Gearing system 6.0 versus 7.0

[ralphieceaser]

Raiders are not to blame for wanting it. Devs are to blame for making it and for making it this bad.

You arent completely wrong, at the end of the day it is the devs who make those decisions.

 

But for me at least, people who support unjust and unhealthy systems simply because they personally benefit at the expense of others are also part of the issue, I could understand someone who could be self aware and realize they only prefer it due to the personal benefits they gain from it and understand it is wrong, but when some people outright defend it, it shows they are completely unaware and have chosen to believe a wrong and unjust system is "good" and invented reasons to defend it.

If everyone was united in their belief that locking good gear behind X activity is wrong, I believe there would be far fewer devs that would even entertain such outdated design philosophies.

But as you ve seen by this threads, there's definitely a few people who want and defend such design philosophies.

 

or...spend tech frags on those same materials as you can right now!

 

If it were a reasonable amount I would agree.

But 10k for a single RPM or OEM when you need 21 in total we are getting into extremes.

 

I am completely in support of a long grind but even for me, someone who plays a lot and must have had 40-50k fragments the last month, this feels a too long because it would be months just for a single gold augment.

Edited December 7, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[Toraak]

I categorically disagree. There doesn't have to be name-calling, bickering, and rudeness. Raiders have every right to be rewarded for their skill. PvP'ers have every right to be rewarded for their skill. Story Players should be reasonable and progress at a significantly slower rate. The problem with this new system is not the fact that others get great gear faster, but that SM Players are stuck with junk that won't be good enough for the content.

 

By engaging in antagonistic behavior on both sides, nothing can be accomplished.

 

Proof that it won't be good enough for the content? From my testing I had no issues doing heroics, dailies (yes the heroic in BH was more challenging, but still very doable). I didn't test Vet or MM chapters, I can try some of those when the PTS comes back up however.

[JakRoanin]

Proof that it won't be good enough for the content? From my testing I had no issues doing heroics, dailies (yes the heroic in BH was more challenging, but still very doable). I didn't test Vet or MM chapters, I can try some of those when the PTS comes back up however.

 

You're the first player I've seen from the PTS that has said the gear is okay. Now that I have downloaded SWTOR from Steam, I hope to be able to run the PTS and test myself.

[Toraak]

You're the first player I've seen from the PTS that has said the gear is okay. Now that I have downloaded SWTOR from Steam, I hope to be able to run the PTS and test myself.

 

I'm not saying the gear is optimal, but based on the Stat cap on the planets, the gear really doesn't do anything for you if your doing Dailies/heroics. In 318 basic green gear I had no issues doing anything really. You can't just pull massive groups of adds, and need to be more careful, however the dailies/heroics are still easy, with the lone exception of Imperial side Heroic in Black hole, which on a sniper I found to be challenging on a couple of the pulls with 3-4 silver mobs. It was stil very doable however.

 

The only planet I obviously couldn't test the stat cap on was Manaan being the level 80 planet where gear may be more important, but based on what I could try CZ, Yavin, Black hole didn't feel that much different from live, it just took longer, and I had to be a bit more careful to not pull to many at the same time.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Toraak

[JakRoanin]

I it just took longer, and I had to be a bit more careful to not pull to many at the same time.

 

See with my personal set of challenges Cerebral Palsy, chronic fatigue and severe chronic pain. I need to be careful about how long certain activities take. I also need a cushion in case I miss a button or freeze up physically. That's why I hope for gear that will help me.

Edited December 8, 2021 by JakRoanin

[ralphieceaser]

Something that would give a good gauge as to the viability of the gear would be master mode chapters, specifically Kotet chapter 2 boss as a solo DPS.

I have been able to do this as engi sniper a few weeks ago but it definitely took a while, and if tertiaries are as bad as we are lead to believe, it might be a major issue leading to that fight not being possible because gear is locked behind OPS

Edited December 8, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[Toraak]

Something that would give a good gauge as to the viability of the gear would be master mode chapters, specifically Kotet chapter 2 boss as a solo DPS.

I have been able to do this as engi sniper a few weeks ago but it definitely took a while, and if tertiaries are as bad as we are lead to believe, it might be a major issue leading to that fight not being possible because gear is locked behind OPS

 

Tertiary stats were indeed bad for the planetary caps. I'll have to test out some of the chapters on MM when I get a chance. I think I brought help on live when I did Kotet chapter 2 on MM, but that was during 5.x, so I don't know if the balance changed in 6.0

 

Edit: we'll have to see what the stat caps are for those chapters as well. Gear may still not make a difference if the cap is low for all the stats.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Toraak

[Strathkin]

7.0 is a perfect example of how BW "fixes" issues - instead of a simple change to fix what they don't like, they change everything.

 

I mean, I'm glad RNG is gone but... really? My biggest gripe is that it's going to take forever to gear my alts now because I don't think I will get any gear as drops as a soloer and I'll have to upgrade every single piece for every single character from scratch (I have no desire to waste 5 minutes switching gear every time I want to play another character. It's STUPID).

 

They could have made a fantastic loot system by fixing 6.0 but instead gave us a system that nobody wants.

 

I wished they FIXED or TWEAKED 6.0 gearing system too! Also don't like the New System as it! There will be so little 80 Content, and yes extremely PAINFUL to gearing ALTs. People want to see a little more progress each week on all Characters!

 

Wished they IMPROVED 6.0 Gearing, rather than completely replace it! I mean just getting rid of RENOWN will make a HUGE difference in direct Gear.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Strathkin

[Toraak]

I wished they FIXED or TWEAKED 6.0 gearing system too! Also don't like the New System as it! There will be so little 80 Content, and yes extremely PAINFUL to gearing ALTs. People want to see a little more progress each week on all Characters!

 

Wished they IMPROVED 6.0 Gearing, rather than completely replace it! I mean just getting rid of RENOWN will make a HUGE difference in direct Gear.

 

How will the removal of renown affect gearing at all? In 2 years of this current expansion I didn't Deconstruct from the renown system were maybe 10-15 implants, earpieces or relics. Most of the gear that people used was from Tech frags, for the set pieces, Conquest, FP, or Operation crates. Good riddance to 6.0 gearing.

[Eli_Porter]

How will the removal of renown affect gearing at all? In 2 years of this current expansion I didn't Deconstruct from the renown system were maybe 10-15 implants, earpieces or relics. Most of the gear that people used was from Tech frags, for the set pieces, Conquest, FP, or Operation crates. Good riddance to 6.0 gearing.

 

Renown crates gave you easy access to 306 gear you can pass to your alts, instead of having to do the gear grind on every alt you only needed to do it once on your main.

 

Renown gave more value to running every content in the game, I don't see myself and others running SM ops (outside of group finder) when they don't reward tech frags nearly on the same level as before and don't give gear upgrades up to 326 even. That's less people getting into ops in a system that's supposed to get people into ops, how does that work?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Eli_Porter

[Toraak]

Renown crates gave you easy access to 306 gear you can pass to your alts, instead of having to do the gear grind on every alt you only needed to do it once on your main.

 

Renown gave more value to running every content in the game, I don't see myself and others running SM ops (outside of group finder) when they don't reward tech frags nearly on the same level as before and don't give gear upgrades up to 326 even. That's less people getting into ops in a system that's supposed to get people into ops, how does that work?

 

FP's were far better for that then renown ever was. They said most content was balanced around 318. People don't need 326 for sm Ops, and if your doing any other content you'll be getting better then 318 anyway.

[Strathkin]

See with my personal set of challenges Cerebral Palsy, chronic fatigue and severe chronic pain. I need to be careful about how long certain activities take. I also need a cushion in case I miss a button or freeze up physically. That's why I hope for gear that will help me.

 

I think many will miss the 6.0 System, and really wished even if they removed RENOWN; they revised that far more!

 

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I mean I'm trying to be HOPEFUL, yet still a large part of me is concerned! I mean removing 3 former abilities in each Class, to give but 1 back based on Discipline? Should have been 2 based on same criteria!

 

Discipline One: Ability A1 & A3

Discipline Two: Ability A2 & A3

Discipline Three: Ability A1 & A2

 

That doesn't account for loss of Combat Proficiency choice, that makes everyone the same--easier sure, yet the same. Main concern though, is it makes many Class feel slower or less fun to play. They could make it up based on Discipline, awarding a few as Passive abilities of the former 9? They could, yett will they?

 

Still the least they should have done, to REVISE all Weekly Missions at least for VET/MASTER Flashpoints or Operations. Even if it limited the Content to Level 75 - 80 Content, it then focus on RECENT content!

 

♦ Even if 75 level content still drops 306 or < gear, the weekly could have given 1 Level 80 Crate at least.

♦ With Renown we used to get several (10 - 20) unless you were 999, or could switching to ALT--that's gone.

♦ So 4 up to 80 Level Crates based on Item Level is far less; aside from any specific 80 Content you run.

♦ Would limit people from trying to Queue for 55-70 Content, yet be ideal while leveling, or approaching 70.

 

People have 8, 16, possibly far more TOONs they want to progress!

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FP's were far better for that then renown ever was. They said most content was balanced around 318. People don't need 326 for sm Ops, and if your doing any other content you'll be getting better then 318 anyway.

 

Well I think that's a shame if that's the PATH they are going... ...mostly because everyone likes to see Gear progression each week, and especially when people play several Characters! Then consider the Player (above) I quoted, or others like myself who are disabled too! Having slightly better gear is more forgiving!

 

Still I only HOPE they listen to more PTS feedback over the next 5 weeks, and then in the month prior to Feb 15th perhaps revise a few others...

Edited December 8, 2021 by Strathkin

[AngelCath]

There is so much talk about solo players vs raiders while forgetting that a lot of us are something in between.

 

Me and my bf raid, currently no NiM, been quite a while, but we've been there. I try to run some HM once a week for our smallish guild, and with new people, returning people, ungeared people we do have problems clearing some of the basic HMs sometimes. At least now 5-6 of us every time come fully geared and can carry the rest.

This will no longer be a thing, there will be a motley crew of mostly conquest players trying to pull something together and it will not be pretty.

 

Also, being the ones trying to make things work we have to tank, we have to heal, we have to dps, depending on what the others can pull off or refuse to do, so we need gear for all roles.

The casual raiding will suffer, our occasional raiding with the NiM-crowd will be completely out of the question and to be honest I have lost all motivation to keep trying and that will be the death of another small guild. (even though it is barely twitching now at least there are some signs of life)

 

At least when you could get BiS from other activities I could count on most people showing up in decent gear for raid-night. I could get my gear from more casual activities and then jump in with my more dedicated friends if I felt like it.

All this will be gone - and why? Because the outdated notion that some people should have all the best things and the rest of us should just run a heroic and be happy litte story gamers that do not count at all as long as we pay.

 

And outdated it is, no one "needs" BiS, especially not the best players (PvP excluded), but ironically it is the ones with lesser skill that can make the most use of it, where it can actually make a difference regarding what you can manage to do. Yet the best claim it should only be there for them to feel special. Give them bragging stuff sure, I'm not against that, but it should be things that does not change the gaming as gear does.

 

Regardless what you may think of that as a concept it is too late to take it back. Once you let the BiS out so that everyone could have it, going back is not ever going to work. People will feel slighted, and rightly so.

 

And what are we supposed to do? Honest question here. Once the little story we get is over and done with, we have no gearing to do that is worthwhile - what are we supposed to keep playing for?

There will be no incentive, no reward to work for, nothing at all to keep us playing.... so... what on earth are you thinking?

Edited December 8, 2021 by AngelCath

[JakRoanin]

Also, even a solo-centric player like myself likes grouping for World Bosses and heroic 4's! You need good gear for both! The demonization of all types of players needs to STOP.

[Darknestknight]

Having played for several years, firstly through class stories only, then adding pvp with occasional flashpoints, then through to NIM raiding at a much later point of the game but now only play with my friend who has just joined I can (like many) see both sides of the argument here. But what it does seem to come down to is:

 

- Nim players want the best gear for doing the hardest content in the game. Whilst a small section of the NIM raiding community will be able to do the NIM content from the outset in base gear it is nonetheless a small section of the community. Many others are going to require putting in the time and effort to get that higher gear to get clears of those raids and that's ok.

 

- PVP players seem to be getting a lack of customisation in their stat allocations due to caps being below the max tier gear. I'm honestly all for bringing back PVP gear. I know they really wanted to simplify how many gear sets you had etc when they changed it (then they bought out this system of a ridiculous number of sets per class).

 

- Conquest/Solo Players seem to want max level gear for their journeys and it seems from some of these messages to be wanting to be massively overscaled for the content that they are doing (dailies, FP's etc) and that they don't get to do so. I'd like to offer some assurance there. You will be massively overscaled for the content you are doing. If you're looking for the content to be trivialised by the gear then do not fear. That is what will happen in even the lowest tiers of gear, your companion does it for you almost immediately and your level of gear even though below the level of a NIM raiders is going to be more than sufficient for what you are wanting to do. If you simply want power for powers sake and not to do anything productive for it then I'm not sure what to offer you as a consolation that for the first time in quite a while you can't reach max gear in 1 day of grinding. I can only apologise that the sun has sent on that for this expansion as it has often done for other types of players in other expansions.

 

The developers often to switch who gets the best/easiest gearing method in terms of effort vs reward pretty much every expansion. This is just next in a long line of these changes.

 

The one thing I do think would be reasonable to add is the ability to modify the lower tiers of gear rather than having them of static distribution. I've not seen anything saying that they'll be adding that but I think that would be reasonable to add. As for the tiers of gear, NIM raiding should really get the highest tier of gear. There's not a single argument i've seen in these forums that really holds weight against it.

 

People keep saying that WOW did it and everyone is leaving WOW (I kinda think how stale the storytelling got and the massive amounts of bad press they got did an awful lot to make that happen personally) but these are different games, different playerbases and the games aren't anywhere near comparable. SWTOR is in it's own separate bracket. It doesn't have regular content updates (by content I mean more than 2 hours) it doesn't do paid expansions. You get a small expansion (content patch) every 2-3 years that at most will take 5 hours of your time and that is if you take it all slowly and spam basic attack.

 

In the end it all comes down to this. Those same people you see screaming "I'm not resubbing" please feel free to check their post history. You'll find that they always complain in every expansion, always threaten to unsubscribe every expansion and they never do. The people that actually unsub from the game you will not hear from. They just quietly go about the business with no drama and leave the game. Think BW doesn't care about you leaving? It does, it'll have a metric of how many people leave for this expansion. They'll look at it and see that it's pretty much same as normal. People feeling like what they say to BW doesn't matter are generally right because their words hold no meaning to themselves. Scream that you'll unsub every 6 months and never do it you've automatically shown that your word means absolutely nothing. Never promise or threaten something you can't deliver on.

 

Gearing system for 7.0 I much prefer over 6.0. It's my own opinion, I'm not going to be doing NIM anymore because I have other games that fill that niche more fully so I really don't need top tier content to do MM flashpoints, some conquest, pvp and class stories. It's just unnecessary. If people feel like they need the top level of gear for not doing any content then you do you. But try doing the operations to get there and you'll see why that community resists the idea of free gear for everyone.

[JakRoanin]

But try doing the operations to get there and you'll see why that community resists the idea of free gear for everyone.

 

I am against 'free gear' period! But having 300+ gear has helped me play this game more comfortably with the physical challenges of my disability. Please don't put every player who is worried about this new system in the 'lazy' box. There are many reasons to want to have the best gear we can get. That said, I am finally able to DL the PTS and I will be giving feedback.

[Savej]

 

In the end it all comes down to this. Those same people you see screaming "I'm not resubbing" please feel free to check their post history. You'll find that they always complain in every expansion...

 

 

Just a note for you: When a game company releases an expansion with changes that people don't like, players really do leave the game. To an extent there are always some people whining about any change. The complaints for this expansion have far exceeded complaints I have seen for any other expac (SOR got a lot of complaints but those were post launch). If you want to see examples of expansion impacts on sales/sub numbers feel free to look at Wow - we basically have those numbers available.

 

For my part I'm probably going to leave this game over this xpac's changes, at least for awhile (6+ mos). I've never said that before.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Savej

[Darknestknight]

I am against 'free gear' period! But having 300+ gear has helped me play this game more comfortably with the physical challenges of my disability. Please don't put every player who is worried about this new system in the 'lazy' box. There are many reasons to want to have the best gear we can get. That said, I am finally able to DL the PTS and I will be giving feedback.

 

Absolutely understand how a disability would limit you. Not knowing what your disability is I can't offer you any advice in terms of strategies to help you manage or become better. I appreciate gear would help you out in your unique situation but (and I say this with the greatest respect) MMO's and games in general are not catered for people with disability. In all fairness I also couldn't come up with a system where the game was made easier for people with disabilities without that system being abused by the player population.

 

As for the the argument of the people not subbing after xpacs (different persons comment), yes, people stop subbing after xpacs, also before them, during and any time in between. People stop subbing and start subbing all the time. I hear a lot of talk about people not playing anymore because of how "terrible" the xpac is but they still post here day after day, most of them will still post here after the xpac. Will this xpac lead to some players leaving? Sure, just like every single one before it. As for this mass exodus being alluded to. It's all just guesswork, rumour and bravado until they leave and we no longer see them on the forums or in game. I would happily wager some credits that 90% of the people complaining that they'll leave the game (for probably the 4th expansion in a row) will still be here after the expansion. Whether the 10% that do leave is replaced by a greater number joining/re-joining remains to be seen.

 

The real rub of the issue is that what drives more people away, more than gearing, raiding, pvp etc is the sheer lack of content. If you're a new player, great! Loads to do. If you've played the game a year, chances are you could have done all the content you wanted to do already. There is not enough new content, nor will there ever be. The team is not big enough and there is not enough investment by EA (this is a guess work, but if the dev's are getting a huge amount more money than they used to for the game, where else is it going?) so this game gets minimal new things every couple of years. People complain about gearing or XYZ and the wheel keeps on spinning.

[JakRoanin]

Absolutely understand how a disability would limit you. Not knowing what your disability is I can't offer you any advice in terms of strategies to help you manage or become better. I appreciate gear would help you out in your unique situation but (and I say this with the greatest respect) MMO's and games in general are not catered for people with disability. In all fairness I also couldn't come up with a system where the game was made easier for people with disabilities without that system being abused by the player population.

 

First, let me say I appreciate your points. I realize without context the point 'I'm disabled' doesn't really add much to the discussion. Second, let me be clear that I do not advocate any system where abuse would be tolerated in any way. Let me give you some background into my personal experiences and keep in mind that these are specific to me and not the entire scope of experiences by people with similar problems.

 

I have Cerebral Palsy, chronic fatigue, and severe chronic pain issues. Cerebral Palsy is caused by a stroke suffered in the womb, during delivery, or very shortly after birth. In my case I probably had mine shortly before my mother went into labor or during. My brain doesn't send the right signals to my motor control causing among other things... Muscle Spasms, lock-ups, and zero hand-eye coordination. Obviously I do not drive, LOL!

 

How does this effect SWTOR? For me, it means SM OPs are too fast, too chaotic, and too much strain on my hands. I have an amazing guild and I tried to do it, but my hands locked up and the pain became so bad I nearly broke down in tears. Something I assure you doesn't happen often, because pain is a default setting in my life.

 

On a very rare good day I can group for a VET FP but, these can be utterly exhausting.

 

In general even the easiest content can be just plain tiring.

 

The 300+ gear helps me in the following ways:

 

1. If I miss a key (often) I can regroup.

 

2. if my hands Lock Up I can have an extra minute before dying.

 

3. Basic content goes quicker so I can play more and longer.

[Darknestknight]

First, let me say I appreciate your points. I realize without context the point 'I'm disabled' doesn't really add much to the discussion. Second, let me be clear that I do not advocate any system where abuse would be tolerated in any way. Let me give you some background into my personal experiences and keep in mind that these are specific to me and not the entire scope of experiences by people with similar problems.

 

I have Cerebral Palsy, chronic fatigue, and severe chronic pain issues. Cerebral Palsy is caused by a stroke suffered in the womb, during delivery, or very shortly after birth. In my case I probably had mine shortly before my mother went into labor or during. My brain doesn't send the right signals to my motor control causing among other things... Muscle Spasms, lock-ups, and zero hand-eye coordination. Obviously I do not drive, LOL!

 

How does this effect SWTOR? For me, it means SM OPs are too fast, too chaotic, and too much strain on my hands. I have an amazing guild and I tried to do it, but my hands locked up and the pain became so bad I nearly broke down in tears. Something I assure you doesn't happen often, because pain is a default setting in my life.

 

On a very rare good day I can group for a VET FP but, these can be utterly exhausting.

 

In general even the easiest content can be just plain tiring.

 

The 300+ gear helps me in the following ways:

 

1. If I miss a key (often) I can regroup.

 

2. if my hands Lock Up I can have an extra minute before dying.

 

3. Basic content goes quicker so I can play more and longer.

 

 

Firstly, I really appreciate you sharing and providing context. Having worked in the care industry for several years supporting people with precisely these types of problems I can offer my sympathies. In suggestions around content. Taking your time in SM ops may be the key, I know you may not enjoy being carried through them if you have a flare up but it'll let you see the operations at least if you wanted? I appreciate in your unique circumstance the gear is a helpful cushion as it were. It may still be depending on the gear in relation to the content you play, we won't know until launch.

[Gilrenna]

I just finished getting 306 gear on all 14 of my 75 characters. Now with the update delay, I can enjoy having it for a while longer. I'm going to miss the ease and options with which I did this. The new gearing system makes me want to just ignore it all and keep my current 306 gear. The new stuff sounds like complete crap.

 

And I don't want to have to do operations to get gear again. I mean, I did a lot of story ops for this gear just because it was fast and I like ops. But I really prefer to have options. And I have no problem with solo players having the same gear as me regardless of how I got it. Other players having the same gear as me doesn't take anything away from the satisfaction I get from having it, too.

[JakRoanin]

Firstly, I appreciate in your unique circumstance the gear is a helpful cushion as it were. It may still be depending on the gear in relation to the content you play, we won't know until launch.

 

Yes a cushion is exactly how it feels, and I LOVE IT. I am Downloading the PTS but it will take two days because of my crappy internet. I also would be remiss if I didn't mention that even SM FPs can be a terrible slog al la the SoV when it first launched base gear didn't cut it! I'm terrified the new FP will be more of the same.

Edited December 9, 2021 by JakRoanin

[kirorx]

. And I have no problem with solo players having the same gear as me regardless of how I got it. Other players having the same gear as me doesn't take anything away from the satisfaction I get from having it, too.

 

My opinion as well. Its a game and should be fun for everyone.

[miscnine]

JakRoannin I've seen your posts. If you are on the Satele Shan server, we have a guild, The Elders, both Imp and Pub, for over forty (both physical and mental age) where we are all safe and play at our own speed. Every Friday we have a fun/training ops run. We don't care if you're uber geared, we don't care if you know every fight, we DO care if you have fun and feel safe and protected in our group. We also do fp's, group missions, goofing around and solo'ing content when we feel like it. In an op if we need to wait for a guildmate to catch up, we wait, no questions asked. If you need a home, call us. We are here.

[JakRoanin]

JakRoannin I've seen your posts. If you are on the Satele Shan server, we have a guild, The Elders, both Imp and Pub, for over forty (both physical and mental age) where we are all safe and play at our own speed. Every Friday we have a fun/training ops run. We don't care if you're uber geared, we don't care if you know every fight, we DO care if you have fun and feel safe and protected in our group. We also do fp's, group missions, goofing around and solo'ing content when we feel like it. In an op if we need to wait for a guildmate to catch up, we wait, no questions asked. If you need a home, call us. We are here.

 

I'm on Star Forge and very happy in my guilds for now. I just don't think I can handle double-legacies right now. But thanks for your kindness!