Scoundrels/Operatives ridculously OP.

[VukMarkov]

This reminds me of the threads in WoW screaming for Rogues to be nerfed. There's something about a stealth class that just enrages people, even when other classes often kill them FAR MORE in pvp. Hunters seemed to get a free pass on dominating BGs, and here for some reason people QQ more about Operatives, when I see Bounty Hunters and Sorcs demolishing all of my Republic characters far more often. Sure, I get ganked by operatives like everyone else, but I die to them a lot less overall than BHs and Sorcs.

 

Not discussing what is op and what isn't (this thread is like a year old). Just something I noticed in gaming generally, when it comes to stealth classes. I agree with you, yes. Dying to a rogue/operative/thief/dota 2 stealthers/whatever always feels like you've been cheated and outsmarted, when you never had a real chance to fight back in the first place. The fact that you're stunlocked while someone is spamming knives in your back makes you think of being jumped in an alley by a thug with a blackjack. You just wanna rip him to shreds... Yeah, if you ever recover from the ambush.

People kinda expect chivalry by default, not a cheap way to die without an ability to even resist.

 

As i said, this is just a gaming observation.

 

edit: Oh yeah, about hunters. Yes, same with snipers really, though they get focused a lot more then hunters (wow). They just do their stuff and kill everyone while you're annoyed to hell by that stealther. Logic, right?

Edited January 30, 2013 by VukMarkov

[MotorCityMan]

Agree with the OP, and no, i didn't read all the pages of this thread, just a few.

[Mookind]

Agree with the OP, and no, i didn't read all the pages of this thread, just a few.

 

He said that over a year ago, when they were OP, lol

[xxIncubixx]

why keep necroing ********? Edited January 30, 2013 by xxIncubixx

[geflin]

Anyway. Fact remains, they are immensely OP and their damage needs to be turned down ALOT.

 

They are atm the gods of pvp.

 

The opposite it true now I'm afraid. Operatives no longer have the damage to be viable and next to no defense. It's rare for me to see another concealment Operative these days especially when a warrior can jump and do more damage in an AoE. Makes total sense

Edited January 30, 2013 by geflin

[LordXayd]

Sedatives reduces the target's damage output by 50% after Sleep Dart wears off, not after Hidden Strike is used.

 

That's true. Popping Sleep Dart CC, then immediately First Striking (which finishes Sleep Dart) triggers Sedatives. Should have been more specific on that point. No matter how much detail I try to input to answer questions, I always leave something out.

 

In the hybrid spec I speak of, you're not going to put a turret guard down as fast as a sniper could, but it is an eventuality. Only way out of it I've seen if it you also happen to be a well geared knowledgeable healer that's cool under fire. But you dont often see healers on guard duty, or at least you shouldn't.

 

I've tried full DPS and it is better overall numbers, but you dont get the longevity with slow release medpac or the gimping debuff of sedatives. Takes more time. Not the wham bam the OP speaks of (except for the introductory volley of course), but a victory of time and pressure. About 50 to 75% longer than a sniper's capable of. If power maintenance were an issue, I could see that impacting the engagement, but that's not a problem for this class, on power mgmt par with what a sorc is capable.

 

Bear mind that my whole reply is not about reducing an Ops DPS potential. Like I said, it's not insane. It's just reasonably high burst. My point was to illustrate that their in-combat stealth should be removed. *Poof*ing out of an engagement is game breaking unless your entire class is built around it (AKA Assassins/Shadows). But to give this ability natively to a healer as well is where I take exception. IMO, only Sin/Shadows should have in-combat stealth, AND they should also have better speed boosters that nullify most of the snare associated with being stealthed.

 

To this, an Op healer would complain about a a Sorc healer's Bubble Pop Spec. But when you're in Bubble Pop, you don't get away. You just hold off the inevitable. It's not like you disappeared, hid somewhere where you brought yourself back to full, and stepped out again to sleep dart a few enemies before initiating your next rotation. And since they moved Bubble Pop out of the healing tree anyway, this prevents you from acquiring the group heal (bread and butter of the sorc healer). That alone ends that IMO. You can't maintain power on a sorc if you're solo healing with only single targets. Ergo, if you want to do your job right, you don't get to be bubble pop, which I agree with. It's an OP ability that should be reserved for protecting yourself (and the occasion VIP) when you're in a DPS spec. That's how tradeoffs are supposed to work. You're not supposed to get them by default.

Edited January 30, 2013 by LordXayd

[POPsi]

First of all, gratz whoever brought this up again. OPs were nerfed to the ground with the exception of the healing tree, I hope now they will do it again...

 

OK, first off. The fact that this thread has 115 pages speaks for itself in regards to whether this class is overpowered.

 

Yeah, I think the Op is OP. Aptly named.

But rather than going into numerical oblivion, let's speak basically.

 

You NEVER NEVER NEVER give a healer in-combat stealth. NEVER.

There are 5 overall leet abilities is MMO classes, any 2 of which should NEVER be combined in any class.

 

1. Burst DPS.

2. Heals (meaning any class that is meant to be a healer).

3. Plate tankage (in this game, meaning heavy armor combined with native tank abilities that dont require an AA tree).

4. Stealth (but I'll refine this to in-combat stealth, meaning the ability to stealth while engaged).

5. Feign Death (which, in this game, is likenable to in-combat stealth).

 

The unique situation with TOR is that 6 of the 8 archetypes (or 6 of the 16 subclasses) have the ability to be a healer AND something else. Now, the scound/op can heal on the run with the majority of their heals. That means instant casts, meaning no interrupts. Most of these are HoTs, so it takes some time to feel their effects, but one of them (slow release medpac) is cheap to cast, a decently large heal and can be stacked. You combine all the instant cast HoT's plus the occasional free sizable instant cast full, and you end up with a very hard to kill PvP healer.

 

Also, a nifty little ability (Sedatives) in the healing tree (that only costs 2 points I might add), reduces the targets DPS by 50% for 10 seconds when First Strike is used (which is a pretty big attack by itself). 50%. 10 Seconds. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. You wanna know why you're dying when they jump you? It's because you're gimped. All your high cooldown big booms are halved. 10 seconds is the majority of the engagement. That ability costs no power and is passive. And it's in the healing tree? Hmm.

 

I have a well geared Sin and Scound. The base dmg (just looking at the base numbers of the abilities) is no comparison. The scound's got em beat. And the scound's attacks are less situational. The biggest Sin ability is assassinate. It requires the target to be below 30%, the attacker to be behind them and within 4M. No scound ability is that high in dmg, but they have several that are near it and they're not situational. First Strike is, but obviously that one's a guarantee. And a scound would be a fool not to open with First Strike since it gimps your DPS by 50%.

 

Now I'm talking about a hybrid scound that went far enough up the healing tree to maximize slow release medpac. So when you combine those remaining points to create a fairly high burst DPS class WITH pimp heals AND in-combat stealth guaranteeing first strike ability (which we all know is at the core of successful PvP), you end up with a class that (when combined with a knowledgeable player) is highly advantaged over the other classes. And if it doesnt work out, they can just *poof* out of the situation, robbing you of your victory against the odds. Believe it or not, there are classes out there that have no significant DoTs to break their poof. Sorcs and Mercs for example.

 

In every other MMO I've played where there was an assassin, they were the best stealthers (nonCombat) and held tier 1 DPS. But in this game, only an allstar can do enough with the pitiful base dmg of a Sin to make it a class to be reckoned with. But an average player can put out similar dmg with a hybrid Op. And to add insult to injury, Ops get every steatlh abiltiy of the Sin (including stealth detection and level boosters & speed haste) PLUS group stealth. Not that I use that much, but the point is they get more stealth ability than the Sin. THE SIN. THAT is a JOKE. I mean, what was BW thinking? They're really showing their green MMO stripes here. My scound is relatively recent. But I've heard that ops/scounds have already been significantly nerfed. I can only imagine what they must have once been. No class should outstealth an Assassin. I've never even heard of such a thing. And to give the Op better DPS (notably better) is mind boggling. But I suppose that's a byproduct of allowing a healer to hybridize.

 

Generally speaking, I've rolled 8 classes to 50 and PvP'd with all them. Some of them are very clearly more instantly suited to PvP than others. Those classes don't require EWH to be stellar. Simple WH is sufficient and you can get that in a week. I have a marauder too, and everyone goes on about how OP they are. I disagree. A high Smash hit requires maximized gear even against an average geared player. AND you have to build a sequence of abilities to maximize it, so you cant use it very often (at high dmg). And once its built up, you got about 10 seconds or you lose it. Not that I consider the marauder to be a fun class, so I dont use him anymore except for crafting. So I'm not all pro-marauder or anything.

 

The point is when I talk about how I think the op/scound is OP, you wont see me whining about the usual class that folks complain about (smashers, who btw are very very squishy, even the juggs). When I say something is OP, I speak from experience. But again, I didnt even have to maximize gear to know. You DO NOT give a healer burst dmg or in-combat stealth/feign death. You get one, not two of anything, or you're OP.

 

1/ Would you like to see a plate tank class with burst DPS?

* A true tank class has native skills that dont require wasting AAs to become a tank. Turning a cloth wearer into a tank by forcing them to use all their AA points does not compare to a plate tank that starts out a tank and merely enhances their tanking with AAs while snatching up other things.

2/ Would you like to be set upon by a Sniper with 200 or 300 healing per second?

3/ Would you like to be jumped by a cloaked tier1 DPS Sin with plate tank survivability?

4/ Or a plate tank with tier1 DPS or 200/300 healing per second?

 

Combining these things is a no-no. But there's no way to fix it without a serious restructuring of the class system. You're a healer, a tank or DPS. You dont get to be a combination of two at 80% effectiveness in both. It's supposed to be an equal trade-off, but BW failed here.

 

For this I only have to say one thing. You do realize that pvp in this game is not about 1v1? Yes, maybe an OP can surprise someone wondering alone but it will not decide the outcome of the game. And if they are healers they won't go semi-dps just to prove your right. They will go full heal and won't have time screw around try to pick people off unless they are against noobs. Also, if they would be so op everyone would roll them... but interestingly we only see lolsmashers, I wonder why. In any semi-competent game there won't be solo guards on nodes unless they have stealth too, which makes your argument invalid again. And pvp being group oriented, you will rarely see dps ops because in group fights they don't have the tools to support the team like other classes can. In any case, dps trees would need a buff, not nerfing.

[rainbow]

OK, first off. The fact that this thread has 115 pages speaks for itself in regards to whether this class is overpowered.

 

First off, the fact that this thread hasn't been used in almost one full year with the game running for 14 months total speaks for itself in regard to whether this class is STILL overpowered or NOT.

Edited January 30, 2013 by rainbow

[Natholomew]

Complicated like Powertechs. Nerf Operatives and Mercenaries!

 

Rise from your grave!

[LordXayd]

First of all, gratz whoever brought this up again. OPs were nerfed to the ground with the exception of the healing tree, I hope now they will do it again...

 

 

 

For this I only have to say one thing. You do realize that pvp in this game is not about 1v1? Yes, maybe an OP can surprise someone wondering alone but it will not decide the outcome of the game. And if they are healers they won't go semi-dps just to prove your right. They will go full heal and won't have time screw around try to pick people off unless they are against noobs. Also, if they would be so op everyone would roll them... but interestingly we only see lolsmashers, I wonder why. In any semi-competent game there won't be solo guards on nodes unless they have stealth too, which makes your argument invalid again. And pvp being group oriented, you will rarely see dps ops because in group fights they don't have the tools to support the team like other classes can. In any case, dps trees would need a buff, not nerfing.

 

It's hard to argue with you Popsi (cool name btw). But I do see solo nonstealth guards all the time. O.o. Because it's considered "crap duty", a weak player is often chosen to occupy the local turret until a 2nd is taken, at which time you send another person over. But before then is a prime opportunity to stealthstrike a turret grab.

 

To not be in stealth would alert enemy reinforcements too soon, so its falls to a scound or sin class to make it happen right. Because both classes get two instant cast 8 second mezzes (the scound without even having to spec into it), the idea is always to mezz, attempt cap, get interrupted, re-mezz and then cap. BUT, that requires the guard to be 10 -15 meters away. Any closer and they'll stop your cap when they come out of the 2nd mezz. Any further, and they're too far away to pop the 2nd mezz. They also have to be green enough to not know how to handle the situation, since an 8 second mezz is actually not quite long enough to cap an 8 second turret (except for Hypergate, but that has it's own tradeoffs). With such a specific set of requirements, the nonCombat stealthcap is a rare thing, rare enough to where, in the long run, you have wasted too much of your team's time in the various attempts. You're better off to attempt to kill the guard, then cap. In most cases, this won't work because at least one reinforcement will arrive, though it's usually two. When they arrive, chances are excellent that the original guard will be running back. Now that's 3, so the pimp hybrid heals come into play. You still won't last long. That's when you incombat stealth and just sit there (or leave). The point is that now, 3 guys are standing there indecisively because you presented yourself as a real threat. If one gets smart and attempts to leave, Sleep Dart. You can keep those 3 boys tied up for a while, during which time hopefully a 2nd turret is taken across the field. Now that I have done many times.

 

But you're right, if you're full heal spec and attempting to do this, you're letting your team down. Better to let a sin do it, if you have one and he's motivated. The hybrid op is not meant to be a healer, but to possess enough native healing to extend an engagement long enough to succeed objectively. But he couldnt do any of that without being able to go into stealth mid combat. I have a merc and sorc, and tried them both in DPS specs. They don't have anything like slow release medpac or instant cast cycling HoTs that would allow them to hybridize effectively with DPS. In fact, their native heals are really only used if you manage to get away and can top yourself off before you leave combat. But that's cool, it's not like Ops get the big phat heals of sorcs. But if they're going to try this, they shouldnt have a Get out of Jail Free card every time it's not going their way.

[Debaucher]

This thread is frustrating. In all honestly folks,

 

the only area a Scoundrel/Operative should be considered Overpowered is the healing tree.

 

Our "burst" is nothing compared to Focus/Rage spec, Carnage Spec, Assault/Pyrotech Specs.

 

They hit for more and their damage is sustainable. Scrapper cannot sustain dps.

 

As for the "hybrid" specs. Choosing sedatives and Slow release medpack requires 13 talent points in sawbones. This means you can spend 27 on scrapper tree. So, you ll either get KO (stun on opener) OR 2/3 Underdog (20% additional critical damage on some abilities). And then you ll have 0 on lethality. (Minus critical and blaster whip damage). I ll try it, but i feel it will be beyond bad.

 

Bottomline. DPS Operatives/Scoundrels are not Overpowered in any way. If you get owned by them its because one or all of the following:

(a) You don't know what to do against this class. (Yes, that was a polite way of saying you are bad)

(b) You were severely undergeared compared to the guy who jumped you.

[Technohic]

Are we talking about the current state of operatives now, or still the date this was posted?

 

I have been playing around with my scrapper lately after playing around with my sin. I will say it seems like Concealment/scrapper was meant to kill a single target more with a quick burst, but then be out of combat waiting for CDs because you are nearly useless after that. the sin does not have the initial burst, but thier burst lasts longer and rolls into sustatined DPS and they have the survivability to keep fighting I find the scrapper lacks. Concealment to scrapper wise. lethality also is not as good as madness due to the UH requirements IMO.

[ktkenshinx]

I am not even going to try and address all of LordXayd's points. Some of them are just so hilariously wrong that they rebut themselves ("smashers, who btw are very very squishy, even the juggs", "Ops get every steatlh abiltiy of the Sin, including stealth detection and level boosters & speed haste PLUS group stealth", etc.). Seriously. GROUP STEALTH? Are we talking about SMUGGLE, one of the worst abilities in PvP?

 

I wasn't even planning to post in this ridiculous, necrod thread, but if it looks like it is here to stay then some misconceptions need to be dealt with.

OK, first off. The fact that this thread has 115 pages speaks for itself in regards to whether this class is overpowered.

Before some mega troll revived this thread, the last post in it was 2/17/2012. Of those last few posts, most of them mentioned how Ops had been nerfed into the ground and needed a BUFF, not a nerf. The only thing that "speaks for itself" is your flagrant misuse of evidence. At release, Ops were completely out of control. They had too much damage and too much stun. BW fixed that with a series of good nerfs (knockdown reduced to 1.5 seconds) and unnecessary ones (Backstab CD increase).

I have a well geared Sin and Scound. The base dmg (just looking at the base numbers of the abilities) is no comparison. The scound's got em beat. And the scound's attacks are less situational. The biggest Sin ability is assassinate. It requires the target to be below 30%, the attacker to be behind them and within 4M. No scound ability is that high in dmg, but they have several that are near it and they're not situational. First Strike is, but obviously that one's a guarantee. And a scound would be a fool not to open with First Strike since it gimps your DPS by 50%.

Either you are severely overstating your case, or you are just the worst Sin on the forum. There is a reason that Sins are always taken above Ops in Ranked WZ teams. A Madness/Deception hybrid has almost identical burst to a Concealment Op, and far better sustained damage and resource management. The internal damage burst on such Sins hits far harder than the single Acid Blade DOT, lasts longer, heals the Sin, and can be applied more frequently. Sins also have a true finishing ability that will almost always hit for the exact same as a critted Backstab or Hidden Strike, if not more. This doesn't even get at their vastly superior utility and survivability that Sins have without even touching the Tank tree (Force Speed, higher base HP, and the outrageous Force Shroud). It also ignore the group utility that Sins have courtesy of single target and mass taunt, neither of which need to be used in tank stance. And that is to say nothing at all about the tank/DPS Sin hybrids, another spec that has vastly superior sustained damage and survivability.

Now I'm talking about a hybrid scound that went far enough up the healing tree to maximize slow release medpac. So when you combine those remaining points to create a fairly high burst DPS class WITH pimp heals AND in-combat stealth guaranteeing first strike ability (which we all know is at the core of successful PvP), you end up with a class that (when combined with a knowledgeable player) is highly advantaged over the other classes. And if it doesnt work out, they can just *poof* out of the situation, robbing you of your victory against the odds. Believe it or not, there are classes out there that have no significant DoTs to break their poof. Sorcs and Mercs for example.

I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are talking purely about Sawbones/Scrapper hybrids. You seem like a reasonable (maybe) individual, and there is just no way you can be seriously comparing Concealment damage to that of a Deception/Madness Sin. So let's talk about healing.

 

It is widely accepted that Sawbones healing is crazy. I think it's on the "broken" side of things, but that's just me. If you were JUST complaining about pure Sawbones healers, i.e. those with at least 21+ points in the Sawbones tree, then I would probably agree with you.

 

But you are referring to healing hybrids, and that leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about. Any hybrid Scrapper with SRMP or other Sawbones talents above 11 points instantly loses access to the only ability that makes them hit hard: Flechette Round. Without the Flechette Round DOT and the 30% Armor Penetration, Scrappers lose almost all of their burst. It is especially noticeable against classes with higher mitigation (powertechs, juggs, sins), where the Scrapper goes from a serious damage contender to a tickling annoyance. The only thing that hybrid Scrappers get is a reliable Upper Hand generation system to more effectively spam Sucker Punch. Punch itself is a straight up kinetic damage attack with no armor penetration, no self healing, no DOT application, no synergy with other abilities (extra crit, cooldown resets, etc.), and no attached CC of any kind. Are such hybrids hard to kill? Absolutely; Sawbones is a healing tree that is just too powerful. But are such hybrids also a DPS monster? Absolutely not.

 

I am not sure why you persist in these opinions given everything that others have said. My suspicion is that you have lost fights to Scrappers in a 1v1 and are now calling for their unilateral nerfing. I suggest that you look through the forums and get a good look at which classes are overperforming and which are not. You will find that Scrappers/Concealments are consistently at the bottom of the PvP barrel.

 

EDIT: As a final note, I will say that Ops/Scrappers have a unique ability set to exploit the natural weaknesses in Pug WZs. Nodes are often defended by one player in Recruit gear, an easy target for an incoming Scrapper. Similarly, with no voice chat or coordination, this class can easily pick off targets before allies notice and come to help. But 1) this is equally true of Sins and Shadows and 2) it is absolutely untrue in ranked WZs or against semi-competent premades.

Edited January 30, 2013 by ktkenshinx

[tekhiun]

Has no one realised that OP had less than 13k health ? Re read OP, do the math, post on another thread.

[ktkenshinx]

Has no one realised that OP had less than 13k health ? Re read OP, do the math, post on another thread.

I don't think anyone is responding to the OP. He posted this literally 13 months ago. At this point, people are responding to the guys who necrod this thread and continue to believe that Ops are too powerful (most notably this LordXayd character).

[randiesel]

Don't waste your time man. Trolls gonna troll. Edited January 30, 2013 by randiesel

[DarthOvertone]

Another blast from the past!

[darthnish]

Relevant :

 

[LastWizard]

They are OP. They have harder to sustain dps. But they always have the advantage in a fight because it's on their terms. No matter what, I will always think they are op.

[tacito]

They are OP. They have harder to sustain dps. But they always have the advantage in a fight because it's on their terms. No matter what, I will always think they are op.

 

They are OP, otherwise why would there be dozens of "Nerf scoundrels"-threads on the first page. People always think of scoundrels first when they hear the word "overpowered" nowadays.

[Darth-Rammstein]

holy necro batman!

[Nightthunder]

So me and another level 50 runs op to cap this point in the Alderaan warzone. Out of nowhere this scoundrel opens up and obliterates the other lvl 50 before I can even react. He then vanishes and opens up on me with a stun.

 

At this point im thinking surely he cannot do the same thing to me, he just did to the other guy 8 seconds ago. Boy was I wrong.

 

STUN

4.7k

3.8k

3.0k

STUN OVER

 

At this point I have about 10% of my hp left ...

 

4.7k + 3.8k + 3.0k = 12k

12k + 10% = 13.2k hp

 

13.2k HP is less than mk-2 recruit gear... go get yourself mk-2 gear and then full WH, then you will see why they dont really need a nerf.

If you are still not convinced, get a healer and/or tank buddy, then they are really a joke.

 

P.S. stop whining if you dont know how to provide proper data for your subjective assumptions... whiner

[paul_preib]

4.7k + 3.8k + 3.0k = 12k

12k + 10% = 13.2k hp

 

13.2k HP is less than mk-2 recruit gear... go get yourself mk-2 gear and then full WH, then you will see why they dont really need a nerf.

If you are still not convinced, get a healer and/or tank buddy, then they are really a joke.

 

P.S. stop whining if you dont know how to provide proper data for your subjective assumptions... whiner

 

did you check the date sparky? this was a necro from early on when 13.2k hp was potentially a level 50's full health.

[Kegparty]

Did you check the date of this thread? They have been nerfed 2x since over a year ago. They hardly do the damage they once did.

[kijthae]

operatives / scoundrels are pathetic. They always come to me while i was incover. They think as a gearless gunslinger i would be an easy target.They are a stealth class and Im ranged turret they should be easly take me.However things doesnt happen in that way.They expose roller coaster level of knockbacks and cds. They finnaly decide to restealth and run like scared puppies but it is too late I always keep them dotted.After their death , guess what .. they keep coming , lose after lose.It ends up all operatives/scoundrels of the opposite team on me during the warzone. Edited January 31, 2013 by kijthae