Jedi Guardian on the PTS!

[motomag]

Where is the BioWare response to these sentiments ?

 

Even a cursory glance through the comments here must surely make even the most narrow minded developer stop and say "I think we got this one wrong guys - let's scrap this idea and not upset our player base" like surely.... right ?

[LeoAugustina]

Hello sorry for my english I'm french. I come here from World of Warcraft, a game that I absolutely loved during more than 8 years especially thanks to my warrior class gameplay. Suddenly devs did a sort of pruning, they removed skills and abilities and make them to be a choice. They butcher my class to the ground, make it fell boring and slow. I never play it again and leave World of Warcraft for ever since. And many players were like me.

I played SWTOR shortly after and love how complete the gameplay was.

Pruning is a complete garbage and ruin everything. Take it back while there is still time.

 

I'm shocked, this cant be happen AGAIN.

[khamseen_air]

Where is the BioWare response to these sentiments ?

 

Even a cursory glance through the comments here must surely make even the most narrow minded developer stop and say "I think we got this one wrong guys - let's scrap this idea and not upset our player base" like surely.... right ?

 

Pretty sure they intentionally released it when they did so no one would actually have to read any of the feedback threads since it's the weekend.

Edited July 11, 2021 by khamseen_air

[Andrewkuhn]

hi i just played the jedi guardian as a tank or defense but it just does not feel like the tank i know, it simpler to fight bad guys but with too much time to wait for things to cool down even though you use the sabre slash i could use all the time as long as i had focus points up, but here i can i only use it twice and then it needs to cool down, i was hoping for more blade work as that what knight really is it not like the sage where they understand the force to move things pull and push or use lightning with knight and warrior is basically more on sword play and less on the actually force. i was hoping you could jump around or flip and get them from behind up it does have works to great class,

i especially like that you can heal in the middle of the fight that is something which you cant do with knight unless you have a companion then you are stuck with guys beating up and dying slowly.

what i find is what not there when it first came out about combat styles i thought i could take an existing class and add something with more choices to make the gameplay more me and less like others but it is not what has been done it has been prune into another class all together, i liked playing the guardian but not like this or give like other jedi games where you assign point to a force ability's or style like knights of the old republic. i know you more classes but for those that can use the force let the pick and choose or how about the sage and sorcerer enjoy all the force abilities and less on blade work. give us more of a choice on how we want to play and what sort of character we want to create

Edited July 11, 2021 by Andrewkuhn

[Wilsu_Addar]

Removing abilities entirely is the single worst idea that could be proposed right now. It will result in a massive exodus of current players.

 

If you want to COMBINE abilities to reduce button bloat? Fine, but it needs to be done with a scalpel, not a hammer. For example, if you wanted to get rid of the Power Tech ability Shatter Slug:

 

I.E. "When Flame Sweep hits 3 or more targets, it causes your next Rail Shot to fire off a Shatter Slug, dealing X-Y damage to 8 enemies within 8 yards of the target."

 

That's a way you can bake an ability into something that already exists and reduce the number of buttons. Simply removing abilities, cooldowns, etc. is not smart and not fun.

[xDiGgAx]

I’ve been playing this game since it was released. This is not a good idea! Please don’t take away our classes! We don’t want to have to do without the rota's we have learned to love over almost a decade. An appeal to you – Please don’t take away our classes! PLEASE!

[TrixxieTriss]

Where is the BioWare response to these sentiments ?

 

Even a cursory glance through the comments here must surely make even the most narrow minded developer stop and say "I think we got this one wrong guys - let's scrap this idea and not upset our player base" like surely.... right ?

 

It’s the weekend. You’ll have to wait till at least Monday or Tuesday for a possible response.

[SpikesShayGrass]

I haven’t posted on the forums in years, but I would be remiss if I didn’t give my thoughts here. I believe that what is being proposed for the switch from the current system to combat styles will be the worst decision in this game’s history.

 

I’ve played off and on since launch, so I was there to see the transition between skill trees and class disciplines; and, even though I enjoyed skill trees, the class discipline system helped make advanced classes more accessible for all players, while keeping each class unique and allowing for choice through the utilities system (all good things).

 

I’m assuming the problem that combat styles is trying to address is the greater number of abilities each class has now as compared to launch. While this may be a somewhat legitimate issue, it seems as though in the process each advanced class will be absolutely gutted with the removal of abilities or by requiring players to choose from key abilities that make each class unique. I’m okay with removing lesser used abilities or combining some as others have creatively suggested for the sake of simplicity, but what is being proposed is not a good solution.

 

For me personally, I was excited for the new operation and getting friends back together before the expansion to run through old content, but that excitement has kind of just left especially since I main a jugg tank.

 

Will I sub to see these changes if they go through this holiday? Maybe. Will it be the last time if I do? Unfortunately, yes. Having a trooper dual wield pistols or a bounty hunter with a sniper isn’t worth it if what makes these classes unique and complex goes down the drain. Please rethink this.

[Gray]

When I first heard about Legacy of the Sith, I was hyped. The more I find out about the truth of Combat Styles however, the more "Sith" starts to sound like an anagram.

 

No, I dont want to play Legacy of the S h i t.

 

Sure I don't know the whole picture yet but I'm already concerned about ur first draw on this painting.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Gray

[LordSitho]

Please do NOT do this! If this goes through, it's going to be the worst thing you've ever done to this game!

 

Please do NOT do this! If this goes through, it's going to be the worst thing you've ever done to this game!

 

Please do NOT do this! If this goes through, it's going to be the worst thing you've ever done to this game!

 

Please do NOT do this! If this goes through, it's going to be the worst thing you've ever done to this game!

 

WE the PLAYERS have NOT asked for removal of abilities.

[Ejied]

Why is this junk on PTS? There's nothing to test. Complete one build then publish it to PST. All this did was piss off the player base.

[HKtheindomitable]

I want to express that I don't entirely understand the purpose of the presets. I get that it's to give examples of setups, or choices, but I don't understand the purpose beyond that. I thought the purpose of this phase was to get a start on tetsing the Knight and make choices while leveling. We expected to level and choose as a Guardian, not have preset choices to test. Said that, when we read:

We want to give you all first impressions into what customization will look like, but please keep in mind the following to set expectations for this round of PTS:

 

[*]This is super high level and not a deep dive (that will come later!).

we expect what was talked about in the livestream/stream notes. So this preset thing is not going over well. Also, what does that first bullet point mean? "This is super high level and not a deep dive." I feel like I'm missing something important in understanding that.

 

It probably would have been a good idea to get some information out to the content creators like SWTORISTA and SWTORCENTRAL ahead of time so they could give an explanation of what was coming. Still would be a good idea.

[Locxin]

TLDR, please do not go through with this change. The only reason Guardians would keep their identity and "feel" like a Guardian, is because they have lightsabers and a couple of the same abilities as before. These radical redesigns of classes and disciplines are not acknowledging the majority of players. The player base wants to play an MMO with a treasure trove of abilities at their disposal, not a "mobile game" feel with cookie-cutter, simplistic design. Condensing abilities or passives in order to streamline can be done in a much more constructive, effective manner.

----

While I can understand the developers trying to make their job easier in regards to balancing and design, this will infuriate a substantial portion of the player base. Speaking for myself, I play SWTOR for the combat, flashpoints, operations, and being able to immerse oneself in the design and theme of each class/discipline. Each class and specialization has its own identity and feel, has its own style with how it approaches situations in combat. Some bring a few things to the table, some bring others, and I feel that is what makes each class desirable in their own way. It's fun and enjoyable to be able to take the pieces of the puzzle and fit them together in order to conquer each unique challenge presented.

----

What these changes would do would create a shell, a husk of the former class, and diminish choice and options to the point of everyone having the same tools, bells, and whistles. Everyone playing a class using the same eight abilities as everyone else is not engaging play style, it's spoon-feeding a dumbed-down version of the game so that the minority of players in the audience would be able to get by. The only "feel" that the classes would retain is the weapon tied to each advanced spec, and a handful of similar abilities that define the discipline.

 

Think of the community and players as a bell curve... The lowest 10% that struggles with the basics of combat, the majority 80% that have an understanding of the play styles and abilities, and the elite 10% that perfectly optimize rotation, gear, and abilities in order to complete the highest level content (broadly speaking of course, to facilitate the example). What this update is doing is redesigning the entire basis of classes within the game to accommodate the lowest 10%. I cannot stress enough how much this complete overhaul will impact the majority 80%, and especially the elite 10%. This will not make the game more fun or engaging, it will not make the style any more unique or noteworthy. These changes will butcher the game at its core, and will drive a significant amount of players away to find other games that satisfy the thrill of challenging combat and a wide arsenal of abilities at their disposal.

----

When the Legacy of the Sith drops and players will be able to choose any discipline for any class story, here is a suggestion for allowing newer players to a discipline more easily learn and pick it up:

 

If you're looking to teach disciplines to make it easier for players that are brand-new to the discipline and want to present the spec to them in a digestible and understandable manner, let's first start by introducing some type of tutorial for "how to play" the class. Start with something simplistic, a small room with one training dummy in an instanced setting. Provide tutorials for teaching how to play the spec, and introduce new abilities once the previous ones have been experimented with.

 

Example: Start with teaching what Strike and Slash are, let the player test them on the dummy for three, five hits to understand resource generation and spending. Then, when the ability Force Leap is unlocked, allow them to travel back to the same instance, and let them try that. Next time, teach them Blade Storm. Unlock it on their ability bar, let them read it, and then test it a few times. This will not only increase retention of the abilities and how to use them, but introduce skills in a structured manner which allows the players to understand the new skill and incorporate it in to their combat. If the player already knows how to play the discipline, or declines to learn in the instanced setting, just toggle it in the settings, to not alert them of the new ability trainer (or whatever it would be called). Everyone would win from this. To my previous bell curve example, the lowest 10% would receive the proper training and education necessary to progress further, the majority 80% could participate or choose not to, and the elite 10% already knows how to play all disciplines in the game as is, so they would likely decline. ALL players would benefit from this change. New players to a discipline could learn at a steady pace to maximize retention, and veteran players could skip it entirely and not be negatively impacted by this addition.

 

If you're looking to streamline and consolidate skill trees and disciplines, here are some suggestions:

 

Throughout the leveling process in using a discipline, there are several "nodes" that reinforce an artificial feel of leveling and progression, without actually presenting anything substantial to impact play style. Let's stick with the running example of the Focus Guardian:

 

At level 12, the passive Swelling Winds is unlocked. This increases the damage of Force Sweep by 40%, and reduces the CD of Force Sweep and Focused Burst by 3 seconds. Why is this necessary? Being unlocked at such a low level, where would the detriment be in just rolling this in to Focus baseline? It's not as though the passive is selected like a Utility, it's something all Focus Guardians receive. Just roll it in to the class if Focus is the active discipline.

 

Similar thought process behind Shii-Cho Mastery, Saber Strength, Focused Resonance, Gravity Defiance. These are minor passive buffs that can easily take up less space by rolling it in to a major passive of the discipline (think: Jedi Guardian's Visionary passive, or Focused Striking). In rolling these "meaningless," perhaps "less-impactful" passives from the skill tree to baseline passives for the discipline, this will free up so much space on the skill trees and provide a cleaner look and feel to the tree, if the dev team is dead-set on consolidating and bastardizing these for the players.

 

Example: When the Focus discipline is chosen, the player will receive the following passive in their Ability list, similar to Visionary:

When attuned to the Focus discipline, increase Armor Penetration by 15%, saber attacks by 5%, force attacks by 3%, and critical damage of all attacks by 15%. The damage of Force Sweep is increased by 40%, and the cooldown of Force Sweep and Focused Burst is reduced by 3 seconds. These bonuses are only active when the Focus discipline is selected.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the "major" passive nodes: Momentum, Zephyrean Slash, Felling Blow to name a few. These are passive buffs that help to really define the class, and accelerate the play style during the leveling process. These are the nodes that we look forward to when leveling, mile stones that really shape the discipline to be fun to play. Want to reduce the amount of clutter and space taken up for the skill trees? Roll the "minor" passives in to grouped baseline passives for the discipline, and keep the "major" passives to reinforce the feel of growing more powerful when leveling, shaping the identity of the spec.

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and in closing to the devs: I urge you to reconsider these changes, for the health and benefit of the game and player base.

[Slurmez]

Where is the BioWare response to these sentiments ?

 

Even a cursory glance through the comments here must surely make even the most narrow minded developer stop and say "I think we got this one wrong guys - let's scrap this idea and not upset our player base" like surely.... right ?

 

I think you will find the internal reaction is more like

 

"How dare these ignorant peons not adore my Magnum Opus, they are just too stupid to understand my wondrous vision, its just so hard being the only one with vision!! Still they will learn to love it, they just need to play it on the live servers to see how wrong they are"

 

Bioware is a complete mess of a sub company, Anthem exposed the monumental failings within and nothing has changed past a minor reshuffle.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Slurmez

[mike_carton]

I think you will find the internal reaction is more like

 

"How dare these ignorant peons not adore my Magnum Opus, they are just too stupid to understand my wondrous vision, its just so hard being the only one with vision!! Still they will learn to love it, they just need to play it on the live servers to see how wrong they are"

 

QFE. Also, funny. I hope @JackieKo is reading.

[Phkrm]

The time, dedication to learning each of the 8 base classes, the 16 advanced classes and each of the 48 skill branch along with each M/F Romance story like. To see NGE return is heart wrenching and Deplorable that once again a game company is going to side on the lower 10% whom want the game handed to them.

After reading all the info posted here have not seen a good post, It reminds me all to well of the postings in SWG regarding the NGE B.S. which killed the game.

Sony would not listen, Wow has to listen and honestly I highly doubt Bio ware will pay head to those of us whom want to keep this game thriving for years to come.

I would have like to seen some new classes and or races added to the game. Ya it might make a little more work but it would have made it a much better game. I did like all the talk about underwater exploration on Manaan and the possible new quest lines. Along with the talk about updating the M/F story lines to keep them going. Well I am off to create a new character on PTS and I will look forward in hope that which is being proposed will not happen. Well we will see.

[VampRayLa]

Swtor means more to you than you mean to bioware.

 

Playing nearly 10 years of swtor, and working 14 years in software development - let me tell you what I know (and I wish I was wrong):

 

These changes are happening

 

They are not asking you if you want these changes, they are asking you to tweak them. These changes have been in the works for six months or more. Probably a year. These changes are happening. They may change which abilities, they may change what level, but this foundation is coming in 7.0. Your classes will be dumbed down.

 

And, for those of us canceling our subs due to this change (yes, I am as well, the day before 7.0 - and I had thought I would play until they turned the servers off), Bioware does not care that you are going to cancel your sub due to these changes. They really don't. Too many will stay to try and make it work. You are now just another ex-swtor player.

 

Swtor means more to you than you mean to bioware.

 

Swtor means so incredibly much more to me than I mean to bioware.

I want to be wrong. I really, really really do, but only bioware can prove that. And I'm not holding my breath.

Edited July 11, 2021 by VampRayLa

[DeannaVoyager]

Wouldn't it be easier to just make a new game? Because it seems like the game we fell in love with and played for years is being butchered to a completely different game. By all means, remove freezing force or force clarity if there is too many abilities, but don't remove the abilities thatwe actually need. If you do that, you will also have to redesign all current operations because some of the mechanics we have require both saber reflect and blade blitz. If it was too hard work to scale the old ops to 75, then isn't this even more work?

 

When 7.0 was announced I also thought it would mean I can respec my guardian to shadow or sage between fights and was excited about the idea. This thing however makes me really sad. It's not going to be the same game anymore and I can see a mass exodus of the veteran players if this goes through as planned.

[Saurat]

this whole thing screams NGE, or more like if the titanic saw the big block of ice or knew about it well in advance. at least they're telling us about this well in advance before they use the death star laser beam to destroy alderaan as we peacefully protest.

 

on the bright side...i want to make a sniper scout trooper, havent played trooper yet beyond coruscant because the weapons arent appealing to me.

 

a melee discipline would also be great considering all the non-lightsaber weapons in the game, so that would be a plus if there would be a melee discipline

Edited July 12, 2021 by Saurat
positve notes

[Dyvim]

PLEASE do NOT do this.

 

Your logic is seriously flawed. You do NOT increase player choice by removing abilities, decreasing options and dumbing down classes. That makes ZERO sense. It actually accomplishes the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are claiming you want to do. Yes, classes have abilities...several of them. You LEARN THEM as you LEVEL your toon. That is how that works.

 

STOP WASTING TIME on elements that ARE NOT BROKEN. Instead, do as the players have asked, repeatedly, and focus on adding CONTENT. Engaging, quality content that provides value for our entertainment dollar. PLEASE.

[Slurmez]

this whole thing screams NGE, or more like if the titanic saw the big block of ice or knew about it well in advance. at least they're telling us about this well in advance before they use the death star laser beam to destroy alderaan as we peacefully protest.

 

on the bright side...i want to make a sniper scout trooper, havent played trooper yet beyond coruscant because the weapons arent appealing to me.

 

a melee discipline would also be great considering all the non-lightsaber weapons in the game, so that would be a plus if there would be a melee discipline

 

Honestly, I dont think they give a crap about the game or even the current players because they have already done all they could on the back of a Star Wars IP with a terrible and outdated engine from launch with obsolete technology.

 

This downsizing and simplification, coupled to the fact that this isnt really a MMO, (it can barely handle a few dozen people per PLANET before having to spawn extra instances) screams that they have their eyes on the next cash grab which I get a feeling is a port over to consoles (which are now powerful enough to run this junk in their sleep) they just need to cull the abilities down to being controller friendly.

 

I could be wrong, but I think this is their current plan, console port and maybe even a junk mobile version.

[Norwaypenguin]

has there been any word from the devs yet? honestly thinking of just quitting right now so I don't have to live with pain of this going live.

[gallerygoo]

This was terrible. I've read multiple replies and they all say the same thing I was thinking your going to drive away the majority for the minority. In business terms this is a bad idea it's like if you owned a bar but because you didn't like beer or liquor you only sold Sodas on tap. It doesn't make sense and it'll only make you cents and not dollars. I've been on this game since beta and have not cancelled my sub but I've been upset with the past few expansions honestly. You didn't learn when you took away the original skill tree and after that happened you lost so many people you had to combine your servers. Back then you had so many people that you had pvp, pve, and rpg servers because you had enough people if you go with this trash. That scenario will happen all over again except it'll be worse because you don't have as many people now as you did then. So if you cents do it but if you want dollars I suggest you change this idea.

[Xoza]

Gaming is about playing a character that feels powerful. Taking away abilities is the complete opposite of this... refining abilities would be better, maybe even speeding them up, giving them better animations.

 

Star Wars Galaxies combat animations (if you watched them fully, instead of spamming them where they would overlap each) still had the best animations in gaming.

[bfin]

I haven't posted but maybe once before but after just a few minutes of PTS play, and i play a vigilance guardian as my main and the Bantha POODOO i experienced with gameplay was just that....For the LOVE OF GOD/ DO NOT GO WITH THIS POODOO.. like others have said...CONTENT is NEEDED not a new nerf to what ISNT BROKEN!!!! WHY would you even consider this a fix....if its too hard there are guides that will help...this was supposed to be a MMO not a PC version of a console system. if people want to only have a few skills then there is A million other Console style games... this is for people who love Star Wars cause of all the choices in creating and in LEARNING how to play that character... I've played since before Rise of the Hutt Cartel, and it is now to the point that i feel BW is discriminating against everyone who has the same opinion of this. it didn't feel like the guardian in combat. after trying this i have to switch back over and play my regular main to figuratively "wash the stench of Bantha POODOO" off of myself....Thanx BW, good job fornicating with COMBAT unnecessarily....