MystyqeofXev Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Proof? Links? Which private server? Selling carries isn’t the norm (we could get into inflation and busted economy but meh). Progging and raiding with buds is the norm. Wait for it..... Sale Runs These are not possible by a majority of NiM raiders, hence the sheer cost. THERE IT IS! Sometimes the irony writes itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rion_Starkiller Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) Wait for it.... THERE IT IS! Sometimes the irony writes itself. ELI5, what are you saying? Do you think the end goal is to do sale runs? Hell no Edited December 6, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MystyqeofXev Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 ELI5, what are you saying? Do you think the end goal is to do sale runs? Hell no No, but thank you for admitting they exist, thus confirming my statement, and well, tacitly admitting you were either lying, don't know what you're talking about, or are taking your experience(s) and applying them to all NiM raiders. White flag accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwarzchild Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) Wait for it..... THERE IT IS! Sometimes the irony writes itself. So let me get this straight: Nightmare raiding crowd gets together, joins super secret discord server of the super famous Sir Chadwich of Boseman. The developers asked us, the nightmare raiding crowd, if their 6.0 gearing was ok for 7.0 We said in unison at the tops of our lungs "No sirs and Madams! We must throw that system out in full! It does not allow us the ability to feel special! We also score lower on the entitlement index which as nightmare raiders we simply can not have! We demand a private gear path or else we shall leave! And lastly good sirs and madams! We will no longer be able to make any credits in this game for we shant be able to prey upon the weak and overly interested parties who seek the few of us out to buy an achievement or mount run! Our way of life must be preserved! We also require 4 barrels of ale for our drunken shenanigan's! Now let us come to an accord and sing the song of the nigtmare raiding people! <commence satanic devil fire dance>" Is this what you think is reality? Edited December 6, 2021 by Shwarzchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rion_Starkiller Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) No, but thank you for admitting they exist, thus confirming my statement, and well, tacitly admitting you were either lying, don't know what you're talking about, or are taking your experience(s) and applying them to all NiM raiders. White flag accepted. I think your only purpose here is to make sweeping generalizations about a community of people you know little about, nor care to exert effort to understand. In the real world, they call that something. I’ll let you fill in the blank. thus confirming my statement Which statement? and well, tacitly admitting you were either lying, don't know what you're talking about, or are taking your experience(s) and applying them to all NiM raiders. Huh? How so? Explain Pretty sure I know more about a community I am a member of, than a random guy whose first post on the forums was in August. Welcome to SWTOR btw. Normally people wait a couple years to start complaining on the forums, but you do you bud. Edited December 6, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) <sigh> Look boiling this down to an "us" vs. "them" is pointless, counterproductive, and immature. Story players aren't really mad about the numbers. What the majority of us are mad about is we can't customize our gear to our unique needs and are stuck with bantha crap with no hope of any better in quality. SM Players aren't saying that NiM Ops should not get rewarded for their efforts. We simply want the opportunity to get there, doing the content we are comfortable with. Edited December 6, 2021 by JakRoanin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rion_Starkiller Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I'm sorry but this sort of response trivializes the horrific reality of child sexual abuse and has no place in a civilized discussion of any kind. There’s little civilized discussion here, but I’ve edited my post nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessShAmy Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Being able to play anything you want and still get full set bonuses and best in slot gear was amazing. Casual players could enjoy powering up their characters and if they suddenly decided to play operations, they weren't gatekept by bad gear and could use the over levelled gear to get a head-start. Yes! I always try to gear one or two of my favorite toons as best as I can. I am a casual player in that I don't do much end game content. However, I will jump into story mode operations at times. Terror From Beyond is my absolute favorite operation to do on my Sage healer and I rarely say no to doing it. I've done operations that I don't like at all just so that I can play with my friends. But I wouldn't feel comfortable doing ANY end game content if my gear was crap. Bioware: Please stop trying to tell me how to play the game or force me to play content that I don't like or I suck at. For my main Commando I would have had to PvP for the Concentrated Fire set bonus gear in 6.0. I was not going to torture myself so I bought the gear from the Supply Vendor on fleet. I've been a subscriber since January 2013 and never dropped my subscription when I couldn't play for a few months. Just focus on making new and fun content for all players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 There’s little civilized discussion here, but I’ve edited my post nonetheless. Thank you. I agree things have gotten out-of-hand, but bringing up RL issues such as child abuse into it does more harm than good. I appreciate your action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli_Porter Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) Cosmetic Once I have it, do you think I want it on all my toons? Lol no. Certain decos used to be locked behind NiM. Imagine the rage if they did that again. Titles Once I have it once, do you think I need it on all my toons? Achievements These are not repeatable. One and done. You're not gonna get every title, cosmetic, and achievement for an op the first time you clear it. Hence you have incentives to repeat it. OEM 12.5% chance per boss to collect one OEM that sells for a paltry 40 million. I can think of faster ways to make credits. For people who can clear NiMs in a a single session it's quite good. Sale Runs These are not possible by a majority of NiM raiders, hence the sheer cost. 10 billion for Brontes Wings of the Architect lol Yet it's something to aspire to, something to work towards by... Repeating the same op. Edited December 6, 2021 by Eli_Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rion_Starkiller Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) You're not gonna get every title, cosmetic, and achievement for an op the first time you clear it. Hence you have incentives to repeat it. So how many times is that? There are 7 nim operations. And once I get X thing, what is my incentive to repeat? There are no class/role/spec cheevos (which i totally advocate btw) For people who can clear NiMs in a a single session it's quite good. As I said, there are many better ways to make money in this game. AFAIK, nobody is out there farming OEM's. Yet it's something to aspire to, something to work towards by... Repeating the same op. I should aspire to sales runs? No thanks. Edited December 6, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli_Porter Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 So how many times is that? There are 7 nim operations. And once I get X thing, what is my incentive to repeat? There are no class/role/spec cheevos (which i totally advocate btw) Depends on your luck. You may also wanna help your friend who helped you get the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphieceaser Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) <sigh> Look boiling this down to an "us" vs. "them" is pointless, counterproductive, and immature. It is fundamentally, an US vs them problem. By pandering to one side, you are taking away from the other, even if it is not truly the case when raiders dont get special treatment like at the moment OPS stopped giving the best gear, they perceive it as casuals taking away their special treatment which they unjustifiably believe they deserve. You cannot pander to both groups at once, WoW tried that and failed, and chose to pander to the hardcore crowd hence now they are stuck in design hell because they cannot make any casual content rewarding to attract casuals because they know if they do their raidloggers will complain about how they are "forced" to do casual content for power rewards. So you can see them flailing and trying to create outfit and mount rewards but that does not keep the casual crowd because they forget this is an mmorpg and people enjoy power progression, and there is no point in power progression if you know another group has 30 ilvls above your max available gear reward and that is unattainable for you. Those two sides have always been opposite and the only real solution would be a common currency to buy max ilvl gear with weekly cap that can be farmed via all forms of content, so technically anyone can farm it by doing content they enjoy instead of doing content they dont enjoy. But even in that case hardcore crowd will complain because they dont get treated special and have unfair gear advantages so again, you can never satisfy both groups. Edited December 6, 2021 by ralphieceaser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 It is fundamentally, an US vs them problem. I categorically disagree. There doesn't have to be name-calling, bickering, and rudeness. Raiders have every right to be rewarded for their skill. PvP'ers have every right to be rewarded for their skill. Story Players should be reasonable and progress at a significantly slower rate. The problem with this new system is not the fact that others get great gear faster, but that SM Players are stuck with junk that won't be good enough for the content. By engaging in antagonistic behavior on both sides, nothing can be accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphieceaser Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) I categorically disagree. There doesn't have to be name-calling, bickering, and rudeness. Raiders have every right to be rewarded for their skill. PvP'ers have every right to be rewarded for their skill. Story Players should be reasonable and progress at a significantly slower rate. The problem with this new system is not the fact that others get great gear faster, but that SM Players are stuck with junk that won't be good enough for the content. By engaging in antagonistic behavior on both sides, nothing can be accomplished. But that is the problem, the very system you just described absolutely sounds great and fair, I agree that through easier content progress should be slower but not capped. Yet even with this system, that sounds very fair, many raiders feel they are losing their special treatment and dont like it, they dont want what you suggest because they dont like the idea that you get to have the same gear rating as them! When OPS stopped giving the best gear raiders complained because they no longer received special treatement and unfair gear advantages, in 7.0 with the gearing changes the people including you have made very reasonable complaints about how gearing works, yet many raiders in these threads came here to defend this unfair and unjust gearing system. Because as i explained somewhere, the privileged can see fairness as unjust because they lose their benefits they had been unfairly given. I would understand your point if raiders agreed with what you suggested it or didnt care, but as you ve seen by these threads they consistently demand special treatment and to have better gear than everyone else. WoW devs are in a similar if not worse spot, they chose to focus on raiders, they learned that raiders complained and hate doing casual content so they listened to raiders and gutted all forms of casual gear rewards, the best gear you can get in wow as a solo casual is literally worthless trash pieces that are 30 ilvls below max available ilvl, and that is also after a huge solo grind. They understand if they give casuals decent rewards like you suggest, the raiders will complain because they ll feel "forced" to do casual content, so instead they gut casual rewards so casuals complain that they dont have power progression and mounts and mogs arent enough to keep them playing. So by witnessing that situation you should realize there is no middle ground, giving something to one side makes the other mad, there is no win win situation. At some point you have to see in some situations there truly isnt a middle ground, especially when one side believes they should have better rewards than everyone else, you cannot argue with that, it is an emotional belief created through years of privilege and it being the norm, in their minds having gear that is better than everyone else's is the norm, the status quo, this unjust system is what they consider correct and right and they see your suggested system as unfair and wrong. Hence why I ve chosen to always support the casual side, because the casual side never demanded special treatment, all it ever ask is EQUAL TREATMENT so EVERYONE can have access to max gear rating by doing content they enjoy, slowly through easier methods and faster through harder methods, but they still have access to that max gear rating instead of being locked away. That is the reasonable side I chose to support because it benefits everyone, the only people who dont benefit are few specific raiders who think not receiving special treatment in the form of better gear than everyone else is terrible, and that way of thinking is not only wrong, it is unhealthy hence why you should never pander to such groups. Edited December 7, 2021 by ralphieceaser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oslek Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) I categorically disagree. There doesn't have to be name-calling, bickering, and rudeness. Raiders have every right to be rewarded for their skill. PvP'ers have every right to be rewarded for their skill. Story Players should be reasonable and progress at a significantly slower rate. The problem with this new system is not the fact that others get great gear faster, but that SM Players are stuck with junk that won't be good enough for the content. By engaging in antagonistic behavior on both sides, nothing can be accomplished. I agree, but I see this problem in every MMO I play. Some players just take these games WAY too seriously and before you know it, it's a blathering hate fest with each side ignoring the other while pushing their opinions as facts. It's even more hilarious when you realize that NOTHING we say here matters. No dev is going to read what is written and do a complete 180 from what has been planned for months. The expansion is going to release regardless . But some people think these forums are their own personal soap box and truly believe that if they just bring one more person to their side or smack down their personal enemy, somehow they'll get their way. It doesn't work like that. I don't mind a nice healthy discussion, but when my points keep getting ignored and the only retort is the same regurgitated nonsense over and over again, I simply put the person on ignore and carry on. If I wanted to get engaged in a hate fest, I'd turn on FOX or MSNBC Edited December 7, 2021 by oslek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 I realize that the gearing system releasing in 7.0 is beyond hope for this year. But there will be 7.1 etc. and maybe they'll alter things to be better. I do think Ms. Ko, is keeping an eye out, and if we're all reasonable there's no reason compromises can't be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MystyqeofXev Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 I realize that the gearing system releasing in 7.0 is beyond hope for this year. But there will be 7.1 etc. and maybe they'll alter things to be better. I do think Ms. Ko, is keeping an eye out, and if we're all reasonable there's no reason compromises can't be made. The only metric they value is $. These issues have been brought up here, and the PTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Well we can be sure of one thing, They don'r want to lose money so they have to do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KovaGilrissian Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 My god, is it so hard to realize the basics of the compulsion loop? There is a reason why ALL of the MMORPGs are following it, and it has nothing to do with raiders - it's all about getting the highest neurochemical reward. Anticipation->Action->Reward. And SWTOR is no exception to it: the game has essentially 3 difficulty modes: story, hard, nightmare. The problem is that there is only one type of content that has the highest difficulty - ops. Thus only one type of person is eligible for the highest kind of reward - raider. Story mode ops award you the first tier of the current end game gear so that you could progress to hard mode. By progressing harder difficulty ops you get even better gear so that you could take on the highest difficulty. Completion of each cycle award you that pesky dopamine. And it's exactly how it should be: if you don't bother spending countless hours wiping on the hardest content in the game - why on Earth should you get the best gear for no reason? Yeah I agree.. best stuff should not be handed to everyone, best skilled player should get it, that's it; otherwise where is the point ? just like PVP titles "Champion" & "Elite Warlord", why should people who don't play PVP and don't meet the requirements (which is 50 valor and 100 valor in this case) should get those titles ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliushorst Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 No dev is going to read what is written and do a complete 180 from what has been planned for months. The expansion is going to release regardless. Complaining about Galactic Command worked and we got token vendors so I would say it's not entirely hopeless. It is fundamentally, an US vs them problem. Raiders are not to blame for wanting it. Devs are to blame for making it and for making it this bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MystyqeofXev Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 I. No dev is going to read what is written and do a complete 180 from what has been planned for months. Oh, if enough people unsub, they'll "listen". (See WoW + WoD + Flying) I say a healthy compromise is to put the best gear behind crafting. There. Now everyone can get top-end gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Oh, if enough people unsub, they'll "listen". (See WoW + WoD + Flying) I say a healthy compromise is to put the best gear behind crafting. There. Now everyone can get top-end gear. Except if you can't get the Materials without raiding or ranked PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwarzchild Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Except if you can't get the Materials without raiding or ranked PvP. or...spend tech frags on those same materials as you can right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 or...spend tech frags on those same materials as you can right now! I'm working on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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