Why I'm done with PvP

[-Bob-]

Simple questions then.

 

Why do we have rewards or missions at all in pvp? Why does winning ranked and climbing the ELO matter?

 

Playing devils advocate here. By your explanations, pvpers should just be pvping for the sake of pvping and get nothing for it,

 

Those are good questions, I ask the same. I went so far in another thread/post as to suggest removing rewards from warzones entirely.

Personally speaking, i play for the win, the rewards are not really enticing to me, but that is just my opinion and i realize not everyone shares it.

As for ranked, it's not my arena but it is intended to be more of an endgame competitive aspect of pvp where the rewards seem to be a little more coveted.

[Sappharan]

Equating PVP to a Quest, that to me is ludicrous. Therein lies the problem?

Winning is it's own reward (i read that from you before), not some cheap Quest advancement with a petty prize pool that amounts to nothing.

 

And I stand by that. When my quests are complete, I don't stop PvPing. I continue to PvP. It's not the quest that keeps me going. It's the challenge and the thrill of victory.

 

But there is another side to that. As with the Valor thing that (Nickodemus, I think) was posted in another thread, it keeps some of us going (incentive) when I may not be in the mood to PvP, and it helps take the sting out of being stomped by numbers farmers...well, it did until this new policy took hold.

 

If you find yourself on teams of players that are intent on sabotaging your games then giving you a reward for playing those games isn't going to change that outcome for you 1 bit and you can't tell me that the reward you're being given for tolerating those matches makes it worth it...

 

Okay, I am following you...

 

...you'll still come here and complain that you don't like pvp and you'll complain until you're faced with one other opponent where one of you throws a strike against the other, you both fall dead and a banner pops up congratulating both of you on being a winner.

 

...and you lost me. Not sure what you mean here. Sure, I have complaints, we all do. I still enjoy PvP. I enjoy it a lot less with these new (aging) policies, though.

 

And you're right...the meager prizes won't make a match as you described really worth it, but it can take the sting out of a bad loss (for me).

 

I respect you as a player and poster However you regard me in return is immaterial, but I wanted to put that out there because you seem a touch exasperated. However, respect and concordance of opinions are separate. I disagree with you and those who hold that opinion on this matter, but please do not mistake my former post as hostility. My pique is not directed at you or even others who share your opinion as it is directed at the OPINION itself. I simply quoted you because you were the latest one to comment on it.

[merovejec]

Playing devils advocate here. By your explanations, pvpers should just be pvping for the sake of pvping and get nothing for it,

 

This has been here before.

 

There was the discussion of PVP bolster where people complained that PVPers have it hard getting gear and PVE ppl not and they come fully geared into PVP. People demanded bolster for higher gear level. That basically means that a PVPer does not need to farm gear and just que and play for fun.

 

Thats when it was raised that PVP should be easy entry and just pure fun. The thing is that Devs tie other things with PVP like conquest, crafting mats and also fragments for gear. That is the issue with PVP and the rewards, those rewards are mainly for the "other players" who are not really there for PVP.

[Aricin]

Quick disclaimer, played since launch, solo queuing most of the time. But it doesnt matter whether i am long time player or not. PVP is broken, has been for a long time and since further changes made in 6.1 taking another turn for the worse.

 

The solo queue vs. pre made is not unique to SWtoR and unless your population is healthy enough that you can have separate queues the only option apart from "suck it up solo queuer" is to only allow solo queuing. Everything else is just fluff and usually ends up in arguments like "find friends to queue with" or "L2P" or whatever.

 

All this wouldn't be as bad if you rewards for PVP weren't so far behind other modes and you were not punished for loosing. It is not the solo queuers fault that match making put him/her up against pre made and the match is 99% of the time a loss before it starts.

 

Daily and weekly rewards are terrible compared to GSF and PVE At 306 rating majority of gear rewards out of PVP boxes is 300-304 ?!?! and now further penailized by only wins count.

 

Result? i used to PVP almost every day a few hours across diff toons and now i can often not be bothered at all. I play the game now only a few days week and if it continues then whats the point of keeping the sub running.

[supertimtaf]

This has been here before.

 

There was the discussion of PVP bolster where people complained that PVPers have it hard getting gear and PVE ppl not and they come fully geared into PVP. People demanded bolster for higher gear level. That basically means that a PVPer does not need to farm gear and just que and play for fun.

 

Thats when it was raised that PVP should be easy entry and just pure fun. The thing is that Devs tie other things with PVP like conquest, crafting mats and also fragments for gear. That is the issue with PVP and the rewards, those rewards are mainly for the "other players" who are not really there for PVP.

 

One might think that the issue would be to tie exclusive rewards to PvP, be it in the form of color cristals, cosmetic gear, housing decorations, mounts, emotes... Stuff like that, instead of wanting to incentivize peoples to gear with PvP.

 

Others game did this fine, maybe FF14 at the time is good for this. And PvP there is absolutely terrible, worst thing that exists. But still. Gear doesn't matter here, as they added predefined stats to each class/role, which also prevents skanks-tanks issues like we had before, prevents any player fully geared due to high end PvE from stomping the others... And they have a ton of really good cosmetic/fancy rewards earned with PvP commendations.

 

The game also strongly encourages you to win, with a win simply doubling any reward you get, be it in the form of EXP, pvp commendation, and even high level PvE tokens, and also tying achievements/mounts/titles to earning a certain number of victory depending on the maps. Imagine having an achievement rewarding 100 wins on Alderaan Civil War by giving you a title, then 1000 for a mount. Stuff like this makes peoples keep playing the gamemode, even tho it is utterly trash on that game. And they get better with time, because they need to win to get the "best" rewards of the lot.

 

While I disagree and you shouldn't remove any reward for losing, I believe that implementing rewards which can be earned only by winning a lot, or simply reducing the time you need to farm them by winning could install a more... Positive experience for everybody.

[EllieAnne]

Personally speaking, i play for the win, the rewards are not really enticing to me, but that is just my opinion and i realize not everyone shares it.

 

Ahhhhh, now it comes out. The typical SWTOR player response - everyone should play the way I like to play.

[black_pyros]

-Bob-, I don't post this to attack you or anything, but after reading your posts it seems to me that you want two contrary things without even realizing it.

1st: You want PvP to be it's own reward, up to a point where players should play PvP for PvP itself and get no rewards for it.

2nd: You play for win and want others to play for win, too. You hate, when your teammates aren't trying to win.

 

The questions stands, if PvP needs to be it's own reward, how would you then motivate players to win? Removing rewards completely won't do that. Also removing rewards for losing isn't as good as it sounds, because many players won't play if they get nothing from PvP. Some players do, including me and you but most don't.

 

Remember, in order to be able to play, you need other players to play with/against. You need to motivate them to play. This is done by rewarding them. You just make sure, the rewards for winning are better than for losing to motivate trying to win. But the rewards need to stay, they are key part here.

[EllieAnne]

Some have compared getting a point for losing to getting a participation medal. Let's go with that for a second.

 

In unranked why is it a bad idea to give players a reward for participation?

Why is it wrong to incentivize people to try PvP out?

Why is it that people cannot distinguish between the unranked zones for casual players and the win-at-all-cost culture of ranked where it should be winner take all?

Why do the wannabe Coach Lombardis discuss the doom and gloom of "particiaption medals" in unrank like it is the cause of the Fall of the Western Empire?

I'll say it again - if that's your attitude take it to Ranked.

 

But here is the bottom line - has the removal of participation medals accomplished its goal?

MORE tocixity not less because now if you mess up I just wasted 8 minutes of my life in Huttball.

Less players in unranked because who wants to waste their time being curbstomped by a pro PvP team for nothing?

Longer queue times because see above.

I can't believe BW considers this a success. The question is do they care enough to do anything about it? As of now - no.

[TrixxieTriss]

Some have compared getting a point for losing to getting a participation medal. Let's go with that for a second.

 

In unranked why is it a bad idea to give players a reward for participation?

Why is it wrong to incentivize people to try PvP out?

Why is it that people cannot distinguish between the unranked zones for casual players and the win-at-all-cost culture of ranked where it should be winner take all?

Why do the wannabe Coach Lombardis discuss the doom and gloom of "particiaption medals" in unrank like it is the cause of the Fall of the Western Empire?

I'll say it again - if that's your attitude take it to Ranked.

 

But here is the bottom line - has the removal of participation medals accomplished its goal?

MORE tocixity not less because now if you mess up I just wasted 8 minutes of my life in Huttball.

Less players in unranked because who wants to waste their time being curbstomped by a pro PvP team for nothing?

Longer queue times because see above.

I can't believe BW considers this a success. The question is do they care enough to do anything about it? As of now - no.

 

It all makes sense once you understand that BioWares philosophy and policy is only about ranked players pleasure and participation and they do not care about reg enjoyment / competitiveness or pvp player development.

 

It’s like they think players should automatically be good enough to play ranked the first time they go into pvp. There is no thought on how to help players develop and get better like we had lowbies and mids for.

 

On the flip side there is no skill progression or proper gating to slow or halt players not ready for ranked from entering as soon as they get i306 gear.

 

There is no gear check to see if they have a tactical, the bare minimum of bis stats, a set bonus or even a set bonus that’s active at lvl 75. Point in fact, people who have no business being in ranked sometimes wear old set bonus gear that’s deactivated at lvl 75.

 

There are so many issues with pvp that need fixing, so many in fact that it nearly feels like BioWare should start from scratch and build a system to progressively improve player skill, while having fun.

 

Instead we have a broken arse system that BioWare is trying to hold together wither gaffer tape to please the ranked players because they only care about their participation.

 

Sadly this policy is what’s been driving all pvp into the ground and why players in ranked have issues too.

[supertimtaf]

It all makes sense once you understand that BioWares philosophy and policy is only about ranked players pleasure and participation and they do not care about reg enjoyment / competitiveness or pvp player development.

 

I doubt this is the case as well, seeing how ranked players and reg players were treated until not so recently. I mean, I didn't forgot about 5.X, where we saw like... maybe two seasons in the whole expansion, with each of them being so unfun and unbalanced that it made most pvp veterans simply stop playing after they ended. While some of us stopped regs because it wasn't fun/rewarding anymore, a lot of us also stopped ranked simply because it was also unfun and unbalanced.

Saying that they care about ranked participation numbers is even more of a joke when you note that they added win requirements to be eligible for rewards, which just killed ranked in french and german servers.

 

Or even when looking at ranked rewards, flairs seems to be the same as before, just like we get even less rewards since they began recycling the really old ones.

 

While they may treat Ranked a bit more cautiously, it needs as much love as regs to be the perfect enjoyable experience.

[-Bob-]

-Bob-, I don't post this to attack you or anything, but after reading your posts it seems to me that you want two contrary things without even realizing it.

1st: You want PvP to be it's own reward, up to a point where players should play PvP for PvP itself and get no rewards for it.

Correction, I only suggested it in 1 thread. Not because i want it or think that it is best for the game (which i don't) but people are complaining of losing and not getting a reward when the rewards really aren't that great anyways. Take away the reward and it's 1 less thing to complain about.

 

2nd: You play for win and want others to play for win, too. You hate, when your teammates aren't trying to win.

Who plays PVP and doesn't want to win?

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the player if they join up in a match and lack that competitive nature.

 

The questions stands, if PvP needs to be it's own reward, how would you then motivate players to win? Removing rewards completely won't do that. Also removing rewards for losing isn't as good as it sounds, because many players won't play if they get nothing from PvP. Some players do, including me and you but most don't.

 

Remember, in order to be able to play, you need other players to play with/against. You need to motivate them to play. This is done by rewarding them. You just make sure, the rewards for winning are better than for losing to motivate trying to win. But the rewards need to stay, they are key part here.

 

Well, i don't have an answer as to how to motivate people to win, i dont think there is an answer for that. If someone needs to be motivated to win then maybe a competitive format isn't for them.

The carrot on the stick doesn't encourage the donkey to walk faster or harder or put forth more effort, it only keeps his numb brain moving forward at a mindless pace without any real purpose.

[TrixxieTriss]

The difference is some ranked feedback is listened to by ChrisS, while reg feed back feels totally ignored.

And the only feed back that seems to matter is the feed back he gets from the discord server that only allows people who agree with them.

I see they complain about me and the forums being an eco chamber, but they are no better and possibly worse because its their way or the highway. At least here you can dissent. If you question ChrisS there and you aren’t the “in crowd”, they just boot you because they are so worried he won’t keep participating. So it’s more of an echo chamber of yes men instead of real discussion.

If BioWare had an official discord and participated half as much as they do on the non official one, maybe all player perspectives and feed back would be acknowledged.

[-Bob-]

The difference is some ranked feedback is listened to by ChrisS, while reg feed back feels totally ignored.

And the only feed back that seems to matter is the feed back he gets from the discord server that only allows people who agree with them.

I see they complain about me and the forums being an eco chamber, but they are no better and possibly worse because its their way or the highway. At least here you can dissent. If you question ChrisS there and you aren’t the “in crowd”, they just boot you because they are so worried he won’t keep participating. So it’s more of an echo chamber of yes men instead of real discussion.

If BioWare had an official discord and participated half as much as they do on the non official one, maybe all player perspectives and feed back would be acknowledged.

 

So it's a discord full of Sycophant shot callers?

[black_pyros]

Well, i don't have an answer as to how to motivate people to win, i dont think there is an answer for that.

I have an answer and it's rewards, particularly better rewards for win than for loss.

 

If someone needs to be motivated to win then maybe a competitive format isn't for them.

You can't be serious here, even in real life in competitive sports there are rewards for win. They serve as a motivation to get better. I agree with you that wanting to win is natural but same is wanting to be rewarded for efforts. I don't know how you can understand the first but not the second.

[supertimtaf]

The difference is some ranked feedback is listened to by ChrisS, while reg feed back feels totally ignored.

And the only feed back that seems to matter is the feed back he gets from the discord server that only allows people who agree with them.

 

You're either talking about the "influencer" discord, or another server that I don't know about, both options are really funny, and exactly how I remember things being at the time.

 

To get back on topic, I think we'd all agree that PvP, be it unranked and ranked needs more good rewards, instead of just lazily trying to give us (bad) gear as a form of reward. And losses should give rewards as well, but clearly less than wins, to encourage peoples to get better and not making them ragequit PvP because they can't get anything out of it. As well as balancing the overall game, like better (and more frequent) class balance to avoid "S-tier" specs and "meme-tier" specs, like somebody mentionned in another thread, in order to make the gamemode actually fun (so it could be its own reward as well, to quote "Bob" above).

 

In the end, we just want more fun and more reasons to PvP.

 

Is that the overall consensus, the point where we can mostly agree on everything ?

[EllieAnne]

I'm still doing a little PvP because I have a couple toons close to the weekly and it is frustrating as ... well it's very frustrating. 0-4 with a lot being Premade vs PUG. The last one was Huttball that started out 5 vs 8 and we didn't get completely filled until 3 minutes in where the score was already 3 to 0. But I'm sure -Bob- would say if we just tried a little harder and had better teamwork we would have won.

 

Update 0-5. It was 4 vs 4 where they had 2 healers and we didn't have any. All of them were iRated at 306 and one of our was 256 and one was 273. Bioware do you honestly not see how this is a problem in the new system of winner take all? Do you not realize that casual player simply won't play with this frustration? As soon as the two toon I have left with 5 wins or more to the weekly are done I'm out and I know I'm not the only one. Of course at this rate geting the last 9 wins over these 2 toons may take a couple of months.

Edited January 16, 2021 by EllieAnne

[DariusCalera]

I'm still doing a little PvP because I have a couple toons close to the weekly and it is frustrating as ... well it's very frustrating. 0-4 with a lot being Premade vs PUG. The last one was Huttball that started out 5 vs 8 and we didn't get completely filled until 3 minutes in where the score was already 3 to 0. But I'm sure -Bob- would say if we just tried a little harder and had better teamwork we would have won.

 

I was in the same boat and once I finally finished up my weekly after two weeks I'm not picking it back up. There's not enough of a reward to deal with the aggravation that is PvP right now.

[DavidAtkinson]

Before you start crying to Bioware about their poor decision making, maybe you should take and a deep look at yourselves and realize that these things were added to the game based on your own feedback...

 

Imagine, them making decisions based on what 5 people cry about on daily basis on these forums? If memory serves me right, there was a lot of complaints about quitters in pvp and ppl not caring about wins.

 

Both of these " problems" were heard by Bioware and they came up with the solution : Deserter lock out for quitters and only wins matter if one wants to complete daily weekly... for people to try harder to win.

 

It's what you wanted and you got in the end. Now please live with it and stop complaining.

[EllieAnne]

Before you start crying to Bioware about their poor decision making, maybe you should take and a deep look at yourselves and realize that these things were added to the game based on your own feedback...

 

Imagine, them making decisions based on what 5 people cry about on daily basis on these forums? If memory serves me right, there was a lot of complaints about quitters in pvp and ppl not caring about wins.

 

Both of these " problems" were heard by Bioware and they came up with the solution : Deserter lock out for quitters and only wins matter if one wants to complete daily weekly... for people to try harder to win.

 

It's what you wanted and you got in the end. Now please live with it and stop complaining.

 

 

I never asked for any of that so who are you talking to,

[Enticy]

Before you start crying to Bioware about their poor decision making, maybe you should take and a deep look at yourselves and realize that these things were added to the game based on your own feedback...

 

Imagine, them making decisions based on what 5 people cry about on daily basis on these forums? If memory serves me right, there was a lot of complaints about quitters in pvp and ppl not caring about wins.

 

Both of these " problems" were heard by Bioware and they came up with the solution : Deserter lock out for quitters and only wins matter if one wants to complete daily weekly... for people to try harder to win.

 

It's what you wanted and you got in the end. Now please live with it and stop complaining.

 

So say that you come to me with a toothache, and you’re looking for a solution. I say, “I’ve got it!”, and stab you in the chest. When you complain about it, I say that the stab wound will keep your mind off of the toothache. When you complain further, I say, “Please live with it and stop complaining.”

 

Just because there’s a solution to a problem doesn’t mean it’s a good solution or that we can’t complain it. Yes, my example was a bit hyperbolic, but the point remains unchanged. BioWare gave us these options, we’re giving them feedback on why they don’t work. Clearly, something constructive is happening because we’ve gotten a response.

 

So, to answer your concern, no we won’t stop pointing out the problems in this new system, and if don’t like it, you can go somewhere else.

[DavidAtkinson]

So say that you come to me with a toothache, and you’re looking for a solution. I say, “I’ve got it!”, and stab you in the chest. When you complain about it, I say that the stab wound will keep your mind off of the toothache. When you complain further, I say, “Please live with it and stop complaining.”

 

Just because there’s a solution to a problem doesn’t mean it’s a good solution or that we can’t complain it. Yes, my example was a bit hyperbolic, but the point remains unchanged. BioWare gave us these options, we’re giving them feedback on why they don’t work. Clearly, something constructive is happening because we’ve gotten a response.

 

So, to answer your concern, no we won’t stop pointing out the problems in this new system, and if don’t like it, you can go somewhere else.

 

I don't disagree, but time isn't on our side is it ? It's already been some time since they introduced these horrible lockouts and despite many complaints about how bad they are and pointless, they seem to insist on having them.

 

Here is an example: I am a massive Hutball hater, I despise it so much that I could scream each time I get into one. Before the lockouts, I always left at the start because I didn't want to take part in something I hate and ruin the fun of others who might enjoy that thing.

 

Now I am forced to play it , otherwise 15 minute lock out... Get 2 lagballs in a row and that would be 30 minutes of not queing. Since I am forced to play Hutball, what do I think I do in those games ? The answer should be obvious and that's what many others are doing as well and this has turned Hball into a massive mess of killz and dps farms . People just gank each other ..

 

This was just an example ... there could be many more. And on the good side, getting farmed my premades sometimes is a good thing because at least the game ends fast enough .

Edited January 16, 2021 by DavidAtkinson

[-Bob-]

Before you start crying to Bioware about their poor decision making, maybe you should take and a deep look at yourselves and realize that these things were added to the game based on your own feedback...

 

Imagine, them making decisions based on what 5 people cry about on daily basis on these forums? If memory serves me right, there was a lot of complaints about quitters in pvp and ppl not caring about wins.

 

Both of these " problems" were heard by Bioware and they came up with the solution : Deserter lock out for quitters and only wins matter if one wants to complete daily weekly... for people to try harder to win.

 

It's what you wanted and you got in the end. Now please live with it and stop complaining.

This pretty much sums it up

[Sappharan]

Before you start crying to Bioware about their poor decision making, maybe you should take and a deep look at yourselves and realize that these things were added to the game based on your own feedback...

 

I don't remember ever asking for this. Even if I am wrong, the deserter debuff has solved nothing. The same quantities of people still abandon warzones, but only on pug teams. The premade teams stay, and only then to farm numbers.

 

Imagine, them making decisions based on what 5 people cry about on daily basis on these forums? If memory serves me right, there was a lot of complaints about quitters in pvp and ppl not caring about wins.

 

You're right, but this was the wrong solution. It may have been better at first, but it is so, so much worse now.

 

Pugs often care about winning, premade teams win incidentally, and only after they have protracted our suffering as long as they can.

 

Both of these " problems" were heard by Bioware and they came up with the solution : Deserter lock out for quitters and only wins matter if one wants to complete daily weekly... for people to try harder to win.

 

It's what you wanted and you got in the end. Now please live with it and stop complaining.

 

What we wanted were balanced teams and better matchmaking, i.e. pugs versus pugs or premade teams versus premade teams; or a balanced mix. Bioware's poorly conceived, perfunctory solution of applying a deserter debuff to ALL players who are either removed by poor connections or voluntarily leave has only exacerbated the problems about which people were already complaining. Pugs often don't try to win, and premade teams DEFINITELY don't try to win. I have watched this on live streams, I have HEARD streamers comment on how they don't care, and I have seen it in PvP matches myself.

 

To make it clear:

THEY

JUST

DON'T

CARE

 

Whatever the result, win or lose, they drag it out as long as possible. That is bad for the game because the matches are not even a little bit competitive. People complain about fresh blood in the game, but you're not going to enjoy that when the environment is this hostile. Everyone who agrees with this godawful policy seems to ignore the numbers farmers in premade teams are the real problem. They may not have started as the problem (let's face it, they were always a problem, though not as awful as at present), but they're here now.

 

How do we entice numbers farmers to attempt winning WITHOUT farming? That's what we pay Bioware to solve. An internal elo system integrated with matchmaking would be a start. Return ranked warzones. Let the numbers farmers build their enormous egos in ranked warzones.

 

And, others are right. Remove rewards for both the victors and the defeated.

 

FWIW, I don't mind losing so much, though I far prefer winning. I simply loathe being dogpiled, repeatedly, by a premade team that extends the warzone as long as possible and who only care about the statistics at the end of the match.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Sappharan

[supertimtaf]

I don't disagree, but time isn't on our side is it ? It's already been some time since they introduced these horrible lockouts and despite many complaints about how bad they are and pointless, they seem to insist on having them.

 

Hey you're back too ! Has been a long time, Dave !

 

And it's true that they are taking kind of a long time to even acknowledge that there are issues. But I guess it would take too much time to enumerate each one they made too. Thinking back to Marauders, I like that we've complained so much about Ruthless Aggressor back in the day that they finally nerfed the utility (after three years of complaining mind you, way too late), only to add it back as a set bonus in the form of Force Bound.

 

Even when we give them feedback, they always find a way to purposely ignore it / avoid resolving the issue / Implement another issue while "fixing" the problem.

 

This is why we've asked for so long about a direct way to speak with the developpers, with actual answers/feedback/opinions from both sides before a system is set in place.

 

I'm glad to see that they reopened PTS, but even with that, they still lack the whole communication thing, as well as a sense of priority (like, does the amplifier UI changes were SO IMPORTANT that they had to be put in place before PvP/PvE balance changes, or even refining the gearing/reward system ?)

 

Worst part is that even with Jackie getting hard at work, it seems that we're still stuck with no actual developper input from what we're discussing, no matter how much feedback we may bring to the table. She may be doing good with bringing our discussions to Bioware, but it seems that they don't really want to speak to us on the other end. Or maybe they just don't know what to answer. Now that would be funny.

[EllieAnne]

Wanted to chime in and say the team is paying attention to and monitoring feedback.

 

But will that translate into them doing anything about it? History says no.

 

Oh and I'm 0-12 trying to make my weekly. Very few are competitive like when you (BW) stuck me in a 4 vs 4 where they had a healer and we didn't. Very fair. Why not just save us all time and give them a point and punch us in the face and let us requeue?

 

Is this what Bioware wanted? Frustrated customers? MORE toxicity in WZs? People quitting PvP in droves? Because that's what you got and BW still not caring how it is killing off elements of the game.

Edited January 17, 2021 by EllieAnne