FailWare!

You know how hard it is to find game mechanic information for TOR, like anywhere? I mean supposedly, A 10K companion gives you 5% crit crafting chance, but we dont really know that for a fact. We only know what Dulfy's site tells us and how credible is that insider info? Not a single other site suggests that and it's certainly not reflected ingame. Do the ship droids and HK share that mechanic? You would assume so, but Dulfy doesnt even mention it. They are a different type of companion after all. And yet, you know that the queue algorithm attempts to pair off groups? Do you have any evidence of that, or has it just been your experience? I don't your fault your experience of course. That's all we ever have to go on in this game. Though, people who show up in PvE blue 50 gear rather than free recruit do aggravate me too. Everyone's got an opinion on the expertise thing. Seems rather obvious to me, especially since you can prove it numerically with the tool tips. I do agree a Black Hole healer has more output potential than a WH healer, but only if they're left alone to free-cast. Which of course you can't count upon.

If you're going to bring up every exception situation to attempt to win an argument, like this one circumstance nullifies the entire discussion, we'll never get anywhere. Yes, of course crossguild premades are semi-common, but less so than full guild premades because they're encouraged to assist one another. I only brought up a known tag to illustrate how a hardcore grouping dominates pugs, which is effectively not a balanced game technique. If you disagree with that, I dont know what else to say. I've made a specialty of the solo queue, and consequently win more matches than I lose. But it is a point of obviousness that premades that refuse to solo queue for exactly the reason we're discussing imbalance the engagement. Again, if you think that's untrue, I dont know what else to say. And blaming the premade is not the issue. It's the mechanic that's the problem. If you take a 4 RL hardcore friends with maximized gear and put them in a room with 4 random people of varying skill and equipment, text only communication and limited (at best) synergy, the result is all but certain. That is clearly imbalanced. So the solution is to require solo queueing or require group queueing. At it's most basic level, that's what qualities as fair. In the end, I would like to see more people participating. But if they won't do it because they're tired of getting stomped during the gearing up and learning processes, and considering this is a game, that is a failure on BW's part and a loss to the community at large.

I only brought up GG's quality to illustrate how ineffective a pug is against them, which reduces the fun factor for anyone who's not hardcore, and I'm sure that's not something BW wants. In regards to it not resolving the quitters problem, let me elaborate. I believe it will mitigate the issue. Don't you breathe a sigh of relief when you solo queue into a group with a quality premade, because you're worried about a premade on the other side? But if there were no premades, the gear distribution in a pop would be far more even, an aspect that you could effectively rely on from pop to pop. A quitter, knowing that there is no premade and with a statistically even distribution of gear and skill, is more likely to stay. Only quitting on the odd pop. Now I wasn't thinking there should be 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 queues (if that's what you meant). You're either grouped or you're not, but you do bring up a point about the 3v3. I guess you'd have to test it to see how effective it was. But is very possible that we'll get a larger pool if solo queueing was separated. And again, cross-server queueing would fix the wait issue. I know that's been done in other games.

Its so rare to be able to use a companion in PvP. You can't use them in any designated PvP area (although I don't know how it works on PvP only servers). I have outfitted Ashara in full WH and sometimes ride around (on my speeder) flagged in a high level pub infested area, hoping to get jumped. At which time, the speeder despawns and out comes Ashara with 1100 EXP and some change. It's fun, but unfortunately I get jumped so rarely. Now Im a healing sorc, so I dont need Khem in a situation like that. What you usually want is your highest possible DPS to end the fight before any gawking onlookers decide to jump in. And that's Ashara or Revel.

Take Game Genie (Ebon Hawk) for example. Truely an exceptional group, but a group none-the-less. When you oppose them, they protect their healers aggressively. They give the huttball to the appropriate tank and maintain a good pass flow from ball spawn to in-zone. They maintain a quality predefined player pair for capturing the introductory CW turret. They have stealthing specialists to prevent CW mid-cap that waste your team's time very effectively. They aggregate 3/5 or 4/4 splits in VS to maintain consistent pressure for the plant or defense. They dont risk solo pylon grabs in AH, offering up potential kills points for the opposition. In NC, only a few trusted allstars are allowed to break away and attempt the 3rd turret cap or distraction. But even with all of that, what I see is effectively a raid invading the solo queue. Most of us don't play that way, and so it's very hard to be effective against them. So consequently, the only GG members that I respect are the ones that I can see have solo queued and don't quit out when they don't like what they see. I know several "elites" that are serial quitters because they don't want to work with recruits. And I'm not just talking about GG or pub guilds. That goes for all PvP primary guilds. Some of them are really bad about it and I call them out when I see them queue into a recruit group before they quit. I've never once seen a serial quitter drop out when they're proactively called out on it. So I know it means something to them. So give us a solo queue, to separate the quitters and the cowards from those of us with spines and drive.

Ever the hot-button topic. I do think we should have 3 queues (Ranked, group and solo). If you really think that you're all big and bad, but only because your buddies are always covering you, then you really arent that pimp. Most of the classes I've tried have the ability to be exceptional if maximized properly. That means there really is no reason why a solo queue option shouldnt be available. And for the few classes that suffer at one time or another, their lack of attendance in a solo queue would be an easy-to-pull stat indicator for BW's balancing goals. It's much harder to poll for imbalance when an allstar plays a disadvantaged class successfully, but only because he has reliable help. Trust me, that allstar still knows his situation and would like it fixed also. I personally feel that the solo queue is always the most challenging. It really forces you to refine techniques, gear, cooperation, skill charting and rotation. But that provides little benefit if you run across two guys of similar drive ganging up on you as your team's playmaker. I know a variety of skilled elitists with inflated heads, not because they really are "unbeatable", but because they're simply used to winning due to their group associations. Most of them are mistaken about their skill (barring the occasional exception), but there's rarely an opportunity to prove them wrong, not that you can really teach lessons to such obtuse cowards. A truely "unbeatable" reputation is obtained by working with what you've got and running with it, on the fly. The only downside I can see to creating a 3rd queue is fewer queue pops. But it's quite possible that such a feature would actually increase the queue pool. There appears to be a lot of responders in this thread that have quit queueing because of the lack of said feature. And it could be resolved with cross-server queueing. It all seems like a win-win to me.

It's hard to argue with you Popsi (cool name btw). But I do see solo nonstealth guards all the time. O.o. Because it's considered "crap duty", a weak player is often chosen to occupy the local turret until a 2nd is taken, at which time you send another person over. But before then is a prime opportunity to stealthstrike a turret grab. To not be in stealth would alert enemy reinforcements too soon, so its falls to a scound or sin class to make it happen right. Because both classes get two instant cast 8 second mezzes (the scound without even having to spec into it), the idea is always to mezz, attempt cap, get interrupted, re-mezz and then cap. BUT, that requires the guard to be 10 -15 meters away. Any closer and they'll stop your cap when they come out of the 2nd mezz. Any further, and they're too far away to pop the 2nd mezz. They also have to be green enough to not know how to handle the situation, since an 8 second mezz is actually not quite long enough to cap an 8 second turret (except for Hypergate, but that has it's own tradeoffs). With such a specific set of requirements, the nonCombat stealthcap is a rare thing, rare enough to where, in the long run, you have wasted too much of your team's time in the various attempts. You're better off to attempt to kill the guard, then cap. In most cases, this won't work because at least one reinforcement will arrive, though it's usually two. When they arrive, chances are excellent that the original guard will be running back. Now that's 3, so the pimp hybrid heals come into play. You still won't last long. That's when you incombat stealth and just sit there (or leave). The point is that now, 3 guys are standing there indecisively because you presented yourself as a real threat. If one gets smart and attempts to leave, Sleep Dart. You can keep those 3 boys tied up for a while, during which time hopefully a 2nd turret is taken across the field. Now that I have done many times. But you're right, if you're full heal spec and attempting to do this, you're letting your team down. Better to let a sin do it, if you have one and he's motivated. The hybrid op is not meant to be a healer, but to possess enough native healing to extend an engagement long enough to succeed objectively. But he couldnt do any of that without being able to go into stealth mid combat. I have a merc and sorc, and tried them both in DPS specs. They don't have anything like slow release medpac or instant cast cycling HoTs that would allow them to hybridize effectively with DPS. In fact, their native heals are really only used if you manage to get away and can top yourself off before you leave combat. But that's cool, it's not like Ops get the big phat heals of sorcs. But if they're going to try this, they shouldnt have a Get out of Jail Free card every time it's not going their way.

That's true. Popping Sleep Dart CC, then immediately First Striking (which finishes Sleep Dart) triggers Sedatives. Should have been more specific on that point. No matter how much detail I try to input to answer questions, I always leave something out. In the hybrid spec I speak of, you're not going to put a turret guard down as fast as a sniper could, but it is an eventuality. Only way out of it I've seen if it you also happen to be a well geared knowledgeable healer that's cool under fire. But you dont often see healers on guard duty, or at least you shouldn't. I've tried full DPS and it is better overall numbers, but you dont get the longevity with slow release medpac or the gimping debuff of sedatives. Takes more time. Not the wham bam the OP speaks of (except for the introductory volley of course), but a victory of time and pressure. About 50 to 75% longer than a sniper's capable of. If power maintenance were an issue, I could see that impacting the engagement, but that's not a problem for this class, on power mgmt par with what a sorc is capable. Bear mind that my whole reply is not about reducing an Ops DPS potential. Like I said, it's not insane. It's just reasonably high burst. My point was to illustrate that their in-combat stealth should be removed. *Poof*ing out of an engagement is game breaking unless your entire class is built around it (AKA Assassins/Shadows). But to give this ability natively to a healer as well is where I take exception. IMO, only Sin/Shadows should have in-combat stealth, AND they should also have better speed boosters that nullify most of the snare associated with being stealthed. To this, an Op healer would complain about a a Sorc healer's Bubble Pop Spec. But when you're in Bubble Pop, you don't get away. You just hold off the inevitable. It's not like you disappeared, hid somewhere where you brought yourself back to full, and stepped out again to sleep dart a few enemies before initiating your next rotation. And since they moved Bubble Pop out of the healing tree anyway, this prevents you from acquiring the group heal (bread and butter of the sorc healer). That alone ends that IMO. You can't maintain power on a sorc if you're solo healing with only single targets. Ergo, if you want to do your job right, you don't get to be bubble pop, which I agree with. It's an OP ability that should be reserved for protecting yourself (and the occasion VIP) when you're in a DPS spec. That's how tradeoffs are supposed to work. You're not supposed to get them by default.

I mentioned that just above. Everything I wrote up there is current.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in Zimbabwe?

Perhaps you missed the 2nd stun he mentioned, during which he's set upon again.

OK, first off. The fact that this thread has 115 pages speaks for itself in regards to whether this class is overpowered. Yeah, I think the Op is OP. Aptly named. But rather than going into numerical oblivion, let's speak basically. You NEVER NEVER NEVER give a healer in-combat stealth. NEVER. There are 5 overall leet abilities is MMO classes, any 2 of which should NEVER be combined in any class. 1. Burst DPS. 2. Heals (meaning any class that is meant to be a healer). 3. Plate tankage (in this game, meaning heavy armor combined with native tank abilities that dont require an AA tree). 4. Stealth (but I'll refine this to in-combat stealth, meaning the ability to stealth while engaged). 5. Feign Death (which, in this game, is likenable to in-combat stealth). The unique situation with TOR is that 6 of the 8 archetypes (or 6 of the 16 subclasses) have the ability to be a healer AND something else. Now, the scound/op can heal on the run with the majority of their heals. That means instant casts, meaning no interrupts. Most of these are HoTs, so it takes some time to feel their effects, but one of them (slow release medpac) is cheap to cast, a decently large heal and can be stacked. You combine all the instant cast HoT's plus the occasional free sizable instant cast full, and you end up with a very hard to kill PvP healer. Also, a nifty little ability (Sedatives) in the healing tree (that only costs 2 points I might add), reduces the targets DPS by 50% for 10 seconds when First Strike is used (which is a pretty big attack by itself). 50%. 10 Seconds. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. You wanna know why you're dying when they jump you? It's because you're gimped. All your high cooldown big booms are halved. 10 seconds is the majority of the engagement. That ability costs no power and is passive. And it's in the healing tree? Hmm. I have a well geared Sin and Scound. The base dmg (just looking at the base numbers of the abilities) is no comparison. The scound's got em beat. And the scound's attacks are less situational. The biggest Sin ability is assassinate. It requires the target to be below 30%, the attacker to be behind them and within 4M. No scound ability is that high in dmg, but they have several that are near it and they're not situational. First Strike is, but obviously that one's a guarantee. And a scound would be a fool not to open with First Strike since it gimps your DPS by 50%. Now I'm talking about a hybrid scound that went far enough up the healing tree to maximize slow release medpac. So when you combine those remaining points to create a fairly high burst DPS class WITH pimp heals AND in-combat stealth guaranteeing first strike ability (which we all know is at the core of successful PvP), you end up with a class that (when combined with a knowledgeable player) is highly advantaged over the other classes. And if it doesnt work out, they can just *poof* out of the situation, robbing you of your victory against the odds. Believe it or not, there are classes out there that have no significant DoTs to break their poof. Sorcs and Mercs for example. In every other MMO I've played where there was an assassin, they were the best stealthers (nonCombat) and held tier 1 DPS. But in this game, only an allstar can do enough with the pitiful base dmg of a Sin to make it a class to be reckoned with. But an average player can put out similar dmg with a hybrid Op. And to add insult to injury, Ops get every steatlh abiltiy of the Sin (including stealth detection and level boosters & speed haste) PLUS group stealth. Not that I use that much, but the point is they get more stealth ability than the Sin. THE SIN. THAT is a JOKE. I mean, what was BW thinking? They're really showing their green MMO stripes here. My scound is relatively recent. But I've heard that ops/scounds have already been significantly nerfed. I can only imagine what they must have once been. No class should outstealth an Assassin. I've never even heard of such a thing. And to give the Op better DPS (notably better) is mind boggling. But I suppose that's a byproduct of allowing a healer to hybridize. Generally speaking, I've rolled 8 classes to 50 and PvP'd with all them. Some of them are very clearly more instantly suited to PvP than others. Those classes don't require EWH to be stellar. Simple WH is sufficient and you can get that in a week. I have a marauder too, and everyone goes on about how OP they are. I disagree. A high Smash hit requires maximized gear even against an average geared player. AND you have to build a sequence of abilities to maximize it, so you cant use it very often (at high dmg). And once its built up, you got about 10 seconds or you lose it. Not that I consider the marauder to be a fun class, so I dont use him anymore except for crafting. So I'm not all pro-marauder or anything. The point is when I talk about how I think the op/scound is OP, you wont see me whining about the usual class that folks complain about (smashers, who btw are very very squishy, even the juggs). When I say something is OP, I speak from experience. But again, I didnt even have to maximize gear to know. You DO NOT give a healer burst dmg or in-combat stealth/feign death. You get one, not two of anything, or you're OP. 1/ Would you like to see a plate tank class with burst DPS? * A true tank class has native skills that dont require wasting AAs to become a tank. Turning a cloth wearer into a tank by forcing them to use all their AA points does not compare to a plate tank that starts out a tank and merely enhances their tanking with AAs while snatching up other things. 2/ Would you like to be set upon by a Sniper with 200 or 300 healing per second? 3/ Would you like to be jumped by a cloaked tier1 DPS Sin with plate tank survivability? 4/ Or a plate tank with tier1 DPS or 200/300 healing per second? Combining these things is a no-no. But there's no way to fix it without a serious restructuring of the class system. You're a healer, a tank or DPS. You dont get to be a combination of two at 80% effectiveness in both. It's supposed to be an equal trade-off, but BW failed here.

My understanding is that you cannot use Legacy abilities in a WZ. For example, I opted for the Field Mail Droid (Legacy) on all my characters in lieu of the ship mailbox. I've personally confirmed you cannot summon the Droid in a WZ.

Dont forget that Expertise provides bonus healing. But more than that, the problem comes in when youre attacked. You're just too squishy without expertise protecting you. I dont waste my heals on folks in PvE gear because I can't keep them up. Better to heal someone else that actually has a chance of a surviving. As a healer, youre a primary target. As a PvE healer, an experienced PvPer will focus you for instaganks every time he sees you. It will be even worse if a PvP healing teamMate is trying to keep you up pointlessly. Your death means group death. Honestly, I can't think of a worse person to be in PvE gear than the healer, except maybe a designated ball handler in huttball.