Please get rid of level scaling.

[albeva]

Completely 100% agree with OP.

 

Level sync scaling was one of the worst decisions ever made for this game. It has brought more harm than good. It has all but ruined the very idea of character progression. Nothing ever gets really "easier", you never really feel more powerful despite learning new skills, acquiring new gear, min-maxing it. Nope - go on some planet and you pretty much the same as when you levelled there.

 

Personally I see nothing wrong with high level players being able to one shot low level world bosses and what not. We could because as characters we grew and became powerful, it made sense.

 

Not to mention how it messed up so many aspects of levelling - say how Thanatons level jumps between planets ...

 

It was nothing, but cheap way to introduce "end game content" from existing world bosses and heroics rather than actually implement something new.

Edited February 11, 2021 by albeva

[Fluffometer]

 

...

 

It was nothing, but cheap way to introduce "end game content" from existing world bosses and heroics rather than actually implement something new.

 

Well, yes, very likely. But, and however much I'm not a massive fan of it either, it's still probably a whole lot better than not having it in place if they aren't going to produce content at a reasonable rate.

[xordevoreaux]

Personally I see nothing wrong with high level players being able to one shot low level world bosses and what not. We could because as characters we grew and became powerful, it made sense.

 

Were you playing a single-player game, I'd say knock yourself out. Go for it. One-shot world bosses all day.

 

But you're not. You're playing an MMO. That means your actions affects others. The mindset above that you just described fits perfectly with that of a griefer. Griefers don't give a damn about other players, and their predatory actions make the play environment for everyone else that much more toxic.

 

For example, take a guild, all set to work on getting achievements for their players by killing a world boss, and along comes some moron griefer who one-shots the mob.

 

No thank you.

Edited February 11, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[albeva]

Were you playing a single-player game, I'd say knock yourself out. Go for it. One-shot world bosses all day.

 

But you're not. You're playing an MMO. That means your actions affects others. The mindset above that you just described fits perfectly with that of a griefer. Griefers don't give a damn about other players, and their predatory actions make the play environment for everyone else that much more toxic.

 

For example, take a guild, all set to work on getting achievements for their players by killing a world boss, and along comes some moron griefer who one-shots the mob.

 

No thank you.

Lol. Not everyone was griefing back in the day. In fact it wasn't even a problem - at least not on my server. And frankly there are better ways to deal with such issues than what BW did. This one niche reason does not outweigh the cons.

 

Take WoW for example - really not a big problem there.

[xordevoreaux]

Lol. Not everyone was griefing back in the day. In fact it wasn't even a problem - at least not on my server. And frankly there are better ways to deal with such issues than what BW did. This one niche reason does not outweigh the cons.

 

Take WoW for example - really not a big problem there.

 

Downplaying the possibility, even with such a weak argument, makes the likelihood of griefing in this game by an inordinately higher player no less implausible nor any less likely.

[Kissakias]

Level scaling undermines our entire progress, makes gearing up useless until 75, makes farming all the datacrons useless as the stats don't apply, forces a timesink on players with making content almost impossible to do with how gimped the stats are.

 

I went from level 10 with 4480hp hitting over 150 per hit to level 11 with 2000hp and barely 60 damage per hit.

It turns the game into a chore which is a big reason players are abandoning the game faster than ever.

 

Remove the scaling and you'll see players coming back in droves.

 

Take WoW for example, it's the most successful MMO ever. Never introduced forced level scaling.

 

Players don't like putting in effort, to be made weaker by stupid in game mechanics.

 

It was like that when game started... they add the scaling just because the content they add was so small, that people, didnt have anything to do till next lvl up comes.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Kissakias

[Jesseriah]

Level sync scaling was one of the worst decisions ever made for this game. It has brought more harm than good. It has all but ruined the very idea of character progression.

 

I think level-scaling was one of the best things they did. WoW also has it btw, even if its a little bit different than what we got in SWTOR. Their explanation for giving us level-scaling was to be able to still do quests and other stuff on the planet you're on even if you already overleveled it by a lot, and I'm completely fine with that.

 

Nothing ever gets really "easier", you never really feel more powerful despite learning new skills, acquiring new gear, min-maxing it. Nope - go on some planet and you pretty much the same as when you levelled there.

 

Thats not really true at all. If your character is geared properly then you have a super easy time on mobs/quests of "lower" planets. Besides that I think it really adds some "roleplay flair" to the gameplay. Because for example when your character is a Trooper and while you have done super important and difficult stuff for the galaxy you're still a normal "human beeing" and have to deal with other normal "human beeing stuff".

 

Gameplay wise you might be right about "It's funny to go to a low level dungeon/planet and oneshot everything" like you can do in WoW when farming transmogs in older dungeons/raids, but thats not enjoyable in a roleplay wise perspective. Especially since we have the conquest system where you and your guild go out to different planets and kill conquest commanders together for example.

 

Does SWTOR lack on highlvl content? Yes. But level sync is good in many different aspects imo.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Jesseriah

[ZhukovGK]

Completely 100% agree with OP.

 

Level sync scaling was one of the worst decisions ever made for this game. It has brought more harm than good. It has all but ruined the very idea of character progression. Nothing ever gets really "easier", you never really feel more powerful despite learning new skills, acquiring new gear, min-maxing it. Nope - go on some planet and you pretty much the same as when you levelled there.

 

Personally I see nothing wrong with high level players being able to one shot low level world bosses and what not. We could because as characters we grew and became powerful, it made sense.

 

Not to mention how it messed up so many aspects of levelling - say how Thanatons level jumps between planets ...

 

It was nothing, but cheap way to introduce "end game content" from existing world bosses and heroics rather than actually implement something new.

 

I don't like it either and I believe it was poorly implemented.

 

However, it was put in place to address a problem and so simply advocating its removal is not a real solution.

 

I would keep Level Sync, but adjust it so that gear on the planet you are leveling on remains meaningful. I would also increase the overall difficulty of game content as right now it's just about faceroll easy. This would maintain the RPG staple of character progression while still discouraging griefing behavior.

 

There is a downside to my suggestion.

 

Right now there is very little 'Gear Grind', in SWTOR and for many players that is a real plus. So changes to existing systems should be undertaken with due consideration to all factors.

[casirabit]

Completely 100% agree with OP.

 

Level sync scaling was one of the worst decisions ever made for this game. It has brought more harm than good. It has all but ruined the very idea of character progression. Nothing ever gets really "easier", you never really feel more powerful despite learning new skills, acquiring new gear, min-maxing it. Nope - go on some planet and you pretty much the same as when you levelled there.

 

Personally I see nothing wrong with high level players being able to one shot low level world bosses and what not. We could because as characters we grew and became powerful, it made sense.

 

Not to mention how it messed up so many aspects of levelling - say how Thanatons level jumps between planets ...

 

It was nothing, but cheap way to introduce "end game content" from existing world bosses and heroics rather than actually implement something new.

 

I think it is a good idea especially those in guilds with lower levels. This gives the higher level guild members a way to run things with their lower guild members without it costing the lower ones a reduction in xp points. We tend to run things with some of our lower guild members so this works.

[OlBuzzard]

I think it is a good idea especially those in guilds with lower levels. This gives the higher level guild members a way to run things with their lower guild members without it costing the lower ones a reduction in xp points. We tend to run things with some of our lower guild members so this works.

 

Not only that ... but it might prevent excessive farming of lower level FP's and OPs with maxed out toons.

 

Over all I personally don't have a problem with the "level scaling". Does it need a few "tweaks". Very possibly. Unfortunately I don't possess the proper command of techno-babble skills to be specific as to how or where to make those improvements.

[Phazonfreak]

Lol. Not everyone was griefing back in the day. In fact it wasn't even a problem - at least not on my server. And frankly there are better ways to deal with such issues than what BW did. This one niche reason does not outweigh the cons.

 

This one niche reason is not the only one why level scaling has been implemented. You yourself gave another big reason for the change. The devs are unable to add new content to the game at a steady pace and need the players to be able to do content on all the planets regardless of their character level. This single reason outweighs all the cons.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Phazonfreak

[KendraP]

This one niche reason is not the only one why level scaling has been implemented. You yourself gave another big reason for the change. The devs are unable to add new content to the game at a steady pace and need the players to be able to do content on all the planets regardless of their character level. This single reason outweighs all the cons.

 

Agreed, and just to add that the current planetary system allows you to gain levels even when overlevelled for the planet. And if you enjoy roflstomping, you still can to some extent because they don't take away abilities and certain stats. (Go do starting planets at 75 with BiS gear, if you don't believe me).

 

My only level sync protest is at endgame, where 95% of ostensibly endgame activities are not endgame level. (I.e. downscaled ops and FPs, as I've mentioned one or two hundred times).

Edited February 11, 2021 by KendraP

[Latherfal]

Bioware could create a 'vanilla' server and solve those issues.

[robertthebard]

So after reading this thread initially, and then playing the game, there sure is a lot of misinformation here that needs to be corrected:

 

I did one of the Heroics on Coruscant on a level 21 toon, and on a level 75 toon. Both got drops from the mobs appropriate to their levels, and the end rewards as well were level appropriate.

[EllieAnne]

Lol. Not everyone was griefing back in the day. In fact it wasn't even a problem - at least not on my server. And frankly there are better ways to deal with such issues than what BW did. This one niche reason does not outweigh the cons.

.

 

Yep. I recall very few cases where high levels were griefing lowbies by taking the kills. And I can't get over how people talk about how it made low planets relevant again. Really? How many Belsavis heroics do you run in a week? Are you still doing the Alderaan missions with your level 75s? It's players being apologists for BW/EA not making any new endgame content at the time.

Edited February 12, 2021 by EllieAnne

[robertthebard]

Yep. I recall very few cases where high levels were griefing lowbies by taking the kills. And I can't get over how people talk about how it made low planets relevant again. Really? How many Belsavis heroics do you run in a week? Are you still doing the Alderaan missions with your level 75s? It's players being apologists for BW/EA not making any new endgame content at the time.

 

Ironically, yes, I actually do run these a couple of times a week, or at least once a week for each faction. This is different, because before level scaling, I never went back. I ran the Heroics, if I did, while I was there, and then I was done. Now I have a reason to go there, along with other planets. I will run the Heroics on Voss Pub Side from time to time as well. It's actually worth my time, under the current system, whereas before, it wasn't.

 

Note: I'm staying away from Alderaan this week, because Rakghouls...

[TrixxieTriss]

I'm worried about this, honestly. I'm concerned that, if the rescaling of the uprisings doesn't get enough people to participate in them, BW will simply dismiss us as malcontents that can't be made happy. (To be fair, this assumption is probably not far off in my case. I'm very dissatisfied with my experience in swtor, and with what BWs priorities seem to be more generally). This could (would) lead BW to choose to not raise FP or ops.

 

Because their own confirmation bias would say that people didn’t play uprisings after we upscaled them and so it won’t make people play flash points or operations more if we upscale those.

 

Sort of like how they said no one played objective ranked pvp and that’s why they removed it. But they failed to look at why the numbers had dropped and that people had left the game because preseason was so long and they gave up waiting. They didn’t take into account there were heaps of people ready to come back as soon as it started.

 

I think you have a legitimate reason to be concerned because Bioware have used false confirmation bias so many times in this game instead of reaching out to the player base for actual reasons or answers, they look at a spread sheet to get their answers and not their biggest resource, the players.

[TrixxieTriss]

Ironically, yes, I actually do run these a couple of times a week, or at least once a week for each faction. This is different, because before level scaling, I never went back. I ran the Heroics, if I did, while I was there, and then I was done. Now I have a reason to go there, along with other planets. I will run the Heroics on Voss Pub Side from time to time as well. It's actually worth my time, under the current system, whereas before, it wasn't.

 

Note: I'm staying away from Alderaan this week, because Rakghouls...

 

Actually agree with you here. I regularly do lower lvl heroic content with my lvl 75s. And while some of it is face roll easy, most of it is in instances where it’s actually been balanced better than the open world heroics.

 

At least the rescaling of the main stats feels like I have to put in more effort than I used to a year or so ago. I think 6.0 did increase difficulty level a little bit higher than it was so that the only reason you can feel OP now is if your companions are lvl 50 and you have full min max gear (2ndary stats) with set bonuses and all lvl 75 abilities and utilities.

 

It’s not people at a higher lvl griefing lowbie players. People doing lower lvl heroics are usually doing them for conquest points. Which do include small rampages. That’s why I think some others think higher lvl guys are griefing them because they stay to finish off the rampage before leaving.

 

I’m usually polite with the rampage (depending on the planet) and I’ll quick travel to an area that I know will be away from most other people so I can farm my 25 and then 50 kills. Sadly, the starting planets don’t really have unused areas as much as the higher planets, so it’s these planets I think people get the most upset about and of course the open world heroic areas like Alderaan.

Edited February 12, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Aerilas]

I think you have a legitimate reason to be concerned because Bioware have used false confirmation bias so many times in this game instead of reaching out to the player base for actual reasons or answers, they look at a spread sheet to get their answers and not their biggest resource, the players.

 

100.000 times this.

Recently came back after a 6 year break and have wandered my way through many games since then.

I never realized it back when I used to play but with the added experience of other games' community managers it is beyond ridiculous how awful SWTOR is at communicating with their players.

Absolutely scandalous and 'from another time-period' level bad.

 

Bioware (EA) treats this entire playerbase as if they're the nasty kids they have to babysit and won't take any opinion here seriously. They only feed us what we need to survive, but put intense effort into making it all look pretty through the cartel market.

 

I do realize that numbers and spreadsheet are all that matters for a company such as EA so most decisions do make sense. Most likely the CM team is 5x larger than the actual gameplay team and the community managers are smart bots making standard replies only, never showing a hint of emotion or their own opinion / will never go into a discussion to elaborate their botty replies. One bioware post per thread megarule.

Yes, a lot of people (including this rant I'm typing up) post utter ****, but they are professionals and know their game better than anyone. Or should. They ought to be able to see the truth through the whining.

 

Genuinely. The way this devteam works is archaic as hell.

 

I got wayyyy off topic.

[robertthebard]

Actually agree with you here. I regularly do lower lvl heroic content with my lvl 75s. And while some of it is face roll easy, most of it is in instances where it’s actually been balanced better than the open world heroics.

 

At least the rescaling of the main stats feels like I have to put in more effort than I used to a year or so ago. I think 6.0 did increase difficulty level a little bit higher than it was so that the only reason you can feel OP now is if your companions are lvl 50 and you have full min max gear (2ndary stats) with set bonuses and all lvl 75 abilities and utilities.

 

It’s not people at a higher lvl griefing lowbie players. People doing lower lvl heroics are usually doing them for conquest points. Which do include small rampages. That’s why I think some others think higher lvl guys are griefing them because they stay to finish off the rampage before leaving.

 

I’m usually polite with the rampage (depending on the planet) and I’ll quick travel to an area that I know will be away from most other people so I can farm my 25 and then 50 kills. Sadly, the starting planets don’t really have unused areas as much as the higher planets, so it’s these planets I think people get the most upset about and of course the open world heroic areas like Alderaan.

 

I recall one time that we had a capped sorc farming the Alderaan world boss for Priority Targets. But even with level scaling, we were still able to take them out with a decent 4 player team. The day it went live, we did a 6 man op group on the DK WB, with no healer. So it's not like it made it really hard or anything, just not face roll easy anymore, and I'm good with that.

 

Some planets are better than others for Rampage, which seems to be a regular feature now, at least for the last two weeks. Places like Voss, at least on the Pub side, you can do both stages in one Heroic. It's spread out a bit more for the Imps on Voss, but still easily doable, and for the Imps, they're all instanced. The other thing it allows me to do is help out if someone is struggling with it, w/out killing their xp. So as far as I can tell, it's actually a benefit to have the scaling.

[Spikanor]

Lol. Not everyone was griefing back in the day. In fact it wasn't even a problem - at least not on my server. And frankly there are better ways to deal with such issues than what BW did. This one niche reason does not outweigh the cons.

 

Take WoW for example - really not a big problem there.

 

here is then some things you think like to see again.

 

that people from lvl 75 1 shot kill all the monsters in the area will low lvl players need then for there quest is that funny for you then since that was a mass problem back then and that was not funny a lot off people like me have see it with there own eyes and have feel it that people like then are bully other players.

it was not on normal monsters it was also on heroic's open area place's where there are doing it do you think that was fun if people that are 75 doing stuff like that on a starter planet its not fun.

i am also not a fan off it but have accept it since it has fix a lot off problems with it and its good that there is.

 

if you not like it why you are playing the game still snice there never going to remove it any more.

and if you think with a lots off hate about it there going doing it then your wrong since there was all a big hate about it before it was live on the servers and after a lot off years its still in the game so deal with it.

[xordevoreaux]

What I find interesting about all of these kill level scaling threads is what they have in common, which is they are started by relatively new players. I never see any of the regulars creating these threads. Edited February 12, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[robertthebard]

What I find interesting about all of these kill level scaling threads is what they have in common, which is they are started by relatively new players. I never see any of the regulars creating these threads.

 

I can tell you why:

 

So I'm running a little Jedi Tank Guardian up right now, and I'm level 56, on Voss. I hit the planet at 55. That's about 10 levels over the planet, meaning 0 xp per kill, and no drops. Any gear I'd get from quest completions would be useless to me, except to sell to a vendor. Of course, we could compound this issue by maybe this not being the first planet that a character is playing on that's the same way. Some of us remember those days pretty clearly, and don't want to go back to that situation, preferring instead to get credit for what we're doing, and maybe drop something we may be able to use.

[casirabit]

Yep. I recall very few cases where high levels were griefing lowbies by taking the kills. And I can't get over how people talk about how it made low planets relevant again. Really? How many Belsavis heroics do you run in a week? Are you still doing the Alderaan missions with your level 75s? It's players being apologists for BW/EA not making any new endgame content at the time.

 

I still do heroics actually more so now than before so it would depend on the person. A lot in my guild do the heroics and we tend to go for the harder ones as those are actually in their own instances. We tend to stay away from those without instances so we are not taking those from the players in that level bracket that are doing it with their missions on those.

[Fluffometer]

I still do heroics actually more so now than before so it would depend on the person. A lot in my guild do the heroics and we tend to go for the harder ones as those are actually in their own instances. We tend to stay away from those without instances so we are not taking those from the players in that level bracket that are doing it with their missions on those.

 

Same where possible. When achievement-hunting things like the X number of kills on low-level planets I try to do them at quiet times, because let's face it: even with level-scaling you can pretty-much aggro every mob on the planet and drop an AOE on their heads killing them instantly.