Season 13 and the Future of PvP

[BallisticKaine]

No, just no.

 

That feature would be abused so hard its not even funny.

 

Then I shouldn't be penalized for leaving a match that I got grouped with someone on my ignore list. We can do this round and round all day. What it comes down to is the lockout DOES NOT need to be introduced into unranked due to some of these issues.

[Raansu]

Then I shouldn't be penalized for leaving a match that I got grouped with someone on my ignore list. We can do this round and round all day. What it comes down to is the lockout DOES NOT need to be introduced into unranked due to some of these issues.

 

Why does it matter? You have them on ignore. You cant see them chat and they cant emote at you because it blocks them from doing so. Seems like a really dumb reason to leave a match and frankly if that is the reasoning you probably deserve the lockout.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Raansu

[Sarova]

Can we please get clarification on the following:-

 

If I lm in que for regs for say 5 minutes. Join a war zone pop and I'm a backfill for a leaver. If the game is an obvious loss (4-0 hutball/3 cap nov/3 cap ald). If I decide to not participate and leave, would I get a 15 min deserter punishment?

As it stands YES.

This is why there was so much feedback from us about the deserter buff being a bad idea without provision for certain circumstances (e.g. being able to select which maps/types you want to queue for, being able to leave a wz in the wait time before it starts without penalty, being able to quit immediately if you are backfill for a losing-5-0-huttball-won't-get-any-valor-crap-match).

Why does it matter? You have them on ignore. You cant see them chat and they cant emote at you because it blocks them from doing so. Seems like a really dumb reason to leave a match and frankly if that is the reasoning you probably deserve the lockout.

Aren't the normal ignore rules removed for warzones? I thought they were, meaning people who you thought were safely ignored are able to harass you during warzones. Regardless I can understand why that person would leave a match rather than remain alongside a person who may have made their gaming experience hell.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Sarova

[BallisticKaine]

Why does it matter? You have them on ignore. You cant see them chat and they cant emote at you because it blocks them from doing so. Seems like a really dumb reason to leave a match and frankly if that is the reasoning you probably deserve the lockout.

 

No it doesn't and your way of thinking is flawed. 8v8 is a group oriented game play. Need to communicate with people in order to win. If I ignored them for toxic behavior or lack of participation (which then puts my team at a disadvantage). Get off your high horse and say I deserve the lock out. I know multiple people on SF that leave matches due to just ONE toxic player on there. If they come in and he is on team the leave and so do I. That player is EXTREMELY toxic, have reported them multiple times for it and their lack of participation in matches. I SHOULD NOT BE PENALIZED if I leave a match when grouped with that A-hole.

[Nickodemous]

As far as premades, yada yada, I don't care, personally I can handle losing in PVP.

 

IMO a player ought not be leaving a WZ just because they got blown up by the other team in the very first round. Just because someone starts to lose doesn't mean they ought to jump out the WZ, that's my point here.

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

I have no problem with a 15 min debuff.

 

It ironic though, I would guesstimate that I win about 75% of the time when a player leaves during the very first round.....SHHHHHHH! Back fill can be a teams best friend!

[Raansu]

Aren't the normal ignore rules removed for warzones? I thought they were, meaning people who you thought were safely ignored are able to harass you during warzones. Regardless I can understand why that person would leave a match rather than remain alongside a person who may have made their gaming experience hell.

 

You would be incorrect on that thought. Maybe I just have thick skin, but honestly I've never felt the need to ignore anyone from pvp.

 

No it doesn't and your way of thinking is flawed. 8v8 is a group oriented game play. Need to communicate with people in order to win.

 

Honestly? You really don't need to talk in most reg matches. I can completely ignore chat and follow the flow of a match quite easily. Its not hard to look at the mini map and see if a place is being guarded or not, its not hard to look at your op's grid and see if the person guarded is taking damage or not. Its not hard to notice the shrinking flow of enemies at a point and realize you need to start moving because the enemy team is clearly pushing somewhere else.

 

You can win most wz's with the cooperation of 3-4 good players. 1 "toxic" player off number farming or being useless really isn't going to have that big of an impact.

[Nickodemous]

No it doesn't and your way of thinking is flawed. 8v8 is a group oriented game play. Need to communicate with people in order to win. If I ignored them for toxic behavior or lack of participation (which then puts my team at a disadvantage). Get off your high horse and say I deserve the lock out. I know multiple people on SF that leave matches due to just ONE toxic player on there. If they come in and he is on team the leave and so do I. That player is EXTREMELY toxic, have reported them multiple times for it and their lack of participation in matches. I SHOULD NOT BE PENALIZED if I leave a match when grouped with that A-hole.

 

Pedestal, meet Ballistic. Ballistic, Pedestal.

 

So, what you are actually saying is there are certain people that you don't like and you don't want to play with them. You know matches are random selection? You are wanting the ability to leave matches, without penalty, because YOU have designated a specific player "toxic". Got it, makes perfect sense!

 

Bioware, please do not implement the debuff because some people don't like other people that pvp!

[AntarNyaus]

...First, let’s start by talking about the change that has driven the most discussion: The extension of the Deserter debuff to Unranked for those that leave a match early (coming in patch 6.1.2d).

 

The premise of this change is in-line with our goal of PvP being a fun, fair place to play. When a player leaves a warzone (or afk’s), they are affecting the experience for the other 15 players in the match. This sort of behavior artificially adds friction to the experience, and disproportionately affects the ‘fun’ and ‘fairness’ for everyone else. We will not support this behavior with our systems, but we must ask ourselves why players are motivated to use this type of action?

 

Well, y’all have been very clear and vocal about many of these reasons. So let’s get into it:

-Chris

 

I like the occasional bit of PvP but there is no player collision in SWTOR so I have absolutely despised Huttballs since Beta. I would say upwards of 90% of the time, if I load into a Huttballs arena, I wait until the countdown timer hits zero and then I leave. I would leave as soon as my avatar loads in but then I'd risk jumping right back into the the same Huttballs match when I requeue. It especially pisses me off because I'm usually queueing for GSF and PvP at the same time and getting dumped into Huttballs loses my place in the queue for GSF.

 

If you add a deserter penalty and I am trying to do my unranked daily... well, I'll just stay in the game and treat it like a team death match. I won't bother with the objectives because I will only despise Huttballs more.

 

...We hear you that you would rather choose which maps or modes to play, to avoid the ones you don’t like and play what is the most fun for you. In particular, Odessen Proving Grounds comes up often as one of the least popular modes, in particular in Unranked since it can be difficult to coordinate team play in a random queue situation...

 

So if you’re a player who dislikes one particular mode, particularly if that mode is OPG, why should you be forced to play it?

-Chris

 

Beta players were saying that we should be able to choose what type of PvP match you queue for in Beta at least as far back as Summer 2011. Sooo... you're 9 years late to the party on this one but better late than never I suppose. I would rather play 100 losing matches in OPG than even 1 winning match in Huttballs.

 

...Longer term, we agree that a welcomed and healthy addition to the game would be the ability to choose which match types and/or maps you want or do not want to play. As with any new feature, this requires investigation and an assessment of the scope of work before we can commit to a timeframe, however that work has already begun. We are committed to this feature and will update y’all with more information, especially on timing, when we have it.

-Chris

 

The time frame is, it's already 9 years late. So I hope it's soon. And it if deserter penalties get added before this, I'll probably just take a break from SWTOR until either they are removed or until you can choose which modes you queue for so I never have to see another Huttballs arena again.

[KendraP]

Pedestal, meet Ballistic. Ballistic, Pedestal.

 

So, what you are actually saying is there are certain people that you don't like and you don't want to play with them. You know matches are random selection? You are wanting the ability to leave matches, without penalty, because YOU have designated a specific player "toxic". Got it, makes perfect sense!

 

Bioware, please do not implement the debuff because some people don't like other people that pvp!

 

My issues with the debuff are twofold

 

1. I have no way of eliminating the possibility of getting, say queshball, unlike in FPs where you can select as many or few as you so desire. Supposedly they are now "investigating" solving this problem.

 

2. Backfilling into an obvious loss. if it's a triple capped alderaan where the losing team is kamikaze-ing into mid just to wait out the timer, someone quit, and so i got stuck in the disaster... why should I be stuck with this? I'm honestly not sure how FPs work on this front. i.e. if you've wound up in a blood hunt fail group that has wiped repeatedly, and you backfill into this group, what would the penalty be for leaving? i've always taken long enough to determine the FP will fail that i've never had a lockout when leaving. i.e. FPs don't have a scoreboard, so I have no idea how many times the group has tried a particular boss, or what they are failing at, until I actually participate. In a triple capped alderaan (4-0 huttball/whatever) it's obvious backfilling in that it's a total waste of time. So why should I waste my time, especially with them disincentiving losses? (or, if I don't get anything for a loss, and backfill into an obvious loss, why would I wait it out)?

[varietasplus]

This is a very important topic, so I resubbed just to put my two cents in.

 

What we’re doing about it: In the short term, in the upcoming patch 6.1.2d, we will remove the Vandin and Quesh Huttball maps from rotation until we can solve the performance issues with those particular maps.

 

So, these maps are never coming back, good riddance for Quesh. FYI, Quest is bugged as well. You can throw the ball up to the top floor corner from the bottom. Also, JK/SW can not leap on(to) the top floor, whereas every other class has their gap closers available. That is not right.

 

Also, you have to add gravity to the operative-roll. It is absurd that once an operative reaches top platform in vanilla HB, they are untouchable, because they roll over the gap and trap diagonally. If an operative tries to roll over a gap, they should immediately fall down. Furthermore, operative roll causes dsync in vanilla HB as well, so you need to fix that too.

 

 

We hear you that you would rather choose which maps or modes to play, to avoid the ones you don’t like and play what is the most fun for you. In particular, Odessen Proving Grounds comes up often as one of the least popular modes, in particular in Unranked since it can be difficult to coordinate team play in a random queue situation.

 

This is false conclusion. People dislike OPG because most players don't play objectives in general. There are two reasons for that. First, there is not enough incentive to win. Second, most players are bad, they lack the skill and overall knowledge of the game to be effective. The only way they find joy in the game is to move in herdes (groups) and global the few in the enemy lines trying to play objectives. Since they are bads, they would never enter SR. There are training dummy heroes as well, who polish their egos with the dps sum table. They usually have a pocket healer and fight at the middle of the map, whereas the rest of their team is on the move (not fighting) to complete objectives.

 

What you need to do: increase reward gap for win/lose, remove the dps chart, display medals only. In the meantime, put 4 dps - 4 dps unranked arenas in a separate queue (2 dps - healer - tank is taking too long for these kind of players). This would be a win - win situation. Good players pick SR, casuals/mediocre/bads go for unranked arena, objective-orientated players play warzones.

 

 

So let’s talk a bit about the map rotation. Currently, and for some time now, we favor map variety over match type variety.

 

Unranked arenas need to be in separate queue, that is the worst game experience SWTOR has to offer. You can not force players to do it. Instant leave for me. FYI I do play SR.

 

I would definitely keep NC among CW and Yavin. You do need to add quickly another assault type map (VS) to the Void Star bracket though. Also, assault has much more possibilites than you implemented in VS.

 

Reducing the pop rate for OPG is one of the stupidest idea you have come up with in 10 years. Odessen Proving Ground is the best PVP type any game has the offer (along with vanilla HB) and now you would sentence it to scarcity owing to dumb players.

 

Also, you approach this problem terribly: it does not matter how often a map pops that you dislike, you are going to leave or ignore objectives anyway. The only reasonable solution is to let every player to deselect the maps they do not wish to play. The more they dislike, the longer they wait, everyone has to make their call what is more important. There are many objective-orientated players, reducing pop rate for OPG (and indirectly HB) will drive them away.

 

I am against the map voting system for it would very likely result in zero OPG or HB mathes with the current PVP community (unless you have to chose from OPG or HB). A number farmer or a noob would never choose these warzones over a domination type. Honestly, I don't understand all you people forcing more NC/Yavin/CW. It is far more difficult to turn the tides of war on these maps (Yavin being the easiest), most of the times it is mindless smash at mid. If all you want to do is fight, why not play SR?

 

 

So if you’re a player who dislikes one particular mode, particularly if that mode is OPG, why should you be forced to play it?

 

This is a serious contradiction: you can not promote deserter debuff and say "why should you be forced to play it?" at the same time. Once again, you are about to implement a change no one has asked you to and make things worse. I don't mind anyone leaving the warzone before the match starts. On the contrary, I am glad they leave a map they won't contribute to. I leave Ancient Hypergate the very moment I see it. Are you going to punish me for that? Instant uninstall. My teammates don't give a f*ck about objectives? I leave immediately. You can not force me to withstand ignorance and/or stupidity. Also, it does not hurt anyone's game experience if I leave for they will not even notice while they are fighting relentlessly at mid ... not to mention they get instant refill. If you insist on deserter debuff, PVP community will sink in a month to unrecoverable depths.

 

 

Finally, about premades: a returning, contradicting topic. You are approaching the problem from the wrong direction: your totally justified grudge is against number farming guilds, not the premade function. To address this issue, I can only repeat myself: increase reward gap for win/lose, remove the dps chart, display medals only. Create a 4 DPS arena playground for them. Eliminate all incentive for number farmers to join warzones.

 

This is an MMO: asking for excluding or restricting premades is a contradiction as well. With all these bads/number farmers around, I prefer playing with my guildies I can trust. I know they will call / respond to calls, they are going to form the line in HB and position in OPG. Having 2 or 3 of them in your team provides a totally different game experience. With pugs, it is more like frustration for an objective-driven player. So stop this non-sense of restricting premades by any means. Join a PVP guild instead.

Edited July 18, 2020 by varietasplus

[Pallais]

Just as a tangential question, I'm assuming the M1-4X / Major Pierce Alliance Alert will still have Warzone participation as part of the quest? Some PvE folks are worried that it will be changed to requiring 20 wins instead of the 20 losses or 10 wins it currently has. (Not everyone likes doing PvP, but they really want that companion.)

 

The reason I'm asking is that it can be too easy to change all PvP quests to wins without realizing some of them shouldn't be changed.

[Pallais]

I have no problem with the deserter debuff. I'm used to it in other MMOs and it has been a net positive. Yes, some folks will still leave -- someone always will -- but it stops the "I only want wins" crowd from bailing all the time and that's a good thing.

 

For those against the deserter debuff, you do realize that you're amusing as you make yourself look like a serial, frequent leaver? ^_^ Saying that the deserter debuff is wrong because it affects your play, is a bad argument. Warzones are a group activity. Choosing to desert affects everyone else in the Warzone. They can just as legitimately complain about you affecting their play. When you've chosen to do a group activity you've implicitly stated your willing to work towards a group goal. If you abandon that (tiny) social contract then there's a minor consequence. Life is like that.

 

Is it fun to be backfilled into a losing game? Nope, but not every match is a win. That's part and parcel of all group activities, not just PvE. Do you bail if you die on trash or wipe on a Boss in PvE content? Most of us don't. We pick ourselves up and keep going. That's what you do in group content. I would also point out that if more people stay in a match because of the debuff there's less chance you'll be backfilling a match. Thus the deserter debuff is likely to help in that situation.

 

I do agree that being able to block maps you don't like is a good idea. The problem with that is we're likely to increase our queue times using it. People playing all of the maps will get a match faster than those those only want a certain set.

[varietasplus]

Warzones are a group activity. Choosing to desert affects everyone else in the Warzone. They can just as legitimately complain about you affecting their play. When you've chosen to do a group activity you've implicitly stated your willing to work towards a group goal. If you abandon that (tiny) social contract then there's a minor consequence. Life is like that.

 

You are contradicting yourself or not listening. You are talking about group goal and social contract: exactly when was that social contract transitioned from playing objectives to mindless killing at mid? In my oppinion, I have every right to leave the very moment I realize my team ignores objectives and play solely for their own amusement. And no, they would not notice I left for I would not engage in their pointless deathmatch anyway. - An objective-orientated, therefore "frequent" deserter.

Edited July 18, 2020 by varietasplus

[bladech]

I like the occasional bit of PvP but there is no player collision in SWTOR so I have absolutely despised Huttballs since Beta. I would say upwards of 90% of the time, if I load into a Huttballs arena, I wait until the countdown timer hits zero and then I leave. I would leave as soon as my avatar loads in but then I'd risk jumping right back into the the same Huttballs match when I requeue. It especially pisses me off because I'm usually queueing for GSF and PvP at the same time and getting dumped into Huttballs loses my place in the queue for GSF.

 

If you add a deserter penalty and I am trying to do my unranked daily... well, I'll just stay in the game and treat it like a team death match. I won't bother with the objectives because I will only despise Huttballs more.

 

 

 

Beta players were saying that we should be able to choose what type of PvP match you queue for in Beta at least as far back as Summer 2011. Sooo... you're 9 years late to the party on this one but better late than never I suppose. I would rather play 100 losing matches in OPG than even 1 winning match in Huttballs.

 

 

 

The time frame is, it's already 9 years late. So I hope it's soon. And it if deserter penalties get added before this, I'll probably just take a break from SWTOR until either they are removed or until you can choose which modes you queue for so I never have to see another Huttballs arena again.

 

You pointed out an interesting thing that if players are forced to stay in match which they dislike due to deserter they will simply go for death match/kills farming. I will do exactly the same just because iam forced to stay in trashball match without chance of leaving and re-queue. I wont tolerate any forcing actions from dev's side who are willing to force me playing disgusting huttball, i (and other players who doesn't want to stay) will simply go for death match and ruin match for those who actually tries to win it. This only proves that deserter will only make things worse because it will bring more death matches/kill farming to unranked than we had before. Dev's must not extend deserter to unranked or they will cause even worse game experience than before

[TrixxieTriss]

You pointed out an interesting thing that if players are forced to stay in match which they dislike due to deserter they will simply go for death match/kills farming. I will do exactly the same just because iam forced to stay in trashball match without chance of leaving and re-queue. I wont tolerate any forcing actions from dev's side who are willing to force me playing disgusting huttball, i (and other players who doesn't want to stay) will simply go for death match and ruin match for those who actually tries to win it. This only proves that deserter will only make things worse because it will bring more death matches/kill farming to unranked than we had before. Dev's must not extend deserter to unranked or they will cause even worse game experience than before

 

Those are good points and something I’d not considered. This lock out might have more consequences than they recognise and will snow ball the degrading quality of reg pvp even faster.

[Pallais]

You are contradicting yourself or not listening. You are talking about group goal and social contract: exactly when was that social contract transitioned from playing objectives to mindless killing at mid? In my oppinion, I have every right to leave the very moment I realize my team ignores objectives and play solely for their own amusement. And no, they would not notice I left for I would not engage in their pointless deathmatch anyway. - An objective-orientated, therefore "frequent" deserter.

 

What do you view as the contradiction? Given I've read all the posts, saying I'm not listening is just "ad hominen". You can listen and still disagree.

 

As I pointed out, not every match is a win. Losing is a part of PvP. No, none of us like losing, but it happens and you just move on to the next match. If solo queuing really bothers you enough that you;re leaving all the time, then perhaps building or joining a static pre-made where everyone s focused on the type of PvP experience you seek.

[Pallais]

You pointed out an interesting thing that if players are forced to stay in match which they dislike due to deserter they will simply go for death match/kills farming. I will do exactly the same just because iam forced to stay in trashball match without chance of leaving and re-queue. I wont tolerate any forcing actions from dev's side who are willing to force me playing disgusting huttball, i (and other players who doesn't want to stay) will simply go for death match and ruin match for those who actually tries to win it. This only proves that deserter will only make things worse because it will bring more death matches/kill farming to unranked than we had before. Dev's must not extend deserter to unranked or they will cause even worse game experience than before

 

Please, no one is "forcing" you to stay. You can leave and then re-queue in a bit. It's not like the deserter debuff is a massive "L" hanging over your character's head. You would likely take a break anyways since you wouldn't want to backfill into the very map you were just in. (I've seen people do that in the past, though this might not happen in the 6.0 era.)

[varietasplus]

What do you view as the contradiction? Given I've read all the posts, saying I'm not listening is just "ad hominen". You can listen and still disagree.

 

As I pointed out, not every match is a win. Losing is a part of PvP. No, none of us like losing, but it happens and you just move on to the next match. If solo queuing really bothers you enough that you;re leaving all the time, then perhaps building or joining a static pre-made where everyone s focused on the type of PvP experience you seek.

 

I don't mind losing if my team is putting up a good fight. On the other hand, I am not wasting my time on a team that does not even try. I prefer playing in premade, but I don't mind composition as long as my group members play objectives. Shame that I can only expect that only from my guildies.

[Evolixe]

Is it fun to be backfilled into a losing game? Nope

 

Only if the odds are massively overwhelming. I personally view any backfill as a challenge to turn it around

 

Then again, the odds of me adding more value than the person I'm backfilling for are *ahem* rather large

Edited July 19, 2020 by Evolixe

[TrixxieTriss]

Please, no one is "forcing" you to stay. You can leave and then re-queue in a bit. It's not like the deserter debuff is a massive "L" hanging over your character's head. You would likely take a break anyways since you wouldn't want to backfill into the very map you were just in. (I've seen people do that in the past, though this might not happen in the 6.0 era.)

 

You don’t (or shouldnt be unless it’s a bug) backfilling into maps you leave anymore . This was fixed after 6.0 launched. Since then I’ve never back filled into any Ive left and this has been tested when we have low queue numbers and games aren’t back filling while we are requeued.

 

A 15min debuff means some people will log off or stop queuing pvp. We already have low queue pops 3/4 of the day, especially in lowbie or mid pvp. I really hope they don’t add this 15 min lock out to lowbie pvp or it will never pop.

Edited July 19, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[DavidAtkinson]

You don’t (or shouldnt be unless it’s a bug) backfilling into maps you leave anymore . This was fixed after 6.0 launched. Since then I’ve never back filled into any Ive left and this has been tested when we have low queue numbers and games aren’t back filling while we are requeued.

 

A 15min debuff means some people will log off or stop queuing pvp. We already have low queue pops 3/4 of the day, especially in lowbie or mid pvp. I really hope they don’t add this 15 min lock out to lowbie pvp or it will never pop.

 

Low pops in midbie and lowbie happen because there is NO reason to play them anymore, unlike 4.0 era.

[TrixxieTriss]

Low pops in midbie and lowbie happen because there is NO reason to play them anymore, unlike 4.0 era.

 

I totally understand the reasoning, I’ve been preaching it and asking Bioware to fix it since 5.0 was launched.

But if they add the 15 min lock out, it will never pop.

[Pallais]

You don’t (or shouldnt be unless it’s a bug) backfilling into maps you leave anymore . This was fixed after 6.0 launched. Since then I’ve never back filled into any Ive left and this has been tested when we have low queue numbers and games aren’t back filling while we are requeued.

 

A 15min debuff means some people will log off or stop queuing pvp. We already have low queue pops 3/4 of the day, especially in lowbie or mid pvp. I really hope they don’t add this 15 min lock out to lowbie pvp or it will never pop.

 

Thanks for the information!

 

The deal about the deserter debuff is that folks will get used to it being there. When someone leaves they typically do other things until they can requeue. 15 minutes isn't that long. I mean, if someone queues, gets a match, drops early in the match (why drop late?) and then logs off because of the debuff probably didn't have the time to do a PvP match anyway.

 

There's also an argument that the deserter debuff might actually boost lowbie matches. More people might queue if they feel like part of their team isn't going to immediately bail if they fall behind in the scoring.

[bladech]

Please, no one is "forcing" you to stay. You can leave and then re-queue in a bit. It's not like the deserter debuff is a massive "L" hanging over your character's head. You would likely take a break anyways since you wouldn't want to backfill into the very map you were just in. (I've seen people do that in the past, though this might not happen in the 6.0 era.)

 

Of Course they do forcing me to stay. Waiting 15 min. for next match? No way, Iam just going for full fun death match if i get into huttball or against full-elitist premade. I will farm as many kills and dps i can to have my satisfaction over dev's incompetence. If someone will ask me "why you ignore objectives?" I will tell them that Iam forced to play this map by devs so i have no choice but to ruin their negligent ways to force me playing what i dislike.

[omaan]

Of Course they do forcing me to stay. Waiting 15 min. for next match? No way, Iam just going for full fun death match if i get into huttball or against full-elitist premade. I will farm as many kills and dps i can to have my satisfaction over dev's incompetence. If someone will ask me "why you ignore objectives?" I will tell them that Iam forced to play this map by devs so i have no choice but to ruin their negligent ways to force me playing what i dislike.

 

I will do even worse - to end up the match iam forced by devs i will help the enemy team to win fast. I will take the ball and bring it to gates of my own team. Then i will pass it to enemy players so that enemies could score up 6/0 faster and i could end this garbage match faster in order to proceed to a normal map. Devs think they can force us to play stinky, glitched maps but they will soon feel all consequences of their dumb policy.

Edited July 19, 2020 by omaan