Changes to Gearing in 7.0 from PTS Feedback

[JackieKo]

Hello Bryant & Jackie,

 

I'm continuing to refine and update my 7.0 Gearing Guide so that it's ready/up-to-date for launch (or as close as ready as possible) and I have a couple of questions...

 

Hey Xam,

 

Answering your questions in order -

 

 

- Is the tertiary stat distribution remaining the same for PvP gear (or how it was on the PTS) or is it changing to line up with the PvE gear changes?

 

PvP gear will be changing to line up with the stat distribution changes listed.

 

There are currently not many sources of Requisition Caches (these crates guarantee a gear upgrade FYI for players not familiar with 7.0 PTS) and these sources heavily favour PvE (at least on the PTS we saw). Are there plans to add Requisition Caches at the very least to the GSF and Ranked PvP Weeklies? (Requisition Caches on the PTS we saw could only be found on Priority SM Operation Weeklies, Vet & MM Flashpoint Weeklies and the Unranked PvP Weekly).

 

Those are the intended sources of the Requisition Caches. We kept in mind the amount of Requisition Caches available when determining prices for PvP gear.

 

Upgrading Set Bonus Implants (on the PTS we experienced) was a very strange and finicky process... Can we get confirmation that it was bugged (at least hopefully it was bugged) and perhaps some clarification on exactly how it is intended we upgrade our Set Bonus Implants? Is it supposed to be how we upgrade other gear pieces? ie. just currency and gear piece turn in to upgrade?

 

This is hard to answer without more detail about what was strange and finicky. However, there definitely were bugs with upgrading Set Bonus Implants that have been fixed since the last PTS. Upgrading your Implants should work like upgrading other pieces of gear, requiring currencies and a previous Implant to turn in.

 

Are we going to get Warzone Crates for completing PvP (& GSF) matches? And if so, are they going to have a chance of dropping Thyrsian (PvP) gear? On the PTS, we were getting crates from completing matches but the premium crates just dropped tech fragments...

 

In addition to Warzone Crates containing Tech Fragments, PvP Players will receive Thyrsian Production Accelerants from completing matches. Wins will reward slightly more tokens than losses.

 

 

As a general note, we intend on keeping an eye on feedback that comes in post launch. This does include feedback surrounding how players gear their alts.

[Elssha]

Hey Xam,

 

Answering your questions in order -

 

Upgrading Set Bonus Implants (on the PTS we experienced) was a very strange and finicky process... Can we get confirmation that it was bugged (at least hopefully it was bugged) and perhaps some clarification on exactly how it is intended we upgrade our Set Bonus Implants?

 

This is hard to answer without more detail about what was strange and finicky. However, there definitely were bugs with upgrading Set Bonus Implants that have been fixed since the last PTS. Upgrading your Implants should work like upgrading other pieces of gear, requiring currencies and a previous Implant to turn in.

Hi Jackie!

 

On PTS, in order to buy a 328 Legendary Implant we needed to buy TWO 326 of the SAME implant, have one equipped, and ONLY THEN would we get a choice to upgrade to a 328. I didn't bother trying, but I think a friend said the same was true about upgrading to 330 (so 2x 326 -> 328; 2x 328 -> 330, meaning you'd basically need to buy 4 326 to get 2 328 that would THEN allow you to get a single 330)...for each implant bonus you may need.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Elssha

[TrixxieTriss]

I don't think it's an either/or thing. It could be all of the above and more.

 

Obviously you want people to play the game, so you need to balance ease of access and challenge.

 

People playing the game bring in money, which since this is Electronic Arts we're talking about is more important than anything else, including player enjoyment. They want just enough enjoyment to keep players playing, and gouge them for everything they can. Electronic Arts has never, and probably will never, been accused of caring about their player base and what their player base wants.

 

This can be seen extending over to Bioware. Look at Mass Effect: Andromeda. Look at Anthem. Just enough effort, and more importantly cash, to make the game somewhat work, and bail on it. Andromeda is the perfect example of a Bioware game that was butchered into oblivion because EA mismanaged the entire affair.

 

SWOTR isn't far from that line either. They need to keep their EA overlords happy... minimum effort... maximum cash grab.

 

There's so much in this gearing system that follows that example. Massive grind and RNG to dig the hooks into players and keep them playing trying to get that last piece of armor. Never mind that players are frustrated with this playstyle... grind is the key. The bigger the grind, the more they play.

 

Now add in hubris and ego, that they are the devs, and they know what their game should play like and be like. Never mind what the players want, it doesn't support their vision, so damn the players... full speed ahead.

 

In the end what is cheaper. To fix an entire game so that accuracy isn't as important. Or simply make a relatively cheaper change to the gearing system. People want a challenge? Well we're simply lower the amount of accuracy they can have. The devs want certain tertiary traits to play a bigger role. Simply tack them onto gear, and ignore the fact that no one wants these traits. By our EA overlords, they are going to damn well use that tertiary trait.

 

Your quoting me out of context and then misunderstanding why I suggest it’s hubris.

That doesn’t answer why they didn’t use information that was readily available.

The Theory Crafters Discord group could have done most of the work and mathematics for BioWare, including the spread sheets.

It would have actually saved BioWare a heap of time and money in development costs.

And the gearing would be better balanced.

[DavidAtkinson]

Hey There soldier, let's pause a second. When did you get those numbers that 90 percent of players give only negative feedback and dislike the new gearing system? And saying that 6.0 was best of all time... well you just baffled the rest of us here.

 

It was probably second to worst, with everyone getting his within a week or two of constant spamming Hammer station and Toborro. This is not the way. This is trash system.

 

And I am not saying here that I completely agree with everything they are introducing, but tokens and vertical progression is good stuff. We used to have it before and it was working great.

 

If spamming Hammer Station was such a problem, changing the way get gear with such an enslaving system was not something this game needed was it ? All they had to do is build on what they started in 6.0 and fixing HS spam would have been one of the easiest tasks for them . And what exactly was your problem with farming content in order to gear up fast ?

 

Do you think people pay their sub to spend their gaming time grinding forever to gear up their characters or they prefer to actually have access and enjoy the content they like ? As for myself, I am a PVP-er and want to gear up in order to play what I like . If you think I am wrong, just read through this thread and see for yourself how much people love what they gonna get .

 

Like I said in previous posts, it is all set in stone and they have decided long ago that they will bring this in . All they can do now is make it suck less .

[Gibonski]

Actually, your conclusion that casual players’ average DPS will go up makes no sense whatsoever. It does not square with testing, and it certainly does not square with the math of tertiary stats. I suspect you didn’t look at the gear on the PTS. You honestly think that decreasing accuracy percentages and poorly optimizing all tertiary stats will IMPROVE a casual player’s performance?

 

Here’s what’s most likely to happen. A casual player will not know that they need to buy pieces from multiple vendors to achieve anywhere close to 110% accuracy. I’m not even sure if you can get 100% accuracy with a single set.

 

Many of us told BioWare that there was not nearly enough accuracy even mixing sets on 318/320 gear. I and others suggested increasing the amount of tertiary stats on the current sets to bring stats more in line with what’s needed.

 

BioWare’s answer? Don’t change the stats, create more sets so that we can mix and match, even though I and others had—you guessed it—mixed and matched during testing.

 

Let me explain better why casual players will have even less DPS than raiders and min-maxxers since I suspect this might be a point of confusion. If you do not have enough accuracy (110% for bosses) you miss hits. Every single miss is an absolute DPS loss. Alacrity and crit have no bearing whatsoever on a missed hit. In fact, if you have a high alacrity and low accuracy, you just miss faster.

 

I know how to get accuracy up so I miss as close to 0 hits as possible. The casual player doesn’t know this. When that newer Consular dps player selects all Force Lord armor as the game suggests s/he should do at the vendor (because NOWHERE does BioWare suggest mixing sets to maximize accuracy), that player will experience an absolute dps loss. The percentage loss of accuracy will be even greater for a casual player than it will be for someone who understands the basics of theorycrafting. I’ll be missing 2% of my hits with unaugmented gear. The casual player will be missing closer to 10%, possibly more if they don’t take any left side accuracy pieces or use a proficient stim.

 

So, casual players’ DPS will be overall lower, arguably even quite a few percentage points lower, and definitely not higher as you suggested. On top of that, bosses have more health. Now, you should understand why I think—based on PTS testing and data—that casual players will have a dps loss, perhaps even more percentage-wise than those who do understand the tertiary stats.

 

Your reasoning unfortunately applies to all expansions. Even with modded gear people are running with 2000 accuracy and 300 alacrity and vice versa. I witnessed it myself just this week. 2 years after onslaught launch. This guy tells me he's been playing since release and running with 2 focused retribution relics and these stats from above on 70 content. While I tried to set him straight and help him, he just said it's no point because patch is coming anyway. But yet again he will just put whatever drops, no worrying about stats at all. For them master and endurance are the most important stats and you won't change their mind. Already too late.

 

You worry that they will not be augmenting their gear? They don't do it now too! I don't understand your reasoning at all. 7.0 will not change casuals viewpoint on gear. They will still, and I need to stress that, still will be running in mismatched gear with stats all over the place.

 

As you pointed out fairly they don't advertise it that you need to mix and match your gear. But if you ever cared about the progression of your character and aiming for bis, you read guides, visit forums and read dev trackers. They mentioned recently that they are adding some pieces that you can mix and match. As I personally believe non modable gear is a mistake, it won't hurt casuals at all. They are closed off in their bubble: I'm playing to relax and for fun, and all your stats and augments talk is garbage.

 

Casuals will be casuals and people that run ops, pvp will be hit the most with being forced to adapt to the changes. We will adapt, no doubt about it. But I don't think that controversies surrounding this change made Bioware any good.

[Gibonski]

If spamming Hammer Station was such a problem, changing the way get gear with such an enslaving system was not something this game needed was it ? All they had to do is build on what they started in 6.0 and fixing HS spam would have been one of the easiest tasks for them . And what exactly was your problem with farming content in order to gear up fast ?

 

Do you think people pay their sub to spend their gaming time grinding forever to gear up their characters or they prefer to actually have access and enjoy the content they like ? As for myself, I am a PVP-er and want to gear up in order to play what I like . If you think I am wrong, just read through this thread and see for yourself how much people love what they gonna get .

 

Like I said in previous posts, it is all set in stone and they have decided long ago that they will bring this in . All they can do now is make it suck less .

 

My problem was not with spamming content at all. My point was that spamming such content was trivial and achievable by anyone. Anyone could get bis gear with little effort and it's not how it is supposed to work.

 

The drops offered did not vary from heroics, conquest, veteran flashpoints. We did not get satisfaction from completing something harder. We were not incentiviced to jump on hard mode to get new piece of gear and that is what created this whole spamming TC dilemma and killed pug raiding.

 

The change they have made now addresses it perfectly. Not only the rewards will be on rotation so you won't see TC everyday, but past 322 item level no one will be really interested in doing them apart from gearing alts. You will need to push yourself, get out of this hammer station comfort zone you have been in, and try to learn, do something different.

 

And maybe, just maybe people will see merit in this. Because there are tons of players now that you queue up with that have no to little idea how other flashpoints work, not even talking about ops.

 

And yes I believe people play mmos to grind, because every game of this type is based on it. Endless grind to make your character better, fancier looking, full of achievements. If you don't like it, why do you play it in the first place? And yes there will always be one: I play for the story Andy. That's great! Play the story, you don't need 330/ 334 gear to compete it!

 

I am not saying every change is good, and non modable gear is amazing, no no. I'm saying it's not game killer. I'm saying we will adapt, improvise, overcome and keep on playing. It's the other things that grind my gears. But that's a topic for other threads.

 

Peace

[codydmaan]

My problem was not with spamming content at all. My point was that spamming such content was trivial and achievable by anyone. Anyone could get bis gear with little effort and it's not how it is supposed to work.

 

Peace

 

Bis was actually a real grind for some. 306 wasn't the BIS there were 20 variations of mods and enhancements as a dps you wanted the 451 stat enhancements for capped content and the 359 power enhancements for pvp and uncapped. It was a grind to push out that squeak of extra dps. In our guild we actually have gearing lessons and raid training lessons.

 

Also to some extent BIS augments were only available to endgame pvpers (we all know u can't just pug a ranked Match and expect to win) and nim raiders who farm oem and rpms. Unless ur rich with credits to buy em most are not. So to some extent bis was restricted to endgame players

 

What's going to happen is not making the bis gear available to everyone at one point or another is going to separate the mass players who eventually want to raid.

 

I mean this is fine since even now if you wanna be on a nim team you gotta hit requirements.

 

But removing mods like they are ugh you gotta admit customizing just feels good. 😕 it's like the difference between a 10year old racing game or a new one.

 

Here drive this blue car red car or yellow car. Now it's like here's a color circle pick any color, put stickers, but x or b body kit on, what about these wheels or these headlights, this brand of turbo kit or that brand.... etc

 

We're just getting plain old stock cars with no upgrades no customization.

 

Let's face it their trying to get some players from wow since a bunch are leaving. And they know we all are gonna complain but they know most of us are gonna stay anyway.

 

It just would be nice if they didn't do this to us.

[Sethenon]

My problem was not with spamming content at all. My point was that spamming such content was trivial and achievable by anyone. Anyone could get bis gear with little effort and it's not how it is supposed to work.

 

The drops offered did not vary from heroics, conquest, veteran flashpoints. We did not get satisfaction from completing something harder. We were not incentiviced to jump on hard mode to get new piece of gear and that is what created this whole spamming TC dilemma and killed pug raiding.

 

Pug raiding didn't die at all, I see people forming groups every day, many times each day. It got funneled into the quickest and easiest raid because people value their time and aren't interested in things taking longer than they should. Taking away options isn't going to incentivize me to run hard mode anything, all it's going to do is make me realize that I don't belong here, that I don't "fit in" with the raiders.

 

Yes some people play MMO's to grind but swtor isn't *just* an MMO, it's also a single-player game - if it isn't then they spend an awful lot of time making cutscenes. This can't be stressed enough, Swtor is BOTH. FF14 caters to everything, from solo play to raids to storytime to space barbie, yet you aren't pressured into doing anything you don't want to do. Grind exists for those that find it fun and it sits beside some of the easiest and hardest content there is. They met huge success both financially and in terms of player enthusiasm (to the point you can't reasonably criticize the game's failings without being attacked) because they were smart and didn't take player agency away.

 

I'm not interested in being pushed into anything - very few people are. If people found the "no choice, do it my way content" fun more would do it of their own volition and not have to be forced into it. It's really that simple - it's not rocket science.

 

To quote a very wise and smart person:

 

“The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems(players) will slip through your fingers.”

 

I'll let you figure out who it was that said it.

[Toraak]

Bis was actually a real grind for some. 306 wasn't the BIS there were 20 variations of mods and enhancements as a dps you wanted the 451 stat enhancements for capped content and the 359 power enhancements for pvp and uncapped. It was a grind to push out that squeak of extra dps. In our guild we actually have gearing lessons and raid training lessons.

 

Also to some extent BIS augments were only available to endgame pvpers (we all know u can't just pug a ranked Match and expect to win) and nim raiders who farm oem and rpms. Unless ur rich with credits to buy em most are not. So to some extent bis was restricted to endgame players

 

What's going to happen is not making the bis gear available to everyone at one point or another is going to separate the mass players who eventually want to raid.

 

I mean this is fine since even now if you wanna be on a nim team you gotta hit requirements.

 

But removing mods like they are ugh you gotta admit customizing just feels good. 😕 it's like the difference between a 10year old racing game or a new one.

 

Here drive this blue car red car or yellow car. Now it's like here's a color circle pick any color, put stickers, but x or b body kit on, what about these wheels or these headlights, this brand of turbo kit or that brand.... etc

 

We're just getting plain old stock cars with no upgrades no customization.

 

Let's face it their trying to get some players from wow since a bunch are leaving. And they know we all are gonna complain but they know most of us are gonna stay anyway.

 

It just would be nice if they didn't do this to us.

 

While your correct that BiS wasn't just hitting 306. I'm not sure the average player truly understands that fact whatsoever. Many players usually look at only the item rating when determining what is BiS. I've been told so many times that a player was in BiS when in fact they were wearing basic Onderonian static 306 gear or had set bonuses, and you look at the characters stats and they have 700 accuracy, or 6000 power while doing uncapped content..

 

While many of us that understood that specific mods/enhancements were better for certain content, Not everyone looks that far into detail when it comes to playing games.

 

Edit: Just wait until people notice the weeklies for Monolith, TC, and Queen had no loot boxes for the weekly quest, and didn't even have Story, and Vet mode quest options for them. Single boss Operation spam will definitely not be happening for gear, but it still may happen for tech frags for 300 Augments or for your tech frags for your Legendary items, and upgrading those to 328/330.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Toraak

[JackieKo]

Hi Jackie!

 

On PTS, in order to buy a 328 Legendary Implant we needed to buy TWO 326 of the SAME implant, have one equipped, and ONLY THEN would we get a choice to upgrade to a 328. I didn't bother trying, but I think a friend said the same was true about upgrading to 330 (so 2x 326 -> 328; 2x 328 -> 330, meaning you'd basically need to buy 4 326 to get 2 328 that would THEN allow you to get a single 330)...for each implant bonus you may need.

 

Hi Elssha,

 

That was definitely not intended. Clarifying that players will be required to only have one (1) copy of the Implant, in their inventory or equipment, in order to upgrade.

[mentalmackem]

Hi Elssha,

 

That was definitely not intended. Clarifying that players will be required to only have one (1) copy of the Implant, in their inventory or equipment, in order to upgrade.

 

Will it be fixed by the time 7.0 launches? kinda sounds like you guys weren't aware of it

[Elssha]

Will it be fixed by the time 7.0 launches? kinda sounds like you guys weren't aware of it

I was told by several people that they noted it on the PTS (posted to the PTS forums) when I went to test it out, so I'm assuming Jakie was simply not aware of the specifics .

 

Worst case though, just use the 326 for a bit and wait. The bonus doesn't get better and the stat bump we can live without for a while. Can instead get more bonuses for other specs/classes... so to me at least it's okay even if we have to wait until 7.1 or so.

[JaeOnasi]

Your reasoning unfortunately applies to all expansions.....

Snipped for brevity.

My reply was to Xenaul's claim that the average casual player's performance would improve in 7.0 from 6.0, and my reply was to show why that line of thinking was incorrect based on PTS stats. I wasn't debating any of the points you raised, so I'm not entirely sure where you were going with your post. If casual players don't care about gear, that's fine, but the gear BioWare does offer at the vendors should at least give casual folks who know nothing about gearing a fighting chance at being able to kill overland bosses and champs and do vet FPs and SMOPS in a reasonable time frame. Inadequate and poorly optimized tertiary stats are going to make it that much harder for casual players in 7.0, and it's absolutely going to make it harder for my handicapped guildies and friends.

 

But I don't think that controversies surrounding this change made Bioware any good.

There is no controversy here. Constructive critiques are not controversial. The math is the math, the gear is not optimized at all, and the changes BioWare is making are going to cause howling on the forums and in social media--particularly the weapon outfitter not working yet requiring people to equip non-moddable weapons in order to gear up. I love this game, and I want BioWare to have success because their success means that a 10 year old game continues longer.

 

BioWare wanted testers to give them their opinions--I tested and gave mine. I don't like the changes (see reasoning in my other posts; I'm not repeating them here to save space) and neither do most of my guildmates. I see problems down the road with bringing these changes live, and I explained to BioWare why. That's not controversial. That's being honest, and I've been polite in my critiques. Gushing over these changes like a star-struck fangirl does BioWare a huge disservice and is disingenuous.

 

My point was that spamming such content was trivial and achievable by anyone. Anyone could get bis gear with little effort and it's not how it is supposed to work.

Why do you care how other players gear up? No one is stopping you from using only Nim Ops and taking 2 years to gear up if you personally want to have that challenge. Who said gearing has to work your way, and ONLY your way, for everyone else? Just because _you_ think it should be difficult, time-consuming, and confined to elitist gameplay doesn't mean that's the correct or even desirable way for everyone else. In fact, restricting BIS gearing to elitist levels is an outdated mode of thinking that frankly belongs in the dark ages of 2004 mmo gameplay. Allowing people to get BIS gear through a variety of means allows them to have some more confidence to take on higher-level content. In fact, more people in my guild started doing vet mode ops for the first time in 6.0 _because_ they were able to use flashpoints to get BIS gear before jumping into the harder content. We went from having one vet mode team to multiple vet mode teams and a couple of teams starting to prog hardmare and NiM-difficulty content when they'd previously gone to other NiM-only guilds in 5.0. BioWare has just killed that with the gear changes and removing lockouts.

 

We were not incentiviced to jump on hard mode to get new piece of gear and that is what created this whole spamming TC dilemma and killed pug raiding.

I don't play hard mode to get gear. I play hard mode because I like the challenge of the gameplay itself and the achievement. I use BIS gear as a tool to let me play vet/Nim level to work towards those achievements, not an end in itself. I go to an Operation to complete the operation, not to say "Hooray! RNGesus finally blessed me with that belt after 2 years!!11!11!!" Again, just because you play it to grind gear doesn't mean everyone else wants to play that way. At least in 6.0, we had both options--you could choose to get gear via Ops only if that's what floats your boat, while I could use flashpoints to get gear for Ops to hop into vet/Nim and work on learning the boss mechanics and getting achievements. My option is gone in 7.0, and BioWare is now incentivizing elitist-only gameplay once more.

 

PUG raiding on my server is not dead in the least--it's quite active, and there is no trouble at all finding players in allies chat in game or on discord servers devoted to doing ops/mmfps/harder content. Pug raiding isn't dead--you're just probably not hooked into the right channels to see people grouping up. Some people get legacy-ignored by so many other players that they can't get a group to pop. Hopefully, that isn't your case.

 

If you don't like it, why do you play it in the first place?

To spend time with my friends in game trying to improve my skill and just enjoy the challenges of learning the mechanics and eventually beating a difficult boss or Operation. Grinding gear need not be involved at all to do that. Pro-tip for BioWare: Grinding is not fun for a lot of people.

 

You will need to push yourself, get out of this hammer station comfort zone you have been in, and try to learn, do something different.

I might have taken offense at this if I actually cared enough to do so, because I and many others actually do many different things besides Spammer Station. I just finished a master mode run of Kotfe/Kotet with a guildie, for instance, and BIS gear made some of those boss battles survivable where conquest or flashpoint gear would not have. Thank God we finished those achievements before 7.0 dropped. Suffice it to say that having BIS gear in 6.0 has allowed me and many other guildies to jump into vet/Nim content that we weren't able to do in 5.0. Again, why should I push myself your way just because _you_ say I should? I pay the same monthly sub you do. There's no reason to restrict content that I pay for just to make the elitist 0.00001% happy. Again, if you want to grind gear doing only Ops, you're more than welcome to do so. No one forced you to do TC and Hammer station for gear. Don't expect the rest of us to share your definition of a good time.

 

Play the story, you don't need 330/ 334 gear to compete it!

There's a tremendous amount of narrow-mindedness and arrogance in that statement. Do you know I have a number of handicapped guildmates who depend on BIS gear just to survive overland story content? Being able to get BIS by playing however we wanted to play--which was something BioWare hyped 2 years ago and was a phenomenally positive change--made their ability to game even normal content far more enjoyable for them and even less physically painful for some of them. Just because _you_ don't need 334 gear to do story content doesn't mean other people don't need it. BioWare is now taking BIS gear away from my handicapped friends in 7.0 and making the game less accessible for them. Do you think it's appropriate to make the game less accessible for handicapped people? I sure don't. The elitist attitude of "gear should be for Nim raiders only!" makes it harder for BioWare to understand that not everyone who wants BIS wants it just to go do a NIM raid. There are plenty of other reasons why someone wants BIS gear, and it's not because we want to stand around on fleet and flex. BIS gear does not need to be, and should not be, reserved for elitist Nim raiders only. I am so tired of hearing this narrow-minded and frankly selfish view from raiders that BIS gear should be obtained only through NIM content.

[Desplain]

 

There's a tremendous amount of narrow-mindedness and arrogance in that statement. Do you know I have a number of handicapped guildmates who depend on BIS gear just to survive overland story content? Being able to get BIS by playing however we wanted to play--which was something BioWare hyped 2 years ago and was a phenomenally positive change--made their ability to game even normal content far more enjoyable for them and even less physically painful for some of them. Just because _you_ don't need 334 gear to do story content doesn't mean other people don't need it. BioWare is now taking BIS gear away from my handicapped friends in 7.0 and making the game less accessible for them. Do you think it's appropriate to make the game less accessible for handicapped people? I sure don't. The elitist attitude of "gear should be for Nim raiders only!" makes it harder for BioWare to understand that not everyone who wants BIS wants it just to go do a NIM raid. There are plenty of other reasons why someone wants BIS gear, and it's not because we want to stand around on fleet and flex. BIS gear does not need to be, and should not be, reserved for elitist Nim raiders only. I am so tired of hearing this narrow-minded and frankly selfish view from raiders that BIS gear should be obtained only through NIM content.

 

I completly agree with you about that!

 

I truely believe that elitist thinking shouldn't exist in a game nor in real life.

[Pricia]

I completly agree with you about that!

 

I truely believe that elitist thinking shouldn't exist in a game nor in real life.

 

It still baffles me that there's such thing in a story-driven game that only releases one op every 3 years, to be honest. Also baffles me that elitists still haven't given up on the game after such a long time with the same op content.

 

I used to be in a pretty hardcore raiding guild in another casual MMO (testing raids on the private test server and everything) and we just all pretty much quit when they stopped adding content often enough... Only so many times you can do the same raid before you get bored...

Edited February 3, 2022 by Pricia

[Li-Ming]

I completly agree with you about that!

 

I truely believe that elitist thinking shouldn't exist in a game nor in real life.

 

Simply amazing statement! I would like to add that some players have life too, work, University, family...

[TrixxieTriss]

What I don’t get about the elitist rants is why does it have to be a stat gear grind to satisfy them? Other more successful raid games don’t use gear grinds to satisfy their community, they use exclusive bling items.

To me, the ranting from some of the elitist raiders demanding they only get the best gear and that it be difficult to get d disingenuous because they obviously don’t need the gear to complete the raids themselves. They just don’t want anyone else to have access so they can lord it over people.

But if all they want to do is lord it over people, why does it even need to be stat gear. Why couldn’t the rewards be non stat items they can use in outfitter or special glam looking weapons or mounts or other “non performance enhancing items”.

Other games do this really well and they have much more healthy progressive raiding communities than swtor.

The idea of giving raiders the top stat gear as rewards is an antiquated design. And those raiders arguing for it on the forums with their antagonist posts are just trolling. It tells you a lot about that communities attitudes and why that part of the game is dying.

Edited February 3, 2022 by TrixxieTriss

[arunav]

What I don’t get about the elitist rants is why does it have to be a stat gear grind to satisfy them? Other more successful raid games don’t use gear grinds to satisfy their community, they use exclusive bling items.

To me, the ranting from some of the elitist raiders demanding they only get the best gear and that it be difficult to get us disingenuous because they obviously don’t need the gear to complete the raids themselves. They just don’t want anyone else to have access so they can lord it over people.

But if all they want to do is lord it over people, why does it even need to be stat gear. Why couldn’t the rewards be non stat items they can use in outfitter or special glam looking weapons or mounts or other “non performance enhancing items”.

Other games do this really well and they have much more healthy progressive raiding communities than swtor.

The idea of giving raiders the top stat gear as rewards is an antiquated design. And those raiders arguing for it on the forums with their antagonist posts are just trolling. It tells you a lot about that communities attitudes and why that part of the game is dying.

 

Well, if nice cosmetics drops are added to Ops and not the CM, it would go against how we've generally seen the game operate for many years now, at least on the PVE side. The last boss of Gods had an exclusive mount added, but it's not nearly as sought after as Wings of the Architect (DF last boss drop in NiM), and one could argue because it's not as attractive an item. Same with Corrupter Zero's blade. The decision to include those were from back in 2.x, though, a very different era for SWTOR generally.

 

Ranked PVP has had what some consider nice cosmetic items, so it doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule BW won't add worthwhile cosmetic items from non-CM sources. I certainly agree your suggestion would be preferable.

 

Anyway, some players will always have the attitude you're referring to, unfortunately, even if it is a very dated way of looking at MMO gearing generally, especially in a game like SWTOR where the vast majority of the multiplayer content is 7-10 years old, and plenty of folks just want to get geared expeditiously and play what they enjoy, what they subscribe for, when new tiers are added/after expansions.

 

What's a little surprising to me is the developers at BW agreeing with it. I'd think they would have a broader perspective on who their subscribers are and incorporate incentives into gearing that work well for more than, relatively speaking, a handful of Ops folks (and I'll emphasize a lot of Ops players don't share this attitude, and couldn't care less about lording their item rating over other people, viewing the behaviour as a bit, well, sad, indicative of something potentially being wrong in the player's life).

 

We'll see how this all ends up affecting the game. Maybe it won't be as bad as the loss of players from Galactic Command's inital few months, but I can't imagine a lot of folks won't react poorly to the gearing changes, especially alongside all the others. 5.0's loss of players was basically related to just a gearing change. 7.0 has a lot more changing alongside it.

 

I'll give the new systems a shot in a couple weeks, but I think BW finally found my breaking point. There's a lot of other games out there, not to mention entirely different, more fulfilling hobbies.

Edited February 3, 2022 by arunav

[Desplain]

Well, if nice cosmetics drops are added to Ops and not the CM, it would go against how we've generally seen the game operate for many years now, at least on the PVE side. The last boss of Gods had an exclusive mount added, but it's not nearly as sought after as Wings of the Architect (DF last boss drop in NiM), and one could argue because it's not as attractive an item. Same with Corrupter Zero's blade. The decision to include those were from back in 2.x, though, a very different era for SWTOR generally.

 

Ranked PVP has had what some consider nice cosmetic items, so it doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule BW won't add worthwhile cosmetic items from non-CM sources. I certainly agree your suggestion would be preferable.

 

Anyway, some players will always have the attitude you're referring to, unfortunately, even if it is a very dated way of looking at MMO gearing generally, especially in a game like SWTOR where the vast majority of the multiplayer content is 7-10 years old, and plenty of folks just want to get geared expeditiously and play what they enjoy, what they subscribe for, when new tiers are added/after expansions.

 

What's a little surprising to me is the developers at BW agreeing with it. I'd think they would have a broader perspective on who their subscribers are and incorporate incentives into gearing that work well for more than, relatively speaking, a handful of Ops folks (and I'll emphasize a lot of Ops players don't share this attitude, and couldn't care less about lording their item rating over other people, viewing the behaviour as a bit, well, sad, indicative of something potentially being wrong in the player's life).

 

We'll see how this all ends up affecting the game. Maybe it won't be as bad as the loss of players from Galactic Command's inital few months, but I can't imagine a lot of folks won't react poorly to the gearing changes, especially alongside all the others. 5.0's loss of players was basically related to just a gearing change. 7.0 has a lot more changing alongside it.

 

I'll give the new systems a shot in a couple weeks, but I think BW finally found my breaking point. There's a lot of other games out there, not to mention entirely different, more fulfilling hobbies.

 

Signed!

 

Honestly I don't think that I'll give it a shot, these changes are too much for me.

Some of my guild members will stay and test the changes, but the rest will leave.

[Gibonski]

Snipped for brevity.

My reply was to Xenaul's claim that the average casual player's performance would improve in 7.0 from 6.0, and my reply was to show why that line of thinking was incorrect based on PTS stats. I wasn't debating any of the points you raised, so I'm not entirely sure where you were going with your post. If casual players don't care about gear, that's fine, but the gear BioWare does offer at the vendors should at least give casual folks who know nothing about gearing a fighting chance at being able to kill overland bosses and champs and do vet FPs and SMOPS in a reasonable time frame. Inadequate and poorly optimized tertiary stats are going to make it that much harder for casual players in 7.0, and it's absolutely going to make it harder for my handicapped guildies and friends.

 

 

There is no controversy here. Constructive critiques are not controversial. The math is the math, the gear is not optimized at all, and the changes BioWare is making are going to cause howling on the forums and in social media--particularly the weapon outfitter not working yet requiring people to equip non-moddable weapons in order to gear up. I love this game, and I want BioWare to have success because their success means that a 10 year old game continues longer.

 

BioWare wanted testers to give them their opinions--I tested and gave mine. I don't like the changes (see reasoning in my other posts; I'm not repeating them here to save space) and neither do most of my guildmates. I see problems down the road with bringing these changes live, and I explained to BioWare why. That's not controversial. That's being honest, and I've been polite in my critiques. Gushing over these changes like a star-struck fangirl does BioWare a huge disservice and is disingenuous.

 

 

Why do you care how other players gear up? No one is stopping you from using only Nim Ops and taking 2 years to gear up if you personally want to have that challenge. Who said gearing has to work your way, and ONLY your way, for everyone else? Just because _you_ think it should be difficult, time-consuming, and confined to elitist gameplay doesn't mean that's the correct or even desirable way for everyone else. In fact, restricting BIS gearing to elitist levels is an outdated mode of thinking that frankly belongs in the dark ages of 2004 mmo gameplay. Allowing people to get BIS gear through a variety of means allows them to have some more confidence to take on higher-level content. In fact, more people in my guild started doing vet mode ops for the first time in 6.0 _because_ they were able to use flashpoints to get BIS gear before jumping into the harder content. We went from having one vet mode team to multiple vet mode teams and a couple of teams starting to prog hardmare and NiM-difficulty content when they'd previously gone to other NiM-only guilds in 5.0. BioWare has just killed that with the gear changes and removing lockouts.

 

I don't play hard mode to get gear. I play hard mode because I like the challenge of the gameplay itself and the achievement. I use BIS gear as a tool to let me play vet/Nim level to work towards those achievements, not an end in itself. I go to an Operation to complete the operation, not to say "Hooray! RNGesus finally blessed me with that belt after 2 years!!11!11!!" Again, just because you play it to grind gear doesn't mean everyone else wants to play that way. At least in 6.0, we had both options--you could choose to get gear via Ops only if that's what floats your boat, while I could use flashpoints to get gear for Ops to hop into vet/Nim and work on learning the boss mechanics and getting achievements. My option is gone in 7.0, and BioWare is now incentivizing elitist-only gameplay once more.

 

PUG raiding on my server is not dead in the least--it's quite active, and there is no trouble at all finding players in allies chat in game or on discord servers devoted to doing ops/mmfps/harder content. Pug raiding isn't dead--you're just probably not hooked into the right channels to see people grouping up. Some people get legacy-ignored by so many other players that they can't get a group to pop. Hopefully, that isn't your case.

 

To spend time with my friends in game trying to improve my skill and just enjoy the challenges of learning the mechanics and eventually beating a difficult boss or Operation. Grinding gear need not be involved at all to do that. Pro-tip for BioWare: Grinding is not fun for a lot of people.

 

I might have taken offense at this if I actually cared enough to do so, because I and many others actually do many different things besides Spammer Station. I just finished a master mode run of Kotfe/Kotet with a guildie, for instance, and BIS gear made some of those boss battles survivable where conquest or flashpoint gear would not have. Thank God we finished those achievements before 7.0 dropped. Suffice it to say that having BIS gear in 6.0 has allowed me and many other guildies to jump into vet/Nim content that we weren't able to do in 5.0. Again, why should I push myself your way just because _you_ say I should? I pay the same monthly sub you do. There's no reason to restrict content that I pay for just to make the elitist 0.00001% happy. Again, if you want to grind gear doing only Ops, you're more than welcome to do so. No one forced you to do TC and Hammer station for gear. Don't expect the rest of us to share your definition of a good time.

 

There's a tremendous amount of narrow-mindedness and arrogance in that statement. Do you know I have a number of handicapped guildmates who depend on BIS gear just to survive overland story content? Being able to get BIS by playing however we wanted to play--which was something BioWare hyped 2 years ago and was a phenomenally positive change--made their ability to game even normal content far more enjoyable for them and even less physically painful for some of them. Just because _you_ don't need 334 gear to do story content doesn't mean other people don't need it. BioWare is now taking BIS gear away from my handicapped friends in 7.0 and making the game less accessible for them. Do you think it's appropriate to make the game less accessible for handicapped people? I sure don't. The elitist attitude of "gear should be for Nim raiders only!" makes it harder for BioWare to understand that not everyone who wants BIS wants it just to go do a NIM raid. There are plenty of other reasons why someone wants BIS gear, and it's not because we want to stand around on fleet and flex. BIS gear does not need to be, and should not be, reserved for elitist Nim raiders only. I am so tired of hearing this narrow-minded and frankly selfish view from raiders that BIS gear should be obtained only through NIM content.

 

You are intelligently pushing your narrative not based on the facts. Half of the post on this forums and replies to them are hate, not constructive criticism. You should read up about that first mate. I didn't say your reasoning or post was controversial so don't apply imaginative excuse to go all smart on me. It won't stick.

 

Why do I care how other people gear up? I don't really. But I saw what this method has done, was nothing good. I don't want to repeat myself. People got gear but were still handicapped as you politely and eloquently called them. It was hurtful both to them and whole game. I care how I gear up though. New system will allow me to get satisfaction from killing bosses again. And i dont expect you to understand. I want to do it this way, and I also stated my opinion.

 

 

You mentioned that some people were jumping to harder content from flashpoints. It's going to work exactly the same now, except this time they won't get advantage of using bis from the get go. It didn't kill the raiding, it will be so much better going forward. People who don't raid, won't raid, because it's lava. People who love it will continue to do so and happily talking about it, sharing their thoughts and brining more community members into the fray.

 

I didn't tell you to push yourself. The game will in 7.0. You expect from the game to give you the best rewards because you pay for it? That's very close to pay to win if you ask anyone with a sane mind. Go play mobile games then if you so desire be fed gear after you paid. The audacity...

 

And all the talk about people depending on Bis. They depend on it to do what exactly? They will continue to be like that whether it's BIS or 220 gear. If you believe they are handicapped shouldn't you help them instead of smearing them on public forum?

 

And I am narrow minded? Really? I am stating my opinion based on experience and i know, i am absolutely sure many people think like me. Have you tried other games? Don't look far, look up wow and their sets of gear every tier. The most ******, sick looking piece of gear is the mythic one which apply to very small percentage of players too. But that is how the mmorpg should work. It should create a bit of envy in some players to strive for more. It should make people who raid incentiviced. And you are wrong. Not only nim Raiders will get gear. Stop avoiding facts to build up your bs. You will get gear and if you don't or can't do nim to get mods in the same time, you will wait 3 months and do it then.

 

You just let yourself go at the very end and all this intelligent speech you were trying to push fall apart. Someone did something to you, or you really hate Raiders for some reason. Casual lover Andy, that's what you think you are, while at the same time calling them handicapped in public. You are something else mate.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Gibonski

[Damask_Rose]

What I don’t get about the elitist rants is why does it have to be a stat gear grind to satisfy them? Other more successful raid games don’t use gear grinds to satisfy their community, they use exclusive bling items.

To me, the ranting from some of the elitist raiders demanding they only get the best gear and that it be difficult to get d disingenuous because they obviously don’t need the gear to complete the raids themselves. They just don’t want anyone else to have access so they can lord it over people.

But if all they want to do is lord it over people, why does it even need to be stat gear. Why couldn’t the rewards be non stat items they can use in outfitter or special glam looking weapons or mounts or other “non performance enhancing items”.

Other games do this really well and they have much more healthy progressive raiding communities than swtor.

The idea of giving raiders the top stat gear as rewards is an antiquated design. And those raiders arguing for it on the forums with their antagonist posts are just trolling. It tells you a lot about that communities attitudes and why that part of the game is dying.

 

I have asked raiders many times why all of the exclusive fluff they get, and increased drops of everything else, aren't enough of a motive to do the content they claim to love doing. They always ignore me. I think all of that fluff that they don't care about should be made available to everyone in the form of random drops. If they get exclusive gear, they shouldn't get exclusive fluff. I see no reason they should get both.

 

If they don't want to give up their fluff to get BiS gear, then that gear should stat cap to be exactly the same as other gear based on content. For example, if they are running heroics, their gear should downgrade to be exactly the same as conquest gear so they get no advantage from it. If conquest gear is "good enough" for solo players doing heroics, then it is "good enough" for NiM raiders doing heroics too.

 

I genuinely think many raiders just don't realize how slow and unrewarding a lot of content is, but they also don't want to know either. It's a "let them eat cake" situation. They don't see the privileges they already have, only the one they don't have. (Dxun sets don't count as exclusive gear for some reason even though it has unique graphics too. Maybe because there is a miniscule change of scrubs getting it in Kai's random box of randomness?) Much like they simply don't see why other play styles would even want BiS, because they don't acknowledge that nearly every player wants the 1000th heroic they do to be as fast as possible, and BiS very definitely makes old, worn out content faster.

[Rolodome]

What I don’t get about the elitist rants is why does it have to be a stat gear grind to satisfy them? Other more successful raid games don’t use gear grinds to satisfy their community, they use exclusive bling items.

To me, the ranting from some of the elitist raiders demanding they only get the best gear and that it be difficult to get d disingenuous because they obviously don’t need the gear to complete the raids themselves. They just don’t want anyone else to have access so they can lord it over people.

But if all they want to do is lord it over people, why does it even need to be stat gear. Why couldn’t the rewards be non stat items they can use in outfitter or special glam looking weapons or mounts or other “non performance enhancing items”.

Other games do this really well and they have much more healthy progressive raiding communities than swtor.

The idea of giving raiders the top stat gear as rewards is an antiquated design. And those raiders arguing for it on the forums with their antagonist posts are just trolling. It tells you a lot about that communities attitudes and why that part of the game is dying.

I take it a step further, personally: whether it's stats or shinies, players who want other players to have less so they can feel special... I find it hard to sympathize with them. It's easy for me to sympathize with someone's gameplay desires if it's just a preference they have that can be accommodated among others. It's another thing for the preference itself to be about simulating the feeling of being a rich/superior person in RL and inflicting it on real people in that virtual environment. Cause at that point, it's barely even a simulation, it's just a projection of RL elitism in a form where the consequences of it matter less. I tend to think achievements are more than enough to show off for this type of stuff; it's proof that you did it, to you and others. Shiny stuff and stats both have problems. Stats, I won't go into, I think others explain that well plenty. Shiny stuff because despite the normalization that has happened over the years w/ regards to cosmetics and them being "optional" to convince people that MTX aren't a bad thing, it's clear that for a lot of people, cosmetics are a significant part of their gameplay (I am one of them, I love mixing and matching stuff in games to get a unique and cool look). So when games lock some of the coolest cosmetics behind content I can't or will never seek out to do, that's disappointing because it's less cool stuff I can work with to get enjoyment out of the game. I don't make a big deal out of it and I don't expect it to change any time soon because normalizing exclusive/rare/expensive/etc. cosmetics seems to be a large part of how games make their money now, but I just wanted to mention that perspective.

 

It's frustrating that even in a virtual world, we can't escape the creeping elitism of the world outside it.

[Desplain]

I take it a step further, personally: whether it's stats or shinies, players who want other players to have less so they can feel special... I find it hard to sympathize with them. It's easy for me to sympathize with someone's gameplay desires if it's just a preference they have that can be accommodated among others. It's another thing for the preference itself to be about simulating the feeling of being a rich/superior person in RL and inflicting it on real people in that virtual environment. Cause at that point, it's barely even a simulation, it's just a projection of RL elitism in a form where the consequences of it matter less. I tend to think achievements are more than enough to show off for this type of stuff; it's proof that you did it, to you and others. Shiny stuff and stats both have problems. Stats, I won't go into, I think others explain that well plenty. Shiny stuff because despite the normalization that has happened over the years w/ regards to cosmetics and them being "optional" to convince people that MTX aren't a bad thing, it's clear that for a lot of people, cosmetics are a significant part of their gameplay (I am one of them, I love mixing and matching stuff in games to get a unique and cool look). So when games lock some of the coolest cosmetics behind content I can't or will never seek out to do, that's disappointing because it's less cool stuff I can work with to get enjoyment out of the game. I don't make a big deal out of it and I don't expect it to change any time soon because normalizing exclusive/rare/expensive/etc. cosmetics seems to be a large part of how games make their money now, but I just wanted to mention that perspective.

 

It's frustrating that even in a virtual world, we can't escape the creeping elitism of the world outside it.

 

Signed!

 

Real good statement.

[JaeOnasi]

What the hell, I'll reply.

You are intelligently pushing your narrative not based on the facts. Half of the post on this forums and replies to them are hate, not constructive criticism. You should read up about that first mate. I didn't say your reasoning or post was controversial so don't apply imaginative excuse to go all smart on me. It won't stick.

Since you appeared to be answering me, I assumed you thought my post was controversial. You clarified your point here, so now I understand you more clearly, and thank you for that. I'll certainly concede that others have made comments that are rude or at the very least inelegant.

 

Why do I care how other people gear up? I don't really. But I saw what this method has done, was nothing good. I don't want to repeat myself. People got gear but were still handicapped as you politely and eloquently called them. It was hurtful both to them and whole game.

None of my disabled/handicapped (whatever word you prefer to use) guildmates thought that getting gear more easily in 6.0 was hurtful to them in the least. In fact, I heard repeatedly that they enjoyed the game substantially more with BIS gear. It certainly didn't hurt me or the whole game to obtain BIS easily, as you assert. If you have data to back up your assertion here, I'm happy to see that. Otherwise, I have Starparse proof that obtaining BIS through any method helped my disabled friends (they stayed alive better, were able to play the game longer (which is good for seeing EA cartel market ads and thus bottom line), they experienced less pain playing). That's a pretty damn significant improvement, not "more hurtful" to them as you claim.

 

I care how I gear up though. New system will allow me to get satisfaction from killing bosses again. And i dont expect you to understand. I want to do it this way, and I also stated my opinion.

I understand your point entirely. Your point was clear enough. I don't agree with your point. Your opinion is based solely on what you alone want. My statements are based on factual stats, my experiences professionally and in game, and experiences with hundreds of guildmates over the years--perhaps starting to get into the thousands at this point, I don't know. But a lot, anyway.

So, let me take a moment to clarify my experience in and out of the game, since you made a completely incorrect assumption about my skill level. I generally don't post my resume since I don't honestly care who has better dps, who has more achievements, etc etc etc. I don't think achievements make me better than anyone else, or anyone else better than me as people. Since it's important to you, however:

a. I've played this game since beta, and I'd love to play it for years more--which is why I'm very vocal about the 7.0 changes. I think BioWare risks angering enough players that they'll leave the game after completing the new content, and fewer players mean a lower chance of this game staying viable, which means it closes down sooner.

b. I wrote the consular column for TORWars back at launch until the owner shut down the site because she was contractually required to for her new job at NCSoft to prevent conflict of interest.

c. I've cleared every Op at SM 8m and 16m, nearly all of them at Vet 8m and 16m, and have done some NIM raiding.

d. I main infil shadow/deception assassin well enough to be in the top 25 on the dps leaderboards for those specs on my server.

e. I've gotten just about everything done in SWTOR that can be done in the PVE realm at master level.

f. I can quote theorycrafting numbers by heart at this point and can explain why they're that way in great detail.

g. I took the time to go to the PTS and test out the gear and then compared actual statistics.

g. I work with partially and completely blind people on a regular basis as part of my profession, and I follow Able Gamers, too (GREAT organization, by the way, folks. They help people with all sorts of disabilities be able to get into and enjoy more games).

 

You can call me "Casual lover Andy", which as an apparent insult is mildly amusing, but you're obviously incorrect.

 

You mentioned that some people were jumping to harder content from flashpoints. It's going to work exactly the same now, except this time they won't get advantage of using bis from the get go. It didn't kill the raiding, it will be so much better going forward. People who don't raid, won't raid, because it's lava. People who love it will continue to do so and happily talking about it, sharing their thoughts and brining more community members into the fray.

 

What benefit is there to putting non-elite players and disabled folks at a disadvantage in a story-driven mmo? That's a serious question, not rhetorical. I'd really like to know why you think it's ok to make the game harder for disabled folks so that you and other Nim raiders can have some extra stat points.

 

No, jumping from flashpoints to Ops won't work the same, because people can't trade in flashpoint gear for equivalent Ops gear. It's on a completely different gear track--and that's one of the problems. You can have 326 maxed out for MMFPs, but you can't use that to trade up to 328 Ops gear. You have to start at 320 green crap for Ops, no matter what you have elsewhere. The grind to get to gear that is remotely close to decent is annoyingly long and complex. I've made a spreadsheet just to figure out what gear combos will be best for accuracy (subject to change when 7.0 is live, of course). Pro-tip--if you have to have a spreadsheet to figure out optimal gearing, it's probably still too complex. But I'm a numbers junkie, I actually like that kind of thing, so I deal with it.

 

My actual experience with gear grinding in 5.0 (which is what 7.0 basically is returning too, now improved with even MORE iLvls!!11!!!) was just the opposite of what you _think_it will be in 7.0. The elitists did the grinding for their gear quickly, and then promptly refused to raid with anyone else who wasn't fully geared. That was a significant problem that BioWare was trying to fix and indeed was substantially mitigated with the 6.0 gear changes. That problem will return with 7.0, unfortunately. Elitist raiders have no patience to help newer raiders gear up once a critical mass of NIM raiders has been reached. They'll only raid with other NIM raiders. I can't tell you how many times I was told by guildies that they'd been kicked from a PUG vet mode Ops group because "you don't have enough (then-max) 258 gear". The nim raiders made no offers to help that person get that gear, either, of course.

 

I didn't tell you to push yourself. The game will in 7.0. You expect from the game to give you the best rewards because you pay for it?

No. I'm saying BIS gear should be obtainable no matter where one games--provided someone puts the work into obtaining it in game. NIM raids certainly can and should have special, unique rewards--Brontes wings are a good example of an exclusive reward. Mounts for getting to the top of the leaderboards in PvP are another example--and none of those have anything to do with gear stats.

That's very close to pay to win

Since f2p/preferred can currently get BIS gear without paying, your assertion is incorrect. However, it will be "pay to win" in 7.0 since f2p and preferred won't ever even be able to access BIS gear since that's restricted to NIM ops only, and preferred players can't do Ops at all. F2p and preferred won't be able to switch to the second combat style, either.

 

if you ask anyone with a sane mind. Go play mobile games then if you so desire be fed gear after you paid. The audacity...

And this is exactly the kind of elitist comment that many find offensive. You think it should _only_ be obtained through Ops and that it should be exclusive. You've made no effort to say how that benefits all players, and I've noted it will make it harder for a lot of players. There are any number of other things that NIM raiders can use to flex their achievements for the world to see besides gear. I'm not wasting time on your other obvious ad hominems.

 

And all the talk about people depending on Bis. They depend on it to do what exactly? They will continue to be like that whether it's BIS or 220 gear. If you believe they are handicapped shouldn't you help them instead of smearing them on public forum?

What smear? Show me where that is. I DID help my disabled guildmates. I ran a lot of SMOPS and FPs with them to help them gear up, and then helped them select the correct tactical, gear sets, armorings, mods, enhancements, and left side pieces. I wrote a gear guide for my guild. Every single one of my disabled friends said it was easier to survive with BIS gear over non-BIS gear--there was more endurance so they could survive hits better, and optimized stats helped them kill things faster. Understand that it takes my disabled friends longer to even _see_ puddles of poo on the ground, react to attacks, and my folks who've had strokes or have problems with movement like cerebral palsy take longer to kill things because their APM is substantially lower due to their inabilty to be able to hit keys quickly. Having BIS gave them the max stats which helped them do what you or I could do normally with 270 gear. They had trouble completing some things with "casual gamer" level gear as you might call it. Now do you understand my point? (not being snarky, I'd really like to know if my point is clear to you).

 

And I am narrow minded? Really? I am stating my opinion based on experience and i know, i am absolutely sure many people think like me.

I never said you were narrow-minded. I was very precise with my wording. How many other people think like you? 2? 3? .0001% of the raiding community? I assure you, it's a much smaller percentage than you might think, and a much larger percentage of my guildies and friends have expressed sharing my opinion on gear--including other NIM raiders.

 

Have you tried other games?

Yes. Been gaming since Atari 2600 days. Long live the gray dot in Adventure.

 

Don't look far, look up wow and their sets of gear every tier. The most ******, sick looking piece of gear is the mythic one which apply to very small percentage of players too.

So what? I could care less what's done in WoW. And that "sick looking piece of gear" could be done with a simple skin without affecting any stats.

 

But that is how the mmorpg should work.

A number of other MMOs DON'T use this type of elitist gearing, and they're arguably more successful than SWTOR is at this point, which is sad, because I love this game and want it to be super successful. In any case, your preference is categorically NOT how mmorpgs "should work". It's only how _you_ think they should work, and it's an outdated mode of gearing.

 

It should create a bit of envy in some players to strive for more. It should make people who raid incentiviced.

So, let me get this straight. We should make it harder to gear for others so that you can have the satisfaction of other players...envying you.

I don't care about someone envying me in the least. I care about successfully completing a vet and Nim Ops. And I don't envy other players who've achieved top things. I'm happy that they had success doing something they clearly enjoy. However, there are plenty of other items that can incentivize NIM raiders--mounts, special outfit and weapon skins, minipets, more stronghold decos, etc etc etc. Gear stats, which don't show up anyway unless someone actually knows to inspect your gear, should not be one of those things. I think Brontes wings are far more cool than the fact that your crit might be 2900 instead of 2852.

 

And you are wrong. Not only nim Raiders will get gear.

The max, moddable gear PER BIOWARE is ONLY available in Nim Ops. They've stated "maybe" moddable gear will come at a later time--no timetable whatsoever, and based on long experience with BioWare's definition of "a later time," I'm not holding my breath on that.

 

Stop avoiding facts to build up your bs. You will get gear and if you don't or can't do nim to get mods in the same time, you will wait 3 months and do it then.

Show me the quote where BioWare said moddable gear will be available for anyone besides NIM raiders in 3 months. I'll wait.

In the meantime, raiders will say, "Huh, this gear is crap right now, BioWare said I can get moddable gear in 8 months (or however many months from now BW fixes it)--I'll just skip the CF right now and play another game for 8 months until they fix this mess. Then, I'll hop back in." In the meantime, BioWare has lost the subs of all those people during that time--possibly permanently.

 

You just let yourself go at the very end and all this intelligent speech you were trying to push fall apart. Someone did something to you, or you really hate Raiders for some reason. Casual lover Andy, that's what you think you are, while at the same time calling them handicapped in public. You are something else mate.

Considering that I raid several times a week, all I'll say to this is that this entire paragraph is simply wrong. I don't waste time on ad hominems otherwise.

[Gibonski]

What the hell, I'll reply.

 

Since you appeared to be answering me, I assumed you thought my post was controversial. You clarified your point here, so now I understand you more clearly, and thank you for that. I'll certainly concede that others have made comments that are rude or at the very least inelegant.

 

 

None of my disabled/handicapped (whatever word you prefer to use) guildmates thought that getting gear more easily in 6.0 was hurtful to them in the least. In fact, I heard repeatedly that they enjoyed the game substantially more with BIS gear. It certainly didn't hurt me or the whole game to obtain BIS easily, as you assert. If you have data to back up your assertion here, I'm happy to see that. Otherwise, I have Starparse proof that obtaining BIS through any method helped my disabled friends (they stayed alive better, were able to play the game longer (which is good for seeing EA cartel market ads and thus bottom line), they experienced less pain playing). That's a pretty damn significant improvement, not "more hurtful" to them as you claim.

 

 

I understand your point entirely. Your point was clear enough. I don't agree with your point. Your opinion is based solely on what you alone want. My statements are based on factual stats, my experiences professionally and in game, and experiences with hundreds of guildmates over the years--perhaps starting to get into the thousands at this point, I don't know. But a lot, anyway.

So, let me take a moment to clarify my experience in and out of the game, since you made a completely incorrect assumption about my skill level. I generally don't post my resume since I don't honestly care who has better dps, who has more achievements, etc etc etc. I don't think achievements make me better than anyone else, or anyone else better than me as people. Since it's important to you, however:

a. I've played this game since beta, and I'd love to play it for years more--which is why I'm very vocal about the 7.0 changes. I think BioWare risks angering enough players that they'll leave the game after completing the new content, and fewer players mean a lower chance of this game staying viable, which means it closes down sooner.

b. I wrote the consular column for TORWars back at launch until the owner shut down the site because she was contractually required to for her new job at NCSoft to prevent conflict of interest.

c. I've cleared every Op at SM 8m and 16m, nearly all of them at Vet 8m and 16m, and have done some NIM raiding.

d. I main infil shadow/deception assassin well enough to be in the top 25 on the dps leaderboards for those specs on my server.

e. I've gotten just about everything done in SWTOR that can be done in the PVE realm at master level.

f. I can quote theorycrafting numbers by heart at this point and can explain why they're that way in great detail.

g. I took the time to go to the PTS and test out the gear and then compared actual statistics.

g. I work with partially and completely blind people on a regular basis as part of my profession, and I follow Able Gamers, too (GREAT organization, by the way, folks. They help people with all sorts of disabilities be able to get into and enjoy more games).

 

You can call me "Casual lover Andy", which as an apparent insult is mildly amusing, but you're obviously incorrect.

 

 

 

What benefit is there to putting non-elite players and disabled folks at a disadvantage in a story-driven mmo? That's a serious question, not rhetorical. I'd really like to know why you think it's ok to make the game harder for disabled folks so that you and other Nim raiders can have some extra stat points.

 

No, jumping from flashpoints to Ops won't work the same, because people can't trade in flashpoint gear for equivalent Ops gear. It's on a completely different gear track--and that's one of the problems. You can have 326 maxed out for MMFPs, but you can't use that to trade up to 328 Ops gear. You have to start at 320 green crap for Ops, no matter what you have elsewhere. The grind to get to gear that is remotely close to decent is annoyingly long and complex. I've made a spreadsheet just to figure out what gear combos will be best for accuracy (subject to change when 7.0 is live, of course). Pro-tip--if you have to have a spreadsheet to figure out optimal gearing, it's probably still too complex. But I'm a numbers junkie, I actually like that kind of thing, so I deal with it.

 

My actual experience with gear grinding in 5.0 (which is what 7.0 basically is returning too, now improved with even MORE iLvls!!11!!!) was just the opposite of what you _think_it will be in 7.0. The elitists did the grinding for their gear quickly, and then promptly refused to raid with anyone else who wasn't fully geared. That was a significant problem that BioWare was trying to fix and indeed was substantially mitigated with the 6.0 gear changes. That problem will return with 7.0, unfortunately. Elitist raiders have no patience to help newer raiders gear up once a critical mass of NIM raiders has been reached. They'll only raid with other NIM raiders. I can't tell you how many times I was told by guildies that they'd been kicked from a PUG vet mode Ops group because "you don't have enough (then-max) 258 gear". The nim raiders made no offers to help that person get that gear, either, of course.

 

No. I'm saying BIS gear should be obtainable no matter where one games--provided someone puts the work into obtaining it in game. NIM raids certainly can and should have special, unique rewards--Brontes wings are a good example of an exclusive reward. Mounts for getting to the top of the leaderboards in PvP are another example--and none of those have anything to do with gear stats.

Since f2p/preferred can currently get BIS gear without paying, your assertion is incorrect. However, it will be "pay to win" in 7.0 since f2p and preferred won't ever even be able to access BIS gear since that's restricted to NIM ops only, and preferred players can't do Ops at all. F2p and preferred won't be able to switch to the second combat style, either.

 

And this is exactly the kind of elitist comment that many find offensive. You think it should _only_ be obtained through Ops and that it should be exclusive. You've made no effort to say how that benefits all players, and I've noted it will make it harder for a lot of players. There are any number of other things that NIM raiders can use to flex their achievements for the world to see besides gear. I'm not wasting time on your other obvious ad hominems.

 

What smear? Show me where that is. I DID help my disabled guildmates. I ran a lot of SMOPS and FPs with them to help them gear up, and then helped them select the correct tactical, gear sets, armorings, mods, enhancements, and left side pieces. I wrote a gear guide for my guild. Every single one of my disabled friends said it was easier to survive with BIS gear over non-BIS gear--there was more endurance so they could survive hits better, and optimized stats helped them kill things faster. Understand that it takes my disabled friends longer to even _see_ puddles of poo on the ground, react to attacks, and my folks who've had strokes or have problems with movement like cerebral palsy take longer to kill things because their APM is substantially lower due to their inabilty to be able to hit keys quickly. Having BIS gave them the max stats which helped them do what you or I could do normally with 270 gear. They had trouble completing some things with "casual gamer" level gear as you might call it. Now do you understand my point? (not being snarky, I'd really like to know if my point is clear to you).

 

I never said you were narrow-minded. I was very precise with my wording. How many other people think like you? 2? 3? .0001% of the raiding community? I assure you, it's a much smaller percentage than you might think, and a much larger percentage of my guildies and friends have expressed sharing my opinion on gear--including other NIM raiders.

 

Yes. Been gaming since Atari 2600 days. Long live the gray dot in Adventure.

 

So what? I could care less what's done in WoW. And that "sick looking piece of gear" could be done with a simple skin without affecting any stats.

 

A number of other MMOs DON'T use this type of elitist gearing, and they're arguably more successful than SWTOR is at this point, which is sad, because I love this game and want it to be super successful. In any case, your preference is categorically NOT how mmorpgs "should work". It's only how _you_ think they should work, and it's an outdated mode of gearing.

 

So, let me get this straight. We should make it harder to gear for others so that you can have the satisfaction of other players...envying you.

I don't care about someone envying me in the least. I care about successfully completing a vet and Nim Ops. And I don't envy other players who've achieved top things. I'm happy that they had success doing something they clearly enjoy. However, there are plenty of other items that can incentivize NIM raiders--mounts, special outfit and weapon skins, minipets, more stronghold decos, etc etc etc. Gear stats, which don't show up anyway unless someone actually knows to inspect your gear, should not be one of those things. I think Brontes wings are far more cool than the fact that your crit might be 2900 instead of 2852.

 

The max, moddable gear PER BIOWARE is ONLY available in Nim Ops. They've stated "maybe" moddable gear will come at a later time--no timetable whatsoever, and based on long experience with BioWare's definition of "a later time," I'm not holding my breath on that.

 

Show me the quote where BioWare said moddable gear will be available for anyone besides NIM raiders in 3 months. I'll wait.

In the meantime, raiders will say, "Huh, this gear is crap right now, BioWare said I can get moddable gear in 8 months (or however many months from now BW fixes it)--I'll just skip the CF right now and play another game for 8 months until they fix this mess. Then, I'll hop back in." In the meantime, BioWare has lost the subs of all those people during that time--possibly permanently.

 

Considering that I raid several times a week, all I'll say to this is that this entire paragraph is simply wrong. I don't waste time on ad hominems otherwise.

 

I found this in itemization news post:

 

With this updated flow in mind, let’s expand on what’s known as the gearing ceiling. New and more powerful gear will be released with each new major update, but game balance will remain the same throughout 7.0 patches. Content that may have been too difficult or intimidating at launch will eventually be out-geared, giving players an opportunity to level up to higher difficulties and also learn the mechanics of the content at their own pace. As expansion updates get released, we will also raise the “floor,” or the power of base gear, so new players who happen to join the expansion at a mid-way point aren’t left behind by this power growth.

 

Let’s take a look at what this could look like with example item ratings:

 

Players will start earning gear with a 308-318 item rating from levels 75-79. In 7.0, once a player reaches level 80, the base progression gear rewarded will be item rating 320. Gear obtained via Conquests can be upgraded up to item rating 326. In a future update, the base gear rewarded in that same content would be 322, and the upgrade limit raised to 330. These specifics are subject to change as we go through additional testing and feedback.

 

Nearly all gear that is rewarded and upgraded will be static and non-moddable to allow for a more convenient upgrade path for the player. Comparing stats and upgrading gear will greatly improve and become easier to understand. Players will still be able to use moddable gear, but this type of gear is not required for players to be effective in any content in the game. Access to a moddable gear vendor will be granted at item rating 334, which is the highest possible gear rating attainable in the major game update following 7.0. We plan to provide that additional layer of stat customization to those players who prefer to min/max their characters between major updates.

 

Yes it doesn't say 3 months, you are right here. Maybe I am too optimistic about the release of the next patch which will be 7.1.

 

I didn't call you casual Andy. I said you may appear as one. At the same time you are calliing them handicapped and preaching they will have harder game to play. I didn't put this word there, you did. I didn't call them that. And I may have similar experience to yourself. I raid nim and cleared everything below. But I still go with my less experienced guildmates on runs and try to teach them to gear up better. I recently wrote a guide to get into ops to help push players into that content. And I am not forcing people to do it either. If they jump on board, amazing we will show them the ropes. If they don't , that's also fine. But I disagree with a popular opinion that bis gear helps casuals or players who don't play hard endgame content. This was the system upon release of this game and was modelled after World of Warcraft for sure, as well as other mmos. Gear is being gated behind harder content. After introduction of command system it was demolished and casuals had 5 years, which is half of the game lifespan until now of getting gear their way. Someone observed this and thought it's not working in general and thus this change was born.

 

About this whole envy thing. You said that they should envy me, which is completely not the point. I am not the one who will link my bis gear on imperial fleet, being all elitist about it. I will continue to do my job of getting bis and keeping to my own guild. People will come to us Raiders for advice as it always is the case. And me personally I never turn anyone back just because they have wrong implants or relics.

 

The main point coming from that is that the game was designed like this since the beginning. People were inspecting someone and thinking: what can I do more, better to get these stats, this gear. I was one of those players in the beginning who looked up to the Raiders and wanted just that. Then I discovered that you need to get into raiding branch of the game to actually get it. And the maximum gear obtainable from flashpoints, conquest which is 326, is enough for story and solo players to enjoy the game. Many people shared their feedback on that and it is sufficient.

 

I know the change is hard to process, since Bioware got every one used to this system for so long and now this change will turn everything upside down.

 

I understand that you can't upgrade flashpoint gear in ops, but if you get into ops in pre raid bis, which will be obtainable through every other content you are expected to still complete it people have tested it and it works. At least for now. How it's going to work really we will know after release. If it doesn't and people will scream yet again, they will introduce nerfs for sure. It is nothing new in this genre.

 

My closing thought is to wait until it's released. You go on and be excited about thing you are, and vice versa. There are always be people who spit on casuals and elitist alike. It won't change, you can't make everybody happy. I don't believe the new system will hurt people that much. It will be something to get used to for sure, but in the long run I believe it will be beneficial. Call me a dreamer, whatever, I don't care. That's my point of view and I know people who share it, and it's not 0.001 percent of players, trust me. Look up Reddit, YouTube, discords.