL. The fact that you are not able to get this, astounds me.

 

No one is even asking you to play another class, play another SPEC. Are you that bad that you can't play anything other than the most braindead spec in the game? If so, I'm pretty sure you are the problem, and always will be the problem, regardless of how much they buff/nerf the class.

[sithBracer]

You can give them raid utility. Make give Chaff Flare some raid buff. Something Rebounder-esque, or some defensive benefit for the group. Buff the Stealth Scan movement speed to actually include yourself too.

In addition to that buff their damage a bit to be more competetive with similar specs. And tadaa, Mercs will be much better in raids. Maybe not the top meta spec, but that's fine.

 

If they nerf net (specifically the hindered effect), they can double their damage for all I care.

 

As of right now, mercs have too much to increase their damage more. they have better DCDs than a tank, they are a ranged burst spec, self heals, they have net. Give them more damage and we go back to 5.X. I would be more than fine if mercs actually had to give up defenses/net for more damage, but the whiners will never agree to that because they don't actually want balance. they want to stand still, click click click and magically kill everyone around them because they just refuse to learn to play.

 

Also, where were you when sin was at the bottom for the last 10 years?

Edited September 12, 2022 by sithBracer

[Exly]

Seriously, where were you for the last 10 years when sin dps was trash tier in raids? Where were you in 3.X when people mostly brought mercs and 1 mara into raids? This is what you get when you play an MMO. One day your class is on top, the next it is on the bottom. This is not a BW thing, this is something that happens when we have different classes who specialize in different things. This happens in WoW, this happens in ff14, this happens in gw2, this happens in LoL. The fact that you are not able to get this, astounds me.

 

No one is even asking you to play another class, play another SPEC. Are you that bad that you can't play anything other than the most braindead spec in the game? If so, I'm pretty sure you are the problem, and always will be the problem, regardless of how much they buff/nerf the class.

 

I don't play wow or ff14 or gw2. I play this game. I don't play merc in harder content, but I do enjoy playing it in other content. I don't see how merc specs are any more braindead than deception, vengeance, lighting, madness, lethality, concealment, tactics or carnage. Lashing out at me because I want balance is kind of strange, but ok.

 

You do help me to make my point though. The current imbalance is causing people to become hostile and is leading to insults being hurled at people for no good reason. The devs can fix that if they choose to.

 

In the meantime, you can point the finger at me if you want but doing so fixes nothing.

[sithBracer]

I don't play wow or ff14 or gw2.

 

Stopped reading, you are either completely missing the point, or trolling right now.

[Exly]

Stopped reading, you are either completely missing the point, or trolling right now.

 

lol..

[AdjeYo]

If they nerf net (specifically the hindered effect), they can double their damage for all I care.

 

Could have them choose between net and some part of their damage. Or perhaps better yet, make them choose between net and a significant dcd. (Say choose between net and merc reflect). That'd be on the level with the choices some other classes have to make, and it makes it so they can't have net and very strong DCD's.

 

As of right now, mercs have too much to increase their damage more. they have better DCDs than a tank, they are a ranged burst spec, self heals, they have net. Give them more damage and we go back to 5.X. I would be more than fine if mercs actually had to give up defenses/net for more damage, but the whiners will never agree to that because they don't actually want balance. they want to stand still, click click click and magically kill everyone around them because they just refuse to learn to play.

 

Also, where were you when sin was at the bottom for the last 10 years?

 

Right on this forming wanting sins to be buffed tbh. I play more sin dps than I do merc dps. But I was just commenting on one way to make them more viable for ops. Give them some actual raid utility. Also last 10 years is a bit of an overstatement. Deception has been solid at times, Hatred has had its time as a very desireble dps for some time. I don't recall how they were in 5.x, but since 6.0 at least Hatred has been very solid. Just a shame it doesn't have much raid utility. (And I personally dislike its entire rotation revolving around keeping up Maliciousness since 7.0, but that's a whole other matter).

Edited September 12, 2022 by AdjeYo

[sithBracer]

Could have them choose between net and some part of their damage. Or perhaps better yet, make them choose between net and a significant dcd. (Say choose between net and merc reflect). That'd be on the level with the choices some other classes have to make, and it makes it so they can't have net and very strong DCD's.

 

Yeah, having them choose between net and higher dps or a powerful DCD and higher dps is fine imo. But we all know the mercs will just continue to whine if that were they case.

 

 

Right on this forming wanting sins to be buffed tbh. I play more sin dps than I do merc dps. But I was just commenting on one way to make them more viable for ops. Give them some actual raid utility. Also last 10 years is a bit of an overstatement. Deception has been solid at times, Hatred has had its time as a very desireble dps for some time. I don't recall how they were in 5.x, but since 6.0 at least Hatred has been very solid. Just a shame it doesn't have much raid utility. (And I personally dislike its entire rotation revolving around keeping up Maliciousness since 7.0, but that's a whole other matter).

 

hmm alright, apologies then. I remember pretty much only one time deception was good in PvE and it was nerfed almost immediately. It was when someone parsed highest with deception, and even though that person himself said that the parse was complete luck, that he could not reproduce it and that the average parse was MUCH less than that, BW still nerfed them (I think this was 4.X?). As for hatred, I honestly don't remember a time when they were desirable in PvE. In 3.X they were top in solo ranked for a short while, but bad in PvE, in 4.X they were bottom parsers with nothing to offer, 5.X same thing, 6.X they were better but that was mostly because ops became too easy in 6.X, still somewhere close to the bottom. 7.X as far as I can remember was the only time they were desirable, and even then there are still classes much more desirable than them.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

That's my problem right there: mara being OP patch after patch. Why is marauder so special that it's untouchable? Why should everyone play marauder? That's just boring.

 

Did you just say Carnage is OP?

How long have you been playing this game, 15 minutes?

 

As far as "Marauders being so special'

 

It's a pure DPS class. No role switching, No-off role abilities, no heals [Carnage and Fury]. They should have some of the highest DPS in the game. Same for Sniper, the other pure DPS class.

 

That's like saying in D&D that the fighter class shouldn't be the best class at fighting.

 

They're called Sith Warriors for a reason.

 

The real problem here is not the pecking order itself. It's the amount of disparity from top to bottom. The difference in DPS from top to bottom shouldn't be more than 3k. You'll still have a pecking order but everything would be viable that way.

Edited September 12, 2022 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Deaconik]

Yeah, having them choose between net and higher dps or a powerful DCD and higher dps is fine imo. But we all know the mercs will just continue to whine if that were they case.

 

 

 

 

hmm alright, apologies then. I remember pretty much only one time deception was good in PvE and it was nerfed almost immediately. It was when someone parsed highest with deception, and even though that person himself said that the parse was complete luck, that he could not reproduce it and that the average parse was MUCH less than that, BW still nerfed them (I think this was 4.X?). As for hatred, I honestly don't remember a time when they were desirable in PvE. In 3.X they were top in solo ranked for a short while, but bad in PvE, in 4.X they were bottom parsers with nothing to offer, 5.X same thing, 6.X they were better but that was mostly because ops became too easy in 6.X, still somewhere close to the bottom. 7.X as far as I can remember was the only time they were desirable, and even then there are still classes much more desirable than them.

 

Sins won't get there for multiple reasons. No raid utilities, stealthy shenanigans, paper class. They are where they belong to - PvP class. You would have to give sins some big boosts to make them viable which would make them pretty uber in PvP. Funnily their main utility - dirty revive - got removed, which makes them even less desired.

 

Also I don't get this crying over sins when we're - again - in a state, when almost all classes are viable as long as they are played by competent people. We just received a nerf to bosses in operation, which makes the DPS checks laughable and new gear (BuT r4 iS hARd - yea, bet those fleet Watchdog PUGs think otherwise)

[sithBracer]

Sins won't get there for multiple reasons. No raid utilities, stealthy shenanigans, paper class. They are where they belong to - PvP class. You would have to give sins some big boosts to make them viable which would make them pretty uber in PvP. Funnily their main utility - dirty revive - got removed, which makes them even less desired.

 

To be fair they weren't that great in PvP for a long time. The last time hatred was good in PvP was 3.X. Deception has been skirting middle and bottom of middle since 3.X and was just the operative's younger, slower, dumber brother all throughout 6.X. And seriously, you honestly believe trash like severing slash was the best they could think of? Right now deception has a niche in 4dps arena games. But due to the fact that it is so over reliant on its opener and doesn't have anything else, they are kind of meh in warzones and trash tier in tank/healer arenas.

 

Also I don't get this crying over sins when we're - again - in a state, when almost all classes are viable as long as they are played by competent people. We just received a nerf to bosses in operation, which makes the DPS checks laughable and new gear (BuT r4 iS hARd - yea, bet those fleet Watchdog PUGs think otherwise)

 

I think it is more the idea of where hatred SHOULD be, versus where they keep putting it. As a squishy melee DoT spec that has no utility, hatred SHOULD be doing higher dps than anyone else. But for some reason BW keeps putting their dps in the trash. It is different from the lightning sorc cryers who don't seem to understand that lightning is a 35m ranged, mobile burst spec. It's dps parses SHOULD be at the bottom.

Edited September 12, 2022 by sithBracer

[kerplunkcatt]

 

Disintegration - Death Field and Death Brand grant Vitiate's Malice, giving Force Lightning 20% Lifesteal for 12 seconds.

 

Force Horrors - Increase periodic damage from 15% to 20%.

 

First, sorry if this has been answered before now, hard to effectively parse through 34 pages of posts. For the Disintegration change, would that life steal be in addition to what Disintegration already does? IE: Crit increase for Lightning Strike and Force Leach as well as increasing periodic damage by 15%.

 

Secondly, for the Force Horrors change, I'm not sure what Force Horrors is... Is that a sage ability? It's either pretty good if it's increasing the Disintegration damage boost from 15% to 20% or slightly good if it's increasing the execute range damage increase.

 

All that said, while I understand the direction, Madness was underperforming as a DPS spec while their tac was broken. I realize that they have quite a bit more survivability in their kit than most classes, but that means nothing when DPS checks are as steep as they are in PVE content. I'm afraid that this is just going to push more of us (Me) away from sorc entirely into playing Viru which has much more raid utility and does more damage despite having the complexity of a four-piece puzzle.

 

My thoughts are that I think this change is going in the very wrong direction. If the worry is for their efficacy in PVP, giving FL lifesteal is only going to further annoy the PVP crowd while not really doing anything for the PVE crowd, meanwhile the nerfs to the damage are just going to lead to folks quitting the sorc entirely, or swapping to Ling which is getting even steeper nerfs here. I'm honestly not a fan of that mentality as 7.0 was the first time in a long, long time that Madness was playable in PVE content, and Ling was also doing well for itself, but I felt they were both within reason, if anything Madness was underperforming for its lack of practical ability to get the raid buff, as well as have any utility beyond being something the healers don't have to heal.

 

I'd be interested in hearing the dev team's mentality on this. Is it the expectation that sorc be the weakest (or near to it, hard to tell) of the ranged DPS classes, and if so why? Beyond that, even if it was slated to be the weakest by some metric I don't know, does it have to be the weakest by such a degree as to turn off serious players from using the class?

[WendaWenda]

Remove the aggro drop feature from Evasion. (PVE)

Evasion is only usable against melee/range damage, which rarely targets a DPS and when it does its when there is Aggro on the player.

For example you could use Evasion to negate damage from Dread Master Brontes in Burn Phase, but now u can't cause u drop your aggro and boss switches targets and u ''wasted'' your defensive.

[DeannaVoyager]

Did you just say Carnage is OP?

How long have you been playing this game, 15 minutes?

 

As far as "Marauders being so special'

 

It's a pure DPS class. No role switching, No-off role abilities, no heals [Carnage and Fury]. They should have some of the highest DPS in the game. Same for Sniper, the other pure DPS class.

 

That's like saying in D&D that the fighter class shouldn't be the best class at fighting.

 

They're called Sith Warriors for a reason.

 

The real problem here is not the pecking order itself. It's the amount of disparity from top to bottom. The difference in DPS from top to bottom shouldn't be more than 3k. You'll still have a pecking order but everything would be viable that way.

 

No I didn't. You did. Do not put words you said into my mouth, better yet, don't start strawmanning if you want to have a sensible discussion. Otherwise I might think you are just trying to start a fight.

 

So you want marauder to be OP because it's a "pure" dps class. Why doesn't that apply to all dps classes? As long as we can't change spec in the middle of the fight, ALL classes are "pure" dps classes if they join the run as dps. Your excuse to keep marauders OP doesn't hold water.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

No I didn't. You did. Do not put words you said into my mouth, better yet, don't start strawmanning if you want to have a sensible discussion. Otherwise I might think you are just trying to start a fight.

 

So you want marauder to be OP because it's a "pure" dps class. Why doesn't that apply to all dps classes? As long as we can't change spec in the middle of the fight, ALL classes are "pure" dps classes if they join the run as dps. Your excuse to keep marauders OP doesn't hold water.

 

You just said you didn't say that and not to put words in your mouth and than you said it again. So, I'm going to ask you straight out again.

 

Are you saying that Carnage is OP? Carnage has been garbage for years, with some of the lowest DPS in the game. It was only at 7.1 did it get a bump.

 

All DPS specs are NOT pure DPS specs, only Marauders and Snipers are pure DPS, That is an indisputable, objective fact. - Other DPS specs can use off role abilties as a DPS. DPS using guards, DPS using taunts, DPS using heals. - That is the difference between a pure DPS class and a DPS spec. 'Pure DPS" means no having tank abilties or healer abilties while being a DPS spec.

 

Not all DPS specs are pure DPS.

 

And yes, if you have the balls to say that Carnage is/has been OP., than yes, I am absolutely picking a fight with you because than you are lying out of your ***. Objectively.

 

This is a screen shot from Parsley from 6.0. Carnage had the lowest DPS in the entire game. It was rank 18 out of 18. - https://ibb.co/bdNvWnV

 

Up until 7.1, Carnage had the lowest DPS out of any melee spec in the entire game. It was Marksmen at 18, Arsenal at 17, and Carnage at 16 for most of it.

 

I've been playing this game for 8 years and I only play one character. A Carnage Marauder. I played it when it had the lowest DPS in the game, I played it when it had the lowest DPS of any melee spec in the game. It is the lowest performing Marauder spec and has been the lowest performing Marauder spec since 6.0. possibly even part of 5.0. and I never switched specs or played something else because its DPS was garbage. Carnage was in the same position that what you are playing currently is.

 

So don't come in here talking your smack about how all Marauders are OP and have been so for many patches, as that is an objective out right lie and here is the proof of that lie. - https://ibb.co/bdNvWnV

 

Say Fury. Say Annihilation's heals.

 

You want higher DPS than a Marauder, but also access to off role-abilities while playing a DPS spec, and the ability to click a button and heal yourself.

 

To use the D&D analogy again, you want to play a Thief or a Cleric who fights better than the Fighter class, plus has all those those extra abilties and spells.

 

You wanna fight from 5 blocks away while healing yourself, your DPS should be low.

 

Where I do agree with you is that I don't think people should have to change their spec to be viable - . And while a ranged burst spec should be on the lower end of the DPS spectrum, the disparity from top to bottom is too

extreme. 6K is too much.

Edited September 13, 2022 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[ZUHFB]

You just said you didn't say that and not to put words in your mouth and than you said it again. So, I'm going to ask you straight out again.

 

Are you saying that Carnage is OP? Carnage has been garbage for years, with some of the lowest DPS in the game. It was only at 7.1 did it get a bump.

 

All DPS specs are NOT pure DPS specs, only Marauders and Snipers are pure DPS, That is an indisputable, objective fact. - Other DPS specs can use off role abilties as a DPS. DPS using guards, DPS using taunts, DPS using heals. - That is the difference between a pure DPS class and a DPS spec. 'Pure DPS" means no having tank abilties or healer abilties while being a DPS spec.

 

Not all DPS specs are pure DPS.

 

And yes, if you have the balls to say that Carnage is/has been OP., than yes, I am absolutely picking a fight with you because than you are lying out of your ***. Objectively.

 

This is a screen shot from Parsley from 6.0. Carnage had the lowest DPS in the entire game. It was rank 18 out of 18. - https://ibb.co/bdNvWnV

 

Up until 7.1, Carnage had the lowest DPS out of any melee spec in the entire game. It was Marksmen at 18, Arsenal at 17, and Carnage at 16 for most of it.

 

I've been playing this game for 8 years and I only play one character. A Carnage Marauder. I played it when it had the lowest DPS in the game, I played it when it had the lowest DPS of any melee spec in the game. It is the lowest performing Marauder spec and has been the lowest performing Marauder spec since 6.0. possibly even part of 5.0. and I never switched specs or played something else because its DPS was garbage. Carnage was in the same position that what you are playing currently is.

 

So don't come in here talking your smack about how all Marauders are OP and have been so for many patches, as that is an objective out right lie and here is the proof of that lie. - https://ibb.co/bdNvWnV

 

Say Fury. Say Annihilation's heals.

 

You want higher DPS than a Marauder, but also access to off role-abilities while playing a DPS spec, and the ability to click a button and heal yourself.

 

To use the D&D analogy again, you want to play a Thief or a Cleric who fights better than the Fighter class, plus has all those those extra abilties and spells.

 

You wanna fight from 5 blocks away while healing yourself, your DPS should be low.

 

doesn't really matter how carnage WAS, it is kinda good for PvP right now. It is... on the same level as fury. It's not like carnage would be the worst spec right now, it's kinda good - for PvE the problem isn't that carnage is bad, it is that Annihilation is WAY better.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

doesn't really matter how carnage WAS, it is kinda good for PvP right now. It is... on the same level as fury. It's not like carnage would be the worst spec right now, it's kinda good - for PvE the problem isn't that carnage is bad, it is that Annihilation is WAY better.

 

I wasn't saying that carnage is presently rock bottom. I made mention of the fact that they got a bump in 7.1. That bump, however came with a cost. The play style is very different, the rotation is clunky and very unforgiving of mistakes, the resource management is abysmal, and quite honestly, is less fun to play now. Also the rage refund has a slight, but noticeable delay, and it lowers the APMS. - I guess if someone liked Fanged God, it's more to their liking, but as a burst spec Shard of Mortis really doesn't make sense. Too much emphasis on a filler attack and I wasn't a fan of Fanged God. [but, that's just a personal opinion] - I was merely trying to point out that it wasn't OP for the last few patches as the the person I was responding to was alluding to and that I as a Carnage player still played it even when it was bad.

 

There's no question that Fury and Anni have a higher DPS ceiling than Carnage does and I don't have a problem that Anni does, Fury shouldn't however.

 

I agree with you, it's by no means the worst spec right now. It's not bad, but it isn't stellar either.

 

Anni's damage in and of itself isn't why Anni is WAY better in PVE, particular with regard to raiding, it's the group heals in addition to it's damage that make it that way. Anni kinda breaks the mold of a 'pure DPS' and I personally [and this is just my opinion, not an objective fact] don't think a Marauder spec should have heals like that, but, it is part of parcel of the spec at this point and part of it's identity and I would have a hard time trying to come up with a legitimate reason to take those heals away from them and not utterly destroy the spec in doing so.

 

Furthermore, Anni is a sustained spec, it should have higher DPS than a burst spec. I have no issue with that, but clearly the combination of high DPS and the group heals thing make it a no brainer choice and is why it is the most sought after spec for Raiding.

Edited September 13, 2022 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[AdjeYo]

You just said you didn't say that and not to put words in your mouth and than you said it again. So, I'm going to ask you straight out again.

 

Are you saying that Carnage is OP? Carnage has been garbage for years, with some of the lowest DPS in the game. It was only at 7.1 did it get a bump.

 

All DPS specs are NOT pure DPS specs, only Marauders and Snipers are pure DPS, That is an indisputable, objective fact. - Other DPS specs can use off role abilties as a DPS. DPS using guards, DPS using taunts, DPS using heals. - That is the difference between a pure DPS class and a DPS spec. 'Pure DPS" means no having tank abilties or healer abilties while being a DPS spec.

 

Not all DPS specs are pure DPS.

 

And yes, if you have the balls to say that Carnage is/has been OP., than yes, I am absolutely picking a fight with you because than you are lying out of your ***. Objectively.

 

This is a screen shot from Parsley from 6.0. Carnage had the lowest DPS in the entire game. It was rank 18 out of 18. - https://ibb.co/bdNvWnV

 

Up until 7.1, Carnage had the lowest DPS out of any melee spec in the entire game. It was Marksmen at 18, Arsenal at 17, and Carnage at 16 for most of it.

 

I've been playing this game for 8 years and I only play one character. A Carnage Marauder. I played it when it had the lowest DPS in the game, I played it when it had the lowest DPS of any melee spec in the game. It is the lowest performing Marauder spec and has been the lowest performing Marauder spec since 6.0. possibly even part of 5.0. and I never switched specs or played something else because its DPS was garbage. Carnage was in the same position that what you are playing currently is.

 

So don't come in here talking your smack about how all Marauders are OP and have been so for many patches, as that is an objective out right lie and here is the proof of that lie. - https://ibb.co/bdNvWnV

 

Say Fury. Say Annihilation's heals.

 

You want higher DPS than a Marauder, but also access to off role-abilities while playing a DPS spec, and the ability to click a button and heal yourself.

 

To use the D&D analogy again, you want to play a Thief or a Cleric who fights better than the Fighter class, plus has all those those extra abilties and spells.

 

You wanna fight from 5 blocks away while healing yourself, your DPS should be low.

 

Dps guard has been removed. The only thing that 'tank dps classes' have is 1 taunt. Compared to Maria's with their predation, bloodthirst and in the case of Anni healing, by that logic Vengeance should do much better dps than Anni.

[ZUHFB]

Dps guard has been removed. The only thing that 'tank dps classes' have is 1 taunt. Compared to Maria's with their predation, bloodthirst and in the case of Anni healing, by that logic Vengeance should do much better dps than Anni.

 

As a vengeance enjoyer I second this. Nerf the sorcs, let's go!

[Deaconik]

Dps guard has been removed. The only thing that 'tank dps classes' have is 1 taunt. Compared to Maria's with their predation, bloodthirst and in the case of Anni healing, by that logic Vengeance should do much better dps than Anni.

 

Technically we can talk about the fact that all dwts have some strong defensives which should be on the tanking side of the things. Shroud? Reflect? Fake HP? Self heals? We can talk about leaving one of them be (guarded by the force in the end is godlike defensive as well), but all of them sounds on the tanking side of things. That's why DWTs are so good at ... offtanking for a while(in other words until their defensives vanish).

 

Taunt isn't as weak as you make it seem when we talk about DWTs. Just removing the taunt would make IP CPT very harder So it's not "JUST" taunt. Also also just the aoe taunt with aoe reflect isn't as weak either

 

And to be fair all the DWTs are in a very fine spot. Juggs just need some mobility buff to get on par with force speed, hydraulics and ZOMG PREDATION!@$!@$!! Imagine Maras having predation while DWTs... oh, wait, nevermind

[DeannaVoyager]

You just said you didn't say that and not to put words in your mouth and than you said it again. So, I'm going to ask you straight out again.

 

Are you saying that Carnage is OP? Carnage has been garbage for years, with some of the lowest DPS in the game. It was only at 7.1 did it get a bump.

 

All DPS specs are NOT pure DPS specs, only Marauders and Snipers are pure DPS, That is an indisputable, objective fact. - Other DPS specs can use off role abilties as a DPS. DPS using guards, DPS using taunts, DPS using heals. - That is the difference between a pure DPS class and a DPS spec. 'Pure DPS" means no having tank abilties or healer abilties while being a DPS spec.

 

Not all DPS specs are pure DPS.

 

And yes, if you have the balls to say that Carnage is/has been OP., than yes, I am absolutely picking a fight with you because than you are lying out of your ***. Objectively.

 

This is a screen shot from Parsley from 6.0. Carnage had the lowest DPS in the entire game. It was rank 18 out of 18. - https://ibb.co/bdNvWnV

 

Up until 7.1, Carnage had the lowest DPS out of any melee spec in the entire game. It was Marksmen at 18, Arsenal at 17, and Carnage at 16 for most of it.

 

I've been playing this game for 8 years and I only play one character. A Carnage Marauder. I played it when it had the lowest DPS in the game, I played it when it had the lowest DPS of any melee spec in the game. It is the lowest performing Marauder spec and has been the lowest performing Marauder spec since 6.0. possibly even part of 5.0. and I never switched specs or played something else because its DPS was garbage. Carnage was in the same position that what you are playing currently is.

 

So don't come in here talking your smack about how all Marauders are OP and have been so for many patches, as that is an objective out right lie and here is the proof of that lie. - https://ibb.co/bdNvWnV

 

Say Fury. Say Annihilation's heals.

 

You want higher DPS than a Marauder, but also access to off role-abilities while playing a DPS spec, and the ability to click a button and heal yourself.

 

To use the D&D analogy again, you want to play a Thief or a Cleric who fights better than the Fighter class, plus has all those those extra abilties and spells.

 

You wanna fight from 5 blocks away while healing yourself, your DPS should be low.

 

Where I do agree with you is that I don't think people should have to change their spec to be viable - . And while a ranged burst spec should be on the lower end of the DPS spectrum, the disparity from top to bottom is too

extreme. 6K is too much.

 

I don't know why you think I said anything about carnage, you are the one (still) trying to claim I did, which I never did. Anyone can scroll back and read it for themselves. You should probably do it too. So stop pushing that BS on me just to have an argument. It's not my fault if you can only play carnage and can't see the differences in dps output of different specs and classes.

 

Seems to me it's you who's only played the game for 15 mins, if you don't understand that a dps class is a dps throughout the fight. Just because someone "can" go outside to change class or spec, doesn't make it any less of a dps class when they are in the instance and boss is pulled. Your rant about "pure" dps classes doesn't change that. That is an indisputable, objective fact. If you'd understand anything about other classes, you would understand that a dps who is using GCD's to self heal IS already doing less dps because they are using their GCD for heals and not dps. In other words: when they are only dps'ing their numbers should be on the same level with other dps classes because they are "purely" dps'ing.

[ZUHFB]

Seems to me it's you who's only played the game for 15 mins, if you don't understand that a dps class is a dps throughout the fight. Just because someone "can" go outside to change class or spec, doesn't make it any less of a dps class when they are in the instance and boss is pulled. Your rant about "pure" dps classes doesn't change that. That is an indisputable, objective fact. If you'd understand anything about other classes, you would understand that a dps who is using GCD's to self heal IS already doing less dps because they are using their GCD for heals and not dps. In other words: when they are only dps'ing their numbers should be on the same level with other dps classes because they are "purely" dps'ing.

 

I disagree, having the option to selfheal, offheal and cleanse is part of the class even in PvE. Your point would have been way better if you would have said that having pred pretty much outweighs all of these things. Marauders are in a good spot right now, they definitely do not need a buff. Nerfing sorcs might be harsh but if players play the class in a not intended way (apparently) it will change, if that change happens to be a nerf well unlucky.

[AdjeYo]

Technically we can talk about the fact that all dwts have some strong defensives which should be on the tanking side of the things. Shroud? Reflect? Fake HP? Self heals? We can talk about leaving one of them be (guarded by the force in the end is godlike defensive as well), but all of them sounds on the tanking side of things. That's why DWTs are so good at ... offtanking for a while(in other words until their defensives vanish).

 

Taunt isn't as weak as you make it seem when we talk about DWTs. Just removing the taunt would make IP CPT very harder So it's not "JUST" taunt. Also also just the aoe taunt with aoe reflect isn't as weak either

 

And to be fair all the DWTs are in a very fine spot. Juggs just need some mobility buff to get on par with force speed, hydraulics and ZOMG PREDATION!@$!@$!! Imagine Maras having predation while DWTs... oh, wait, nevermind

 

Maras have much, much better defensives than Juggernauts. Did you honestly just talk about Endure Pain as a 'good' defensive? Also Reflect is nice, and a nice dps boost when it works, but is very limited in its application (and thus often not chosen over Mad Dash). Maras you got Cloak of Pain (on it's own, one of the best defensives in raids), and lol cut all damage in half camouflage and the choice between Mad Dash and 99% damage reduction. I'd take that any day over Reflect, Endure Pain and Enraged Defense. (Oh and Anni gets solid self heals too).

 

To be clear, I wasn't exactly saying Vengeance actually should be ahead of Anni in damage by a lot. I'm merely pointing out that the idea of a 'pure dps' versus 'non pure dps' is in any way valid. Because even pure dps can bring unique and strong raid buffs that give just as much, if not more, utility than some other dps. Pred + Bloodthirst for Mara and Sniper Shield + Diversion for Snipers means those classes always have something valuable to bring to raids. They don't also have to deal more damage than their competitors in addition.

 

Juggs are fine in mobility, they're a bit behind but that fits the class identity. Honestly since its introduction I've always found Mad Dash a little odd for a class inspired by Vader. (Then again, it's not like I haven't made a lot of use of that amazing ability )

Edited September 13, 2022 by AdjeYo

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I don't know why you think I said anything about carnage, you are the one (still) trying to claim I did, which I never did. Anyone can scroll back and read it for themselves. You should probably do it too. So stop pushing that BS on me just to have an argument. It's not my fault if you can only play carnage and can't see the differences in dps output of different specs and classes.

 

Seems to me it's you who's only played the game for 15 mins, if you don't understand that a dps class is a dps throughout the fight. Just because someone "can" go outside to change class or spec, doesn't make it any less of a dps class when they are in the instance and boss is pulled. Your rant about "pure" dps classes doesn't change that. That is an indisputable, objective fact. If you'd understand anything about other classes, you would understand that a dps who is using GCD's to self heal IS already doing less dps because they are using their GCD for heals and not dps. In other words: when they are only dps'ing their numbers should be on the same level with other dps classes because they are "purely" dps'ing.

 

I took your advice and scrolled back. - Bad advice.

 

That's my problem right there: mara being OP patch after patch. Why is marauder so special that it's untouchable? Why should everyone play marauder? That's just boring.

 

I do believe Carnage is a Marauder spec.

 

I can totally see the difference in the DPS specs, that's why I included a screen shot from Parsley that showed all the specs.

 

I'm not talking solely about the fact that they can change roles. You are right, you can't do that during a fight.

What I am more so referring to is the abilties to use off role abilities while in a DPS spec. That has effects during a fight and gives options not available to a pure DPS spec. As in, no taunts, no self-self healing.

 

You are acting like 'losing damage during a GCD while healing' is somehow unfair and in some way mitigates the fact that you have the option to self heal.

 

You can't DPS when you are dead, so I would put forth the argument that 'wasting that GCD to heal' does effect DPS extremely in increasing said DPS overall. No one is forcing you to 'waste a GCD healing'. That is a decision you make, whereas that isn't a decision a pure DPS class can make because they don't have that option in the first place.

 

Unless there has been a change, I do believe that Mercenaries also have a raid buff, a +10% alacrity raid buff. And Scoundrels / Operatives can apply a +10% crit raid buff. Sages / Sorcerers can apply a +10% mastery raid buff. I checked on Google because I don't play those classes. If that has changed or that information I found is wrong, by all means point that out. -

 

You think that because you can't DPS while your healing that you should get buffed so that you can heal yourself and not lose any damage at the same time. You want the best of both worlds with no downside.

If you don't want to waste that GCD to heal yourself and lose damage, than do what pure DPS classes do, don't heal yourself.

 

Taunts and self heals and the like are options non pure DPS classes have while in DPS specs that are not available to pure DPS classes. There is the difference. They are not the same,

 

And just in case it was forgotten, let me remind you that I initially stated that I'm not saying that under performing specs shouldn't get a buff. They absolutely should get a buff.

 

What I am saying is that that buff shouldn't give you better DPS than classes that don't have those off-role abilties for classes that CAN use those off role abilties WHILE THEY ARE in a DPS spec.

 

Ranged shouldn't have the DPS that melee specs do. Range matters. Just like healing matters, just like taunting matters.

 

When a lfg is announced on fleet looking for DPS with taunts, I as a pure DPS class won't be accepted despite the fact that I am also a DPS spec just like DPS specs with taunts.

Edited September 13, 2022 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Dps guard has been removed. The only thing that 'tank dps classes' have is 1 taunt. Compared to Maria's with their predation, bloodthirst and in the case of Anni healing, by that logic Vengeance should do much better dps than Anni.

 

I stand corrected, no guards, just taunts.

 

Also I'd just like to point out that predation and bloodthirst aren't off role abilties.

 

And as I mentioned in another post, Marauders aren't the only class with a raid buff. If the information I got googling raid buffs for the various classes is still accurate, this is what I found -

 

Scoundrels / Operatives can apply a +10% crit raid buff

Sages / Sorcerers can apply a +10% mastery raid buff

Commandos / Mercenaries can apply a +10% alacrity raid buff

Sentinels / Marauders can apply a +10% bonus to damage and healing

 

 

If this is outdated, by all means, correct me on that.

...........

 

Regarding the argument of Vengeance doing more DPS than Anni - I'm assuming your argument [and please correct me if I'm wrong and I will offer my apologies], that your basis for saying Vengeance should have better DPS than Anni is as Anni's heals would be something of an equivalent to an 'off role ability' as a DPS spec, but that would simply put it in the same 'category' as Vengeance, Anni's heals being like the 'off role ability' compared to Vengeance's off role ability [Taunts]. If that is the case, that would kinda negate that argument.

 

Additionally, Vengeance can heal some in its own right , that just a question of degrees. Anni also has to be actively fighting for those heals to be obtained, Anni can't just click a button and get more health back. Also, the entire group benefits from those heals, not just the Anni Mara. That's for all intents and purposes more like a raid buff.

 

I did mention in an earlier post that Anni having group heals never really sat well with me. I am of the opinion that pure DPS classes should have high DPS but no heals. But that's just a personal opinion and I'm not suggesting Anni should lose them.

Edited September 13, 2022 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[AdjeYo]

I stand corrected, no guards, just taunts.

 

Also I'd just like to point out that predation and bloodthirst aren't off role abilties.

 

And as I mentioned in another post, Marauders aren't the only class with a raid buff. If the information I got googling raid buffs for the various classes is still accurate, this is what I found -

 

Scoundrels / Operatives can apply a +10% crit raid buff

Sages / Sorcerers can apply a +10% mastery raid buff

Commandos / Mercenaries can apply a +10% alacrity raid buff

Sentinels / Marauders can apply a +10% bonus to damage and healing

 

 

If this is outdated, by all means, correct me on that.

...........

 

Regarding the argument of Vengeance doing more DPS than Anni - I'm assuming your argument [and please correct me if I'm wrong and I will offer my apologies], that your basis for saying Vengeance should have better DPS than Anni is as Anni's heals would be something of an equivalent to an 'off role ability' as a DPS spec, but that would simply put it in the same 'category' as Vengeance, Anni's heals being like the 'off role ability' compared to Vengeance's off role ability [Taunts]. If that is the case, that would kinda negate that argument.

 

Additionally, Vengeance can heal some in its own right , that just a question of degrees. Anni also has to be actively fighting for those heals to be obtained, Anni can't just click a button and get more health back. Also, the entire group benefits from those heals, not just the Anni Mara. That's for all intents and purposes more like a raid buff.

 

I did mention in an earlier post that Anni having group heals never really sat well with me. I am of the opinion that pure DPS classes should have high DPS but no heals. But that's just a personal opinion and I'm not suggesting Anni should lose them.

 

Off role abilities or not does not matter. All utility makes a class better. Wether that is healing, or providing the group with pred or other buffs. The idea that 'pure dps' should do more damage, is just outright wrong. They should (and do!) have other great utility to bring to raids.

 

And Vengeance cannot heal others, only itself. Just like all Maras can heal themselves. (See the level 73 and 64 options).

Edited September 13, 2022 by AdjeYo